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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-01-28

---Logopened Tue Jan 28 00:00:50 2014
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02:48<dihedral>good morning ladies
02:50<Elyon>'morning
02:51<Pikka>doesn't it
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03:21*LordAro mornings
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03:49<Xaroth|Work>o/
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03:57<dihedral>Xaroth|Work, o/ you too
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04:22<LSky>morning
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05:27<@peter1138>grrr @ widget handles that are only 1 pixel wide :S
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06:19<Pikka>darn those midget vandals
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06:48<Pikka>speaking of midget vandals, hello andythenorth
06:49<andythenorth>lo
06:52<Pikka>what progress?
06:53<V453000>hyhyhyhyhyhyhyhyhyhyhyhyhyhy m000 hello
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07:01<bolli>Hi
07:02<andythenorth>Pikka: tell me about costs, especially buy costs
07:02<Pikka>for what, trains, planes, or sausages?
07:03<andythenorth>yes
07:03<andythenorth>cb36 can set buy costs
07:03<bolli>Can I have some thoughts? https://github.com/sambol/node-libOpenttdAdmin
07:03<andythenorth>I have been thinking about that
07:05<Pikka>what have you thought?
07:06<andythenorth>random buy cost, re-randomised monthly?
07:06<andythenorth>from a low-high range
07:08<andythenorth>dunno, might smell of wee
07:08<Pikka>might do a bit. seems a bit complex and unintuitive. :)
07:09<Pikka>what's the benefit? that one month one vehicle might be cheaper than another?
07:09<@planetmaker>nice, bolli. Anywhere where it's used? :)
07:09<V453000>LOL
07:09<V453000>wtf andythenorth
07:09<V453000>kids give you drugs or? :D
07:10<@planetmaker>that's totally realistic!
07:10<bolli>not yet, I've only just finished writing it planetmaker... :)
07:10<@planetmaker>randomizing buy costs certainly is not worse than randomizing power ;)
07:11<andythenorth>Pikka: no real benefit, just different
07:11<andythenorth>and means I don't have to think about balancing :P
07:11<andythenorth>balancing bores the arse off me
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07:11<andythenorth>then someone pops up and points out how you've got it wrong
07:12<andythenorth>and then I was all like, yeah, whatever
07:13<V453000>:D:D:D
07:14<V453000>power is sane!
07:14<V453000>andy, you dont "balance" things by cost, just give reasonable cost for everything ... usage matters
07:14<V453000>e.g. power/speed/weight/tractive effort/capacity/loading speed/curve friendliness/other mechanisms
07:16<Pikka>andythenorth: I suppose if you're working on IH, you need real stats, right?
07:16<Pinkbeast>Reliability ho ho
07:16<andythenorth>Pikka: real stats for our made up trains? o_O
07:16<Pikka>oh, they're all made up? :D
07:16<andythenorth>mostly
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07:17<V453000>best approach :)
07:17<Pikka>I'm pretty happy with the numbers my 10CC statter is producing, I could try doing some numbers for IH if you wanted.
07:18<andythenorth>I would be happy with that :)
07:18<andythenorth>otherwise I do the random thing
07:18<andythenorth>or some formula of weight * hp, like FISH
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07:20<Pikka>if you pm me a list of vehicles, with (approx?) intro dates and whether they're express locos or whatever, I canl have a go at it.
07:20<Pikka>*can
07:21<Pinkbeast>Pikka: Please, did you ever get satisfactory 4-6-0 Castle graphics before UKRS2+ updates stopped?
07:22<Pikka>not that I recall, Pinkbeast
07:22<bolli>Anyway, must dash, bye
07:22<Pinkbeast>Rats.
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07:24<V453000>andythenorth: id say try something, I can help you figure out if the stats are different enough / that each train has at least some use
07:28*andythenorth busies
07:33<Pikka>andythenorth: or I suppose I could just send you the spreadsheet for 10cc, instead of being secretive about my secret formulas. :P
07:33<Japa>What's 10cc anyway?
07:33<Japa>How many colors do you need?
07:33<V453000>:d
07:34<Pikka>Japa: how many have you got?
