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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-01-27

---Logopened Mon Jan 27 00:00:49 2014
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01:04<dihedral>good morning
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02:21<@planetmaker>Pikka, what do you mean with 'custom tiles'? I guess the answer is 'no', as nothing changed there really. Junctions still are composed by the underlay and the 6 possible overlay sprites
02:22<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: try getting michi_cc to work on it :)
02:23<Pikka>okay, when I get to tracks, I will. and I'll make the sprites first. :)
02:30<@peter1138>i did a patch for it
02:33<@peter1138>heh, also a patch for 32 rail types
02:33<Pikka>oh, it was you, peter :D
02:43<Japa>I wonder how much performance loss there would be by adding support for checking surrounding tiles with terrain sprites
02:47<@peter1138>it's from r25057 though
02:47<@peter1138>Japa, try it
02:48<Japa>Would need 9 bytes per tile to store the surrounding terrain data
02:48<Japa>peter1138, I intend to, as soon as I get all the required stuff for compiling downloaded
02:49<@peter1138>^ never tested ;p
02:51<Japa>Something like this.
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03:05<@planetmaker>Japa, you don't need to 'store' the surrounding tile data'. They're all there, on the map
03:05<@planetmaker>It only needs the usual action2 stuff
03:06<Japa>it's just a question of doing it when rendering or not
03:07<@planetmaker>I'd got for tile type, for terrain type and maybe height. i.e. canals var. 80 and 81, maybe also 83
03:08<Japa>brb, restarting windows
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03:08<Eddi|zuHause>this is probably very inconsistent in openttd, as there are multiple different methods used
03:08<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. shore tiles and snow transition
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03:09<Eddi|zuHause>those actually store their state in the map
03:09<Eddi|zuHause>while houses etc. (can) use the adjacent tiles directly
03:10<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. the snow method has the problem that it doesn't work for rails or houses
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03:18<Japa>planetmaker, anyway, since I have really not at all looked much at the source code, I kinda need a bit to familiarize myself with where everything is
03:27<Eddi|zuHause>Japa: it's all very complicated to map this method onto openttd, because you can't assume that you know all possible tiles. the NewGRFs may add more houses, railtypes, stations etc. or they can change the appearance of water, snow, ...
03:29<Eddi|zuHause>the current method has some problematic restrictions, like you can't have snowy shores or snow-desert transitions
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03:36<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, the snow method can be externalized, by simply looking at the snowline. That probably would be a good step
03:36<@planetmaker>And later would also allow to retain fields, fences etc under snow
03:37<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: problem with snowline-based checks is that they change instantly, instead of gradually
03:38<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, yes I know that restriction. It's not impossible to retain, though. E.g. It could be changed gradually on a random pattern base or so
03:38<@planetmaker>having tile number as input
03:39<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: how would that help?
03:39<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: you'd still have to store whether it uses the old or the new state
03:39<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, how is it done differently now?
03:40<@planetmaker>when snowline changes, the snowy state changes during tile loop
03:40<Eddi|zuHause>current state is (for free tiles) => snowline changes => during tileloop the snow counter is changed
03:40<Eddi|zuHause>for rail tiles, it only stores "no snow" or "snow"
03:40<Eddi|zuHause>so during the tileloop, it will instantly change between none or full snow
03:41<@planetmaker>it's not like the current way snowyness changes is sacrosanct. It's not. Important is that it somewhat gradually recesses
03:42<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: so you need a pattern that is not too repetetive, and that is "monotonous" when it changes, and it doesn't change many pieces at the same time?
03:42<@planetmaker>the current pattern is exactly repetitive
03:42<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but if touching the code, might solve that while at it :)
03:43<@planetmaker>but that means there's not really anything to loose, if snowline is globalized
03:43<@planetmaker>and you win a bit on map array
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03:45<Eddi|zuHause>so you need a new array that has (number of height steps)x(number of stage changes (currently 16-ish)) entries, and some kind of pseudorandom access which of the entries of the stage the tile accesses
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03:47<@planetmaker>err, no?
03:47<Eddi|zuHause>and some way to gradually change the stage between two changes of snowline height
03:48<Eddi|zuHause>well you could make some round-robin-style storage that only focuses on a window around the snowline +-2
03:48<@planetmaker>you just need a function with input tile# which returns something(tile#) ? snowline_old : snowline_new
03:48<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: a table serves perfectly well as a function
03:49<@planetmaker>well, could
03:49<@planetmaker>stage changes is 16?
03:49<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: and with this table it's easy to ensure that the changes are "small" and "monotonous"
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03:49<@planetmaker>that adds another unknown into it
03:49<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: could be 256
03:50<@planetmaker>which currently is drivern by snowline height
03:50<@planetmaker>So small an monotonous should be governed there
03:50<@planetmaker>or you have two things stearing the same thing
03:50<Eddi|zuHause>well let's assume 256
03:50<Eddi|zuHause>then every tick, one of the entries could be reduced by 1
03:51<Eddi|zuHause>(or increased, depending on which way the snowline changed)
03:51<@planetmaker>you don't want 256 snowyness states
03:51*LordAro mornings
03:51<Eddi|zuHause>you probably misunderstand
03:52<@planetmaker>moin LordAro
03:52<Eddi|zuHause>"256 stages" means "every tick 1 out of 256 tiles changes snowyness"
03:52<Eddi|zuHause>which is what the tileloop currently does
03:54<@planetmaker>anyway, the whole point is: there's no need to keep the snowyness bit on the map. On the contrary
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04:41<Japa>Eddi|zuHause, what I'm trying to do doesn't care about railtypes or houses
04:41<Japa>just whatever's on clear ground
04:41<Eddi|zuHause>Japa: the rails ARE on the clear ground (in the base set)
04:42<Eddi|zuHause>(yes, the game is weird like that)
04:43<@planetmaker>yeah, the game is very weired and limited in that respect
04:43<Japa>Yes, I know, but weather there's rails on it or not doesn't effect what I'm doing, which is making transitions between the various values of the ClearGround enum
04:44<Japa>enum ClearGround {CLEAR_GRASS = 0,CLEAR_ROUGH = 1,CLEAR_ROCKS = 2,CLEAR_FIELDS = 3,CLEAR_SNOW = 4,CLEAR_DESERT = 5,};
04:44<Japa>This stuff
04:45<Japa>which is hardcoded, rather than being in the newgrf
04:45<Eddi|zuHause>but that won't work already with the snow transition and the desert transition
04:45<Eddi|zuHause>which is not part of this enum
04:46<Eddi|zuHause>also: shores
04:46<Japa>Shores are already taken care of, aren't they?
