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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-01-30

---Logopened Thu Jan 30 00:00:53 2014
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02:38<dihedral>good morning
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03:06<LSky>this looks rather nice;
03:06<LSky>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1109977&sid=fccf38bad140aa368823abfa4fff3c2e#p1109977
03:10<@planetmaker>moin
03:13<@planetmaker>yeah, someone actually doing something there :)
03:14<Xaroth|Work>wait, people actually play OpenTTD?!?!?!?
03:14<@planetmaker>instead of only whining, then results suddenly look nice :D
03:14<Xaroth|Work>impossibru
03:14<@planetmaker>Xaroth|Work, nah, playing the meta game
03:14<Xaroth|Work>AH
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03:47<Elyon>in NML, I have 8 spritelayouts that all share the same (circumstantial) extra building {} blocks. Is there any way for me to define these building blocks once, and then reference them instead?
03:52<V453000>no clue about buildings :|
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04:04<Elyon>ah, that's fine. copypasta for now works :/
04:08<@planetmaker>Elyon, can you paste the code as what you mean?
04:08<@planetmaker>you don't mean sprite templates, no?
04:11<Elyon>I mean sprite layouts, indeed
04:11<Elyon>I am already templating the heck out of these buildings :D
04:11<Elyon>planetmaker: I will paste the code in a bit
04:12<Elyon>any preferred pastesite, or is pastie alright?
04:14<Elyon>planetmaker: http://pastie.org/private/ur3u2yry3r82bjy5fxx4pa#2-54 the highlighted code is identical in all the related spritelayouts
04:27<@planetmaker>ah, that's one way to do it, yes. I probably would put the sprite selection logic into a switch which gives the sprite number as parameter to the layout
04:27<@planetmaker>let me find one example...
04:29<@planetmaker>hm... actually, no. You can have all four sprites concurrently, yes?
04:29<@planetmaker>then there's no way to nicely simplify that
04:29<Elyon>I can have all four concurrently, yes
04:30<Elyon>and alright
04:30<Elyon>thanks for your time anyway :)
04:31<@planetmaker>even the offsets are all different, so... little leeway to cut on code there, too
04:32<@planetmaker>you can go on a templating spree using gcc macros. But I'm not really convinced that it will increase readability
04:32<@planetmaker>nor safe much time :)
04:32<Elyon>probably not :)
04:33<Elyon>this will have to do
04:33<Elyon>it's only 16 buildings, tops
04:33<@planetmaker>:)
04:33<Elyon>not like every single engine in NUTS or something :D
04:34<@planetmaker>hehe
04:34<@planetmaker>btw, did you try, does pushing to repo work?
04:35<Elyon>oh, I haven't tried yet actually
04:36<Elyon>I'd like to actually have it compiling before I push
04:36<Elyon>plus I introduced a regression, so. But it probably works
04:36<Elyon>I could clone through ssh with my passphrase and everything
04:37<@planetmaker>then push should work, too, I think
04:38<@planetmaker>I wonder ,should I add the build system as in the other projects, or do you have that there, already?
04:38<@planetmaker>I think I'll have in the weekend a go at getting compilation setup on DevZone's CF with these projects
04:39<@planetmaker>so that they actually get build on push - which they currently don't as sub repos don't fit the standard setup ;)
04:40<Elyon>well, I have no idea about any of that, better ask Zephyris :)
04:40<Elyon>I just compile locally, so far
04:40<@planetmaker>well, obviously you have the stuff in the repo, though?
04:41<@planetmaker>or not?
04:41<@planetmaker>if not, you should start using it
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04:41<@planetmaker>and as long as it's local, you can always us hg commit --amend :)
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04:42<@planetmaker>but the question is, do you have a Makefile etc like the other projects so that it compiles or should I add that to the project?
04:43<Elyon>ah, --amend works for hg as well
04:43<@planetmaker>even if I should do that, it probably would be easier, if your current source would be available - easier to merge then
04:43<Elyon>I don't have a Makefile but isn't it basically just have it call nmlc?
04:43<@planetmaker>basically yes
04:43<Elyon>quite true, and I just fixed the regression
04:43<@planetmaker>usually it does first call gcc for preprocessing and then invokes nmlc on the preprocessed result
04:44<@planetmaker>thus if you use one single nml source file, I'd rename it for simplicity to pnml
04:44<Elyon>let me commit (see if I can figure out these standardised identifiers for commits :), add a makefile, make sure /that/ makes, then commit again, and push :p
04:44<Elyon>pnml = preprocessed nml?
04:44<@planetmaker>well... rather the contrary :D
04:44<Elyon>preprocessablenml
04:44<@planetmaker>yeah :)
04:45<@planetmaker>but plain nml is also preprocessable
04:45<Elyon>I see. So you want me to run the gcc C preprocessor through the (p)nml file, spit out an nml file, and run nmlc on that?