07:34<Japa>2
07:35<Pikka>o
07:35<Pinkbeast>Japa: BR Brunswick Green and LMS Crimson Lake, that seems like 2 to me. :-)
07:35<Pikka>I have 16.7 million
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07:38<Flygon>I have 512. Because I'm hipster.
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07:38<Flygon>1536 addressable if you add Shadow/Highlight effects :B
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07:39<V453000>how many is the palette for real men? 218?
07:41<Flygon>What's 218 again?
07:41<Flygon>It's familiar
07:41<Flygon>But I'm not sure if that was Famicom or 2600
07:42<V453000>ttd palette?
07:42<Flygon>Not 2600
07:42<Flygon>Oh
07:42<Flygon>Right
07:42<Flygon>DERP
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07:53<MNIM>load testing junctions and station entrances.
07:53<MNIM>http://i.imgur.com/zOrNl8O.png
07:54<MNIM>left junction definitely not a success.
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07:55<V453000>4-way junctions are always suicide MNIM
07:55<V453000>unless you have really a loooooooot of experience
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07:56*andythenorth hitting refresh :P
07:56<MNIM>V453000: well, Im not exactly a newbie, but eh, I do indeed tend to stick to threeways, too
07:56<andythenorth>come on build farm...
07:56<Pikka>andy: when's the start date of IH?
07:56<andythenorth>1870, give or take
07:57<andythenorth>here we go http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/docs/html/code_reference.html
07:57<andythenorth>1860 it seems
07:57<andythenorth>the code knows better than me :P
07:57<MNIM>but sometimes you cannot avoid a fourway, for example, in areas where aprox six or more lines are joining together
07:57<Pikka>mm
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>these junctions are definitely too small for these train lengths
07:57<andythenorth>I should put a table sort javascript on that table :P
07:57<MNIM>eddi: right one seems to be working well enough for it, but yes, left one definitely has issues in that regard.
07:58<Pinkbeast>MNIM: short of "arrange to have been playing Simutrans" :-)
07:58<V453000>MNIM: helpful articles http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2010/09/28/advanced-building-revue-07-stations/ http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Junctionary_-_Stations http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Merging_Tracks
07:58<V453000>also, you can always avoid 4ways :)
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: any n-way junction can be replaced by n+1 three-way junctions
07:58<MNIM>Pinkbeast? 0.o
07:58<MNIM>Eddi|zuHause: in how much space?
07:58<Pinkbeast>Simutrans has a true underground layer so it's a lot easier to fit n 3-ways into the space
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>loots
07:58<Pikka>I'll have a go at 'em, andy. :D
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>actually, n works too
08:00<MNIM>Anyway, I prefer to work with compromises between capacity and space
08:00<andythenorth>Pikka:
08:00<andythenorth>ta
08:00<andythenorth>you can probably copy the table to excel or something
08:00<Pinkbeast>... if you are made of money which one rarely is in Simutrans
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: then you need better organic growing
08:01<V453000>MNIM: btw those trains are GIGANTIC for that small map
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>identifying bottlenecks and resolving them
08:01<V453000>smaller trains fit in less space ;)
08:01<MNIM>V453000: it's a testing bench
08:01<andythenorth>smaller batch size = better flow
08:01<MNIM>it's specifically made to overload the network :P
08:01<V453000>testing benches are bad
08:02<andythenorth>in theory one-piece-flow is the ideal batch size
08:02<V453000>everything breaks sooner or later
08:02<andythenorth>but theory is often beaten by engineering
08:02<V453000>everything
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08:02<andythenorth>http://www.reliableplant.com/Read/14703/one-piece-flow
08:02<MNIM>usually I work with five-long main traffic (town-to-town passengers) with the occasional seven and fourteen-long freighters
08:03<V453000>3-6 tiles is reasonable
08:03<MNIM>so inundating it with fourteen-longs should work to make it work for worst-case scenarios
08:03<Pinkbeast>I tend to find pax sneaks upwards towards 8 once the big Pacifics come in
08:03<V453000>5 is solid always
08:04<andythenorth>one piece flow will also optimise for cashflow
08:04<andythenorth>if you care
08:04<andythenorth>delivering earlier = getting paid sooner
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>my networks look completely different to those...
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>and my local trains are 2-4, long-distance 5-8 and freight 6-12, usually
08:05<Pinkbeast>Eddi|zuHause: What cargo weight multiplier for freight?
