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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-01-25

---Logopened Sat Jan 25 00:00:44 2014
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00:43<andythenorth>bonsoir
00:43<andythenorth>Pikka so got any more cookies?
00:43<Pikka>yes
00:43<andythenorth>linky?
00:44<Pikka>give me an hour or two?
00:44<Pikka>if you want a grf :)
00:44<andythenorth>ho ho
00:45<Pikka>there's one up at the moment, but I've fixed the sprite offsets, amongst other things, since I uploaded that one, so I'll get you a fixed one. :P I want to get this vehicle I'm working on at the moment in first though.
00:48<andythenorth>herp offsets
00:49*andythenorth has been avoiding fixing all the offsets in IH
00:51<Pikka>I made a vehicle which was just a footprint
00:51<Pikka>then turned on the bounding boxes in openttd, and shifted the footprint vehicle sprite so it fit. :P
00:52<Pikka>simples
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01:01<Pikka>then, of course, the trick is to have drawn all your sprites to the same template, so you can use the same offsets for all of them. :P
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01:21<andythenorth>Pikka: also pro tip: don't tweak all your offsets, then rebuild the set to use 10/8 length, and every 'vehicle' is an articulated 3-unit vehicle with the sprites on the middle unit :P
01:21<Pikka>yes, well
01:21<Pikka>omit "tweak all your offsets, then" ;)
01:33<andythenorth>oh dear
01:33<andythenorth>I've written code that crashes python hard
01:33<andythenorth>never managed that before
01:33<andythenorth>'achievement unlocked'
01:35<Flygon>I once made an emulator BSoD Windows.
01:35<Flygon>Never trust Flygon's 68k ASM.
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01:51<Pikka>andythenorth, here's something of a cookie: http://i.imgur.com/GN1GH28.png
01:52<Pikka>I'm working on the steam-era passenger coach atm, might not get it finished before I have to go out to dins
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01:57<andythenorth>Pikka: nice steamies
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01:58*andythenorth bbl
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03:59<LSky>morning
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05:40<Wolf01>hello o/
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05:56<LSky>if im running into a 'could not load savegame' error whilst trying to connect to my recently compiled server with a recently compiled patch, is that a server or a client issue?
05:57<LSky>I found this: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=794769#p794769
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05:58<@Rubidium>it's a patch issue I'd say
05:59<LSky>so its not a permissions issue?
06:00<LSky>ah
06:01<LSky>wait, is it because I compile my client --witouth-lzma ?
06:02<@peter1138>if you're trying to load an lzma compressed game, yes
06:02<LSky>hm
06:02<@peter1138>(this may or may not include the intro game)
06:02-!-Xhadius [~oftc-webi@84.19.165.215] has joined #openttd
06:03<LSky>ive followed the MinGW wiki instructions, but I always am unable to compile when not using --without-lzma, apparently thats missing even though I installed all the mentioned libraries
06:04<Xhadius>Hello. Anyone here whou could help me to setup an 1.3.3 TTD-Server? When I use the official repository, I only receive the server 1.1.4
06:06<@peter1138>https://www.openttd.org/en/download-stable
06:07<Xhadius>Is there any step by step for this?
06:07<Xhadius>I'm currently failing kind of
06:07<@peter1138>Er... download package... install it...
06:08<@peter1138>Although if you're only getting 1.1.4 then probably your distribution isn't in the list, so you may want to download the generic binaries, untar that and just run it where it is.
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06:09<Xhadius>found my mistake now... thanks anyways :D
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06:13<Xhadius>Error: Failed to find a graphics set. Please acquire a graphics set for OpenTTD. See section 4.1 of readme.txt.
06:14<LordAro>have you looked at section 4.1 of readme.txt?
06:14<Xhadius>Whenever I find the readme...
06:14<Xhadius>oh, found
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06:20<@peter1138>:-)
06:23<LSky>strange, I downloaded xz again, but its still complaining about liblzma missing
06:24<Eddi|zuHause>did you also install xz-devel?
06:24<@peter1138>is that related to liblzma?
06:25<LSky>the wiki doesnt mention that
06:25<LSky>so Im guessing no
06:25<LSky>I followed this;
06:25<LSky>http://wiki.openttd.org/Compiling_on_Windows_using_MinGW#Compiling_xz
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>"xz" is an alternate name for "lzma2"
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06:27<Eddi|zuHause>LSky: so did you make sure it's actually there (in /usr/lib or /usr/local/lib usually)
06:29<LSky>im not entirely sure where im supposed to be looking for it
06:29<LSky>i have no /usr/lib or /usr/local/lib folder
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06:59<@peter1138>so...
07:00<adf88>Hi people
07:00<adf88>I have few small patches
07:00<adf88>you may be interested in
07:00<adf88>they are about "diagonal" tile areas - calculating, iterating...
07:00<adf88>https://www.dropbox.com/sh/roi22czmui5vieb/ZlMBnYGckK
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07:00<adf88>00-optimise-diagonal-highlight-dirty.diff
07:00<adf88>I found that "diagonal" tile selection has significant impact on performance
07:00<adf88>I even managed to freeze my OpenTTD for few seconds while selecting very large area
07:00<adf88>the cause lies in SetSelectionTilesDirty
07:00<adf88>it iterates all the tiles to call MarkTileDirtyByTile on them
07:00<adf88>this is inefficient
07:00<adf88>I suggest to replace this loop with a single MarkAllViewportsDirty call
07:00<adf88>see the patch for details, everything is explained in comments
07:03<adf88>01-diagonal-coordinate-system.diff
07:03<adf88>OpenTTD use "diagonal" coordinates in some places
07:03<adf88>DiagonalTileIterator, diagonal tile selection etc.