04:45<Elyon>even though I use no preprocessor directives?
04:45<Elyon>can do :)
04:46<@planetmaker>well... yes, no. Using the same makefile for all projects makes it MUCH easier for me to maintain it
04:46<@planetmaker>I guess, you don't worry, and I'll later add the usual makefile
04:46<Elyon>okay, I will let you handle the makefile then. So all I have to do is rename the file to .pnml?
04:46<@planetmaker>(I use gcc mostly to allow using #include to nicely split code in sensible chunks
04:47<@planetmaker>well... I can do that in the same commit, no worries
04:47<Elyon>okay then!
04:47<@planetmaker>but that's why I asked :)
04:47<@planetmaker>then I'll just setup that thing
04:47<Elyon>awesome, thanks! Let me push first though?
04:47<Elyon>(pull before push, etc., I know :D)
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04:48<@planetmaker>sure
04:48<@planetmaker>I'm not lightening fast in adjust the generic one to a project either :)
04:49<Elyon>well I wouldn't be surprised if you were!
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04:51<Elyon>okay, push'd
04:51<Elyon>forgive the messy code, this /is/ my first newgrf :D
04:51<Elyon>(well, technically this is Zephyris' newgrf, but it is the first I have collaborated on)
04:51<@planetmaker>no worries
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04:52<@planetmaker>also, if you code it, it's as much yours as Zephyris' NewGRF
04:52<Elyon>I guess? Still Zephyris' project though :D
04:52<@planetmaker>he's mission commander here, yes :)
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05:18<@planetmaker>Elyon, do you have a *nix like system?=
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05:19<marp>Hey is possible to swap carriages on a train via orders?
05:20<@planetmaker>nope
05:20<@planetmaker>you can refit carriages though, if they allow it
05:21<marp>Hmm, that seems to be a glaring gap, have any patches attempted to do it?
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05:21<@planetmaker>You likely just want to carry another cargo?
05:22<@planetmaker>Then refit might be what you need
05:22<marp>i want to pull ore hoppers on the way down, steel hoppers on the way up...
05:22<@planetmaker>not sure there are wagons which can be refit from ore to steel
05:23<marp>Basically i want to automate manually going to a depot, swapping carriages over, leaving depot
05:23<@planetmaker>honestly, it would also be unrealistic: you'd pile up steel hopers at the ore yard and ore hoppers at the steel yard
05:23<@planetmaker>(yay, realism playing in my favour :D )
05:24<@planetmaker>having hoppers carry coal one way and ore the other - that's feasible with the right NewGRFs
05:24<@planetmaker>e.g OpenGFX+ Trains, but others probably, too
05:26<@planetmaker>default vehicles (sadly) allow no refit whatsoever
05:27<marp>ah, that's why the refit option is there but greyed out
05:32<@planetmaker>In principle it's thinkable to implement a 'universal refit' in depots by NewGRFs, thus exactly what you suggest
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05:32<@planetmaker>I think no-one ever wrote a NewGRF though which implements it
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05:33<@planetmaker>would make it also a bit boring: you only ever need one wagon. And can exchange it all in the depot
05:33<@planetmaker>currently you need to think at least on the cargo class you want to transport
05:34<V453000>you mean wagon with ALL_CARGO_CLASSES?
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>i was considering something like that
05:35<V453000>those exist already :P
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>like "rollbock" for narrow gauge trains, which would simulate carrying any kind of wagon
05:36<V453000>haha
05:38<V453000>btw even DB set has ore-steel refit pm ;) I think NARS has them too
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but only for the slowest/smallest wagon generation
05:41<V453000>wagon speed limits for the dumb .P
05:41<V453000>marp: http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2010/06/11/public-server-game-186-review/
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: dbset does not work without wagonspeedlimits
05:42<V453000>it does?
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>the wagons disappear and the replacement wagons don't appear
05:42<V453000>the version in our grf pack does
05:42<V453000>I think it is the 5/5/5 one
05:42<V453000>also wtf is that, some counter-"wrong"-settings-mechanism? :D
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>it's a classic case of "it's not a bug, it's a feature"
05:43<V453000>but yeah those were just an example of "older" sets which do have such a wagon, nuts is obvious example :P
05:43<V453000>so yeah fuck db set too :D
05:44<Eddi|zuHause>well, technically you could go back to an openttd version before wagon lifetime was implemented :p
05:44<Eddi|zuHause>or you could just enable vehicles never expire :p
05:45<V453000>vehicles never expires has any influence on that? :D
05:45<Eddi|zuHause>(which is also discouraged by the readme)
05:45<V453000>LOL
05:45<V453000>is that some new kind of wtf DB set? :D
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05:52<Pikka>db set is ridiculous, design-wise
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05:52<Pikka>"this train ran with five cars in real life, therefore you can only use it with five cars in TTD"
05:55<Xaroth|Work>hehe
06:07<@planetmaker>Pikka, there are sets around which take these kind of things even much more seriously... (no, I don't wanna say names)
06:07<@planetmaker>but I find it sad, tbh
06:08<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: i give you that, and raise you a "this train ran with only two cars IRL, but i only allow you to run it with exactly 3 cars"
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06:11<Pikka>you should name names, planetmaker
06:17<@peter1138>pikka is named pikka
06:18<@peter1138>ukrs took things pretty seriously
06:18<Virtual>http://shib.us/tjAIWa.png
06:19<Pikka>ukrs was terrible :D
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06:20<Pikka>speaking of which
06:20<Pikka>hello andy
06:21<andythenorth>lo
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06:27<andythenorth>also bye :)
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06:28<@peter1138>burp
06:29*dihedral pats peter1138 on the back
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06:38<Elyon>planetmaker: sorry, was away. Yes, I run ubuntu, why?