04:46<Eddi|zuHause>and just because it's hardcoded now doesn't mean it will stay that way
04:47<Eddi|zuHause>Japa: only grass shores, not snow shores or desert shores
04:48<Pikka>I have invented the cow
04:49<Japa>Pikka, do you want cow reference images?
04:49<Pikka>there's a joke here, I fear
04:50<Pikka>it'll look like a cow when it's textured and 8 pixels long, don't worry :D
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04:51<Japa>Eddi|zuHause, that is true. Anyway, even if stuff is not hardcoded, all you'd need is to have each terrain type have a border priority, for what transitions go over what
05:00<@planetmaker>Japa, fields are not clear ground
05:00<Japa>They also can live with not having transitions
05:00<@peter1138>border priority
05:00<Japa>since they would be expected not to be
05:00<@peter1138>so simple ;p
05:02<@planetmaker>Japa, I guess shores are a bit different as the transition there is on the tile itself from water to land
05:02<@planetmaker>though... peculiarities suck :P
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05:43<Aristide>Hiii ! :)
05:43<dihedral>i think the map should simply be vector graphics :-D
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06:36<Xaroth|Work>dihedral: and store it using xml?
06:37<@peter1138>3d openttd, do it
06:40<V453000>or else
06:41<__ln__>oculus vr
06:43<__ln__>is there any trick to use the current graphics so that it gets an illusion of depth?
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06:46<__ln__>i suppose drawing the windows at a different depth would be slightly easier, leaving the terrain flat.
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07:07<dihedral>pm: this guys speaks english just like you do :-D
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07:13<Japa>__ln__, it's theoretically possible
07:14<Aristide>Oyeah !
07:14<Aristide>Lot of monney *o*
07:14<Aristide>So, Its time to parse bus line list from Simutrans save ? :x
07:14<Aristide>openttd sorry x)
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07:17<@planetmaker>more wood!
07:53<dihedral>that is an odd request :-P
07:59<Aristide> More monney !
07:59<Aristide>Can you add a feature for extract money from game to IRL
07:59<Aristide>? :D
07:59<Xaroth|Work>if only
08:00<Aristide>I try to create a « only bus » network :x
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08:17<andythenorth>bleargh layering more on more
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08:18<MNIM>dihedral: well, how else are you going to burn a heathen?
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what's your problem with that?
08:19<andythenorth>genuine bloat
08:19<andythenorth>the more crap we add, the harder it is to do anything interesting
08:19<@peter1138>all of it
08:20<@peter1138>but start with something crazy like a graphics engine
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the biggest problem with this problem is that it's a zombieproblem. it keeps getting fixed in some patchpack and then reappears in the next patchpack because the fix was not backpoorted so the original patch is still broken
08:20<andythenorth>also I disagree with all daylength stuff, but there's no useful conversation there :P
08:21<andythenorth>peter1138: or just leave it be :) Maybe fix some ui bugs. Maybe it's kind of 'done' for the big stuff
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes, just forget all the things people want... daylength, heightlevels, climates, destinations, ...
08:22<andythenorth>I actually think that's the most interesting idea
08:22<andythenorth>declare OpenTTD closed for big new features
08:22<andythenorth>keep polishing
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>i should have put a bigger irony marker
08:22<andythenorth>see if some other group of people pop up with a reimplementation
08:23<andythenorth>it's all kind of moot anyway :)
08:23<Xaroth|Work>andythenorth: weren't you fighting with multiprocessing for your sprites?
08:24<andythenorth>Xaroth|Work: yes I was
08:24<Xaroth|Work>has a creative sollution
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08:24<Xaroth|Work>allll the way to the bottom
08:28<andythenorth>ho ho
08:29<Xaroth|Work>ho ho as in , interesting, or useless?
08:29<andythenorth>so that's almost exactly my case, the code in the last few examples is so close to my actual code...
08:29<andythenorth>I'll have to try map
08:29<Xaroth|Work>might be worth it
08:30<andythenorth>the actual problem I have is that something in the error handling machinery crashes hard
08:30<andythenorth>so errors cause the python process to lock up in a way I have never seen before :)
08:31<Japa>Bah, the ottd source is more complex than I feared. It will take quite a bit to get a feel for the drawing pipeline
08:31<andythenorth>it's making me get good at debugging code with no error output :P
08:31<andythenorth>source inspection
08:31<Xaroth|Work>I hate those bugs that don't give pointers where something is wrong
08:32<andythenorth>otoh, I wote about 30 flash games before I knew what a debugger was
08:33<andythenorth>so I learnt to debug using judiciously inserted prints
08:34*LordAro still finds that easier (in some cases)
08:35*andythenorth tries to figure out why is better than pool.async() for this image processing case
08:36<andythenorth>async probably isn't necessary, because this can block and wait
08:36<andythenorth>but still...
08:37<@planetmaker>Japa, the drawing pipeline is indeed quite interesting :D
08:38<@planetmaker>Japa, I have a still not properly working patch queue for grids as transparency option. Maybe that gives you some hints...
08:38<@planetmaker> or a bit newer in (check for bookmark 'grid')
08:48<andythenorth>Xaroth|Work: by switching to map() the job completes in about 6s instead of 14s :D
08:48<andythenorth>dunno if the error handling is any better by avoiding async
08:49<andythenorth>I need to try varying the number of workers in the pool as well
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08:52<Andreas>grids as transparency option sounds nice
08:52<Andreas>they are usefull sometimes, but also look ugly in some situations
08:52<@planetmaker>it's a pain with half tile foundations
08:58<andythenorth>ha the method seems to handle errors better than apply_async()
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09:11<MNIM>planetmaker: is there a summary somewhere of FIRS economies? (1.3.0)
09:12<@planetmaker>did you try the documentation?