07:03<adf88>this patch formalizes this coordinate system
07:03<adf88>by providing functions to convert coordinates
07:03<adf88>and documenting the way they works
07:03<adf88>see the patch for details
07:05<adf88>------------
07:05<adf88>02-fix-diagonal-convert-tunnelbridge.diff
07:05<adf88>this fixes the FS#5866 bug
07:05<adf88>in CmdConvertRail there is a test: "If both ends of tunnel/bridge are in the range, do not try to convert twice it would cause assert because of different test and exec runs"
07:05<adf88>this test is performed always "orthogonally"
07:05<adf88>dispite of whether the selection is actually orthogonal
07:05<adf88>thus when selection is digonal, resuts are wrong
07:05<adf88>the patch fixes it (using new functions from the previous patch)
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07:08<adf88>-----------
07:08<adf88>03-use-new-funcs-in-diag-tile-heighlight.diff
07:08<adf88>04-use-new-funcs-in-diag-tile-iter.diff
07:08<adf88>these patches make use of the new coordinate conversion functions
07:09<adf88>------
07:09<adf88>05-simplify-diag-tile-iter.diff
07:09<adf88>DiagonalTileIterator is soooo bizarre inside, especially the operator++
07:09<adf88>the patch greatly simplifies it
07:10<adf88>That's all!
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07:13<Pikka>so what, peter1138?
07:15<Pikka>this looks like a job for the forums, rather than here, adf88 :)
07:19<adf88>well... these are patches about OpenTTD internals, bug fixes, code simplification etc.
07:19<adf88>no new features
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07:21<Eddi|zuHause>adf88: generally anything taking more than 3 lines is not really a chat might not be the right place :)
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07:35<@planetmaker>adf88, for my understanding: the patch you posted in FS#5866 can stand on its own?
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07:51<adf88>yes
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08:38<V453000>feature request: bribe the local investigator
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08:55<andythenorth>ho ho
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08:59<Pinkbeast>Bribe a local farmer to keep putting fields on top of trees, it's cheaper. :-)
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09:04<Eddi|zuHause>and then you have to buy the fields back from him as well :p
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes the game is a bit schitzophrenic
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>they count every single tree as if they were holy, but blocking farmland has no consquences whatsoever
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09:08<Pinkbeast>At the point I've got the money to bribe an authority, I'll gladly buy back every inch of farmland to plant trees on it. :-)
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09:11<efess>are there any noticeable performance benefits to running 64 bit openttd over 32 bit?
09:12<andythenorth>so how do I debug a python script that crashes python hard
09:13<andythenorth>specifically, it crashes the error reporting...
09:15<andythenorth>hmm
09:15<andythenorth>adding a timeout stops it crashing hard
09:15<andythenorth>but still...
09:16<andythenorth>http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=PcqFYAGu
09:18<@planetmaker>efess, there aren't. On the contrary
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09:20<andythenorth>hmm, if I can't read errors from multiprocessing jobs, that's too much of a black box
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>each thread has a stack trace
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>but all this stuff is precisely why i pickled stuff
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>then i don't have to deal with python threading
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>i just say "make -j6"
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>or -j12 if i feel like it
09:28<Pikka>andythenorth: when I get to industries, I'm happy to share resources ;)
09:28<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: where are you pickling?
09:29<andythenorth>I could do without python MP here, it's a 25% speed boost, but we're talking 12s instead of 16s
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>in scripts/img.py
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>basically in my generator process i construct pixa shapes, which i pickle, then in every image-processing step i unpickle this pixa shape and render the image
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>everything that pixa needs is in the pickle
09:34<Pikka>sounds perplexing
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>it's perplexingly simple
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09:39<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that is perplexingly simple :)
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09:40<andythenorth>wonder if I could use the same for templating :P
09:40<andythenorth>probably not
09:40<andythenorth>everything is interconnected :P
09:41<@planetmaker>Pikka, you making 32bpp sprites for FIRS? :)
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09:41<@planetmaker>hello everyone also
09:41<Pikka>:)
09:41<Pikka>did I say that?
09:41<andythenorth>he said share resources
09:41<@planetmaker>no, I hear grass growing
09:41<andythenorth>I make the sprites, he uses them :)
09:42<Pikka>that too
09:43<Pikka>but right now I think I shall bedward
09:43<Pikka>gnight etc
09:43<@planetmaker>g'night, Pikka
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09:49<andythenorth>hmm
09:49<andythenorth>random triggers
09:50<andythenorth>how do they work? o_O
09:50*andythenorth wikis
09:53<andythenorth>oh that was easy
09:53<andythenorth>nml docs ftw
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10:26<@peter1138>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYltdonj2iE
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10:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: important thing to remember about triggers is: don't put them into callbacks
10:54<andythenorth>because...?
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>because they are never triggered then
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10:55<Eddi|zuHause>gtg
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11:02<andythenorth>herp
11:02<andythenorth>how to zip dicts together in a single line? :P
11:03<andythenorth>dict.update()
11:03<andythenorth>how rare
11:11<Xaroth|Work>dict(a.items() + b.items())
11:11<Xaroth|Work>or actually
11:11<Xaroth|Work>dict(list(a.items()) + list(b.items()))
11:11<Xaroth|Work>since py3k .items() yields a generator
11:12<Xaroth|Work>or z = a.copy() ; z.update(b)
11:18<andythenorth>ah, the world of shame that is utils.py in every successful project
11:18<andythenorth>:P
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11:25<andythenorth>pikka has ruined 8bpp for me :P
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11:29<@planetmaker>hm, andy
11:29<@planetmaker>gotta change drawing style?