08:05<andythenorth>I deliberately bundle massive trains onto the network
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>1, mostly, but it's usually irrelevant as passengers trump all
08:05<andythenorth>because eh, why not
08:06<andythenorth>Pikka: grf is here btw http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/iron-horse/push/LATEST/
08:06<Pinkbeast>I have 3 but still find freight sneaks up towards 12 with beasts like the 9F, let alone the electrics
08:08<LSky>question, is it possible to change the newgrf settings of an existing scenario?
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>no.
08:08<LSky>So its set at the moment you create the scenario?
08:09<V453000>(:
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes
08:10<MNIM>I tend to use twin locs for my freighters
08:10<LSky>is this no longer possible?
08:10<LSky>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=913148#p913148
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>you can, however, export the heightmap, start a new scenario, and place the towns etc. again
08:10<V453000>that still works I hope LSky
08:10<LSky>yeah, unfortunately the heightmap part took 4 minutes
08:11<LSky>the town placement 15 hours
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>well you should have thought of that before :)
08:12<LSky>yeah, i made a wrong assumption, upside is that no newgrfs means its somewhat more accesible
08:12*andythenorth adjusts stats on tin rocket
08:12<MNIM>(note: eddi lies)
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, yes, that still works
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>but it is not recommended
08:12<MNIM>that is true
08:13<LSky>well, whats the worst that could happen?
08:13<MNIM>crashes
08:13<MNIM>crashes EVERYWHERE
08:13<LSky>well, the good part about a crashing program is that you can start it again
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>the least that could happen is you provide a scenario that nobody can play because it doesn't have vehicles
08:13<FLHerne>LSky: And then it probably crashes again at the same point, but whatever :P
08:13<LSky>right, well im planning to obviously save the scenario as is beforehand
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08:14<andythenorth>one day there might be a new scenario format
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes "obvious" is not the same thing to two different people
08:14<FLHerne>LSky: The problems start if you give the scenario to other people (or on Bananas) and then they get crashes
08:14<FLHerne>LSky: Because they don't know, and then the devs get unfixable bug reports
08:15<V453000>making scenarios is mostly waste of time anyway
08:15<V453000>the generator does just fine
08:15<LSky>the generator doesnt make Europe maps though :P
08:15<V453000>not like that has any benefits
08:15<LSky>enjoyment is no benefit?
08:16<LSky>damn, ive been playing games for the wrong reasons :(
08:16<andythenorth>scenario making is a craft in its own right, no?
08:16<andythenorth>like making newgrfs
08:16<V453000>you still fill it with fuking tracks andy :P
08:16<Flygon_>Vehicle sets are like TV shows
08:16<Flygon_>And scenarios are like movies
08:17<andythenorth>V453000: I am favouring one track per train
08:17<Flygon_>In that everyone agrees that a Futurama vehicle set would be pretty neat
08:17<andythenorth>we should just ban signals
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>you get totally addicted and want to know how it goes on, vs. you have two hours of fun and it doesn't amtter anymore?
08:17<andythenorth>but allow stacking rail lines
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08:17<LSky>well itll be a while before anyone fills this map with rails
08:18<andythenorth>'bridgeheads on tunnels'
08:18<FLHerne>V453000: Beautiful scenarios are why some people don't take '8-track synchronous mainline' as a primary goal :P
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: i'm afraid "human-transporting pipes" is as useless a transport mode as "pipelines" wrt ingame management
08:19<Flygon>But what about Spaceships?
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: just repainted airplanes
08:19<V453000>I have no idae what synchronous is FLHerne but alright :D
08:19<Flygon>And the Prism Train!!!!
08:19<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: ho ho actually that's an idea
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>and planes are the second worst transport mode in this game right after pipelines
08:19<Flygon>Mid-movement decoupling MU operation!
08:19<andythenorth>planes have an action 2 var for takeoff stage?
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: shunting is not implemented
08:20<andythenorth>make them invisible after a certain point 'they're in hypersonic space flight'
08:20<Pinkbeast>I actually wanted skilift-like arrangements as "continuous transport" pipelines for pax - uneconomic except straight up hills.
08:20<Flygon>Who said anything about shunting?