06:38<@peter1138>Poor soul
06:39<Elyon>peter1138: tailored, mind you :)
06:39<Elyon>I'm alright. Used to run arch but I can't be bothered with /anything/ OS related anymore
06:39<Elyon>so it's just install ubuntu -> install vim -> install dwm -> done.
06:41<Elyon>planetmaker: by the way, I presume I will need to add the actual spritesheets to a folder visible to the repo in question for the automagic compiling to be performed, instead of referencing a super-repo-thing?
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07:06<@planetmaker>Elyon, if you push and pull on the main repo level, then repos will be updated automagically
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07:54<Elyon>"Don't ask to ask" is written twice in the topic. Coincidence? I think not!
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07:58<Xaroth|Work>it is not
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08:01<marp>Does a station's coverage area have to overlap all of an industry for maximum efficiency, or is one square overlapping enough?
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08:02<Elyon>marp: one square overlapping should be enough
08:02<Elyon>I could be wrong but I don't think I am?
08:02<Xaroth|Work>You're not wrong
08:03<Elyon>although, for some industries that have 1/8 passengers, you need to cover 8 tiles to actually /use/ those passengers, I think?
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08:05<@planetmaker>Elyon, I asked about OS as you now can simply call make and all will be fine
08:06<@planetmaker>using a makefile on windoze is more effort to get right
08:06<Elyon>planetmaker: I did and it is! \o/
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08:06<Elyon>planetmaker: Also, I have created a ./gfx/ folder in the repo and copied the sprite sheets there, let me know if I need to remove them again
08:07-!-planetmaker changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.4.0-beta3, 1.3.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | #openttd.dev for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices
08:07<@planetmaker>uh, no!
08:07<Elyon>:D
08:07<Elyon>no to which one?
08:07<@planetmaker>don't copy the sprites
08:07<Elyon>I won't, then
08:07<@planetmaker>use them from the graphics repo and use relative paths to there
08:08<Elyon>but the relative path I set was "../graphics/Buildings/foobar.png", is that correct?
08:08<V453000>pm see the other channel please (:
08:08<@planetmaker>yeah, looks correct
08:08<@planetmaker>didn't you mean a gfx path in houses dir?
08:10<Elyon>planetmaker: yes, I am reverting that change now. You didn't reply so I went ahead, didn't think your build system was "clever" enough to split stuff into correct sub- and superfolders :D
08:12<@planetmaker>ehm...
08:14<Elyon>or rather, I didn't know whether the directory structure on the central repos was the same as on my local machine, so - but all is well and fixed now
08:14<@planetmaker>please don't push a commit with gfx folder added...
08:15<@planetmaker>it's bloat :(
08:15<@planetmaker>adding a sub-folder gfx would make the whole sub-repo stuff obsolete. Would be much more trouble-free for me, yes
08:15<Elyon>I agree, I will see if I can find my way around it. Probably just repull and copy the .pnml and .lng files
08:15<Elyon>reclone, rather
08:16<@planetmaker>strip
08:16<Elyon>strip? I will look into it
08:16<Elyon>ergh
08:16<@planetmaker>maybe reclone is easier
08:16<Elyon>'strip everywhere in the country' was the first advertised result on google for 'hg strip'
08:16<Elyon>haha
08:16<Elyon>I'll look into both, see which one makes sense
08:17<Elyon>means I will have to put all of my five (!) commits into one "Feature" though :p
08:18<@planetmaker>hm, no. you could also qimport the changesets
08:18<@planetmaker>or was it qexport?
08:18<Elyon>no matter, I will just reclone, it's no big deal, everything committed was the same feature anyway
08:19<@planetmaker>anyway you can export changesets
08:19<Elyon>I understand completely why you don't want bloat in your repo. I personally refrain from committing binary files myself, but I just made the wrong assumption based on the graphics repo that you usually put binaries in repos. My mistake
08:19<@planetmaker>or hg bundle them to import with hg unbundle
08:20<@planetmaker>Well, we have the graphics to only have them once, yes :)
08:20<Elyon>yes, makes perfect sense. Your system is better structured than I first assumed :3
08:20<@planetmaker>tbh, this exact structure is something I wanted to try... sub-repos have rough edges
08:21<Elyon>oh? How so?