11:33<efess>I'm getting an Error 1 from make while making some changes, how do you enable verbose output?
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11:38<andythenorth>planetmaker: feeling like it :P
11:38<andythenorth>although it's too big as a project :)
11:38<andythenorth>no going to happen
11:39<@Alberth>efess: usually there is a V = @ like rule that you can override or change
11:39<andythenorth>lo Alberth
11:39<@Alberth>hi hi andythenorth, planetmaker
11:39<@planetmaker>hihi
11:41<@planetmaker>andythenorth, did pikka provide more than trains (did I miss that?)
11:41<andythenorth>planetmaker: no not yet
11:42<efess>Alberth: I see ifdef VERBOSE in the Makefile.in file, does this mean run configure with VERBOSE=1?
11:42<@planetmaker>honestly I think they looked too clean still. The 8bpp stuff looks more used :)
11:42<@planetmaker>efess, usually make output gives slightly more feedback than just error 1
11:42<@planetmaker>in the lines preceeding that
11:42<@planetmaker>and make _V= will make it more verbose
11:42<@planetmaker>without reconfigure
11:43<@Alberth>efess: Since it's in Makefile.in, VERBOSE is used at "make" time
11:43<efess>AH
11:44<@Alberth>./configure basically copies *.in modifies them a bit, and outputs the files again without .in
11:44<efess>planetmaker: 'make output' command doesn't do anything useful, unless I don't understand
11:44<@planetmaker>ehm :)
11:44<@planetmaker>yes
11:45<@planetmaker>I mean the stuff make prints on command line without any parameter given at all
11:45<@Alberth>what planetmaker meant is that 'make' produces more output than one line "error 1"
11:45<efess>right
11:45<@planetmaker>there's even in normal mode ^^
11:46<@planetmaker>you need to look at the last lines prior to the error. How many depends on how much parallel make you have running
11:46<efess>Should only be one
11:46<@Alberth>the actual command-lines being executed are often very long, you want to avoid looking at them :p
11:46<efess>not using the Jobs param
11:46<@planetmaker>so what's your actual output? (use a paste service)
11:47<@planetmaker>and paste the last 20 lines
11:47<@planetmaker>or something like that
11:47<efess>Here's the last few lines
11:47<efess>http://pastebin.com/aeU0LxJL
11:48<@planetmaker>eh... can you give the output without the verbose stuff?
11:48<@planetmaker>and that's only 5 lines
11:48<@planetmaker>and possibly give all output
11:49<efess>I figure the last g++ command compiling the unix.cpp file gives the error, but I can run it fine.
11:50<efess>http://pastebin.com/3ZUsryJz
11:50<efess>that's entire output w/o VERBOSE
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11:52<@planetmaker>strange
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11:52<@planetmaker>what system do you compile on?
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11:52<efess>gnu/linux
11:53<@planetmaker>I guessed so much...
11:53<efess>it compiles fine in mingw
11:53<@planetmaker>yeah, it also compiles fine on gnu/linux
11:53<efess>well not with my changes
11:53<@planetmaker>well. There obviously is the thing you should have mentioned before
11:53<efess>figure there must be some way to see what's causing the error
11:53<efess>:(
11:55<efess>yea, I didn't expect help on fixing the error, just to see if there was a way to show more output from the build chain
11:56<andythenorth>hmm
11:56*andythenorth wonders what to do next
11:56<@planetmaker>efess, usually there's output on compile errors
11:56<@planetmaker>so dunno what you did to get rid of it
11:57<@planetmaker>andythenorth, 32bpp sprites for FIRS, 4x only (no need to do the other zoom levels as I found out)
11:57<@planetmaker>:P
11:57<andythenorth>:P
11:57<@planetmaker>(no, I mean that honestly, OpenTTD scales it reasonably well for me. At least for landscape)
11:57<efess>probably not a compile error then
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12:02<@peter1138>Did we ever support partial GRFs?
12:02<@peter1138>(With 2x/4x stripped out)
12:05<andythenorth>anyone want to patch extended vehicle info for buy menu
12:05<andythenorth>specifically autorefit, and altered cargo decay rates
12:06<andythenorth>maybe as progressive disclosure
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12:06<+michi_cc>We do in so far as the MD5 sum is only done over the data part, but bananas might act funny. grfstrip is also existing.
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12:19<Xhadius>Hi, ist there any way to remove the company password from a company with the admin console?
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12:21<@planetmaker>Xhadius, not directly. But you can move players or yourself into the company
12:21<@planetmaker>and then set an empty password
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12:22<Xhadius>How to do that?
12:23<@planetmaker>rcon password "move clientID companyID"
12:27<Xhadius>ty
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12:30<mek42>hiyas!
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12:42<andythenorth>oops
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12:48<LSky>hi mek42
12:49<mek42>how are things?
12:49<@Rubidium>efess: is that a patched build?
12:50-!-tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-93-11.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd
12:50<efess>Rubidium: yea
12:50<@Rubidium>efess: if so, you're probably missing some file needed for the build... but for some reason make isn't really verbose about it
12:51<efess>hmm thanks, I'll check!
12:51<@Rubidium>it's probably the file that's alphabetically after "os/unix/unix.cpp" in sources.list
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12:52<Aristide>http://wstaw.org/m/2014/01/25/plasma-desktopkS2376.png Yeah !