08:20<Flygon>I meant the train splits off into 6 different tracks
08:20<Flygon>When it hits a junction
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>yes
08:20<andythenorth>yes, that's shunting
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>"shunting"
08:20<Flygon>While going 5843km/h
08:20<Flygon>And never stopping
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08:20<andythenorth>same mechanic
08:20<Flygon>Just like in Futur-
08:20<Flygon>Stop defying me D:
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: the point is "separating vehicles outside a depot" is not implemented
08:21<LSky>the very least I take away from this scenario making process is that I definitely added to my topography/geography knowledge, I suddenly know about a bunch of cities that I never knew existed.
08:21<Flygon>I know, I know
08:21<Flygon>But, I'm a dreamer D:
08:21<FLHerne>Flygon: Make multipart vehicles able to overtake, and you can probably manage it with HEQS roadtrains :P
08:21<Flygon>LSky: What I get out of scenarios is baffling people in their native countries with routes I choose :D
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: also, we don't have a sewer layer
08:22<Pinkbeast>Flygon: I'd love something like that for banking engines as in UK practice, but...
08:22<Flygon>Pinkbeast: You and I both
08:22*FLHerne wants pilot diesels for branches and yards
08:22<Flygon>Banking stopped happening here after the 1950s though
08:22<Pinkbeast>Oh, it went out with steam.
08:23<FLHerne>Dragging a Cl20 along behind a 92 for 9/10s of the journey just for the last leg is silly
08:23<andythenorth>herp
08:23<Flygon>...so you get situations where interstate trains are a combination of modern 2013 4500hp Diesels... ...coupled together with a few 700hp T-class locos from 1952
08:23<andythenorth>Pikka: oopsie, some of the trains are NG, some are standard gauge
08:23<Pinkbeast>... and when I have an infinite amount of time, motivation, and C++, I'd like real semaphore-era signal box operation
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: you forgot something: the factory is not destroyed by a fighter jet, but the Nimbus, and the roadvehicles are not hit by UFOs but eaten by nibbler :p
08:23<Pikka>andy: doesn't really matter for the table, although I guess that explains why you have so many little locos in there. :P
08:24<andythenorth>yes :)
08:24<Flygon>Nibbler was part of a species
08:24<Flygon>Just use a generic member!
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>whatever
08:28<Flygon>D:
08:34<Pikka>you have a pm, andythenorth
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>better than "you have an andythenorth, pm"
08:38<Pikka>him too
08:39<andythenorth>hello open office
08:39<Pikka>I can a different format if you like :P
08:39<LSky>still has a bunch of missing stuff, but its a start: http://i.imgur.com/UOwCxMu.png
08:39<andythenorth>I can an open office, it's ok
08:41<Pikka>these formulae were arrived at by the "keep sticking in numbers til it looks right" method, in case you can't tell
08:41<andythenorth>looks about right
08:41<andythenorth>I'll stick it in
08:41<andythenorth>ta
08:42<andythenorth>I am not even going to try and balance it against other transport types :P
08:42<Pikka>:P
08:42<Pikka>well, since you mention it, I have one for RVs as well. but I haven't tried it in-game yet so I don't know if those numbers are right-ish.
08:42<andythenorth>too many variables :P
08:44<Pikka>oh, btw
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>the game is not "balanced" at all. after a number of years the only thing limiting growth is space on the map and time you can invest into building
08:45<Pikka>the numbers after buy and run are the base cost multipliers
08:45<Pikka>and the 7 is supposed to be a 5, whoops.
08:45<Pikka>no
08:45<Pikka>it's supposed to be a 7
08:45<Pikka>I'm confusing myself
08:45<Pikka>don't mind me
08:45<Pikka>it's right, it's 7. :)
08:46<Elyon>short of overriding every default house, is there a neat way in a NewGRF to disable all regular houses and only use supplied ones?
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08:47<Elyon>and on that note: is this the right place to ask? :)
08:47<@planetmaker>yes. and yes
08:48<Elyon>:D
08:48<Elyon>link or similar? I can't find it in the documentation for NML...
08:48<@planetmaker>forums would be another obvious place to ask as well. NML has the disable function
08:48<@planetmaker>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Disable_items
08:48<Elyon>planetmaker: ah, I will look into disable immediately!
