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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-02-02

---Logopened Sun Feb 02 00:01:00 2014
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00:21<Elyon>supermop: hi
00:22<supermop>how's it going
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01:26<Elyon>supermop: tired
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03:55<Elyon>is there a handy way for specifying signed negative bytes/words/dwords in NFO?
04:12<Elyon>okay! Conversion time it is :) thanks, and good morning!
04:12<@planetmaker>indeed, good morning :)
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04:16<Elyon>I read somewhere that the number of cargoes waiting on a platform is limited to something which I think was 12, but I cannot find that info. Is this true?
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04:29<@planetmaker>moin moin
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05:26<Elyon>oh no, I have hit a newgrf limitation! There's only a nibble of random data per station tile, but I need a byte! ... better rework my requirements
05:33<@planetmaker>more than 16 variations per tile? :D
05:36<Elyon>planetmaker: ideally 192 so far
05:36<Elyon>but I could probably find a use for the remaining 64
05:37<Elyon>I guess I will have to make do with the 4 bits
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06:22*LordAro mornings
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06:52<supermop>hi all
06:52<Elyon>hi supermop
06:52<supermop>hi again
06:53<supermop>its a new timezone for me
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07:06<andythenorth>peter1138: no no, Metal is not good enough
07:06<andythenorth>you must be able to distinguish Aluminium and Steel, it's vitally important
07:07<andythenorth>as they travel to same destinations, using same vehicles, for roughly same payment rates
07:07<andythenorth>we must rewrite the game for this now!
07:07<andythenorth>also where is my API call to get the cargo name?
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07:46<Pikka>speaking of
07:47<Pikka>andythenorth, what FIRS cargos "need" custom load sprites? Scrap is still a thing, right?
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07:48<@planetmaker>Pikka, farm supplies. engineering supplies make nice cargo
07:48<@planetmaker>maybe sugar cane / beets
07:48<Pikka>is reasonably up to date re FIRS?
07:48<Pikka>hmm, sugar cane
07:49<@planetmaker>yes, should be
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08:41<qwebirc26329>Hello i need help
08:41<Elyon>qwebirc26329: yes?
08:42<Elyon>you're going to have to be a bit more specific :)
08:42<qwebirc26329>How to run maps bigger than 2048?
08:42<Elyon>qwebirc26329: there's a patch for that
08:42<qwebirc26329>so no build existing at the moment?
08:42<Elyon>although currently it isn't updated, so you'd have to fix the source code and compile it yourself
08:42<Elyon>there is a patchpack that among other things has bigger-maps
08:43<qwebirc26329>i mean a standalone version like the nightbuild already patched doesn't exist?
08:43<@planetmaker>qwebirc26329, did you ever manage to actually fill a 2048^2 map?
08:44<qwebirc26329>yes :D
08:44<@planetmaker>service all towns and industries with >50% station rating and
08:44<@planetmaker>50% cargo transported
08:44<qwebirc26329>:| well i didn't aim for those target
08:44<qwebirc26329>i just wanted to have very extended towns
08:45<@planetmaker>so, how big was your biggest town?
08:45<qwebirc26329>85000 people
08:46<@planetmaker>no, add two 00 and we can speak of a record
08:47<qwebirc26329>:D i was sure about something like that
08:47<@planetmaker>it's not impossible to get towns with 1 million+ inhabitants
08:47<@planetmaker>on a 1024^2 (?) map I've seen 6.5 million inhabitants, but in 4(?) towns
08:47<qwebirc26329>well i just wanted to have big maps 'cause my noob friends playing with me just like wide spaces
08:48<qwebirc26329>we kill the host and restart very often
08:48<@Alberth>it doesn't add anything except laying endless long straight tracks
08:49<qwebirc26329>i wanted to increase town number and yes just make endless tracks :D
08:49<qwebirc26329>so non way any of you just have a 1.3.3 version with the exe file just patched?