12:52<Aristide>o/
12:52<Aristide>My beautiful bus network <3
12:52<Aristide>Hi everybody :3
12:54<mek42>hiyas aristide
12:54<Aristide>Hi mek42 o/
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12:56<mek42>i've mostly figured out the non-PBS signals, haven't done combos yet, still having some learning pains for more complex systems, but getting there
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13:09<TheZonta>Hey Folks
13:10<efess>Rubidium: Thank you, that was it.. I forgot to svn add the file before I ran diff
13:10<efess>the fact it stopped at os\unix threw me off
13:10<TheZonta>Someone know if there a Tram set that allow the transportation of coal/grain/livestock/water/oil ?
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13:11<@planetmaker>yup, someone knows
13:12<@planetmaker>if your actual question is as to which: try heqs
13:13<TheZonta>Yes my question was which one XD - And thank ill check that out
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13:40<LSky>there doesnt happen to be anyone around with a 64bit Windows compiling environment?
13:47<@Alberth>it may help if you ask what you want to know :)
13:51<@planetmaker>hm, yeah. Answering to meta questions is very dangerous as you then quickly will find yourself in a position to be asked to answer questions one has no clue about at all
13:51<@planetmaker>(or which are too boring to care to answer :P )
13:54<@Alberth>uh oh, zephyris is beating us to coding :p
13:56<@planetmaker>uh oh :)
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14:04<LSky>ill try to ask differently :D
14:05<LSky>if im generating a map which requires a 64bit version of the game, will a server thats loading this pregenerated map (scenario) and players connecting to that server require a 64bit build as well? im currently running out of memory when attempting to generate one.
14:06<@planetmaker>uh... map? Maps don't require anything special
14:06<LSky>not actual memory, but it cant give me more memory because its 32
14:06<@planetmaker>A map can't be bigger than 4GByte anyway....
14:06<LSky>well yeah
14:06<@planetmaker>@calc 2048*2048*8
14:06<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 33554432
14:06<@planetmaker>@calc 2048*2048*8 / 1024*1024
14:06<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 33554432
14:06<@Rubidium>according to the forum the map generation isn't really memory efficient
14:07<@planetmaker>@calc 2048*2048*8 / (1024*1024)
14:07<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 32
14:07<LSky>but doesnt generation require more memory than just loading a pregenerated map?
14:07<@planetmaker>yes, that it does
14:08<LSky>alright, so Im hoping that if I can generate a map with a 64bit client (which i think I need because the 32bit version obviously cant allocate more/enough), I wont need this after its generated
14:08<LSky>and I can just go ahead and put it on a normal server and play with a normal client
14:08<@Rubidium>since you're patching anyhow, you could try the patches that reduce the memory requirements
14:09<LSky>oh, those are out there?
14:09<@Rubidium>*someone* should look at the patches fixing that issue and commit them if they're sound
14:09*Rubidium fears that someone to be himself... though I'm somewhat time constraint at the moment
14:12<@planetmaker>hm, the sign list totally misses a or several buttons to select the companies you want to see signs of
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14:17<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: edited my post :P
14:22<mek42>LSky - I'm running 64 bit Linux if that helps at all
14:24<LSky>Thanks, but I was planning on using the 64bit build to make a nice scenario, which is proabbly best done on my desktop
14:34<@planetmaker>64bit, linux and desktop are not mutually exclusive :P
14:35<LSky>right, but if you just have W7 on your desktop
14:35<LSky>that complicates things
14:37<frosch123>why does 64bit matter?
14:38<LSky>32bit client cant allocate enough memory
14:39<LSky>at least, thats what I gather from the crash report when I do try
14:45<mek42>LSky - use cygwin?
14:46<mek42>what is the scenario hoped to be about?
14:48<mek42>LSky - or run a virtualbox linux session long enough to do your thing
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15:17<andythenorth>slow compile is slow
15:17<andythenorth>Alberth / Eddi|zuHause plausible solution? https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/6734
15:17<andythenorth>I've never had to handle this kind of thing before
15:18<@Alberth>ditch windows? :)
15:19<@Alberth>I have no clue, didn't touch that OS in the last 17 years or so :p
15:19<andythenorth>I am not building a VM to test this :P
15:20<@Alberth>it sounds like a race condition of some kind
15:20<@Alberth>but it doesn't say what goes wrong either
15:20<andythenorth>he gets permissions errors
15:20<andythenorth>I would have expected shutil.rmtree(graphics_output_path) to return before the script can advance
15:21<andythenorth>but maybe Windows does a bad thing
15:21*Alberth expects that too
15:21<andythenorth>I don't expect to have to write my own code for checking that stuff has done what it said it would do
15:21<@Alberth>maybe it triggers some update service or cache stuff
15:22<@Alberth>ie it's a smart OS, anything can happen :p
15:22<andythenorth>:D
15:22<@Alberth>it may be an upstream bug :)
15:24<@Alberth>http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2037376/flaky-file-deletion-under-windows-7
15:24<@Alberth>and there are lots more if you search a little
15:26<@Alberth>you could consider not removing the generated stuff :)
15:29<andythenorth>ho
15:29<andythenorth>why do I remove them?
15:29<andythenorth>must be a reason :P
15:34<andythenorth>am I going to get skinned alive if I bundle railtypes in a train grf?
15:34<andythenorth>it's what I would want personally as a player
15:35*skyem123 prepares the skinning equipment
15:38<@Alberth>nuts does it too, doesn't it?
15:39*skyem123 realizes he needs another set of skinning equipment.
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15:52<@planetmaker>andythenorth, the problem then again is that I can't combine (train) NewGRFs properly
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16:07<andythenorth>he
16:07<andythenorth>I never want to :)
16:07<andythenorth>I can't think of an actually good solution to this problem
16:07<andythenorth>there are solutions...but none good :)
16:09<skyem123>uh oh...
