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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-01-26

---Logopened Sun Jan 26 00:00:47 2014
00:13<TheZonta>Thanks planetmaker for the HEQS GRF i never had so mutch fun watching some vehicle (The crawler with 3 trailers (AKA a Dozer with trailers))
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02:39<andythenorth>Pikka bon apres
02:39<Pikka>bon vie le bon mots
02:39<andythenorth>bon anniversaire
02:39<andythenorth>que tal?
02:40<Pikka>bon chance
02:40<Pikka>que que?
02:42<Pikka>something about grain hoppers
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02:46<andythenorth>grain hopper?
02:56<Pikka>that's the one
02:57*Rubidium rather sees grace hopper
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03:04<@Rubidium>is that ~ a "not", or an "about"
03:05<@Rubidium>the defrag isn't really progressing nicely; it's at 4.25%, before I went to bed it didn't reach 2% yet
03:09<andythenorth>what is 'defrag' o_O
03:10<Eddi|zuHause>what is a 'rhethorical question'?
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03:16<@Rubidium>anyhow... it's a 150 GB partition with 50 GB of data, so its defragging about 16 MB per minute
03:18<@planetmaker>the ~ is the wave ;)
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03:20<andythenorth>I was always taught that macs were somehow magical and didn't need defragging
03:20<andythenorth>a defragmenting utility disagreed
03:21<andythenorth>but that was ~14 years ago
03:22<Pikka>I was taught that all modern operating systems are magical and don't need defragging, or something
03:25<andythenorth>let's just trust to magic
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03:41<andythenorth>Pikka: you might have ruined 8bpp for me
03:41<andythenorth>that or my eyes are just getting too old :P
03:42<Pikka>I'm so used to zooming in and seeing the pixels with the old sprites that I kind of want zi16 now, so I can see big pixels in my ez sprites :D
03:43<andythenorth>I want proper pixel art at 2x zoom :P
03:43<andythenorth>but that is a major redrawing project :(
03:44<Pikka>why 2x and not 4x? :)
03:45<Pikka>no sense in doing it halfway ;)
03:45<andythenorth>oh the humanity :P
03:45<andythenorth>imagine drawing that many pixels :P
03:47<@planetmaker>well, there's no need to *redraw* everything. But you simply could start to draw new stuff in 4x
03:47<@planetmaker>the old sprites don't suddenly start to bitrot
03:47<andythenorth>it is somewhat appealing, but the time factor would be well against it
03:47<andythenorth>if I had a part-time job and no children... :)
03:48<andythenorth>drawing an industry currently takes 1-4 days
03:50<@planetmaker>would it really take so much more?
03:51*Rubidium guesses 4x makes sense; you used a 15 inch monitor in 1995 at 640x480, now a 15 inch laptop monitor can do like 2880 by 1800 -> 4.5 times larger on X axis and 3.75 times larger on Y axis... so at zoom level 4 on a MacBook Pro with Retina you have the same size as on your CRT monitor in 1995 at the original zoom level
03:51<@planetmaker>also, the result would be worth the extra time, IMHO
03:51<@planetmaker>assuming it would then take a week
03:53*Rubidium must say developing something for 1024 by ~550 is quite a challenge when you're used to 3200 by 1200 (dual monitor) or 1920 by 1080 (single monitor)
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03:53<@planetmaker>yup, quite :)
03:56<@planetmaker>I mean while am also quite a fan of more detailed graphics for this game :)
03:56<@planetmaker>Actually I'm meanwhile also convinced that they should be 32bpp... why restrict colours?
03:58<@planetmaker>doesn't mean it shouldn't be pixel art, though
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04:09<@peter1138>everyone knows 32bpp 4x needs to be rendered! ;(
04:09*planetmaker doesn't render it but pixel pushes
04:10<@planetmaker>and I see no way how I can really gain much by rendering landscapes instead of pixel pushing it
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04:14<@peter1138>too early for british humour i see
04:17<Pikka>planetmaker, how's your landscape coming along? :D
04:17<@planetmaker>pretty well, I believe. Rivers are done now, too, including river mouths
04:17<@planetmaker>next is canals
04:17<@planetmaker>then maybe 32bpp for roads and rails
04:18<andythenorth>peter1138: you call that British humour?
04:18<@peter1138>andythenorth, not really
04:19<Pikka>fancy, planetmaker :)
04:25<andythenorth>Pikka: are you still going to do multiple 10CC sets?