08:49<@planetmaker>it wouldn't be 1.3.3
08:49<@Alberth>junctions and stations are interesting to make, imho, not just straight tracks :)
08:50<@planetmaker>if you patch, patch trunk
08:50<qwebirc26329>or 1.4.0 beta 3
08:50<@planetmaker>and mind, that you then probably never will be able to upgrade your openttd to play with a newer version when playing that map
08:50<@Alberth>a release number implies a set of properties, like max map size. If you change that, it is not a release anymore
08:51<qwebirc26329>yeah i know
08:51<@Alberth>so don't call a patched build the same as a release
08:51<qwebirc26329>but we can probably play with that for long time
08:51<@planetmaker>and don't even start patching releases. There's absolutely no point in doing so
08:51<frosch123>qwebirc26329: check /r/openttd, they seem to have similar interests
08:51<@Alberth>it also implies there is no point in basing it on a release, you can just as well start with a random trunk version
08:52<qwebirc26329>yeah of course i know that
08:52<qwebirc26329>but i guess this limit is just a number somewhere in the code
08:52<qwebirc26329>to be changed right?
08:52<@Alberth>so what's this "have a 1.3.3 version" stuff then about?
08:53<@planetmaker>it's also a limit somewhere in memory ;)
08:53<@planetmaker>and especially it's a limit in CPU speed
08:53<qwebirc26329>i got a 32gb server i bet is enought
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08:54<@planetmaker>you should not worry about the server. About the clients
08:54<frosch123>it's just a number for up to 8kx8k
08:54<qwebirc26329>and xeon 8 core 3.0ghz
08:54<@planetmaker>*every* client has to run the simulation. Thus your server will run. And no-one play
08:54<frosch123>beyond 8kx8k noone will code it for the effort
08:54<@Alberth>actually, the server should be the slowest machine :)
08:55<@planetmaker>just broadband internet :)
08:55<frosch123>cpu speed is irrelevant since people will quite after their second train, because its boring :p
08:55<qwebirc26329>we also have strong gaming pcs
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08:56<qwebirc26329>and we play local network
08:56<qwebirc26329>and then if we face performance problem we will accept our limit
08:56<qwebirc26329>but until i try i cannot understand exactly
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08:56-!-ChanServ changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.4.0-beta3, 1.3.3 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices
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08:58<@planetmaker>qwebirc26329, try to host and play built-up game and see...
08:58<@planetmaker>yes, it's only 256^2
08:58<@planetmaker>but 2.66k trains
08:59<@planetmaker> <-- or 512^2 with everything houses
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09:00<@planetmaker>and like frosch said, the reddit people might have an appropriate patch pack and binaries at hand, so maybe that's for you to use, too
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09:01<Enky>hi all
09:01<Enky>sorry guys, but i'm getting mad on how to generate a 4096x4096 map, someone could help me please?
09:01<Enky>apparently the game is limited to 2048x2048 only
09:02<@planetmaker>quite so
09:02<@planetmaker>please read back the last 15 minutes, Enky ^
09:02<Enky>ah ok
09:02<qwebirc26329>another poor guy with my same desire
09:03<qwebirc26329>but to try those maps i need to have exactly that build
09:04<@planetmaker>of course you don't
09:04<@planetmaker>you only need that, *if* you play with patched versions
09:04<Enky>sorry but in the log i don't find the answer to my initial question, on how to do larger map then 2048x2048
09:04<@planetmaker>Enky, patch sources to allow it, compile. Enjoy
09:05<@Alberth>Enky: find a patch for it, build a customized version, make a bigger map
09:05<Enky>i'm not able to compile too hard to me, i'm very dumb sorry
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09:05<Enky>something easy for a newbie?
09:05<Enky>not yet possible?
09:05<@Alberth>find a patchpack that has it
09:05<Enky>patchpack? what is it?
09:06<@Alberth>a customized version containing lots of patches, for which a binary was made
09:06<@Alberth>not compatible with anything but itself
09:06<Enky>i can't believe that noone of you ever compiled a version where it's possible to generate a larger map , it seems incredible to me.