16:10<skyem123>my hdd disconected
16:13<skyem123>I thought that it failed. luckily it was just unplugged. :-o <- Phew!
16:13<@planetmaker>you should quickly make a backup copy of the whole disk
16:13<skyem123>1.5 TB?
16:13<@planetmaker>spare disk helps :)
16:13<skyem123>I have 5 TB of space on all of my hdd. (some of it used)
16:14<@Rubidium>backups... what's the use?
16:15*Rubidium wonders how many people make backups without regularly checking whether they can restore their system from said backups
16:15<skyem123>Windows 8.1 does not let you back up.
16:16<@Rubidium>ah, good to know
16:16<@Rubidium>so avoid Windows 8.x as if it were a plague
16:17<skyem123>Guess what i have?
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16:17<@Rubidium>a Windows XP cd and you're ready to downgrade?
16:18<@Rubidium>s/down/up/
16:18<skyem123>I have a windoes xp product key in my head. I had to reinstall so mutch times that i memorized it.
16:19<skyem123>:-p
16:19*Rubidium still knows it as well, but I haven't installed it in about a decade
16:20<skyem123>my windows xp disk is corrupted.
16:23<@Rubidium>only sad thing of Windows XP is the fragmentation one gets over time
16:23<skyem123>defrag.exe
16:23<@Rubidium>laptop of $BOSS has over 80% fragmented files
16:23<Xaroth|Work>not nearly as effective, skyem123
16:23<+glx>and not enough free space to defrag ?
16:23<skyem123>I avoid fragmentation by not deleting anything
16:24<@Rubidium>deleting doesn't fragment
16:24<@Rubidium>glx: it has a few virtualbox instances; one is so fragmented over the disk that it never manages to find enough space to put that file (even though 70% is empty)
16:25<+glx>swap file in the middle of a drive is a good fragmenter
16:25<skyem123>I thought it happened when the computer splits a large file up to fit into the free spaces that were created when small files were deleted.
16:25<+glx>worse when it has been increased on a used drive
16:25<@Rubidium>anyhow, now I got ultradefrag running, but it goes extremely slow (even in boot time mode)
16:25*skyem123 gasps for air
16:26<+glx>yeah offline mode is required for the best defrag
16:26<+glx>else many files can't be moved
16:27<@Rubidium>skyem123: but your OS will only split large files when there isn't enough contiguous space, or it doesn't know the final size at the end in which case it will just splatter it all over the disk for some reason
16:27<Xaroth|Work>or when it tries to write multiple things at the same time :|
16:28<@Rubidium>in any case, SSDs don't see as much of the performance impact of fragmentation than those old spinning bastards
16:29<skyem123>SSDs are expensive
16:29<+glx>better not defrag a SSD
16:29<@Rubidium>skyem123: really?
16:29<Xaroth|Work>win7 disables defrag on SSDs by default
16:29<Xaroth|Work>thankfully
16:30<Xaroth|Work>skyem123: that's all relative tbqfh
16:30<@Rubidium>I wait 5-10 minutes at least each day for the development environment and mail client to start on the laptop of $BOSS
16:30<Xaroth|Work>50 eurocent per GB is doable
16:30<@Rubidium>that's 1 hour a week
16:30<+glx>access time is "constant" on SSD (compared to classic)
16:30<Xaroth|Work>Rubidium: yikes
16:31*Xaroth|Work is glad he got a SSD on work :|
16:31<Xaroth|Work>s/on/at/
16:32<@planetmaker>rivers finally done... http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/other_tropic2.png
16:33<+glx>8bpp roads ?
16:33<@Rubidium>so... over 3 year life span of a laptop... 120 hours, times... minimum wage: 1000 EUR. But I cost the company a lot more than minimum wage, so roughly a months worth of salary
16:33<@planetmaker>yeah, 8bpp roads (and rails)
16:34<@planetmaker>haven't yet stolen them from zbase
16:34<+glx>no rails on the screenshot ;)
16:34<@planetmaker>well :P
16:34<@Rubidium>so if they spend 500 EUR more on the HDD, they save like five times as much
16:35<@Rubidium>good luck finding a reasonable SSD that is 500 EUR more expensive (reasonable as in 250-500 GiB)
16:36<Xaroth|Work>you can get a 900GB SSD for 500 EUR
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16:40<frosch123>hmm, my boss send the admin an mail to replace my hdd with a bigger one. the hdd is already available, but i am not confident it will happen this year :p
16:41<@planetmaker>that's a long lead time :)
16:42<frosch123>well, i guess still not long enough for me to run out of topics to complain about :p
16:42<@Rubidium>frosch123: how many levels away from CEO is your boss?
16:42-!-oskari89 [~oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
16:42<frosch123>2 to 3
16:43<@Rubidium>oh... easily ignorable ;)
16:43<frosch123>it's not easy to tell whether the first level under the ceo exists
16:44<Andreas>planetmaker, looks nice, although I find the slopes a bit hard to recognise/spot
16:45<@Rubidium>I doubt it will beat my "backup of the database" issue, though they might've fixed that a few days ago (haven't seen real proof though, so I expect it to not be fixed). That has issue at least reached CEO-1 level thrice and is almost 2 years old
16:45<@Rubidium>CEO-1 being CFO/COO/CTO
16:45<@planetmaker>easier to spot when zoomed-out, Andreas
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16:49<@Rubidium>but alas, I shouldn't rant about IT. They're way too busy lieing and covering for their lies than doing actual work
16:49<@Rubidium>on that note, frosch123: how sure are you the hdd is already available? Have you physically seen it being installed in the right machine?
