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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-02-01

---Logopened Sat Feb 01 00:00:59 2014
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03:38<Japa_>moin moin
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04:07<andythenorth>@seen pikka
04:07<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 10 hours, 18 minutes, and 23 seconds ago: <Pikka> psh. PBS is all you need!
04:07<andythenorth>upside down land
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04:30*LordAro mornings
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05:41<Elyon>another day, another nfo nightmare
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05:52<andythenorth>bon Pikka chops
05:52<andythenorth>so maths....
05:53<Pikka>oui oui
05:53<Pikka>not really
05:53<Pikka>mostly fudge
05:53<andythenorth>it's ok, I can do sums with fudge
05:53*andythenorth currently toddler wrangling
05:54<andythenorth>so no sums
05:54<Pikka>incidentally, I just doubled the running costs for my trains (by increasing the multiplier by 1) ;)
05:54<Pikka>fun times
05:57<Pikka>I just realised I should put the vehicle I'm working on in a separate grf, rather than spend five minutes recompiling the whole thing every time I want to see my changes in-game...
05:58<@peter1138>just change the ini file
05:58<@peter1138>or was it xml?
06:01<andythenorth>Pikka: same problem in FIRS, there's a compiler flag I use to get one industry
06:01<andythenorth>otherwise I have to drink a lot of coffee
06:02<@Alberth>hyper andy :)
06:02<andythenorth>let's have a non-compiled newgrf format :P
06:02<@Alberth>users just type the newgrf bytes
06:02<andythenorth>I would love writing code in xml :P
06:03<andythenorth>that would be super
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06:03<@planetmaker>and we send sheets of ascii characters which they need to type in? cool :)
06:03<Pikka>locomotion is xml... yuck.
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06:08<andythenorth><node>0F 0A 02 16 FA FF 0C 20 10 1A FF FF</node>
06:11<@planetmaker>sounds totally legible
06:14<andythenorth>stupid OS X
06:14<andythenorth>ran out of battery and shut down
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06:19<@Alberth>shouldn't it be like <node><byte base="16">0F</byte> <byte base="16">0A</byte> <byte base="16">02</byte> <byte base="16">16</byte> <byte base="16">FA</byte> <byte base="16">FF</byte> <byte base="16">0C</byte> <byte base="16">20</byte> <byte base="16">10</byte> <byte base="16">1A</byte> <byte base="16">FF</byte> <byte base="16">FF</byte></node> ?
06:21<andythenorth>dunno, doesn't seem as user friendly as my suggestion
06:21<andythenorth>I think they key here is user friendliness
06:22<andythenorth>I could probably have the parser split on whitespace, write new nodes into the xml tree for the format you're suggesting
06:22<andythenorth>in fact we could have a compile step for it
06:23<andythenorth>Fast and Power I actually need to provide values for per vehicle?
06:25<Pikka>yeah, they're the controls... if you leave them all the same, you'll get a progression of vehicles based on the year, but everything will be middle-of-the-road
06:25<Pikka>you can dial down power to get a shunter, dial up fast to get an express loco, etc.
06:26<andythenorth>let's see
06:26<andythenorth>I already have some fuel_run_cost_factor and fixed_run_cost_factor
06:26<andythenorth>which is copied from shipses
06:26<andythenorth>maybe I can put that into your formula
06:26<andythenorth>fixed_run_cost_factor = number of crew :P
06:26<Pikka>such hybrid fudgery!
06:27<andythenorth>for shame
06:27<andythenorth>where is the realism?
06:27<@Alberth>andythenorth: I used a substitution expression s/\([0-9A-F][0-9A-F]\)/<byte base="16">\1<\/byte>/g
06:28<andythenorth>Alberth: I like that
06:28<andythenorth>ideally we need more / and \ characters
06:28<andythenorth>can we escape escapes?
06:28<@Alberth>\c\a\n\ \w\e\?
06:29<Elyon>\\\c\\\a\\\n\\\ \\\w\\\e\\\?, you mean?
06:29<andythenorth>Pikka: is 'fast' relative to other locos at the time, or is it a pure dibble?
06:30<Pikka>relative to other locos at the time
06:31<Japa_>is this some kind of automatic train grf generator?