09:07<Enky>come on guys, it's silly
09:07<@Alberth>having anything larger than 1024^2 is silly, imho
09:07<Enky>in the next version just add larger map, isn't so complicated
09:07<Xaroth|Work>yet you are unable to compile it yourself, so obviously it's not -that- easy ;)
09:07<Enky>i don't care of your opinion, just do it and the users will decide if to use a 64x64 map or 8192x8192
09:08<@Alberth>it's always easy to tell others to do what you want
09:08<Xaroth|Work>and I'm pretty sure that if bigger maps were 'easy', people would have submitted patches for trunk already
09:08<LordAro>Enky: of course course, i'll just change "static const MAP_SIZE = 8192"
09:08<LordAro>that should *obviously* work
09:08<@planetmaker>Xaroth, it's easy. But... stupid :)
09:09<Enky>i'm stupid then:)
09:09<Enky>there are maps where 4kx4k is useful, like europe
09:09<@planetmaker>the larger the map, the less you can build
09:09<@planetmaker>you computer won't be able to handle the cpu requirements
09:10<@Alberth>more tiles to update, costs extra cpu power -> less trains
09:10<Enky>i've 5ghz cpu
09:10<Enky>and 32gb of ram
09:10<Enky>i doubt it
09:10<Xaroth|Work>good, you can play it single-player then
09:10*LordAro spits coffee over keyboard
09:10<@planetmaker>oh Lord, don't! We need you and your computer in working condition ;)
09:10<qwebirc26329>did you overclock?
09:11<Pikka>*fewer trains, Alberth
09:11<@Alberth>what's "less" than?
09:11<@planetmaker>Pikka, wrong. I usually drink 10 litres of trains for breakfast :P
09:11<@planetmaker>uncountable, Alberth
09:11<@Alberth>ah, ok, I'll try to remember :)
09:12<Xaroth|Work>Enky: problem is, people will need to test if things work before it gets in trunk; so unless you're willing to donate said 5ghz cpu and 32gb of ram to every core dev... it's highly unlikely to get in trunk
09:12<Xaroth|Work>but if you do, by all means, let me send you my address
09:12<Pikka>also, players who don't have those specs will complain when they try to play 8192x maps and it doesn't work. :)
09:12<@Alberth>We can make you dev for a day :)
09:13<Enky>why don't you just change the constant and allow the users to experiment it by themselves?
09:13<Xaroth|Work>Alberth: just one day?
09:13<qwebirc26329>Well about this i don't fully agree
09:13<Enky>put 8192, compile, and goodbye:)
09:13<Xaroth|Work>Enky: it's open source!
09:13<qwebirc26329>The game shoud allow bigger mpas
09:13<Xaroth|Work>experiment away!
09:13<Xaroth|Work>it's just not -supported-, because it's not properly testable
09:13<qwebirc26329>and the user will be the one to decide based on his pc strenght
09:14<Enky>yes i agree with you qwebitc26329, it's so easy to udnerstand
09:14<Xaroth|Work>qwebirc26329: and after 2 hours there will be 500000000 bug reports asking why it doesn't work
09:14<LordAro>qwebirc26329: maybe you will, but many others can't
09:14<@Alberth>Xaroth|Work: you need another day to fix those bugs? :)
09:15<Enky>ok, i give up:)
09:15<Enky>bye all
09:15<Xaroth|Work>Alberth: heh, I had expected if somebody was to 'volunteer' using his uber pc for finding bugs in openttd, that most devs would jump for joy to finally create those insane situations
09:15<Xaroth|Work>Enky: you call it 'easy', but I really doubt you grasp the full extent of things :P
09:15<@planetmaker>Enky, on that machine it's also very fast to compile openttd. so not a big issue
09:16<@Alberth>Xaroth|Work: hmm, I am not jumping that much :p
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09:16<@planetmaker>but patch packs do ship with that patch, so look for one of those
09:16<qwebirc26329>well just a code that check map size and give warning about map size can cause a throuble
09:16<qwebirc26329>or better
09:16<@planetmaker>even one was mentioned to look for specifically
09:16<@Alberth>qwebirc26329: oh yeah, that is known not to work
09:16<qwebirc26329>just a var that is changeable only manually in the conf files
09:16<Xaroth|Work>qwebirc26329: since when do people read warnings?