04:26<Pikka>since the trains are now fictitious and not-country-based, probably not, andy. :D
04:27<andythenorth>I think Iron Horse is going to be multiple grfs
04:27<andythenorth>which I don't like
04:27<andythenorth>but the compile time is already long :P
04:28<andythenorth>just for brit stuff
04:28<andythenorth>whatever happened to assigning vehicles to specific player?
04:29<andythenorth>30s to compile a grf :(
04:31<Pikka>I remember compile times like that :P
04:31<Pikka>32bpp ez grfs take a bit longer.
04:32<andythenorth>FIRS is 3 mins, without ez :P
04:37<@planetmaker>andy, I'm really... used to much longer times :D
04:38<Japa>is there any way to do smooth terrain transitions with OTTD?
04:38<@planetmaker>what is smooth?
04:39<@planetmaker>and no, not really smoother than in that screenshot
04:39<Japa> <- the opposite of the transition between desert and grass
04:39<@planetmaker>terrain is not aware of adjacent tiles
04:39<andythenorth>planetmaker: shame we can't fix it :)
04:39<@planetmaker>and awareness of surroundings would be required
04:39<andythenorth>slow compile times = less incentive to do fun work
04:39<@planetmaker>andythenorth, hm... I just try to get the compile time of my landscape set... still compiling :D
04:40<@planetmaker>with a single core it's about 30 minutes
04:40<@planetmaker>on the CF
04:40<@peter1138>You got some weird blocky edges in that screenshot
04:41<@planetmaker>I used the actual tile shapes
04:42<@planetmaker>and not the more straight ones which slightly go beyond tile size
04:42<@planetmaker>the road is still boring up-scaled 8bpp road
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04:43<andythenorth>planetmaker: partial compile is your friend? :P
04:43<andythenorth>partial comple is the only way I can keep working on FIRS
04:44<@planetmaker>andythenorth, yes, it goes doen considerably, when I don't re-do everything. Especially as most time is spend generating graphics
04:44<@planetmaker>but still, longer than seconds
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04:44<@planetmaker>because when I change the main terrain file, of course everything based on that needs re-generation
04:45<@planetmaker>which is dozens of files
04:45<@peter1138>straight edges don't go beyond tile size
04:45*andythenorth considers compile time flags for --no-template-compile or such
04:46<@planetmaker>peter1138, they do actually. Tiles are scaled-up the 1x sprite sizes
04:46<@peter1138>shame you're doing it that way
04:46<@peter1138>i know there's the smooth vs jaggy argument
04:46<@peter1138>but i think smooth is better
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04:47<@planetmaker>it's a simple matter of changing the mask
04:47<@peter1138>multiple versions!
04:48<@planetmaker>I'm also not exactly convinced that the smoother versions offer a real advantage
04:48<@peter1138>well it's all cosmetic
04:50<@planetmaker>a jagged transition from grass to stone is as good imho as an exactly straight one. Good results are only possible, if we allow checking for adjacent terrain types
04:51<SpComb>a smooth transition from pikemen to archers
04:51<@planetmaker>yeah :P
04:53<Japa>Looks like I've found what my first patch attempt will be about
04:53<SpComb>it's all about the eco
04:53<SpComb>33 create extra villagers
04:53<SpComb>oh wait, wrong channel
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05:05<Wolf01>hi hi
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05:05<Wolf01>andy o/
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05:27*LordAro moins
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05:44<andythenorth>Pikka: how many wagons has 10CC?
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05:55<Pikka>does have or will have?
05:56<Pikka>will have one for each default non-toyland cargo.
05:58<@planetmaker>what is 'each non-toyland cargo'? The defaults or those defined in wiki, also by ecs+firs?
05:58*Pikka points to the word "default" in my sentence. ;)
05:59<@planetmaker>hm :)
06:00<@planetmaker>feature request! :P
06:00<andythenorth>it was not hard to keep IH to 20 engines
06:00<andythenorth>although lots of 'extras' have crept in :P
06:00<andythenorth>but wagons just growed
06:01<Pikka>that's where avoiding "realism" helps, andythenorth ;)
06:01<@planetmaker>there's reason for different wagons. Though refit can take care of keeping it down
06:01<andythenorth>definitely helped with the engines
06:01<Pikka>my wagons are all liberally refittable
06:01<andythenorth>26 wagons in IH (including coaches)
06:02<Pikka>and I'm certainly open to including custom cargo graphics... I'll certainly do cars on flatcars, for example.
06:02<Pikka>that's not much more than mine, andy
06:02<Pikka>especially if you count coach generations as seperate vehicles
06:02<andythenorth>they all have a gameplay reason
06:02<andythenorth>I think
06:03<@planetmaker>Pikka, different generations should be different vehicles really. --> autoreplace
06:03<Pikka>it's just visual difference, planetmaker
06:03<@planetmaker>no stats?