06:31<Pikka>train stat generator, Japa_
06:32<Japa_>it should generate graphics
06:33<andythenorth>that has been doen
06:33<andythenorth>done *
06:33<andythenorth>I have an automatic truck set generator
06:33<andythenorth>but it was boring
06:33<Pikka>andy: "chep" is a cost debuff for trains below the tech level. It was a control, but it's now just an intermediate calculated value.
06:34*andythenorth does some codes
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>i have crude boxy generated sprites
06:44<andythenorth>some are better than crude?
06:44<andythenorth>I saw some wagons somewhere
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>everything that's better than crude is hand drawn
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07:04<Wolf01>hi hi
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07:13<@Alberth>hi hi
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07:17<Pikka>ho ho
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08:04<andythenorth>Pikka: does this look right for chep? :P
08:04<andythenorth> return (2-(fast+power), 1)[fast+power<=1]
08:05<andythenorth>you may point out that I have given you no language context :P
08:05<Pikka>I may
08:05<Pikka>it looks about right :P
08:05<andythenorth>(False, True)[test]
08:06<andythenorth>output numbers look right
08:07<andythenorth>oh how funky
08:07<andythenorth>I'm calculating wagon running costs too :P
08:07<Pikka>I used much simpler calculations for wagons :P
08:08<Pikka>particularly since I don't have any generations, so statting by year is out
08:09<andythenorth>my buy numbers are coming out differently now
08:09<@Alberth>hmm, [fast|power] ?
08:11<@Alberth>fast+power<=1 is 1 if at least one of them is true, right? fast|power is also true if at least one of them is true
08:11<@Alberth>s/also true/also 1/
08:12<@Alberth>perhaps s/|/ or / if you're talking python
08:12<andythenorth>does a value >1 still evaluate to True?
08:12<andythenorth>I assume so
08:12<@Alberth>in python it does
08:13<@Alberth>although I am against use of boolean values :)
08:13<@Alberth>but "fast or power" is just false or true
08:14<@Alberth>hmm return 2-(fast or power) should work too
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08:17<Elyon>is there something I should know about building sprite indices when using advanced sprite layouts? I've tried both the +42D approach, the \d0 approach, and the \d80000000 approach, all I get is random game sprites instead of the custom sprites I've loaded
08:17<Elyon>topic: newgrf/NFO
08:21<Elyon>it was the +42D approach plus the \dx80000000 approach
08:21<Elyon>well nevermind :D
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08:30<efess>Any admins here from
08:33<@Alberth>if you don't have login problems, usually, the easiest way is to press the ! button, and type them a pm
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08:35<efess>email activation isn't working :(
08:36<efess>also, seems like someone fixed this one, what's the process of getting it into trunk?
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08:37<LordAro>orudge: ^
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08:40<andythenorth>oh he's gone :)
08:43<Pokka>who is?
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09:04<andythenorth>Pikka: HP - calculated? o_O
09:04<Pikka>everything is calculated
09:05<Pikka>except the fast and power controls :P
09:05<andythenorth>that makes sense
09:05<andythenorth>I didn't notice that at first :P
09:06<Pikka>and the introduction year
09:06<andythenorth>it's appealing to me because I'm lazy
09:06<andythenorth>but Dan likes to specify specific HP
09:06<andythenorth>so I might hack at the formula a bit more
09:06<Pikka>you can wiggle the power control until you get the hp you want
09:07<Pikka>if you're targetting a particular hp
09:07<andythenorth>I am +1 to this, deciding stats is boring :P
09:07<Pikka>and it will adjust the costs, weights, etc, accordingly
09:07<Pikka>and you can wiggle the fast control if you're targetting a particular mph :P
09:07<andythenorth>I might steal this for SomeTruckSet
09:08<Pikka>do you want my spreadsheet for someothertruckset to look at?
09:08<andythenorth>why not
09:08<Pikka>let me prettify it a little first
09:10<andythenorth>MU capacity?
09:10<andythenorth>might ignore that for now
09:10<Pikka>it just adds a little to the running cost, it's fairly ignorable
09:12<andythenorth>negative running costs
09:12<Pikka>you broke it!