16:50<@planetmaker>you don't exactly sound happy about that, Rubidium ;)
16:50<@planetmaker>Andreas, http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/other_tropic4.png
16:51<frosch123>Rubidium: it's lieing in the room of boss+2
16:51<@Rubidium>planetmaker: well, there's only one IT-ish guy I'd appreciate on sysadmin appreciation day (TB)
16:52<@planetmaker>:)
16:52<@Rubidium>frosch123: oh, that doesn't mean anything. They can easily give it to someone else and then the budget for HDDs is gone
16:52<frosch123>planetmaker: see, the issue is, i am at a software dev company
16:52<Xaroth|Work>Rubidium: IT-ish? :P
16:52<frosch123>2/3 of the admins have not learnt any admin stuff, but are just old devs who for some reason failed at deving and moved to admin
16:52<@planetmaker>he
16:53<frosch123>i actually cannot complain about the 1/3 who actually know what they are doing
16:54<frosch123>planetmaker: can you imagine how long it takes to install 50 notebooks?
16:54<@planetmaker>depends on how they differ
16:54<frosch123>identical
16:54*Rubidium can
16:55<frosch123>though with hdd encryption
16:55<@planetmaker>then it should be easy. Dead easy. As long as one + 5 minutes + copy time for HDD
16:55<frosch123>which is not identical ofc :p
16:55<@Rubidium>about time it takes for one + (amount - 1) * 5 minutes + time to stream disk over network (using ghost)
16:56<frosch123>well, they installed one at a time, taking 1.5 days for each
16:56<@Rubidium>what OS?
16:56<@planetmaker>uh...
16:56<frosch123>i mean, even if you cannot do the copy stuff, you should do 5 in parallel, instead of waiting for each installation to finish :p
16:57<frosch123>Rubidium: win7
16:57<TinoDidriksen>1.5 days for each...wtf
16:57<frosch123>installing every product by hand, following a handwritten list of things to install
16:57<@Rubidium>so... configure unattended install, takes maybe 1 week. Then install them all over the weekend
16:58<TinoDidriksen>Or just install one and ntfsclone it to every other machine.
16:58<@planetmaker>can the encryption be changed after install?
16:58<frosch123>nope
16:58<frosch123>encryption is boot time
16:59*Rubidium hopes he can install the next $BOSS laptop mostly himself; let IT install Windows + Office + Antivirus, then I'll do the rest
16:59<Andreas>@ planetmaker looks better indeed
17:00<TinoDidriksen>You can install them all without encryption, then enable it after the fact to get individual encryption keys.
17:00<@Rubidium>I hate the huge load of mostly crapware that I'm not going to use for burning CDs or whatever
17:02<@planetmaker>TinoDidriksen, that's what I meant
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17:02<@planetmaker>would allow to simply clone the disks and then be done with it
17:02<@planetmaker>(and I'd keep one laptop as the master to update others from and test modifications)
17:03<mek42>handwritten scripts, eh? sounds like punch cards would be an improvement ;)
17:05<mek42>are there ever transport networks where an unprofitable line in the network increases the overall net profit of the network system?
17:06<frosch123>that does not sound unusual at all
17:06<Taede>transfers for one
17:06<Wolf01>'night
17:06-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host58-55-dynamic.182-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
17:07<Andreas>Well I know next to nothing about IT/admin work, but my dad used to be. Whenever they had to do installs they just configured unattended install, small script for installing the needed other software from a network drive and be done in no time
17:07<frosch123>either transfers with very differently fast vehicles
17:07<frosch123>or iron ore vs. goods
17:07<frosch123>you can make a loss on an iron ore line
17:07<frosch123>but the steel and goods make so much more profit, that iron ore does not matter
17:08<Andreas>indeed, aslo transfering passengers to train station/airport can tremendously increase profit even though the rv's will loose money
17:13<Andreas>is there anybody here that would be willing to compile a winX86 binary of this: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=63721 patch for me?
17:13<Andreas>I could figure out how to do it myself but I have 0 experience with mercurial
17:13<Andreas>and I am a bit lazy
17:13<Andreas>:p
17:14<+glx>not a valid reason :)
17:14<Andreas>I know it is not valid, but I can still try right? XD
17:14<frosch123>Andreas: sorry, i am clipping my nails
17:15<+glx>of course, trying costs nothing
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17:27<@planetmaker>that's one of the weirdest excuses I heard so far, frosch123 ;)
17:27<frosch123>yeah, that was kind of the idea :p
17:29<frosch123>it's does not "cost nothing", it come at the expense of getting stupid answer
17:29<Andreas>I kinda expected that
17:31-!-Elukka [~Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit []
17:31<mek42>Andreas - maybe next time just ask, don't explain why :)
17:32*Andreas will take that advice
17:32<Andreas>doing it right now will not help though ( I guess)
17:32<frosch123>mek42: generally, it is very unlikely to find anyone willing to compile anything for windows
17:33<mek42>i didn't learn that this game even existed until browsing the OpenSUSE repos about a week ago
17:34<frosch123>i guess most come here because of their childhood memories
17:34<frosch123>but those people are getting older
17:34<frosch123>maybe new kids become because of yogscast
17:35<frosch123>s/be//
17:36<mek42>i don't remember the sed to put a \' in front of "cause" to correct your correction in a cute way :)
17:38<mek42>about two weeks ago i made my laptop into a dual boot machine, before this it has been about five years since i've run a linux box (boxes actually, i ran a modest three node beowulf for part of my masters work)
17:42-!-Hazzard [~43aefd2c@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:42<@planetmaker>frosch123, your sed would fail and catch the wrong 'be' ;)
17:43<frosch123>mek42: unless you need full power for gaming you should start using virtual machines
17:43<frosch123>planetmaker: yeah, you need the semantical plugin
17:43<@planetmaker>hä? :P
17:44<frosch123>but you likely know already that i often get ahead of my typing
17:44<mek42>frosch123: i do intend to, just haven't gotten around to it yet - i assume it is trivial to setup on a dual boot machine and that Linux is the better host OS?