08:50<Elyon>boy, am I glad I didn't start overriding everything, now. This is much neater, thanks ^-^
08:51<Elyon>every step of the way it seems you developers are geniuses (genii?)
08:52<@planetmaker>until you find the rough edges ;)
08:53<Elyon>nonsense
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09:19<Japa>Thinking about it, I think I can leave slopes out of my tile border mod, for now.
09:20<Japa>Already have 450 new sprites defined
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09:22<@planetmaker>:-O
09:23<Japa_>Fifteen terrain types, 30 sprites each for borders, just for flat ground
09:23<Pikka>that's a lot of sprites
09:24<@planetmaker>hm... plain, desert, rainforest, rough, stone. water(?)
09:24<@planetmaker>hm... snow 1/4,2/4,3/4 and 4/4?
09:26<Japa_>On second thought, rough land isn't needed
09:26*Japa_ slices those out
09:26<@planetmaker>it has a gameplay effect
09:26<@planetmaker>why is that not needed?
09:26<Japa_>yes, but for borders, you can just use a grass border
09:27<@planetmaker>but isn't that the whole point...?
09:27<@planetmaker>same for stone
09:27<Japa_>or whichever is the background for the rough land
09:27<Japa_>I mean it doesn't need a separate border from grass
09:27<@planetmaker>then you only need grass<->desert. nothing else
09:27<@planetmaker>and grass<->snow
09:28<Japa_>the levels of grass and snow, though
09:28<@planetmaker>you could make the borders of bare land grassy, too ;). Same argument
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09:29<@planetmaker>Japa_, if you do it, do it right. It's no problem to define 100% transparent sprites
09:29<@planetmaker>for default. And leave crazy stuff to people who enjoy creating sprites
09:29<Japa_>true enough
09:30<@planetmaker>tbh, the default sprites could *all* be transparent
09:31<@planetmaker>gets you rid of the task of providing them. But opens all the options
09:31<Japa_>Now I just have to add code for "If there's a sprite defined for rocky borders, use them, otherwise use grass borders
09:31<@planetmaker>hm?
09:31<@planetmaker>depends on the priority chain you defined, no?
09:31<Japa_>Yeah
09:31<@planetmaker>Japa_, just assume that a sprite is always defined
09:31<Japa_>okay
09:31<@planetmaker>100% transparent is still a sprite
09:32<Japa_>true
09:32<Pikka>hm
09:33<Japa_>anyway, now I'm back to grass 1/3, 2/3, 3/3, rough 0,1,2,3,4, rocky 1,2, water, snow 1/4, 2/4, 3/4, 4/4
09:33<Japa_>water is only seen when it's not finished flooding the area
09:34<@planetmaker>rough 0,1,2,3,4? you mean the 4 variants?
09:34<Japa_>yeah.
09:34<@planetmaker>I don't think you need to worry about the 4 roughtness levels. The 4 additional roughs only exist for flat and are not really a terrain type themselves
09:34<Japa_>okay
09:35<@planetmaker>just my personal impression. other opinions might vary :)
09:35<Japa_>that brings me down to 330
09:36<Japa_>flats only
09:36<@planetmaker>:D
09:36<Japa_>Unless I also condense the two rocky types into one
09:39<@planetmaker>two rocky types?!
09:39<Japa_>that's my question too
09:39<@planetmaker>there's only one? where's there two?
09:39<Japa_>when is the second one ever used?
09:39<@planetmaker>ah, you mean in the base set(s)? :)
09:39<@planetmaker>yeah, that's a nice quirk. Left-over from TT in the TTD base set
09:40<@planetmaker>never used in TTD nor OpenTTD
09:41<Japa_>Right, getting rid of that
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09:47<Japa_>Hmm...
09:48<Japa_>Snow sort-of already has border stuff. But I may as well have support for snow eventually being not strictly height based
09:51<@planetmaker>desert also has border stuff. Desert transition is no terrain type
09:52<Japa_>Yeah, it shares a sprite number with snow
09:53<Japa_>Though the priority would be different
09:54<Japa_>I think it should go snow->water->special->grass->desert->base
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10:57<Japa_>Is there a named constant for the number of slope tiles?