09:12<andythenorth>that's funky
09:12<andythenorth>I am not using calculated stats, it's breaks it :P
09:12<andythenorth>speed and power disagree with your table currently
09:12<Pikka>if you turn the knobs too hard it breaks, for sure
09:12<Pikka>prototypical HPs might be out of range
09:13<Pikka>real trains are way too powerful for TTD, trains which reach top speed half a tile out of the station and just stay there are boring :P
09:13<andythenorth>I think it's the wagons :)
09:13<andythenorth>they all have the same calc applied
09:14<Pikka>oh, wogans
09:14<andythenorth>anyone know how to uncrash python? o_O
09:14<andythenorth>ctrl-c is not worky
09:14<@Alberth>the >>> prompt?
09:15<andythenorth>nah, it's runing a script
09:15<andythenorth>the error handling crashes horribly
09:15<@Alberth>you don't want a stack dump or so?
09:15<@Alberth>how "crash" ?
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09:19<@Alberth>perhaps exception handling of nml can be inspirational :)
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09:24<andythenorth>Alberth: gtg, but I'll paste something later ;)
09:24<andythenorth>somebody broke the error handling in python somehow
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10:50<@planetmaker>Alberth, in which package do I find g++ on fedora20?
10:51<@Alberth>very logical :p
10:51<@Alberth>just install all c/c++ development stuff :)
10:52<@planetmaker>I installed gcc as package description said it has also g++... but... well :)
10:52<@planetmaker>thanks :)
10:53<@Alberth>it probably does, ccache sounds like it's just caching complilations
10:55<TinoDidriksen>Yeah, ccache merely depends on gcc-g++
10:55<@planetmaker>ah... gcc-c++
10:58<@planetmaker>package names are a bit strange at times. But the system runs out-of box quite nicely
10:58<@planetmaker>only custom partitioning didn't didn't work out on install
11:04<@Alberth>upgrading to the next version also fails for me, I normally just re-install the OS from scratch
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11:05<@planetmaker>it wasn't upgrade. Virgin hard disk, no 'old' disks connected which could confuse it
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11:11<@Alberth>just telling you :)
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12:45<@peter1138>"i.e. a Factory can accept: Steel, Copper (rafined from Copper Ore), Aluminium (rafined from Bauxite), Lumber, Rubber, Plastic, Paper to produce goods"
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12:45<@peter1138>cos "Metal" is too complex?
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12:47<@Alberth>to make one big central do-everything factory :)
12:50<slee>ugh, i just realized you can't remove these antennas
12:51<frosch123>it's their only purpose
12:52<Sacro>I need path based presignals
12:52<Sacro>I want a train to reserve through multiple signals
12:52<@Alberth>how is that different than one long block?
12:56<Sacro>Alberth: can get a shorter headway
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12:57<@Alberth>I don't understand, if a train has to reserve through 5 blocks, it cannot move until it has a path through 5 blocks, right?
13:01<slee>reading up on stand alone(dedicated) server for openttd...i can't find whether or not map size is still limitted to 2048x2048....can you make the map bigger on a server? i'm thinking of setting up a personal server on my mythbuntu box
13:02<Sacro>Alberth: yep
13:02<Sacro>but the train behind can go when it has cleared the first block
13:02<Sacro>not wait for it to clear the 5th
13:02<frosch123>Sacro: i believe there are two patches for that
13:03<@Alberth>how is the 2nd train going to reserve the block with the first train ?
13:06<+glx>slee: dedicated is just a client without video
13:06<Sacro>Alberth: you wouldn't have as many as 5 really
13:06<+glx>all calculation are done on both
13:06<Sacro>more like 2/3 on the entry to a station
13:06<frosch123>Sacro: <- patches in first and third post
13:07<Sacro>frosch123: thanks, but i'm fed up with patching
13:07<Sacro>I want infrastructure sharing, daylength, timetable seperation
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13:07<Sacro>and it to not desync constant
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13:08<frosch123>at least you do not want copy&paste :p
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13:22<slee>i installed the north american roads set and dropped one of each bridge to see what they looked like, the wooden bridge graphics are flawed..anyone experiencing that?