17:45<@planetmaker>:)
17:45<frosch123>skipping words, or like in this case taking the beginning of "because" and putting it in front of "become"
17:45<@planetmaker>ahead... reminds me of 'to bed' though. Where I feel I belong now :)
17:45<@planetmaker>good night :)
17:46<frosch123>mek42: i guess linux is the better host because you can easier upgrade it
17:46<frosch123>keep the host clean and simple and do all the mess in vms, which you can backup or drop and everything
17:46<Andreas>gn8
17:47<mek42>night
17:48<mek42>i had been reading about python and parallel coding, then i found openttd in the repo one night ...
17:49<frosch123>sounds related :p
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17:56<mek42>lol
17:56<Andreas>lol started watching the yogscast videos on openttd, that guys are quite funny
17:57<mek42>meaning my reading progress has slowed dramitically after starting to ply this game
17:57<LSky>reading progress?
17:57<LSky>oh
17:57<LSky>the coding bit
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17:58<frosch123>Andreas: it might qualify as non-content
17:58<Pikka>discontent?
17:59<Andreas>that videos or my remark? or both?
18:00<frosch123>Pikka: youtube videos are classified in three categories. those which are watched because of their content (legit content), those which have no content but are watched nevertheless (non-content), and those which are not watched at all
18:09<@Rubidium>damn... the defrag is slow... it hasn't reached 2% yet
18:09<mek42>!password
18:09-!-mek42 was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
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18:10<mek42>oops
18:15<Pikka>frosch123, I'm sure my videos fall somewhere between the last two.
18:17<frosch123>hmm, so, do i now fix zbase?
18:18<Pikka>fix it?
18:18<frosch123>most recolour sprites are wrong
18:18-!-sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@95.76.164.39] has quit []
18:18<frosch123>they use win palette indices when they should use dos
18:18<luaduck>hey guys, is visual studio literally the only way to compile winx64 version of ottd?
18:19<luaduck>having a problem compiling a patch using vstudio when a friend is having no issues with MinGW
18:20<frosch123>what? why is there thunder outside?
18:20<frosch123>it is cold... how can there be thunder?
18:21<+glx>there's mingw64 luaduck, but last time I tried it almost broke my mingw setup
18:21<luaduck>I'm assuming official builds are done using vstudio
18:21<+glx>VS is the easier way for 64bit builds yes
18:21<frosch123>oi, it is snowing
18:22<+glx>in winter ?
18:22<+glx>weird ;)
18:22<luaduck>getting unresolved external symbol issues and not being a developer myself I have no idea at all what to look for
18:22<mek42>frosch, which continent are you on?
18:22<frosch123>i don't remember having ever experienced snowing with thunder
18:22<frosch123>europe
18:22<luaduck>we had thunder immediately followed by snow back in 06-07 iirc
18:22<mek42>you've seriously never had a thunderblizzard?
18:22<luaduck>(UK)
18:23<frosch123>mek42: no
18:23<mek42>frosch123: ok, i'll keep sending the cold air to you via the jet stream
18:23<frosch123>thunder is something you have in summer or autumn
18:23<+glx>luaduck: patch added files ?
18:23<frosch123>in winter you have howling wind
18:23<frosch123>but no thunder
18:24<luaduck>glx: I'll query you the patch
18:25<+glx>I guess you first tried to compile without patch
18:25<luaduck>compiling without patch works absolutely fine
18:25<mek42>i think snow thunder is higher voltage than rain lightning because the air has lower conductivity, thus a higher potential is needed; s/thunder/lightning/
18:25<luaduck>and apparently compiling on mingw has no issues
18:25<@Rubidium>progress... defrag is 0.03% further than 15 minutes ago
18:25<luaduck>but we're trying to get a x64 version for more memory
18:26<@Rubidium>at this staggering speed it'll only take about 5 weeks before it completes the defragmentation
18:26<+glx>luaduck: yeah the patch maker forgot to run projects/generate
18:27<luaduck>mystery solved
18:27<+glx>any change in source.list require generation of project files
18:27-!-Midnightmyth [~quassel@93-167-84-102-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:27<luaduck>so what's the best way to do it, copy the source to a nix box and run ./generate
18:28<fjb>Moin
18:28<luaduck>or can I just run generate.vps
18:28<luaduck>vbs*
18:28<+glx>generate.vbs should work
18:28<+glx>(it does for me ;) )
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18:29<frosch123>quak fjb
18:29<fjb>Quak frosch123
18:29<@Rubidium>moi moi
18:29<luaduck>I'll grab a fresh copy of 26275 and retry
18:30<luaduck>if it works I'll award you with exactly 250 points
18:30<+glx>you can also "build" generate project in openttd solution
18:31<luaduck>I'm getting an initial "following headers are missing in source.list and not in /src/ or vice versa on overlay.h
18:31<luaduck>is that safe to ignore or is something going to catch fire
18:32<frosch123>you may miss dependencies on rebuild
18:32<frosch123>but if you compile only once, you may get away with it
18:32<luaduck>cross your fingers
18:33<+glx>yes src/overlay.h is not in source.list
18:34<+glx>but missing .h in project files is less problematic than missing .cpp ;)
18:35<+glx>the rule is easy, add all new files to source.list then run generate
18:37<+glx>(though sometime the generate step is forgotten by non windows devs ;) )
18:37<frosch123>there is a farm to remind us :)
18:38<luaduck>I'm a junior sysadmin, and my worst enemy is already developers
18:38<luaduck>well that's now generating code
18:38<luaduck>so praise the lawd
18:38<frosch123>luaduck: it also works the other way around
18:38*luaduck electronically transfers 250 points to glx
18:38<frosch123>we talked about that earlier :)
18:39<+glx>maybe generate should be added to the makefile
18:40<+glx>as source.list triggers a reconfigure IIRC
18:40<frosch123>and squirrel wrapper generations and everything :p
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18:50<Andreas>frosch123, you might consider that openttd videos from yogscast non-content, but you could also consider them examples of the trouble people run into when they start playing this game
18:51<Andreas>they are quite experienced gamers, yet they suck and mess up in almost every possible way
18:51<frosch123>no, they are non-content. noone watches them because of ottd. they are watched because of their interaction
18:51<frosch123>it's like tb's and jesses terraria series
18:51<frosch123>and i watched that completely
18:52<frosch123>"non-content" is not a bad thing :p
18:52<Andreas>it
18:52<Andreas>*uhm
18:52<Andreas>that's totally true, but still, it nicely illustrates why it is a hard game to get started at
18:52<LordAro>poll: tabs or spaces?