06:03<@planetmaker>then of course it doesn't matter :)
06:04<Pikka>my wagon stats are all very generic and ttd-ish
06:05<andythenorth>I need danmack to pop up :)
06:05<Pikka>the only difference between the mail van and the armoured van, or the different tankers, or the different vans, are the graphics and the default cargo. :)
06:05<andythenorth>hoppers overlap open cars
06:05<andythenorth>flat cars overlap open cars
06:05<andythenorth>box cars overlap open cars
06:05<andythenorth>kind of wondering why bother with open cars
06:06<Pikka>because visible cargos are nice
06:06<andythenorth>oh that
06:06<andythenorth>ok, why bother with box cars? :)
06:07<andythenorth>I think this gets filed under "don't overthink it" eh?
06:07<Pikka>because more is better or something
06:07<Pikka>or realism
06:08<Pikka>I just realised I'm "supposed" to be doing freight cars for monolev too... I guess that adds a few. :/
06:08<andythenorth>yeah :x
06:08<Japa>andythenorth, boxcars are for when you don't want to damage your goods in the rain
06:09<andythenorth>Japa: there is no rain in ttd...
06:09<andythenorth>pikka I am -1 to these newfangled 'lev' things
06:09<Pikka>feature request!
06:09<@planetmaker>anly a slight sout-easterly breeze :D
06:09<@planetmaker>bah... *only a slight...
06:09<Pikka>eh, I'll need them for the base set anyway, andy
06:09<Pikka>so might as well do newgrf versions too
06:09<andythenorth>ho ho
06:09<@planetmaker>making base set? :)
06:10<andythenorth>processed graphics is a bit of a faff to set up
06:10<andythenorth>but then you do 'make' and a whole new set of wagons appears :)
06:10<Pikka>just like that
06:11<Pikka>cargo, wagon, wagon cargo. hazzahazza, just like that
06:13<andythenorth>does renderising have the same effect?
06:13*andythenorth considers getting some renderising tool :P
06:15<@Alberth>it's called DanMack, isn't it?
06:16<andythenorth>my subscription has expired temporarily :P
06:16<@planetmaker>oh :(
06:16<@Alberth>one of the sacrifices that you have to make for getting quality sprites
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07:11<@peter1138>IE3 was nice
07:11<@peter1138>wrong channel :)
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07:43<jonty-comp>IE3 was nice though
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>i only have very vague memories of IE3
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08:06<@planetmaker>__ln__, what kind of CPU has your ancient ibook?
08:06<@planetmaker>would it run ppc64?
08:08<__ln__>my ultra modern ibook has a G4, which sadly is 32-bit only.
08:14<andythenorth>how does it even work? :P
08:15<fonsinchen>I also still have an iBook G4. Those are solid machine. Actually I also have a younger PowerBook G4 which is pretty rugged by now.
08:15<fonsinchen>I had to remove a whole lot of parts and solder the power cable directly onto the board to make it work again.
08:16<andythenorth>PowerBook G4 is a classic. Mine always got so dented, but kept on working
08:16<andythenorth>I dropped one down a flight of stairs
08:18<fonsinchen>The iBook won't get dented and it needs a pretty heavy blow to break the plastic. That's probably the reason why they're still working.
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08:22<andythenorth>you must have the rounded front kind :)
08:22<andythenorth>not the one where the front of the shell would split, then pierce your palm or wrist
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08:46<frosch123>yay, "Road speed limit: 257 km/h"
08:48<frosch123>sorry, after 20 years of ttd i noticed how silly it is to have a girder steel bridge for road vehicles
08:50<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26277 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2014-01-26 13:50:10 UTC)
08:50<@DorpsGek>-Add [FS#5849]: Display speed limit also for road bridges in the TileInfo window.
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08:52<Trainman>hey guys. Is there any way to activate, while the server is running via the console the realistic acceleration?
08:53<frosch123>try "listsettings accel"
08:53<LordAro>frosch123: but they look nice :)
08:53<@planetmaker>not sure acceleration can be changed in MP
08:56<Trainman>ty so much LordAro
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08:56<Trainman>umm. wrong one
08:56<bolli>Hi, Just a quick question: Is it possible to batch delete industries in the scenario editor? Ie remove all coal mines?
08:57<frosch123>bolli: nope
08:58<frosch123>you can reset the landscape somewhere, which removes all industries, and maybe also all towns
08:58<frosch123>cannot remember
08:58<frosch123>hmm, or did it only remove company property?