13:24<@planetmaker>known issue. newgrf bug
13:24<slee>wasn't sure if maybe i had conflicting grfs(i'm a noob to openttd)
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26288 trunk/src/lang/polish.txt (2014-02-01 18:45:14 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>polish - 1 changes by wojteks86
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13:59<Pikka>always the same problem with creating newgrfs
13:59<Pikka>you get about 60% done, then you just sit there watching the trains go by
14:00<@Alberth>that also happens to me when playing an OpenTTD game :)
14:01<Pikka>isn't that what you're supposed to do when playing an OpenTTD game? :P
14:02<@Alberth>it is for me :)
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14:16<@planetmaker>that sounds very familiar, Pikka :)
14:18<Pikka>I suppose it has been a fairly productive couple of weeks, though :)
14:22<@planetmaker>623M pota-ghat/
14:22<@planetmaker> ;)
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14:25<Pikka>with 32bpp/ez becoming mainstream, the people who load up every newgrf they can find are going to find themselves running out of memory :)
14:26<Taede>remember theyll want to play on 2048x2048 maps, or bigger
14:32<FLHerne>Pikka: Not really, OTTD uses far less memory than most other things these days
14:33<FLHerne>I suspect the 'every grf' mindset may carry over into hardware, too
14:39<@planetmaker>Pikka, there's at most 4GB of sprite memory which OpenTTD allows to allocate. And you can limit it further (but slowing things down)
14:40<Pikka>so I should be aiming to make a 4gb newgrf, is what you're saying?
14:41<@planetmaker>:D better not :)
14:42<Xaroth|Work>planetmaker: even on the x64 builds?
14:42<@planetmaker>Xaroth, yes... that's the max OpenTTD will try to allocate
14:43<Xaroth|Work>pff :P
14:46<efess>4gb is so last year
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14:49<FLHerne>I keep making silly design mistakes in my hobby-project that make it eat GBs on a whim :-/
14:50<FLHerne>I guess designing things that don't need million-element arrays of things is one of those important coding skills :P
14:52<@planetmaker>@calc 60000 * 256*128*4 / 1024/1024
14:52<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 7500
15:12<frosch123>Taede: map size is irrelevant to memory usage compared to graphics
15:12<frosch123>and i think we do not support more than 2GB of sprite cache
15:12<frosch123>its all signed integeres or so :p
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16:15<@Alberth>V453000: are you supposed to have 2 Educated Horses after each other? (nuts 0.6.2) there is a hole between them in -- direction
16:16<Taede>i believe that is intentional, so that each engine is either half or full tile
16:17<Taede>so that you are never stuck with fractional trains (eg, 2.7 length)
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16:21<@Alberth>ah, makes sense, although I don't mind "weird" lengths
16:22<Taede>its to do with cornering speed as well
16:23<Taede>afaik a train with lots of short wagons, will corner a lot slower than an equal lenght train of longer wagons
16:24<@Alberth>higher train mathematics :)
16:25<Taede>it annoyed V
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16:25<@Alberth>sounds like something he may get annoyed with :)
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16:31<Eddi|zuHause>i thought it went faster because there are more wagons between the bends
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17:09<DanMacK>Hey all
17:09<DanMacK>@seen andythenorth
17:09<@DorpsGek>DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 7 hours, 45 minutes, and 22 seconds ago: <andythenorth> somebody broke the error handling in python somehow
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17:24<Tirili>At which year does building planes start in openttd?
17:27<Pikka>unless you're using a newgrf which changes that
17:27<@planetmaker>1945 in toyland
17:27<@planetmaker>or newgrfs, yes
17:33<Tirili>Thank you :)
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18:48<slee>does anyone know off the top of thier head when the first update for egrvts start? i started in year 1800...wondering if i started waaaay to early
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18:50<slee>or is there a url that lists what years vehicles update? vanilla and egrvts
18:52<+glx>1800 is indeed early
18:53<slee>ok, what is a good year to start?
18:58<slee>nm, i see the first steam train starts in 1925, that'll work
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19:52<Tirili>Which one is the strongest ai in openttd?
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20:19<slee>bah...starting a map is the hardest part of the game, as a noob, i have no foresight on track layouts
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20:23<Xaroth|Work>matter of experience tbh
20:24<Tirili>How can I start a game against an ai?
20:24<slee>adv.settings > competitors > computer players?
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20:31<Tirili>I didn't know that I have to run start_ai.
20:31<Tirili>Wondering though which ai is chosen after the 6 competitors that I did setup.
20:31<Tirili>I have about 10 ais in my game now.
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---Logclosed Sun Feb 02 00:01:00 2014