09:12<@planetmaker>honestly the main author would know better than me
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09:14<MNIM>oh, right. thought you were said author.
09:17<andythenorth>he he
09:18<andythenorth>I don't mind if the world thinks that :)
09:18<andythenorth>means I don't have to do support o_O
09:18<andythenorth>MNIM: in case you didn't find it
09:18<MNIM>oh right, it was you
09:18<MNIM>andythenorth: thanks, find it now.
09:19<MNIM>planetmaker: thanks, too ^.^;
09:19<andythenorth>planetmaker: the FIRS in-game content link goes to devzone, not docs
09:19<andythenorth>I should change that, right?
09:19<andythenorth>docs are the most useful thing?
09:19<MNIM>seems like a good idea
09:20<@planetmaker>dunno. Might be, yes. Do the docs link to devzone?
09:23<andythenorth>one reason I didn't link them was...I can't remember :P
09:23<andythenorth>maybe bundles server was being rebuilt or such
09:23<andythenorth>there was some reason anyway
09:24<andythenorth>oh, maybe it was linking them to the correct version
09:24<MNIM>planetmaker: might want to add an extra link to the docs in the FIRS forum thread, as well
09:25<MNIM>I see now that it's in your sig as well, but that's a bit late. :P
09:26<andythenorth>you might annoy him :)
09:26<andythenorth>you should probably direct those requests at me :)
09:26<@planetmaker>well, with bundles server you need to know the path, andythenorth
09:26<@planetmaker>like the release version. Or whatever is the nightlies
09:27<MNIM>dear &*E*&$
09:27<MNIM>I keep confusing you two
09:27<MNIM>I have no idea why.
09:27<@planetmaker>or you just link to the general firs dir
09:27<MNIM>it must be too early in the morning >.<
09:28<@planetmaker> <-- would give you the numeric part of the dirname for nightly builds / push builds
09:28<andythenorth>MNIM: I added a docs link to top FIRS release thread
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09:28<@planetmaker>strange, I never confused myself with andy :P
09:29<andythenorth>ditto :)
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09:30<andythenorth>I'm just going to link to latest
09:30<andythenorth>people should update :P
09:30<@planetmaker>that's fair enough
09:30<@planetmaker>but releases / nightlies differ there, still
09:30<andythenorth>meh, I've already done it apparently
09:31<andythenorth>I must have done it just around 1.3.0
09:31<@planetmaker>he :)
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09:35<UukGoblin>I can't get the music under control
09:36<UukGoblin>I'm using pulseaudio with a bluetooth speaker
09:36<UukGoblin>and when I start OpenTTD it plays fine - both sounds and music goes out of that bluetooth speaker
09:36<UukGoblin>however after the first iteration of music finishes, it starts playing it out the built-in soundcard :-O
09:37<UukGoblin>initially, I have timidity as an app in pavucontrol and I can control which soundcard it goes out of
09:37<UukGoblin>but after the first loop of music, timidity vanishes and it seems that midi playback is outside of pavucontrol's control :-)
09:37*andythenorth crashed python again
09:39<@planetmaker>UukGoblin, what sound and music driver does openttd report? ./openttd --help gives info on available drivers)
09:40<UukGoblin>planetmaker, music is 'extmidi' and 'null'; sound is 'sdl' and 'null'
09:40<UukGoblin>using a debian package, version 1.3.3-1+b1
09:42<@planetmaker>and what OS is that exactly? Debian wheezy?
09:42*andythenorth wishes nml was amenable to multiprocessing :P
09:42<UukGoblin>it's sid, actually...
09:42<UukGoblin>it started as wheezy though, I think
09:43<@planetmaker>right. With sid I also have issues with sound output. Totally unrelated to OpenTTD
09:43<UukGoblin>ah, ok :-/
09:43<UukGoblin>know of any workarounds, perhaps an env variable to force SDL to use pulseaudio?
09:43<@planetmaker>on wheezy that all works fine
09:43<@planetmaker>sorry, I didn't find a workaround
09:44<UukGoblin>k, thanks
09:45*andythenorth contemplates writing one grf per item, then decompiling, concetenating, and recompiling
09:45<@planetmaker>but I believe something outside OpenTTD must be broken there in the sound mixer / pulse audio or so
09:46<@planetmaker>andythenorth, care to teach NML some multi-processing rather? :)
09:46<andythenorth>I would be quite lost tbh :)
09:46<@planetmaker>it's not monolithic code ;)
09:46<@planetmaker>you're not afraid to hack at everything else :P
09:46<andythenorth>afaik, there is one big scan to find action 2 IDs that we can't avoid
09:47<andythenorth>I would almost consider putting some of the work back on the author
09:47<andythenorth>if we could scope as 'global' or 'local' we could bound all the action 2 IDs to the current item
09:48<@planetmaker>I don't think so. It goes through the action list and assignes numeric IDs to the items as it goes
09:48<UukGoblin>so extmidi is just using pmidi, right?