09:16<qwebirc26329>so only people who likes to hack do that and they don't complain
09:16<Xaroth|Work>that's as sane as expecting people to read a manual
09:17<qwebirc26329>so no bug report
09:17<qwebirc26329>and 10000000x10000000 maps
09:17<Pikka>qwebirc26329: yes, that's how it is already
09:17<@Alberth>qwebirc26329: people who like to hack can also build a custom version
09:17<@Alberth>so problem already handled
09:17<Elyon>10000000x10000000 maps won't be around in the foreseeable future
09:18<qwebirc26329>ok let's say an easy hack :D
09:18<Elyon>'build a custom version' should be an easy 'hack' :p
09:18<Xaroth|Work>qwebirc26329: I see around 10-odd people asking questions that can easily be read in the manual, on a monthly basis here
09:18<qwebirc26329>that can be easily changed by an insane user like me and others
09:18<Xaroth|Work>they -will- make bugreports :P
09:18<@planetmaker>Elyon, it is an easy hack...
09:18<@planetmaker>heck, openttd taught me how to do that :P
09:18<@planetmaker>properly at least
09:19*Elyon is confused
09:19<qwebirc26329>well this looks perfect to me
09:19<Elyon>8192x8192 maps is an easy hack?
09:19<qwebirc26329>just a manual setting in cfg file
09:19<qwebirc26329>so standard user doesn't annoy that
09:19<qwebirc26329>and i can :D
09:20<Xaroth|Work>if you can't compile openttd yourself, you're also part of the 'standard user' group, qwebirc26329
09:20<@planetmaker>you can compile or grab patch pack
09:20<@planetmaker>both is not hard.
09:20<qwebirc26329>and i'll not bugreport you if my pc blow up
09:20<Elyon>you won't but who will?
09:20<@planetmaker>that's what she said
09:20<Xaroth|Work>don't expect other people to do things for you because you are lazy
09:20<qwebirc26329>my solution is for lazy hackers like me
09:21<Elyon>... isn't this already a non-issue?
09:21<Xaroth|Work>as i said
09:21<Xaroth|Work>don't expect other people to do things for you because you are lazy
09:21<Elyon>those that need bigger maps can already compile a patched version to get it
09:21<Elyon>those that don't just play nightlies/whatever/releases
09:21<qwebirc26329>'cause you already know the code and takes 0 seconds
09:21<qwebirc26329>for us we need to spend 1 hour to do that
09:21<Xaroth|Work>qwebirc26329: basically, what you're saying is: "Do this for me because I cba to do it myself"
09:22<Elyon>qwebirc26329: you hardly need to know the code to compile it ;)
09:22<qwebirc26329>and i don't think adding a bool value in a cfg file would be such a complicated issue
09:22<qwebirc26329>like overridemapsize = true
09:22<Elyon>heck, I don't know the first thing about the code and I managed to merge cargodist and infrastructure sharing back in the day
09:22<Elyon>qwebirc26329: you can go ahead and add that bool in the cfg file right now, actually!
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09:22<Xaroth|Work>now, if you were to say "Do this for me, because I'm too lazy to do it, but I'll buy every dev a crate of <insert beverage here>" , people might actually be a bit more receptive of the idea :P
09:23<Elyon>take off every 'dev'
09:23<@planetmaker>oh, I see someone keen on that :P
09:24<Xaroth|Work>not I, but I'm sure it'll help for the preparations for the next meetup :)
09:24<Elyon>how many devs are there?
09:24<@planetmaker>surely would
09:24<Elyon>also how big are these "crates"?
09:24<Xaroth|Work>Elyon: both are not relevant tbh
09:25<frosch123>i have a different suggestion!
09:25<Xaroth|Work>the concept is providing incentive for people to do something that you want :)
09:25<frosch123>make 1kx1k the new maximum
09:25<Elyon>frosch123: :D :D
09:25<frosch123>allow selection 2kx2k, but disable the start button, but instead display some insults!