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11:15<@Belugas>hello
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11:17<Elyon>hiya ^-^
11:19<Pikka>hello Belugas
11:19<Pikka>long time no whale
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11:41<@Belugas>not too long ago ;)
11:41<@Belugas>but yeah
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11:42<@Belugas>i'm drowning under tusanmi of projects :(
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12:46<slee>hello again, i've been looking threw the available grfs online, but still not sure what the best ones are for extra variety in the game, does anyone have a list(or webpage) listing the best grf setups? like addition industries, vehicles, etc
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12:50<Ailure>You probably find that people have a varying opinion about that since favorite GRF's varies
12:50<Ailure>especailly when it comes to trains
12:50<slee>ok, industries
12:51<Pinkbeast>FIRS is not a bad idea.
12:51<Ailure>yup
12:51<Ailure>FIRS is probably the most wellmade industry GRF
12:52<Ailure>and for aircrafts I think you can't do wrong with AV8
12:52<Pinkbeast>slee: I use UKRS2 / UKRS2+ for trains, AV8 for planes, FISH and Sailing Ships for er ships, EGRVTS and Generic Tram Set for RVs.
12:52<Ailure>that's a pretty common setup
12:52<Ailure>same as mine actually
12:52<Pinkbeast>FIRS industries, CHIPS stations and some other station sets but there's no real limit on those.
12:53<slee>cool, thanks...i tried the 2cc trainset, but for maglevs, there wasn't any cars for carring wood.etc, so i removed it
12:53<Pinkbeast>slee: Most sets with any pretension to realism at all won't let you carry heavy cargo in maglevs.
12:53<slee>gotya
12:53<Pinkbeast>I add 2cc to UKRS but just to fill in a few gaps like post-war livestock; I never use a 2cc vehicle if UKRS can do it.
12:53<slee>i'll try those y'all have suggested, thanks
12:54<Pinkbeast>Another different alternative is NUTS, a deliberately whimsical train set oriented around game balance.
12:54<Ailure>NUTS is very silly
12:54<Pinkbeast>One of the nice things about UKRS2/Sailing Ships/EGRVTS games is you can start about 1820.
12:55<Pinkbeast>Oh, and I forget what it's called, but Pikka's town set IIRC
12:55<Ailure>Generally it's best to stick to one trainset though, you can mix but I don't really advise it unless you really really want a huge trainlist
12:55<Ailure>especially since they tend to have diffrent ideas of balancing
12:56<Pinkbeast>Hence the rule about only using 2cc where necessary.
12:56<Pinkbeast>Oh, and Nutracks for 3rd rail / overhead electrification and linespeed limits
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12:59<slee>hmm..i see a new industry (lumber yard), but i don't see the usual set of trees for harvesting
13:00<Pinkbeast>I think it's only subtropical that harvests map trees; FIRS lumber yards are supplied by an ordinary industry. ICBW.
13:01<Ailure>the FIRS industry chain is more complicated
13:02<Pinkbeast>Ailure: Indeed, but I think the specific thing slee is thinking of is as mentioned; one default climate harvests the map trees that towns love so much.
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13:08<slee>aaah, there it is, i tiny 'forest' for wood
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>forests are easier to find on the map
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>or through the industry chain window
13:10<slee>sweet, 'FIRS' added a lot of new industry
13:10<Pinkbeast>"supplies" are the gotcha.
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>also a help with finding forests is the transparency menu (Ctrl+X)
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>set trees to invisible but industries to opaque
13:12<slee>ok, 'glass works' for example...it shows 2 items waiting to be processed, it it require both in order to create output goods?
13:13<slee>*does it require...
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>are you sure you're using FIRS? sounds like ECS to me
13:14<slee>i think i have both installed
13:14<slee>remove ecs?
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>use one, but not both
13:14<slee>k
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>and "installed" is something different to "activated"
13:14<+glx>glass works requiring sand and coal is ECS IIRC
13:14<+glx>or something like this
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>i think ECS processes like 8 units at once, so you often have small leftovers that weren't processed
13:16<Pinkbeast>FIRS industries accept multiple inputs; ECS requires multiple inputs. From slee's question, I'm not sure if they know which they've got.
13:17<slee>ok, removed ecs, i still see multiple inputs for glass works...so...i'm guessing i'tll require both items to produce output goods?
13:17<Pinkbeast>slee: No, as I say, "FIRS industries accept multiple inputs".