08:22<@planetmaker>for instance that if you commit in houses sub-repo, the parent repo will not automagically update - thus you have to commit at parent repo level to keep everything at latest rev
08:23<@planetmaker>though the idea is: you can have a library sub-repo - and develop all other stuff with a given version of the library. And only update the library when you feel like making appropriate code changes
08:23<Elyon>what are the pros and cons of this approach?
08:23<Elyon>ah, *reads*
08:24<Elyon>I should give that a try. I regularly write minilibraries for various things, and it would be nice to manage the library externally from the application
08:26<Elyon>repo recloned, updated, and pushed. Not a trace of binaries in any commits yet :)
08:26<Elyon>s/yet//
08:26<@planetmaker>:)
08:27<Elyon>now to figure out how to tell the /highest/ corner of a nearby tile from a house ... *dives into documentation*
08:28<Japa>Oh, I was just reading that part of the code, recently
08:33<LSky>is serverside autosave regulated by the normal autosave variable in the config?
08:33<@planetmaker>yes
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09:22<Elyon>planetmaker: oh, I could abuse `#include` in that case with the building blocks... Better not, though, as the code would be less readable (though more manageable?) - decisions, decisions
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09:23<@planetmaker>up to you :)
09:23<@planetmaker>I probably would have in the main file only #includes
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09:24<@planetmaker>add a header file, a sprite templates file. And then possibly one file per house
09:24<Elyon>that is actually exactly what I am doing now
09:24<@planetmaker>e.g. look at how opengfx+industries looks like
09:24<@planetmaker>well :)
09:25<Elyon>well, per house-type, that is. They share quite a lot of code as they're just graphical variants of 5 real-houses
09:25<@planetmaker>fair enough
09:26<Elyon>thanks for that makefile with preprocessing :3
09:27<@planetmaker>no worries. It's standard :P
09:27<@planetmaker>probably 95% of the newgrfs on devzone have one variation of it ;)
09:27<Elyon>^-^
09:28<@planetmaker>(and I wrote it to make this easy: copy, adjust names and be done with it)
09:28<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/make-nml ;)
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09:30<@planetmaker>and of course it's the Makefile I kinda can guarantee to work properly with build service
09:33<Elyon>so this means this project will be autobuilt at some point?
09:34<@planetmaker>yes
09:35<@planetmaker>build-on-push, nightly build and release builds (tags)
09:35<@planetmaker>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/ <-- like all these
09:36<@planetmaker>seems that I might even have a look at that tonight. The friend whom I wanted to meet called in sick
09:36<@planetmaker>Elyon, and I guess we can also enable translations, right?
09:37<@planetmaker>https://translator.openttdcoop.org/projects
09:37<Elyon>oh, you'd have to ask Zephyris about that I think. I don't want to make any decisions about the project, only about the code :p
09:37<@planetmaker>I think we can make that decision :)
09:37<Elyon>planetmaker: also that build setup sounds lush :D
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09:38<Elyon>well, I can only do da_DK myself. And en_GB + en_US of course
09:38<@planetmaker>https://jenkins.openttdcoop.org/ <-- the actual build service
09:39<@planetmaker>should I assign you da_DK translator? :)
09:39<Elyon>for this project?
09:39<@planetmaker>generally
09:39<Elyon>huh. Hmm. I guess? :D
09:39<@planetmaker>devzone has no Danish speaking translator yet :D
09:39<Elyon>I hound the webtranslator for untranslated strings
09:39<Elyon>well, it has now >:3
09:40<@planetmaker>indeed ;)
09:40<@planetmaker>you'll now have many projects in your list :P
09:40<Elyon>I bet I will
09:40<Elyon>so what, I just translate some strings when I feel like it?
09:40<@planetmaker>I'd leave en_US to native speakers. And en_GB is default... so I guess you commit that right away
09:40<@planetmaker>yeah, like that
09:41<Elyon>and yeah, da_DK should be more than enough
09:41<@planetmaker>which and when you feel like
09:41<Elyon>open sauce :3 etc.
09:41<@planetmaker>do you know openttd translation service?
09:41<Elyon>I use it
09:41<@planetmaker>this works about the same
09:41<Elyon>I translated like 150 strings the other day
09:41<@planetmaker>aye :)
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09:41<Elyon>ah, good to hear. It's easy to use :D
09:42<@planetmaker>totally different programme, but similar to use
09:42<@planetmaker>eints commits automatically once a day its changes to repos (if they allow)
09:42<@planetmaker>I allowed it :P
09:42<@planetmaker>for the mars projects
09:43<@planetmaker>this can be configured with the files in .devzone/translations
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09:44<Elyon>okay, awesome
09:44<@planetmaker>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/home/wiki/ManagingEints
09:44<@planetmaker>(but I added all that along with Makefile in this case)
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09:45<Elyon>I noticed!