09:48<andythenorth>the tal (chameleon) spec has explicit globals, otherwise vars are bounded to current scope
09:48<andythenorth>anyway, trying to fix it is fruitless without some profiling data :D
09:49<@planetmaker>as such NML can run into 'out of action2 IDs' as it processes things
09:50<@planetmaker>global and local definition could be forced / indicated by a 'global' keyword or so
09:50<andythenorth>I am far too bad a programmer to know if that is a good route
09:50<andythenorth>and it relies a lot on authors doing the right thing with knowledge
09:50<andythenorth>which isn't good with a copy-paste code culture :D
09:52<andythenorth>we need a profiling geek first? o_O
09:53<UukGoblin>planetmaker, stopped system-wide timidity with /etc/init.d/timidity stop, then started timidity as the `goblin` user (the same user that runs the game and the pulseaudio session)
09:53<UukGoblin>seems to have helped
09:54<UukGoblin>I think maybe the system-wide timidity, running as the `timidity` user, didn't have access to my user pulseaudio session
09:55<UukGoblin>I don't know why it worked for the first loop of music though ;-)
09:57<UukGoblin>no, changing the track from the jukebox didn't trigger the soundcard switch... now that it finished on its own, it switched to the wrong card again, so my fix didn't really work :-(
09:58<UukGoblin>timidity is still running as my user, and no other timidity instance is running... I wonder what actually plays the midi now :-O
09:59<V453000>you nerds should go play toyland, that would solve all of your issues
09:59<UukGoblin>it keeps playing even after I killed it
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10:01<UukGoblin>hm, I have a process named 'extmidi' though... I wonder where the binary is :-)
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10:02<@planetmaker>which extmidi :)
10:02<UukGoblin>the /proc/PID/exe was symlinking to `timidity`, although in `ps axwu` it appeared as `extimidi` ;-)
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10:03<UukGoblin>right, if I use `timidity somefile.mid`, it goes out the built-in soundcard, so I guess I need to configure timidity
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10:13<andythenorth>we could instrument up nml with profile module
10:18<UukGoblin>planetmaker, right, I've created a timidity-wrapper which calls `timidity -Os $*`, and now running openttd -m extmidi:cmd=/path/to/that/timidity-wrapper
10:18<UukGoblin>seems to have fixed it permanently. :-)
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10:28<slee>hello, i'm new to openttd, i started my game with year 2025...i was able to buy 1 locomotive for a track, but i built a 2nd track and when i try to buy a new train, i nolonger see any locomotives...why is that?
10:31<lugo>have you tried building mag-lev or mono-rail?
10:32<slee>aaah, could the trains have upgraded to electric and i nolonger see diesel engines? i need to upgrade my tracks to electric?
10:35<lugo>worth a try i guess. I normally play with NewGRFs so i don't know about vanilla engines too much..
10:36<slee>thanks, i'll try upgrading tracks
10:40<@planetmaker>slee, in 2025 normal rail engines might not be available any longer. Use monorail or maglev
10:40<@planetmaker>(or enable 'vehicles never expire')
10:41<slee>planetmaker, correect, i upgraded to electric, diesel had become obsolete, thanks
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10:52<slee>what is a good 'NewGRF' for vehicles?
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10:54<@planetmaker>what do you want?
10:54<@planetmaker>what is 'good'?
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10:54<Flygon>And what sort?
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10:54<slee>i'm guessing it's just new graphics for existing vehicles? or does it give you new vehicles?
10:55<Flygon>It depends on the NewGRF
10:55<@planetmaker>FISH ship set, av8 aircraft, heqs vehicles, and then a normal vehicle and a normal train set
10:55<Flygon>Some give new graphics, some add new things to the game
10:55<slee>is there a link with a list of them i can view?
10:55<@planetmaker>and no, NewGRF is 'new game ressource file'. They usually change how stuff behaves
10:55<Flygon>I've never actually used heqs... and I keep forgetting how to spell eGTVRS
10:56<@planetmaker>he, I neve rcan spell that either ;)
10:56<Flygon>slee: The game has an internal NewGRF downloader
10:57<Flygon>And a lot of downloadable content (not just NewGRFs) has a website link associated
10:57<slee>Flygon, yes, i was just wondering if there was a resource page that listed them with details/images
10:57<Flygon>That's what the associated website link usually shows off
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10:59<@planetmaker>slee, there are some pages in the openttd wiki which list (some) NewGRFs with a brief description
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11:00<@planetmaker>sorted by categories. Maybe that helps (too)
11:00<slee>thanks, i found it
11:00<@planetmaker>but those lists tend to be rather incomplete usually
11:00<@planetmaker>slee, you can also go ingame, to the content downloader and use the text input box there to search for things
11:01<@planetmaker>e.g. 'train' and you'll get a list of NewGRFs which somehow deal with trains (have it in their name or description)
11:05<slee>haha, this is cool, grabbed the egtvrs file, added horse/carriages
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11:17<slee>ok, i've loaded eGRVTSv1.0, FISH, av8 Aviators and HEQS...bit i see in game 'trains' button is greyed out, what is a good(popular) train file?
11:18<@planetmaker>there's many, really many. Hence the question 'what is good? What do you want?'
11:18<@planetmaker>many cater for one country or region. The name gives it away
11:18<slee>i'm guessing just a basic train that can do all the normal operations
11:18<@planetmaker>and then there's OpenGFX+Trains, NUTS, 2ccTrainset
11:19<@planetmaker>and other more niche sets
11:22<Japa>I'm fond of NUTS, myself
11:22<Japa>because it focuses more on game balance than recreating the engines of the world
11:29<slee>ssomething else i've noticed on different maps, some have oil rigs out in the water, some don't, what determines if there are oil rigs on the map?
11:29<@planetmaker>they can only appear after 1970
11:30<@planetmaker>and possibly also climate. And of course industry NewGRFs
11:43<Japa>Oh dear
11:43<Japa>Visual studio has been "Getting things ready" for an hour so far
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11:49<luaduck>Looking at doing some cross-platform OTTD patched builds, what does the team use for build automation? Jenkins crosses my mind
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12:11<Japa>Is there a better source for sprite numbers besides just reading through sprites.h?
12:11<Japa>Or is that pretty much it
12:13<@planetmaker>opengfx source is also pretty good
12:13<@planetmaker>sometimes better :)
12:14<@planetmaker>sometimes worse :P
12:15<@planetmaker> maybe
12:15<@planetmaker>you're only interested really in the part which is prefixed ogfx1_base
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12:17<Japa>Then again, a very small amount of thought makes me realize I was thinking in the wrong direction anyway
12:18<@planetmaker>the extra NewGRF adds sprites after that. Those offsets are defined in sprites.h as you found
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12:19<Japa>wondering what sprite ids to use for the border stuff, since there's 32 sprite per terrain type needed
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12:19<@planetmaker>ehm... Japa, you cannot require 32bpp sprites
12:19<@planetmaker>only 8bpp
12:20<@planetmaker>which sprite (8bpp / 32bpp) and zoom level - that's totally different from sprite numbers
12:20<@planetmaker>what you can only do is draw several sprites on top of eachother
12:21<Japa>hence me realizing I'm thinking in the wrong direction
12:21<@planetmaker>the 32bpp sprites have alpha. Thus can blend transparently in any ratio. 8bpp only knows transparent yes/no
12:21<@planetmaker>thus what you want is an overlay with the transition sprites as needed
12:21<Japa>yes, that
12:21<@planetmaker>the transition sprite being same size as the tile. And allowing the sprite itself to define transparency as needed
12:22<Japa>exactly what I was planning.