13:17<Pinkbeast>In contrast to "ECS requires..."
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13:18<slee>got it
13:18<Pinkbeast>But you get more output per unit of input if you deliver both inputs within a month (or you did last time I played)
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13:25<Eddi|zuHause>slee: changing newgrfs only takes effect on new games, not savegames
13:26<slee>right
13:28<slee>currently trying to figure out how to get my ship to goto a fishing harbor after a sandbank
13:28<slee>can't seem to click 'goto' on the fishing harbor
13:33<@planetmaker>fishing harbours are industries. you need to actually build a dock
13:35<FLHerne_>That does lead to the odd situation where you send trains of fish across the map to deliver it to a harbour :P
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13:36<@planetmaker>lol :)
13:36<@planetmaker>tbh, that's what I actually did in one of my very first games I remember playing, still on Brianetta's server back in 2006
13:36<slee>planetmaker, thanks, watching a youtube on FIRS now
13:39<@planetmaker>youtube on firs, eh?
13:39*FLHerne would quite like to see the Stockyard generalised into a food-processing plant to take both fish and livestock
13:39<@planetmaker>did you tell andy? :P
13:39<@planetmaker>e.g. at the issue tracker? :)
13:39<FLHerne>Maybe I should nag andythenorth again
13:40<FLHerne>I think I have on IRC, but not on the tracker
13:40<@planetmaker>were it me, I'd either say yes or no. And forgot no-matter-what if it's not on my tracker :P
13:41<@planetmaker>anyway, got to go. bye
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26282 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2014-01-28 18:45:25 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>belarusian - 1 changes by KorneySan
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan - 1 changes by juanjo
13:45<@DorpsGek>finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
13:45<@DorpsGek>russian - 1 changes by KorneySan
---Logclosed Tue Jan 28 13:53:21 2014
---Logopened Tue Jan 28 13:53:32 2014
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13:54<slee>need a prison mod(grf) and have inmates make cheap goods
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13:56<frosch123>better than one producing workers for mines
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13:57<slee>you could own the prison, rent out inmates to industries
13:58<frosch123>two way transports do not work well
14:00<MNIM>isn't that exactly how it works already?
14:00<MNIM>no personnel ever goes in or out of the mines.
14:00<MNIM>seems a bit silly to me
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14:03<Pinkbeast>Simutrans industries have modest quantities of workers, good for trams.
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14:28<lbalbalba>hi
14:28<@Alberth>hi
14:28<lbalbalba>just for fun, i ran the llvm/clang static source code analyzer on openttd (svn trunk)
14:28<lbalbalba>results can be found here: http://clang-scans.rhcloud.com/openttd/
14:30<andythenorth>FLHerne: how would that work? o_O
14:30<andythenorth>you land fish at a fishing harbour, then they are no longer fish, but foood.... :)
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14:30<@Alberth>hi hi Wolf01, andy
14:31<andythenorth>I wouldn't rule out a food processor in some economy btw, I'm just curious why it's fun / gameplay useful
14:31<Wolf01>o/
14:33<@Alberth>having good food while playing?
14:34<andythenorth>:)
14:34<andythenorth>moules frites
14:34<andythenorth>there are no potatoes in FIRS
14:34<andythenorth>that is clearly an oversight
14:35<andythenorth>or is it potatos
14:35*andythenorth never knows
14:37<@Alberth>I'd write it with an "e"
14:37<@Alberth>same trouble exists with cargo[e]s :)
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14:41*andythenorth has an idea
14:42<andythenorth>some economy with fiendishly long cargo chains, and all the early legs are low paying
14:42<andythenorth>hmm
14:42<andythenorth>can I have a negative cargo payment? o_O
14:42*andythenorth wonders if someone accidentally left signed bits in place
14:42<andythenorth>hmm
14:42<@Alberth>I was wondering about a 1/2 production :) for every 2 items, produce 1 output
14:43<andythenorth>it was a formative moment, I was about 8, I discovered a monopoly game (BBC Basic) where the transactions were signed, but the AI players weren't
14:43<andythenorth>"I would like to buy Mayfair for -£25,000"
14:43<@Alberth>haha :D
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14:44<andythenorth>an early introduction to negative numbers
14:44<@Alberth>you had no trouble with the negative number concept at all :)
14:44<andythenorth>1/2 production is possible
14:44<andythenorth>existing code could handle it, probably unchanged
14:45<andythenorth>in fact I think that is the ratio for some industries
14:49<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26283 /trunk/src/linkgraph (refresh.cpp refresh.h) (2014-01-28 19:49:43 UTC)
14:49<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5878]: Prevent infinite recursion also in RefreshLinks.