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09:26<Pikka>what did
09:26<frosch123>pakka pekka pikka pokka pukka
09:26<LordAro>qwebirc26329: patch is here:
09:26<@planetmaker>frosch123, nah. Display some texts from Nietsche and ask comprehension questions. Only upon answering correctly allow to start
09:26<LordAro>go, learn
09:26<Elyon>pakka pikka pukka pekka pokka would be closer :D
09:27<Pikka>< frosch123> make 1kx1k the new maximum <- 128x128
09:28<frosch123>256x256 is fine for singleplayer, given 15 companies you need 1024x1024
09:28<LordAro>qwebirc26329: alternatively, show us a "maxed out" 2048x2048 map, and people might start considering bigger maps more seriously
09:28<Xaroth|Work>planetmaker: Nietsche? schrodinger! :P
09:29<Xaroth|Work>"There may or may ont be a 1kx1k map size"
09:29<qwebirc26329>Anyway you know what i mean when i say that should not need for me to put all this effort on this since you have the code and compiler in front of you at this moment
09:29<Elyon>I like how questions about 8kx8k maps have brought the 1kx1k size in question
09:30<frosch123>Elyon: the point is that 1kx1k is a meaningful maxsize
09:30<qwebirc26329>But i need to read stuff when you can just change a line and press a button
09:30<Elyon>qwebirc26329: teach a person to fish, etc.
09:30<frosch123>2kx2k is only there to give those an option who cannot get their mouth full enough
09:30<frosch123>but instead they ask for 128kx128k now knowing how stupid that is
09:30<LordAro>qwebirc26329: do you honestly think it is as simple as changing a single line?
09:31<frosch123>and instead they claim "hey it is so easy to do it" instead of believing that people have tried it and considered unusable and stupid to begin with
09:31<qwebirc26329>yeah problem is that i'm 100% sure the game is fine to me just like this but without that limitation
09:31<qwebirc26329>i thought so
09:31<Elyon>would someone seriously ask for 128k^2?
09:31<frosch123>Elyon: people always ask for more
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09:31<Elyon>doesn't 8k^2 already use like 1.3 GB?
09:31<MikeFord>hi all guys
09:31<frosch123>if 2kx2k is the max, they ask for bigger
09:32<frosch123>if 32 cargos is the max, they ask for more
09:32<MikeFord>is it possible to talk with the main developer of the game?
09:32*Alberth likes the reduction idea
09:32<Elyon>frosch123: well, fair point
09:32<Elyon>I asked for 128 bits
09:32<LordAro>MikeFord: most of them are here, go ahead
09:32<@Alberth>MikeFord: there are many of those
09:32<MikeFord>i would like to know if it possible to go far beyond the limitsize of 2048x2048 tiles
09:32<frosch123>people who have *actually played* with these limits in a reasonable way, figure out that you should stay below those limits for an interesting game
09:32<LordAro>ok, this is silly now
09:32<Elyon>okay is this trolling?
09:33<LordAro>MikeFord: It's very interesting how you have the same IP as Enky
09:33<MikeFord>i just installed the game and i'd like to create a big map just for fun
09:33<frosch123>@kban mikeford
09:33-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!~oftc-webi@] by DorpsGek
09:33-!-MikeFord was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [frosch123]
09:33<LordAro>banning is perhaps a bit harsh?
09:34<LordAro>lol, silly people
09:34<Xaroth|Work>there's no such thing as being too harsh :)
09:35<@planetmaker>LordAro, no, same IP
09:35<frosch123>i have no idea whether its the real ip, maybe it is the oftc ip
09:35<frosch123>but it does not matter, it's the same source of trolls
09:35<Wolf01>what about a 2048x2048 chocolate bar?
09:36<@planetmaker>well, we shouldn't ban oftc's official webchat
09:36<frosch123>won't hurt for some hours :)
09:36<@planetmaker>:) for a few hours not
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09:36<Taede>you only banned the combo of his ip using the webchat
09:36<LordAro>nope, it's his IP
09:36<Taede>he can still join with a proper client
09:37<Xaroth|Work>doesn't matter, we know his IP now ;)
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09:37<LordAro>Xaroth|Work: you got a Botnet handy? :p
09:38<Xaroth|Work>LordAro: I may or may not have any number of botnets to my disposal, how so?