18:53<frosch123>Andreas: yes, but for that you better watch other ottd videos, not those from yc
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18:53<+glx>LordAro: where ?
18:53<frosch123>LordAro: spaces are easier to understand for most people
18:53<frosch123>and you can easier ban tabs entirely with precommit hooks
18:53<LordAro>glx: c++ code
18:53<LordAro>generally
18:54<+glx>tab (+ spaces for aligning if conditions)
18:55<LordAro>woo, a tab supporter :)
18:56<frosch123>i used to like tabs, but it is easier to use spaces than to get annoyed about people not understanding tabs :p
18:57<frosch123>same as for putting * and & next to the var, or next to the type
18:58<frosch123>LordAro: so, adjust for your audience :)
19:00<LordAro>this is true :p
19:00<LordAro>but then, i'm also arguing against BSD style, so i've got to win something :L
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19:08<frosch123>LordAro: are you already at prefixing variable names? :p
19:09<LordAro>no, luckily
19:09<LordAro>they're not that insane :)
19:16<frosch123>LordAro: docs in header or in source?
19:17<LordAro>frosch123: i'm trying to keep it as close to OTTD style as possible
19:17<LordAro>so, source
19:17<frosch123>inline functions in header: directly in the class definition, or after it?
19:17<frosch123>sorry, just making fun of all those rules which noone can keep track of :p
19:17<LordAro>haven't got any of those functions yet, but personally i'd say in the class
19:17<LordAro>:p
19:18<frosch123>sometimes i wonder whether java is specifically designed to not give any choices in that area :p
19:19<frosch123>no headers, no prototypes, no * or &
19:19<frosch123>LordAro: oh, i forgot to ask about capitalisation
19:19<frosch123>lowerCamelCase or UpperCamelCase ?
19:20<LordAro>Upper
19:20<LordAro>:)
19:20<Pikka>randomcase!
19:20<LordAro>D:
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19:23<mek42>fwiw i like tab key = x spaces for text, proper tabs for documents - and dealing with documents where a previous user didn't do automation, spaces, manual numbering, etc., is painful to deal with after the fact
19:24<frosch123>are you talking about people manually numbering lists in a wiki? :p
19:25<mek42>no, like in a word processor document
19:26<LSky>is the limit of tiles per map restricted by the larger maps patch, or is that a restriction built into OpenTTD?
19:27<frosch123>hu?
19:27<frosch123>the larger maps patch raises the limit
19:27<LSky>right, but you still cant go beyond 8k x 8k
19:28<frosch123>yeah, making it go beyond 8k is harder
19:28<frosch123>then you need to change way more
19:28<frosch123>but luckily there is no point in making it even more lager
19:28<LSky>right, we'll stick with this for now
19:28<Pikka>mm, even more lager
19:29<frosch123>LSky: don't even try to run that in multiplayer btw :p
19:30<LSky>why not :(
19:30<LSky>of course were going to try :D
19:30<luaduck>LSky's just trying to make my donated server melt
19:30<frosch123>yeah, make your own experience :)
19:30<LSky>whats the fun in not trying?
19:31<mek42>LSky: how soon do you think you'll be ready for players?
19:31<frosch123>but you could try 2kx2k for a start
19:31<frosch123>you don't need to patch, and it is already too big
19:31<LSky>we've done 2k by 2k plenty
19:32<frosch123>never heard of anyone doing that
19:32<LSky>on our main server we settled for 2k by 1k to allow for a broad base of players to join
19:32<LSky>but its always fun to push the limits
19:33<frosch123>how many vehicles?
19:33<LSky>well, people with slower computers have trouble joining once the game progresses about 60-80%
19:33<LSky>they wont be able to keep up with all the vehicles
19:33<LSky>since we disabled pause on join
19:34<LSky>Id say about 2000 trains max, maybe double in RVs
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19:34<+glx>idealy the server should be the slowest machine
19:35<LSky>the combination with those numbers and a load of newgrfs makes it troublesome for people with slower/older computers
19:35<LSky>so thats why were keeping the main server at 2k by 1k
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21:58<Pikka>laterzzzzzzzzz
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22:14<mek42>is there a way to see who is cooping in my company and then to force everyone out of my company?
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---Logclosed Sun Jan 26 00:00:47 2014