12:22<Japa>it can still work fine with 8bpp, by the way
12:22<@planetmaker>quite so, yes
12:23<@planetmaker>it makes absolutely no difference with that project
12:23<Japa>it's just less glaring an issue than with the extra zoom levels
12:23<@planetmaker>8bpp has the same zoom levels...
12:23<@planetmaker>zoom is not bit depth dependent
12:23<Japa>yes, but you don't usually see people making extra zoom levels for 8bpp :P
12:24<@planetmaker>yet. But you don't see 32bpp really either
12:24<@planetmaker>Though I have the feeling that will change this year
12:24<Japa>anyway, I have quite a bit of code study ahead of me until I can really do anything.
12:24<@planetmaker>long enough in trunk so that people start to actually use the new capabilities :)
12:25<Japa>such as learning how newgrfs are loaded
12:25<@planetmaker>yeah... there's thorny code pieces ahead
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12:25<Japa>and figuring out how I want to specify the new sprites
12:25<@planetmaker>you don't exactly need to worry about newgrfs too much (yet)
12:25<@planetmaker>sprite definition is in my grid patch queue
12:26<@planetmaker>that's rather easy (though a bit lengthy)
12:26<@planetmaker>and needs patches to grfcodec and nml
12:27<Japa>well, I'll need a way to specify the 32 new sprites per land type
12:27<@planetmaker>no, you don't need to worry about that
12:27<@planetmaker>you just need overlays.
12:28<@planetmaker>oh... 32 sprites? not 32bpp? yes
12:28<@planetmaker>a new action5 entry
12:28<@planetmaker> <-- patches 010 ... 030
12:29<@planetmaker>err... 060 actually
12:29<Japa>there's a sprite for each combination of four edge borders
12:29<Japa>and each combination of four corners
12:29<@planetmaker>yup. I read a bpp where there was none :)
12:30<slee> iron ore mine has vanished, i'm guessing i depleted it, is there a setting to keep them from depleting...or possibly a grf?
12:30<Japa>yeah, there's a setting
12:31<slee>quak/moin are grfs?
12:32<Japa>Anyway, gonna sleep on it
12:32<@planetmaker>hahaha :) That's good, slee. They're greetings :)
12:36<@planetmaker>slee, there's manual industries grf. But you need a new map to make that work. Industries when not serviced well tend to close. That's usual behaviour in default game
12:36<@planetmaker>they don't close, if well serviced
12:39<slee>so sending more vehicles to pick stuff up will help increase it's output?
12:39<@planetmaker>full load also helps
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12:42<slee>ok, i have a train with 4 hoppers(coal), but they never get full
12:42<slee>what do i need to do to help the mine produce faster?
12:42<@planetmaker>won't happen at an iron ore mine
12:43<@planetmaker>they need to be refit to the cargo you try to pickup
12:43<slee>sorry, i have 4 coal cars going to a coal mine, but the mine output never increases to help fill them
12:44<@planetmaker>if the train is in the station which covers the mine with its pickup area, and the train is on full load, then it will eventually load
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12:45<slee>oh, set the train to sit there until it's full
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12:51<slee>oh geeeez, i set a local authority to redo the roads, trying to get in good standings with the town, but now it's trashed the roads and my deliveries
12:53<frosch123>"road refunding" is something you should only do in your opponent's towns
12:54<frosch123>if you want to make the town happy, you should plant trees on fields
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13:07<slee> there some type of like 'warehouse' where you can send it multiple products from different mines/etc and have your transport vehicles pick them up from a hub?
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13:09<@planetmaker>it's called station
13:09<slee>right, but doesn't a station only work with the product it's next to?
13:10<@planetmaker>please read-up on different kind of orders you can give and how they work :) Especially transfer orders
13:11<Andreas>slee, if you want to make them look nice you can use ISR grf or something similar :)
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13:15<Elyon>how does the trunk cardodist handle "transfer and leave empty" orders?
13:17<Andreas>as fas as I have seen from my test games, same as unload and leave empty
13:17<Andreas>in other words some cargo will still use it as destination in stead of only a transfer
13:18<Andreas>but I might be wrong
13:18<Elyon>ah, alright. I will keep cargo set to manual in my desert games, then :)
13:20<Andreas>*noob question* how can I clone a different revision than trunk with mercurial (or is it not possible?)
13:27<@planetmaker>you usually clone all revisions and update to the one you're interested in
13:28<@planetmaker>you can use hg clone -updaterev REV URL
13:28<@planetmaker>(see hg help clone)
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13:35<Eddi|zuHause><Japa> wondering what sprite ids to use for the border stuff, since there's 32 sprite per terrain type needed <-- generally you would add a new action5 type to the specs, and then add the sprites to openttd.grf and to opengfx_extra.grf
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13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26281 /trunk/src/lang (9 files) (2014-01-27 18:45:52 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
13:46<@DorpsGek>danish - 1 changes by Knogle
13:46<@DorpsGek>dutch - 1 changes by habell
13:46<@DorpsGek>german - 2 changes by planetmaker
13:46<@DorpsGek>italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
13:46<@DorpsGek>korean - 1 changes by telk5093
13:46<@DorpsGek>norwegian_bokmal - 1 changes by cuthbert
13:46<@DorpsGek>slovak - 1 changes by Milsa
13:46<@DorpsGek>spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
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14:27<andythenorth>if I just randomise buy costs, is that wrong? o_O
14:27<frosch123>will anyone notice?