15:03<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26284 trunk/src/console.cpp (2014-01-28 20:03:12 UTC)
15:03<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Comparison of NULL and char 0. (lbalbalba)
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15:18<FLHerne>andythenorth: Fishing harbours would act as now (Fish->food).
15:19<FLHerne>They'd represent fresh/battered/whatever fish, whereas inland processing plants would be for canning, fishfingers etc
15:20<andythenorth>ok, but why? :)
15:20<FLHerne>Because you can't land all fish at Harbours, because the lakes are never the right shape
15:20<andythenorth>this is a good point
15:20<FLHerne>And landing fish at a dock, then trucking it across land to deliver it to another Harbour is silly
15:20<andythenorth>I could show some very odd fishing harbours and fishing grounds
15:22<FLHerne>I think most of your fish-industry generation troubles stem from OTTD's funny-lake generation :P
15:24*FLHerne is clearly in some inane-comment mode this evening :-/
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16:43*andythenorth -> bed
16:43<andythenorth>bye
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17:22<frosch123>night
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17:24<slee>how do you clear the tracks of a horrendous trainwreck? bombs?
17:24<SpComb>patience
17:24<Pinkbeast>Time. It passes in time, and it won't pass any other way.
17:27<__ln__>but time is money
17:27<slee>well, back to 'signal school' for me
17:27<SpComb>money goes up with time
17:27<SpComb>time spent is money earned
17:28<slee>having 3 trains go to a 2 station terminal doesn't work well
17:33<SpComb>sure it does
17:35<slee>not the way i had it setup(still learning)
17:36<FLHerne>slee: Any number of trains per platform is fine, as long as none of them are occupying it simultaneously :P
17:36<slee>i had it setup as one way in, same way out
17:37<slee>looking at google/images of station layouts now
17:42<slee>ugh, i'm stuck here in this winterstorm on the gulf coast, there are icicles hanging from the powelines outfront 2 foot long, i'm sure before the night is up powerlines are going to snap somewhere and send me back to the stone age
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18:31<Wolf01>'night all
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18:58<Hazzard>!playercount
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19:37<LordAro>Hazzard: you keep doing that :L
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19:38<Hazzard>What did I do :|
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20:14<Japa>Is there a named constant for the number of slope sprite offsets there are, or would I just use the number?
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20:22<mek42>hiyas
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20:37<mek42>why is openttd ./configure not seeing my liblzo2? i have both 64 and 32 bit versions of this library installed
20:37<+glx>dev packages ?
20:38<mek42>no dev packages available in my repo, unless i'm searching wrong
20:38<mek42>i did find the right dev package for sdl
20:38<+glx>usually adding -dev should be standard
20:39<mek42>no results adding -dev
20:42<mek42>found them - needed lzo-dev not liblzo2-dev (of course, i haven't redone ./configure yet, here's hoping)
20:43<mek42>ok, finally, making
20:46<mek42>can i ignore these warnings?
20:46<mek42>/usr/include/libpng12/png.h:2675:31: warning: invalid suffix on literal; C++11 requires a space between literal and identifier [-Wliteral-suffix]
20:46<mek42> fprintf(PNG_DEBUG_FILE,"%s"m PNG_STRING_NEWLINE,(num_tabs==1 ? "\t" : \
20:46<mek42> ^
20:47<+glx>it's in an external lib :)
20:51<mek42>ok, it ran, gave a couple config file errors (false economy and a couple others) that i'm going to ignore for now and i am now downloading grfs
20:53<mek42>woohoo!! it only took me three days, but i can now look at LSky's big game :)
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21:14<mek42>and now it is time to think about bed, too late to start playing - had fun looking though, and learned how to use svn a tiny bit (shoot, learned more than i did before about version control in general)
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---Logclosed Wed Jan 29 00:00:53 2014