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09:46<Elyon>planetmaker: well, let me know when I can start translating the strings I added myself :p
09:46<Elyon>also: /many/ pnml files now for the houses project
09:46<@planetmaker>can't you already?
09:47<@planetmaker>hm, seems not
09:47<@planetmaker>oh, yes, there it is actually
09:48<Elyon>hoh woah lots of projects
09:49<@planetmaker>yeah :P
09:49<Elyon>well, opengfx needs three strings.
09:49<@planetmaker>German translation done :D
09:49<Elyon>for everything?
09:50<@planetmaker>yeah... well... 'needs'. It really only needs the one which is translated, but yeah :)
09:50<@planetmaker>No, for Mars Houses
09:50<@planetmaker>Not sure I'll ever manage to translate the 1k+ strings in the xussr set
09:51<Elyon>oh dear, wow
09:51<@planetmaker>but that's why we have a web service. Easy for several to work on it
09:51<Elyon>also awesome!
09:51<@Belugas>hello
09:51<@planetmaker>hi Belugas
09:51<Elyon>hiya ^-^
09:53<@Belugas>sir maker!
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09:54<Elyon>Danish translation done :p
09:54<@planetmaker>snowy over there, Mr Whale?
09:56<LSky>Going by this ( http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=985784#p985784 ) is it currently not possible to run Autopilot on Windows using Active TCL + the convert.exe tool from GLX?
09:56<@planetmaker>LSky, it's tricky at least
09:57<@planetmaker>I know of no successful attempt
09:57<@planetmaker>LSky, I can recommend soap instead :)
09:57<LSky>soap?
09:57<@planetmaker>soap :) the supybot plugin we replaced autopilot with for the coop servers
09:57<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Soap
09:58<LSky>Ah good, it has an IRC bridge
09:58<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/soap/repository/entry/README.txt
09:58<LSky>thats mainly what I was looking for anyway
09:58<@planetmaker>of course. Or it would not be a replacement
09:58<@planetmaker>we manage servers 99% by IRC
09:58<@planetmaker>additionally it's capable to control not only one but several servers. And offers logging
09:59<@planetmaker>you can also run soap on a totally different machine than the server itself as it uses the admin port
10:00<LSky>The OFS explanation mentions user@host
10:00<LSky>what is meant by that?
10:00<@planetmaker>login + machine
10:01<LSky>is that relevant to a desktop Windows run server?
10:01<@planetmaker>also a windows desktop can allow different users
10:01<LSky>right, but assuming that this isnt the case, do I just put it in a folder that isnt somewhere crazily hidden?
10:02<@planetmaker>so if in your home dir is the server, it must not be in your brother's home dir
10:02<@planetmaker>I think so
10:04<@planetmaker>I haven't setup myself any instance of soap. So with detailed questions, best ask Ta ede when he's around
10:04<LSky>ill just give it a go
10:04<LSky>the readme seems quite detailed
10:05<@planetmaker>yeah, he does a good job there. I keep asking stupid questions. Bad memory and so on ;)
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10:44<Elyon>planetmaker: is it possible to disable water? It ruins the martian feel :p
10:45<Elyon>that wasn't actually aimed at you, but feel free to answer if you do know it :D
10:47<@planetmaker>no, you can't. Only at map creation level
10:47<@planetmaker>but not at NewGRF level
10:49<@peter1138>Just pretend that Mars had water...
10:49<Elyon>we're playing in the future, not the past
10:50<Elyon>:D
10:50<@planetmaker>Mars had and has water. Just not liquid on the surface... ;)
10:51<@planetmaker>Elyon, but then, water could be modelled as frozen-over water
10:51<@planetmaker>like on polar caps
10:52<@planetmaker>(even though most ice on the polar caps is CO2, but who cares?)
10:52<@planetmaker>18┬Ám annual precipitation simply is not much :P
10:56<Elyon>planetmaker: you made ogfx-mars-landscape so far, yes? Would it be possible to have different water sprites for different climates? If so, it /could/ be dust lakes in the other three climates, but ... I don't know
10:56<@planetmaker>yes, that's easily feasible
10:57<Elyon>I need an option called `Sea Level: Nope`
10:57<@planetmaker>could even be a simple parameter, independent of climate
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10:57<@planetmaker>you have an option: water%: 0
10:57<Elyon>%?
10:57<@planetmaker>map configuration
10:57<Elyon>with the options being `0` and `100`? :p
10:58<@planetmaker>0,1,2,...100
10:58<Elyon>err, s/`/'/
10:58<Elyon>but how would 72% water look?
10:58<@planetmaker>island scenario. quite nice
10:58<@planetmaker>good for shipping games
10:58<Elyon>oh, but this is not newgrf manageable, is it?