14:28<andythenorth>oh we have people in the community who will notice
14:28<andythenorth>guaranteed :)
14:28<frosch123>make it depend on the year
14:28<andythenorth>make it depend on the month
14:28<andythenorth>discounts after christmas
14:29<frosch123>i meant introyear only, but ok :p
14:29<andythenorth>once a year sale
14:29<frosch123>discount after christmas sounds legit
14:29<andythenorth>if you can be bothered to wait
14:29<andythenorth>are costs part of cb36?
14:29*andythenorth looks
14:29<andythenorth>oh they are :)
14:29<frosch123>crap :p
14:30<andythenorth>special price on April 1?
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14:30<NCommander>Afternoon all
14:30<frosch123>free on feb 29 ?
14:30<greeter>greetings NCommander
14:30*NCommander is looking at diving back into OpenTTD
14:30<NCommander>Been ages since the last time I fired it up :-)
14:31<greeter>do it :-D
14:31<andythenorth>also free on the player's birthday (put it in as a parameter)
14:31<frosch123>discount codes via newgrf parameters?
14:32<andythenorth>GS can't modify these vehicle properties? o_O
14:33<frosch123>gs can send your vehicles to depot, and sell them
14:33<frosch123>if they don't like them
14:33<@planetmaker>lol, frosch123! What an insane idea!
14:33*NCommander still remembers one game where when upgrading my railroad from steam, I ended up preserving a bunch of older trains, and built a small hertiage branch where they still rain
14:34<@planetmaker>(and actually a quite viable one. Nice for easter eggs - I'll keep that in mind)
14:34<Prof_Frink>andythenorth: Make everything free for one random day each year, then write an AI that abuses that fact.
14:34<greeter>hmm sounds like it'd be interesting
14:34<frosch123>planetmaker: "you are playing with your little brother" - "sometimes the destroys stuff"
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14:35<@planetmaker>the destroying stuff is for GS, though
14:35*andythenorth considers a refurb / secondhand market
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14:35<andythenorth>we really should make a ChaosMonkeyGS
14:35<NCommander>Prof_Frink, reminds me of the AI that abused things like having vehicles going one way, then selling them, still making a profit and increasing efficenty
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14:36<@planetmaker>that AI still exists
14:36<@planetmaker>and it actually helped to fix a few real exploits
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14:40<Der_Herr>i have a question concerning GameScript
14:41<@planetmaker>then you should simply ask it and hope someone knows
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14:41<@planetmaker>@topic get -3
14:41<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: English only
14:41<Der_Herr>i think i noticed a shift in the company id by -1 (starting index now;: 0). if i remember right the previous starting index was 1. do i remember wrong or did it change?
14:41*NCommander hits his internet
14:42-!-planetmaker changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.4.0-beta3, 1.3.3 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | Don't ask to ask | for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices
14:43<@planetmaker>companyID 0 was always the server itself
14:43<frosch123>don't mix companyid and clientid
14:43<@planetmaker>hm :)
14:44<frosch123>but yes, company 0 is the first human player, sometimes called player 1
14:44<frosch123>but well, what does it matter, they all have names
14:45<Der_Herr>so companyid 0 is the right one for the first company?
14:45<frosch123>yes, it should be 0 to 14
14:45<andythenorth>random costs might actually be good
14:45<Der_Herr>hm k
14:45<andythenorth>most sets have a few engines that are equally good, and this makes for fewer boring choices
14:46<andythenorth>just choose the cheapest on current spot price
14:46<andythenorth>next time it might be different
14:47<frosch123>well, vehicles get their purchase price as worth
14:47<frosch123>so, you cannot trade with vehicles :p
14:47<frosch123>they do not gain worth
14:47<andythenorth>I wonder how to implement it
14:47<andythenorth>I could provide a high and low value, and then randomise 3 values in between
14:48<frosch123>hmm, actually you might be able to sell an expensive vehicle and buy a cheaper new one
14:48<andythenorth>or I could look at dates or such
14:48<Andreas>well actually afiak few sets have trains that are 'equally good' usually 1 will have higher power or reliability
14:48<Andreas>but if you play with breakdowns disabled (like most) they are equal :p
14:48<frosch123>take the date in days, divide it by 13, xor some random number, and do modulo some prime number
14:49<andythenorth>and varying power would be...interesting :)
14:49<frosch123>nuts does some of these things
14:49<frosch123>but you cannot change stuff depending on date
14:49<frosch123>that desyncs
14:49<frosch123>but you can do it like nuts and rerandomise on load/unload
14:50<andythenorth>will it desync if only in the buy menu?
14:50<andythenorth>running costs I don't really care
14:50<andythenorth>running costs are mostly 'blah' anyway
14:51<frosch123>randomizing power only in purchase menu?
14:51<andythenorth>bit mean :)
14:51<frosch123>you mean making it depend on build date
14:51<frosch123>yes, build date is fine
14:51<frosch123>you just cannot randomly change stats while the vehicle is running
14:51<andythenorth>nah, I don't want to do that
14:51<andythenorth>this is purchase time only
14:52<andythenorth>ho would I be able to have two different depot 'buy' windows open with different costs? o_O
14:52<frosch123>making it depend on companyid would be mean :p
14:52<andythenorth>might be amusing
14:52<Andreas>lol, I think you have been infected by the chaos monkey
14:53<andythenorth>'you have invested in electric traction, your costs are now lower for electric engines'
14:53<andythenorth>ha ha
14:53<andythenorth>can I read any vars off the company or the HQ?
14:53<Andreas>electric traction?
14:53*andythenorth ponders a GS that offers investment choices, which modify vehicles
14:53<frosch123>andythenorth: company id and company colours
14:54<frosch123>red trains are cheaper :p
14:54<andythenorth>I was looking for somewhere for GS to dump some vars I could read with newgrf
14:54<Andreas>I like that goal gs that takes money from other companies if you achieve certain stuff
14:54<andythenorth>frosch123: but red ships cost more...
14:55<andythenorth>and blue trucks are cheap, but blue planes are frighteningly expensive
14:55<andythenorth>this could be done by base costs without touching newgrf?
14:55<andythenorth>without touching newgrf *vehicles* /s
14:55<frosch123>planetmaker: you should do a rainbow gs which switches company colours 5 times per day
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14:57<@planetmaker>frosch123, that's gs-nuts. That should tell you who should write it ;)
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14:57<andythenorth>why is no-one writing funny GS?