08:59<bolli>I know the reset landscape on the generate removes company property
08:59<frosch123>ah, ok, well then you can save as heightmap and load, which removes everything except height
08:59<bolli>I don't want to delete the towns however
09:00<bolli>My (complete) problem is that I've downloaded a scenario online, and I want to put ECS into it....
09:00<bolli>But that messes up all the industries
09:00<@planetmaker>and cargoes
09:01<@planetmaker>good luck really :)
09:01<bolli>is there any way to deal with it or not?
09:01<@planetmaker>none which is guaranteed to succeed. You temper with NewGRFs after map creation. Anything may happen
09:01<bolli>ok, thanks
09:03<@planetmaker>you can try. But check very carfully that all cargoes are what they are supposed to be. Also for houses / towns and for every industry type
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09:03<bolli>right, thanks :)
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09:22<frosch123>"eGRVTS Beta 1" ... how rare
09:25<andythenorth>what's the right solution to this issue?
09:27<frosch123>you can specify multiple railtypes for a vehicle in nml
09:27<frosch123>it will use the first available one
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09:27<andythenorth>and will it exclude the others?
09:27*andythenorth tests
09:27<frosch123>so you can set it to use "metro tracks" if available, and "electrified" as fallback
09:28<@planetmaker>the compatibility is defined by the railtypes
09:28<andythenorth>yeah, it just works
09:28<@planetmaker>not by the vehicle
09:28<frosch123>a vehicle only ever runs no one railtype, compatibilty to other types is defines by the railtype grf
09:28<andythenorth>so that issue is simply a non-issue
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09:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26278 trunk/known-bugs.txt (2014-01-26 14:46:41 UTC)
09:46<@DorpsGek>-Doc [FS#5817]: Transparency issues with original houses and industries.
09:47<andythenorth>one day
09:47<andythenorth>we'll learn how to make software without needing architecture
09:47<andythenorth>yeah right ;P
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09:50<andythenorth>I try really hard to write code that doesn't require a chain of grepping through multiple files to figure out what it does :P
09:50<andythenorth>but always always multiple layers are needed :P
09:50<andythenorth>and I've learnt that 'document everything' is absolutely dangerous
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09:52<andythenorth>Alberth: want to code review my insanity? It's in IH
09:53<Sacro>Intergrated hNightly?
09:53<@Alberth>simplest way would be to merge everything into one file :p
09:54<@Alberth>that would solve your "grepping through multiple files" problem :D
09:54<andythenorth>then I have a god object problem :)
09:54<andythenorth>rock, hard place
09:54<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26279 /trunk/src (rail_cmd.cpp script/api/script_rail.cpp) (2014-01-26 14:54:34 UTC)
09:54<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5853]: [NoAI] Some RemoveRail methods required to set a valid railtype, though it was not used anyway. Remove the need to set one.
09:55<@Alberth>yep, nice utopia to aim for though :)
09:55<@Alberth>what should I look at?
09:56*andythenorth had an idea
09:56<andythenorth>better not to ask
09:57<@Alberth>I mean, which files should I look at?
09:59<andythenorth>or local equivalent
10:00<andythenorth>the pipelines are kind of singletons
10:00<andythenorth>and I have to instantiate the objects by calling them after the class def
10:00<andythenorth>which seems odd
10:00<andythenorth>but :P
10:01<andythenorth>otherwise I have to go maintain a list somewhere else which seems like overhead
10:01<@planetmaker>hm, the drawing of the track overlay sprites when highlighting track reservations is somewhat broken
10:01<@planetmaker>it doesn't use the defined overlay sprites from the grf defining tracks
10:02<@Alberth>it has trailing whitespace (and looking very ugly, as I have an active highlight for them by accident)
10:03<@planetmaker>I don't see that, but there's a whitespace warning for some sprites. Probably other railtype than I toyed with :)
10:04<@planetmaker>but it's not an issue with his grf. I don't see any in the code and I get the same with swedishrails when looking where the sprites come from: the base set
10:06<andythenorth>Alberth: I had my editor set to strip trailing whitespace, but I was made to turn it off :(
10:07<@planetmaker>why that?!