10:58<@planetmaker>no
10:59<Elyon>we're talking patching openttd?
10:59<@planetmaker>no :)
10:59*Elyon is thoroughly confused
10:59<@planetmaker>it's simply what the player can set on map creation
10:59<Elyon>wait a s--
11:00<Elyon>okay what.
11:00<Elyon>I never noticed T_T
11:00<Elyon>it only goes to 1% though
11:00<@planetmaker>I noticed :P
11:00<Elyon>shush!
11:00<Elyon>:D
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11:16<Elyon>is there any reason /not/ to use pure white in sprites, bar the compiler warnings?
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11:31<Aristide>O/
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11:42<Pikka>Elyon: I believe pure white pixels don't fade when the "game ends", if OpenTTD still does that. Might also do funny things with the newspaper black & white, I don't recall.
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11:58<Elyon>Pikka: interesting. I will avoid them, then.
11:58<Elyon>thanks :)
11:59<Pikka>ho ho, Admiral AI
11:59<@Terkhen>IIRC I did not manage to get the game to generate no water while coding the custom sea level option
11:59<@Terkhen>hello btw :)
11:59<Pikka>it's built a loop with double-platform stations and 10 signal blocks. and 13 trains.
12:00<Pikka>so at any given time, only one train is moving. it shuffles forward a block, then the one behind shuffles forward a block, and so on. :)
12:00<Elyon>wondarfull
12:01<Pikka>hello Terkhen
12:04<Andreas>sounds like me when eating to much. have to wait till one bite has gone down a bit before I can take a new one :p
12:05<Pinkbeast>In fairness to AdmiralAI I've done that once or twice :-/
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12:24<@planetmaker>Elyon, yes, there is. Pure white behaves differently with transparency / recolouring. Most important for vehicles
12:25<@planetmaker>i.e. white is not recoloured when they crash
12:25<Pinkbeast>i.e. or e.g.?
12:25<Elyon>planetmaker: oh, I see. Refraining from use unless very specifically needing the functionality of purewhiteness, then
12:26<@planetmaker>yeah. Its use Pikka actually described well: background of newspaper
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12:31<@planetmaker>Elyon, you might also join #openttdcoop.devzone :D
12:33<frosch123>anyone understands FS#5887?
12:33<Elyon>ah
12:34<Pikka>no, nobody, frosch123
12:34<@planetmaker>frosch123, he wants to circumvent NewGRF's random
12:34<@planetmaker>I do not believe that it's even feasible as things work as designed
12:34<frosch123>is there any randomness in isr?
12:35<@planetmaker>maybe with where a hut is placed or so or how the coal pile looks. Not entirely sure though
12:35<@planetmaker>But at least CHIPS does things like that, possibly ISR and DWE, too
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12:47<Elyon>oh no, a spelling mistake in en_GB!
12:48<frosch123>is __ln__ slacking off?
12:48<@planetmaker>probably :D
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13:16<@planetmaker>hm... my openttd hangs on exit
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13:18<@planetmaker>but seems my sdl is acting up... https://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3037/
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26287 trunk/src/lang/lithuanian.txt (2014-01-30 18:45:10 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 1 changes by Stabilitronas
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13:50<Elyon>okay I cannot find anything on this in the documentation, as it is 'out of the scope' of the articles that mention it. How do I just /get/, say, tileindex for tile 0x0800 in an AI?
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13:51<@Alberth>tile 0x0800 ?
13:51<Elyon>well
13:51<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
13:51<Elyon>any tile
13:51<Elyon>just to get me started
13:52<Elyon>I can't find anything that actually returns a TileIndex
13:52<Elyon>unless it also takes a TileIndex as parameter
13:52<Wolf01>hello o/
13:53<frosch123>Elyon: http://noai.openttd.org/api/trunk/classAIMap.html#7b2cd7d08369c705fd522b870739e5aa
13:53<Elyon>frosch123: why thank you, I completely missed that :$
13:53<frosch123>yw :)
13:54<@Alberth>oh, frosch was quicker :) hi hi
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15:21<lbalbalba>hi
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15:21<frosch123>hola
15:22<V453000>hy unifrog
15:22<lbalbalba>i really have a question for Alberth... but if hes not around perhaps others can enlighten me :P
15:22<@Alberth>I am not?
15:22<lbalbalba>oh
15:23<lbalbalba>ooopppsss
15:23<lbalbalba>can i ask you a question about something you posted on the forums ?
15:23<@Alberth>try if you can do that?