14:58<frosch123>aww, there are no api functions for the colours
14:58<Andreas>andythenorth, may I conclude from this that you are actually bored with the game, and now want it to randomly annoy/enjoy you?
14:58<frosch123>only for the president gender
14:59<andythenorth>Andreas: I have been bored with the game since about 2008
14:59<andythenorth>frosch123: I believe you have commit rights :P
15:00<frosch123>for how long? :p
15:00<andythenorth>depends how funny the results are
15:01<Andreas>I think some people might have a different notion of 'funny"
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15:46<FLHerne>Is there a straightforward way to check the orientation of a neighbouring NewObject (from another one) in NML? 'nearby_tile_object_type' will tell me what it is but not (IIUC) where.
15:46<FLHerne>s/where/which angle it's at/
15:48<FLHerne>I could do something hacky with animation frames (does that work?), but a more straightforward method would be nice
15:49<@planetmaker>happy hacking :)
15:50<FLHerne>Or not - "Not sure whether this was answered, but "nearby_tile_animation_frame" cannot access animation frames of other objects"
15:50<FLHerne>From the forum. Surely there must be some way to do it?
15:50<FLHerne>Different objects, but from the same grf and with known IDs
15:51<@planetmaker>if it needs to correlate, make it one object
15:51<FLHerne>I don't actually need an animation frame, just the orientation/view
15:51<@planetmaker>otherwise you have quickly an endless loop: A: check tile B; B: check tile A
15:51<@planetmaker>so the internal state is not accessible
15:52<FLHerne>Objects of the same type don't need to know about each other, and there are no two types that each need to know about the other
15:53*FLHerne looks forward to having umpteen-million IDs then
15:53<@planetmaker>then A->B->C->A
15:53<@planetmaker>also a circle ;)
15:53<FLHerne>Thinking about it, the circularity doesn't matter anyway
15:53<@planetmaker>FLHerne, but that's the reason it's not available
15:54<@planetmaker>it is possible
15:54<@planetmaker>and circularity would need detection and breaking. Rather a nightmare
15:54<FLHerne>If I'm setting one property (graphics) based on a different thing (view) it can't make a circular dependency
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15:55<FLHerne>Is there any way an object could set its view based on another object's view such that a dependency could exist there?
15:55<frosch123>FLHerne: i don't think you can access the anim state of other objects
15:56<FLHerne>frosch123: I don't actually want the anim state, I want the view state.
15:56<@planetmaker>FLHerne, in principle access to the view would be much more unproblematic than animation state, yes
15:56<frosch123>the fences stuff does it just depending on the id, not depending on the orientation
15:56<FLHerne>I just thought about anim because view is more obviously not available
15:57<frosch123>i feel like we discussed orientation before
15:57<FLHerne>frosch123: I didn't, unless I picked up some amnesia sometime
15:58<FLHerne>So...I can have 4x as many IDs, or glitchy extraneous fences, or glitchy lack of fences :-(
15:58<FLHerne>At least 1.4 has more IDs to waste
15:59<@planetmaker>what do you try to do, FLHerne ?
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16:01<FLHerne>planetmaker: I want fences between two objects if they're orientated in one way relative to each other, and not in a different case
16:01<frosch123> <- didn't get particular many responses
16:01<FLHerne>Because there are multiple types of object with such relationships, making 2/3/n-tile objects for each case would get silly fast
16:02<FLHerne>Ah, so I'm in good company with my demands :D
16:02<frosch123>but hey, i remembered it :p
16:03<frosch123>and i think the conclusion was to put it in the upper word, instead of the upper byte
16:03<@planetmaker>in principle var 0x63 of objects could return the view. Or a new variable
16:03<@planetmaker>sorry, 0x62 (nearby_tile_land_info)
16:04<Der_Herr>i am still not convinced wether the first company has the id 0 or 1...
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16:05<@planetmaker>switch to company mode, build a sign. And you know by the colour
16:07<Der_Herr>and the color tells me what?
16:07<frosch123>why does the company id matter?
16:08<@planetmaker>the colour tells you which company it is
16:08<frosch123>in what context do you use it?
16:08<frosch123>as in: scripts may very well count them differently than e.g. console commands like start/stop_ai
16:08<frosch123>or the "move" command
16:08<Der_Herr>in GS i get the id 0
16:08<Der_Herr>but from admin console (i think) i get 1
16:09<frosch123>human interfaces start with 1, programming interfaces start with 0
16:11<FLHerne>Aside - If 'nearby_tile_animation_frame' really is only valid for tiles of the same object, shouldn't that be documented on the NML specs page? And does the same go for 'nearby_tile_random_bits'?
16:11<frosch123>yes, and same for industries, stations and houses
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16:11<frosch123>and airports
16:11<FLHerne>At the moment they're listed alongside and in the same format as 'nearby_tile_slope' et al, which obviously don't have that limitation
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16:15<frosch123> <- anyway, something like that?
16:15<FLHerne>Is that a 'go edit the wiki' thing, or is it to increase traffic for the IRC channel and forums? :P
16:16<frosch123>it is to lower the time distance to the next cake
16:21*FLHerne doesn't understand the response
16:22<FLHerne>Was that intended to convey some meaning? Or just cake?
16:22<frosch123>3719 to go
16:23<@planetmaker><3 that patch, frosch123 . But shouldn't we rather use << 30 or so?
16:23<@planetmaker>to allow more objectIDs, if needed? :D
16:23<frosch123>no, i rather allow more views
16:23<frosch123>or drag distance
16:24<frosch123>we need dragable objects
16:24<FLHerne>Ah. Cakes at intervals of 10k revisions?
16:24<@planetmaker>well... we had this year another rev...
16:25<FLHerne>I edited the wiki, could someone confirm if I got it right?