10:08<@planetmaker>teach your developers to also use it ;)
10:08<@Alberth> alternative for registering
10:08<andythenorth>yeah, equivalent result, more obvious why
10:08<andythenorth>stripping whitespace creates large diffs :P
10:08<andythenorth>this causes shouting
10:09<@Alberth>planetmaker: better make the VCS reject such files instead :)
10:09<andythenorth>"you have not made atomic commits"
10:09<@planetmaker>andythenorth, just do that once for all files and done
10:09<@planetmaker>one commit only whitespace
10:09<@planetmaker>sed is your friend for that
10:09<@planetmaker>whitespace changes create the huge diffs
10:10<@planetmaker>not the once 'remove all trailing'
10:10<andythenorth>fair point
10:10<@planetmaker>I have the same issue also at work with code from collegues :S
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10:13<@planetmaker>andythenorth, and when it's about diffs, you can create the diff w/o whitespace changes: hg diff -b
10:16<@Alberth>unfortunately, that also removes checking for indenting
10:18<@Alberth> this is how you can express abstract base class methods
10:20<@Alberth> simpler way of giving pipes a name
10:20<@Alberth>btw Pipeline -> Pipe ? or PipeElement ?
10:26<@Alberth>render methods seem to have common setup options, input_path, input_image -> maybe pass them from above through the parameter list?
10:33<andythenorth>they do look common don't they
10:34<andythenorth>I was leaving them alone, in case I need to vary in future
10:35<@Alberth>you can still do that of course, since you're not hiding anything
10:35<@Alberth>but the common case would become shorter
10:36*andythenorth refactors some thigns
10:36<andythenorth>things *
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10:50<@Alberth>yw :)
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10:56<SpComb>opentd 1.4-beta3 on slashdot?
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>why wouldn't it?
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11:02<@peter1138>it's hardly news
11:04<andythenorth>slow slashdot day
11:04*andythenorth reads the comments
11:04<andythenorth>"it's lost the simplicity but the development team are hostile to adding features"
11:04<andythenorth>in one user's sentence :P
11:05<@peter1138>yes i noticed that
11:14<andythenorth>slashdot is a useful way to idenity the technically capable but incoherent people
11:14<andythenorth>then we know where they are
11:18<LordAro>andythenorth: reddit too
11:18<andythenorth>I only go on reddit occasionally
11:18<andythenorth>but reddit seems to have a sense of humour
11:18<andythenorth>slashdot...not so much
11:22<andythenorth>herp time for eye-reasting break
11:22<andythenorth>wtf is reasting?
11:22<andythenorth>retina screen = serious eyestrain
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11:37<TheZonta>Hey can i make 2 depot the same name so i train can select one of the two to get maintenance?
11:38<@Alberth>not possible, I think
11:39<@Alberth>the only way is to remove the depot orders, but then it can go to any depot at any time
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11:40<TheZonta>Or i can force then by making a waypoint and no depot order
11:41<Andreas>yes, but that does still mean they can try to find a depor earlier in the route
11:41<Andreas>or worst on a differen brach (if there are any)
11:53<andythenorth>just turned a *huge* image into RGB
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13:44<hjbviuerbgv>warning warning warning
13:44<hjbviuerbgv> .... you may be watched !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
13:44<hjbviuerbgv>do uas&israel use the internet (chat,facebook, twitter,ect.....) to collect informations,,,
13:44<hjbviuerbgv>can we call that.................. spying................?
13:44<hjbviuerbgv>هل تستخدم امريكا واسرائيل الانترنت بمواقعه( فيس بوك, تويتر,يوتيوب.....) للتجسسس؟؟؟؟؟؟؟
13:44<hjbviuerbgv>warning warning warning
13:44<hjbviuerbgv> .... you may be watched !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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13:45<@planetmaker>@kban hjbviuerbgv
13:45-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!~hjbviuerb@] by DorpsGek
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13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26280 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2014-01-26 18:45:54 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
13:46<@DorpsGek>french - 1 changes by glx
13:46<@DorpsGek>korean - 8 changes by telk5093
13:46<@DorpsGek>slovenian - 5 changes by ntadej
13:46<@DorpsGek>welsh - 1 changes by kazzie
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15:43<luaduck>am I reading the internets right in that I need to patch the server to load heightmaps?
15:43<luaduck>surely there's a switch or something I can use
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15:46<frosch123>prepare the savegame on your client, then transfer it to the server
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15:47<luaduck>attempting that gives me a invalid chunk size error
15:52<frosch123>then you have either a patched server, or a patched client
15:52<frosch123>and they are incompatible
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15:52<luaduck>saw that coming
15:52<LSky>saw that coming
15:53<frosch123>you wouldn't be able to join that server either
15:53<frosch123>are you still dealing with that daylength patch?
15:54<frosch123>maybe you forgot to bump the savegame version when updating the patch or something
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16:27<andythenorth>good night
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16:42<@planetmaker>good night
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23:37<Pikka>planetmaker: did you implement custom tiles for railway junctions, or did I dream that?
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---Logclosed Mon Jan 27 00:00:49 2014