15:23<lbalbalba>ok here goes:
15:24<lbalbalba>in this post : http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=69917#p1110144
15:24<@Alberth>ie, in general, don't ask whether you can ask questions :)
15:24<lbalbalba>you mentioned that " step 1 and step 2 have the same variable, and the same end condition, so either both end conditions are false or they are both true. "
15:24<lbalbalba>im woindering why someone whould check the same condition *twice* , instead of doing it all in the same check/loop
15:26<@Alberth>usually ease of coding; first do one thing entirely, then do the next thing entirely
15:26<lbalbalba>why do 'check conditonfoo, do loop1, checkconditionfoo, do loop2
15:27<lbalbalba>wehn you can do: check conditionfoo, doo loop1 loop2 loopx
15:27<frosch123>because in thise case there is important stuff between loop1 and loop2
15:27<@Alberth>when loop1 affects the condition, both tests can be different
15:27<frosch123>WriteHeader specifically
15:27<lbalbalba>ah
15:29<lbalbalba>guess that would be a hard case to reason about correctly for a program like a static code analyzer ;)
15:30<frosch123>well, most of the false reports about bounds checks of dynamic arrays
15:30<@Alberth>luckily humans can still outsmart a compiler :)
15:31<lbalbalba>yes, lets pray that the day never comes when compilers can outsmart a human ;P skynet here we come
15:31<frosch123>well, your opinion will no longer matter then :p
15:31<lbalbalba>lol
15:32<lbalbalba>so most of the reports in there was false positives then ? bummer. i was led to believe that the llvm/clang analyzer was quite mature
15:33<frosch123>well, it's more like rb recently used a different static analyser and eliminated most of issues
15:33<@Alberth>oh, I am sure it can find lots of stuff on average
15:33<lbalbalba>oh its 'too little, too late' :(
15:33<frosch123>so you are not running it on a virgin project, but one which is already prefiltered :)
15:33<@Rubidium>lbalbalba: even in coverity the (almost super) majority seems to be false positives
15:34<@Alberth>openttd code is being looked at, and refactored all the time
15:34<lbalbalba>Rubidium: fsck coverity. thats a commercial project ;)
15:34<frosch123>it is also not unusual than an report is correct, but the code is still intended as it :)
15:34<frosch123>s/than/that
15:34<lbalbalba>huh ?
15:34<lbalbalba>oh
15:34<Xaroth|Work>Coverity is quite nice tbh
15:34<@Rubidium>lots and lots of complains about accessing uninitialised memory, but not noticing that the allocator of the class already zeros the memory
15:35<frosch123>at work we ran a code analyser on c (as in not c++) code
15:35<frosch123>in that code it is very common to first zero-initialise a struct with memset before using it
15:36<frosch123>but then the analyser complanis about not reading the value before the next assignment :p
15:36<lbalbalba>hrm. sounds like i seriously need to convince people here to submit bug reports to llvm/clang so it gets better :)
15:37<frosch123>funnily in c++ that does not happen, because the analyser does not consider assignment after ctor-construction a re-assignment
15:37<@Rubidium>the alloca thing seems bogus too
15:37<frosch123>lbalbalba: you just cannot expect that there are zero false positives
15:38<lbalbalba>oh i dont expect that
15:38<Xaroth|Work>Perfect code is unwritten code :)
15:38<lbalbalba>but i do expect there to be actual bugs oncovered
15:38<lbalbalba>preferably more bugs than fals epositives
15:38<frosch123>well, you did :p
15:39<frosch123>the clang compile warning was one
15:39<frosch123>it's listed under "analyser failures" :)
15:39<lbalbalba>thats were the checker crashed :(
15:40<frosch123>yeah, but that code was wrong. so the analyser failed where it had the chance to shine :p
15:40<lbalbalba>oh, and i didnt really mean to bash coverity. its done lots of good work on scanning open source projects. i just want open source to be better at it
15:40<lbalbalba>:)
15:41<@Rubidium>lbalbalba: but clang is better; it has fewer false positives than coverity
15:41<lbalbalba>whhooopee !
15:41<lbalbalba>lol
15:42<frosch123>for that you also have to compare the quantity of valid positives :p
15:42<frosch123>i can easily write an analyser with zero false positives :p
15:42<lbalbalba>me too !
15:42<lbalbalba>lol
15:43<@Rubidium>coverity: 417 defects, 146 fixes, 271 false positive
15:44<lbalbalba>im sur ethis analyzer finds zero false positives: int main() { while(1) {} };
15:44<frosch123>so, run clang on trunk before those 146 were fixed
15:45<lbalbalba>still, 146 real bugs so far
15:45<lbalbalba>sounds way better than manualy analyzing/readin/reasoning 1000000 lines of code
15:45<@planetmaker>only 300k+ ;)
15:45<@planetmaker>and... not sure it would have been done manually tbh
15:46<@planetmaker>not this systematically
15:47<lbalbalba>of course humans would not do that. let the robots do what they do best: repetitive montonmous actions
15:47<@planetmaker>^^
15:47<lbalbalba>'montonmous' is that evevn a valid english word ?