16:26<FLHerne>Even if you go and make it wrong tomorrow, which would be nice :P
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16:28-!-Der_Herr [] has quit [Quit: [ ] # Es ist nicht die Aufgabe eines Soldaten für sein Vaterland zu sterben, es ist seine Aufgabe dafür zu sorgen, das der Feind für seines ]
16:32<frosch123>__ln__: can you please explain the usage of "das" and "dass" to Der_Herr, next time he joins
16:33<@planetmaker>haha :) I thought about the same
16:34<@planetmaker>fail at trying to look cool ;)
16:35<__ln__>@seen Der_Herr
16:35<@DorpsGek>__ln__: Der_Herr was last seen in #openttd 26 minutes and 27 seconds ago: <Der_Herr> but from admin console (i think) i get 1
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16:58<@planetmaker>good night
17:00<UukGoblin>when I have a 2-platform station next to an oil refinery, is it possible to force the goods trains to only occupy max 1 platform when loading?
17:01<UukGoblin>leaving the other platform available for oil delivery?
17:01<Taede>you'd either have to use a waypoint preceding the goods-platform, or split the station in to 2
17:01<@peter1138>if (!(foo == bar))
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17:01<frosch123>peter1138: if (foo == true)
17:02<Taede>usually its better to have a separate station for dropoff of resources and another for pickup of goods
17:02<UukGoblin>Taede, ah, waypoint sounds interesting
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17:02<frosch123>you can also use a depot
17:02<frosch123>let the goods trains run into a depot and make only one track from the depot to the station
17:03<frosch123>while oil trains go directly to the station, and not to the depot
17:03<UukGoblin>frosch123, ah, interesting too :-)
17:03<frosch123>that way also waiting goods trains will not block the track
17:03<UukGoblin>so many solutions. wow. :-)
17:04<UukGoblin>ah yes, I forgot depots provide infinite space for carriages :-)
17:05<frosch123>make sure to use the right signalling so trains only leave the depot when the platform is free
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17:07<luaduck>any reason why my copy of openttd is trying to load a savegame that I don't believe exists?
17:07<luaduck>it's overriding my config
17:08<luaduck>-d 1 shows nothing of any use
17:10<UukGoblin>got any tips on how to order trains around with such a setup? OIL RIG ==== OIL RIG ==== REFINERY ==== REFINERY? :-)
17:10<UukGoblin>I sort of told them to go rig1 -> refinery1 -> rig2 -> refinery2
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17:11<UukGoblin>one enhancement I can see is to try partial load at rig2 and skip going to rig1 if load is full
17:11<luaduck>Broken savegame - Invalid chunk size, even though there is NOTHING in my commandline or config that points to anything suspicious
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17:28<UukGoblin>rig1 now announced imminent closure :-(
17:28<UukGoblin>after I built all the stuff
17:28<UukGoblin>I mean oil well, not rig, actually. but still.
17:31<FLHerne>UukGoblin: Always nice, that
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17:35<luaduck>my dedicated server is ignoring build_on_slopes :(
17:36<luaduck>infact it keeps setting it back when it saves the config
17:36<FLHerne>luaduck: Are you trying to change the config file while it's running? I don't think that works
17:36<luaduck>nope, I'm closing it
17:38<Xaroth|Work>perhaps the savegame has it set?
17:38<luaduck>it's not loading a savegame
17:38<luaduck>there aren't any savegames anywhere
17:38<luaduck>there isn't even a ~/.openttd
17:39<Xaroth|Work>it doesn't look -just- in there, there are other locations as well
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17:41<luaduck>is there a list?
17:41<UukGoblin>a conditional order skip based on trains present on platforms would be nice ;-)
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17:44<FLHerne>luaduck: Yes, readme, section 4
17:44<luaduck>none of those places have saves in
17:45<luaduck>working dir, well it's a dedi so that's definitely no
17:45<luaduck>personal, ~/.openttd doesn't exist
17:45<luaduck>shared n/a
17:45<luaduck>binary it's a dedi that isn't installed
17:45<luaduck>same with install dir
17:46<Andreas>UukGoblin, you could use an "escape depot":
17:46<luaduck>I wish debug logging would say what save it's loading
17:47<Andreas>and then just place it on the track the goods trains use (force them on that track with a waypoint or build a seperate station
17:48<UukGoblin>hm, gotta learn more about these depots and waypoints
17:49<UukGoblin>thanks :-)
17:51<luaduck>is there a command to reload the config
17:52<UukGoblin>why are there no bi-directional path signals?
17:52<LSky>it works like one, I believe
17:52<FLHerne>UukGoblin: Because the concep makes very limited sense?
17:52<LSky>the one without the white panel
17:53<FLHerne>UukGoblin: They'd have to be facing each other, and the only situation where you want that is long single tracks where you can easily spare the extra tile
17:54<UukGoblin>FLHerne, ah. I'd have to think more about it I guess.
17:54<UukGoblin>so far I've been trying to enforce one-way path signals and build double-tracks everywhere (for right-hand side train driving)
17:54<UukGoblin>but now I'm thinking that's not very efficient
17:55<UukGoblin>because trains could use the other lane in case of congestion due to breakage
17:55<FLHerne>UukGoblin: Don't try that. It doesn't work, and makes everything worse :P
17:55<UukGoblin>FLHerne, what, one-way tracks, or trying to re-use the oncoming lane? :-)
17:56<FLHerne>UukGoblin: You either get trains weaving across for no reason (delays things) or breaking down while weaving (now *both* lanes are blocked)...
17:56<FLHerne>UukGoblin: The latter
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18:00<UukGoblin>ok :-)
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18:10<luaduck>ok I need an adult / developer, I am really stumped by this
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18:14<FLHerne>luaduck: Try sometime other than midnight ;-)
18:14<luaduck>yeah I guess so
18:15<Andreas>I've hade problems with ottd randomly overwrighting the config file aswell, unfortunately I cannot remember what I did wrong or what fixed it
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18:42<luaduck>anyone happen to know where openttd gets its default settings from?
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18:42<luaduck>ie before it writes the config for the first time
18:44<luaduck>found it, src/table/settings.ini
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20:12<mek42>after ./configure, do i need to specify which makefile to use, or should there be one ready to go with just make (no options, no file)?
20:13<mek42>also, should ./ return 1 after an svn checkout?
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---Logclosed Tue Jan 28 00:00:50 2014