15:47<@Rubidium>I think http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/rev/4daac38fa01e is the first one of the 'fixes'
15:47<Taede>monotonous
15:47<lbalbalba>ah., thank you
15:47<Taede>i think
15:48<@Rubidium>and as you can see, the 'fixes' aren't really significant at best; it's just dumping info on the console
15:49<frosch123>lbalbalba: we have many humans who monotonously build tracks and engines
15:49<@planetmaker>lol
15:49<lbalbalba>Rubidium: you mean the analyze cant assign 'weight' to the severity of the report ?
15:49<lbalbalba>frosch123: tyhat sucks. lets prtogram a bot to do that for them
15:50<lbalbalba>sorry for the typos
15:52<lbalbalba>okay. so thanks for answering the original question. it has been enlightening. thank all
15:55<lbalbalba>well, knowing coverity was here first was helpful. see you all later. time to eat now
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16:22<frosch123>night
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17:48<Wolf01>'night
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18:06<Andreas>hi
18:07<Aristide>Andreas: o/
18:07<Andreas>Is the ""Disable infrastructure building when no suitable vehicles are available" function broken or am I not understanding the effect it should have correctly? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=69924
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19:23<slee>ok, this isn't much help...on the openttd wiki page: "Tips for Town Growth" - ...or increase acceptance of cargos such as Goods.....how does one 'increase acceptance'? i have a train/goods train running through there, but the station won't accept goods, only passengers/mail
19:24<slee>i have my headquarters there, brought population up from 300 to 700, ran large ad campaign, funding buildings..everything i can see to do, just can't get them to accept goods
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20:50<Elyon>slee: 700 is still a small town
20:51<slee>it finally started accepting, thanks
20:51<Elyon>slee: you can query the house tiles to see their acceptance of goods using the question mark icon in the top right hand corner of the menu
20:51<slee>it's at about 2500 now
20:51<Elyon>oh okay :)
20:51<Elyon>well, it also depends on where you place your station
20:51<slee>right
20:51<Elyon>basically, you will see numbers like "Acceptance of goods (3/8)" when querying a specific house type
20:52<Elyon>you need to cover enough of those kinds of houses to reach at least 8/8 goods acceptance with your station coverage
20:52<slee>i thought i had industried 'won't disappear' in settings..but i JUST setup a new station next to a forest, first train entered, filled up to about 20%...forest vanished
20:53<Elyon>you can "cheat" and keep ctrl held while building stations or lorry stops to join them together. Building a lorry stop in the middle of a town and connecting it this way to your (possibly further away) train station is a good way to get goods acceptance even from smaller towns
20:53<Elyon>and I don't think there is such a setting as 'industries won't disappear', but let me check :)
20:54<Elyon>I think what you set was "News and Messages" for closing of industries, maybe?
20:54<Elyon>that only changes whether you're notified of their closure, not whether they actually close
20:54<slee>oh
20:55<Elyon>sorry about the delay in answering, by the way :)
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20:56<Elyon>I think most people in here are GMT +/-2
20:56<slee>np
20:56<slee>i'm -5
20:56<Elyon>east coast?
20:56<Elyon>or brazil or something?
20:58<Supercheese>GMT -8, representin'
20:58<Elyon>good evening :)
20:58<slee>alabama(us)
20:58<Hazzard>:|
20:58<Elyon>alabama is -5? huh ...
20:58<Supercheese>Idaho
20:59<Elyon>oh, of course
20:59<Elyon>-6 from me :p
20:59<Supercheese>right on the eastern edge of -8, really
20:59<Supercheese>you can drive straight south and hit GMT -7 :P
20:59<Elyon>hehe
20:59<Supercheese>timezones :|
20:59<Elyon>weird, that
21:00<Elyon>timezones \o/
21:00<Elyon>well, /o\
21:00<Elyon>that's why we have GMT
21:00<Elyon>or UTC
21:00<Supercheese>and DST
21:00<Elyon>double standards!
21:00<Elyon>DST sucks in the long run
21:00<Supercheese>yeah
21:00<Elyon>it's trying to fix a broken system
21:00<Supercheese>I blame Franklin
21:01<Supercheese>think it was him
21:01<Elyon>either way you blame him
21:01<Elyon>I like it
21:01<Supercheese>crazy old Ben
21:02<Elyon>we should all just agree to use UTC, but we have! In computers
21:03<Elyon>comp-utahs
21:03<Supercheese>'puters
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21:31<slee>sorry, had to step away, - 6 hours here in bamaland(not -5)
21:33<slee>hmm..i'm still confused as to how a forest vanished while i was loading from it, i thought forest was an industry that never vanishes seeing that it's replanted
21:41<Elyon>no, every industry might close with poor service through some time
21:42<Elyon>you can always enable construction while paused, build your connections, and then not waste potential closing-time construction the connection
21:42<Elyon>if you're into that :)
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22:14<Elyon>is it possible to join AI companies while they're doing their thing?
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---Logclosed Fri Jan 31 00:00:55 2014