09:38<frosch123>lordaro wants to attack
09:39<qwebirc26329>if i have to really honest with you i wanted to have no limits because i wanna make 4096x64 map
09:39<frosch123>well, try the reddit build or check the forums
09:39<frosch123>i am sure you will find someone with simialr interests
09:39<frosch123>just not here
09:39<LordAro>qwebirc26329: the relevant patch is linked above. none of us knew how to compile before we actually did
09:40<fonsinchen>Well, to be fair, it is actually only that one number in map_type.h:62, right? Put 13 instead of 11 and you get 8192 as max dimension.
09:40<frosch123>technically i believe 4096 is actually the maximum
09:40<frosch123>i believe bulding an airport at the border of 8k will get you into trouble
09:41<LordAro>fonsinchen: judging by Bilbo's patch, i think certain integers overflow
09:41<frosch123>LordAro: yes, the world coordinates are int32
09:41<frosch123>and you have 16 subcoordinates on a tile
09:42<frosch123>so a aircraft which tries to land at 8k from south will reappear on the other side of the map, far in the north
09:42<frosch123>or it just crashes :p
09:42<fonsinchen> doesn't actually change anything substantial, except for that one number. But probably it's just buggy then.
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09:45<fonsinchen>And I like the idea of having 4096 as config file only option. 4096x64 might actually be an interesting game.
09:45<frosch123>more interesting than 2kx64 ?
09:46<fonsinchen>For those people who like long stretches of straight rail, yes.
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09:48<@Alberth>a train taking a decade to get to the other end of the map? :)
09:49<fonsinchen>Sure, why not.
09:49<Wolf01>that's another point to have daylength
09:49<@planetmaker>time is relative ;)
09:49<frosch123>well, imo put the more rare game variants into patches and patchpacks
09:50*LordAro ponders 2d pattern matching algorithms...
09:50<@planetmaker>well, limiting the amount of tiles rather than length makes sense
09:50<@planetmaker>LordAro, convol is your friend
09:50<@planetmaker>but depends on how fast you need it :)
09:50<frosch123>well, the maximum on length is apparently 4k. fine by me to raise it from 2k to 4k
09:50<frosch123>but i doubt it will help anyone
09:50<@planetmaker>well. convolve the image with the pattern you search and look for the maximum in the result of the convolution
09:51<frosch123>2kx64 to 4kx64 is no improvement at all
09:51<@planetmaker>requiring a certain maximum, of course
09:51<frosch123>the same people will keep on asking for 128kx64
09:51<LordAro>planetmaker: oh, it's not image recognition, just shape recognition, from points
09:51<@planetmaker>LordAro, that's the same thing, technically
09:51<LordAro>kinda, yeah
09:52<Wolf01>I want L and T shaped maps
09:52<LordAro>planetmaker: also, has to be in python :L
09:52<@planetmaker>I'm sure python has pre-made algorithms for convolution
09:53<@planetmaker>search for the fastest fourier transform of the west ;) It's implemented in C afaik, but maybe a python version exists
09:53<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26289 /trunk/src (tilearea.cpp tilearea_type.h) (2014-02-02 14:53:26 UTC)
09:53<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Make tile areas and iterators more consistent to each other.
09:53<LordAro>planetmaker: i'll take a look
09:53<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26290 /trunk/src (landscape.cpp terraform_cmd.cpp) (2014-02-02 14:53:52 UTC)
09:53<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Use nicer orthogonal tile iterator constructor and simplify calculation of explosion points when clearing.
09:54<LordAro>planetmaker: this is what i'm trying to do, btw
09:54<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26291 trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp (2014-02-02 14:54:13 UTC)
09:54<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5866, FS#5888]: Correctly identify opposite ends of bridges and tunnels when converting rails (adf88)
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09:57<LordAro>planetmaker: and, not that i fully understand what convolution is, but i don't think it's quite what i'm looking for here
09:59<@planetmaker>possibly not
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10:01<LordAro>ha, looking through the logs to see when i first came on the channel:
10:01<LordAro>petert really did get rather annoyed with me, didn't he? :)
10:03<frosch123>haha, still one of my favorite forums posts
10:03<LordAro>oh, to be young :3
10:03<LordAro>and more concerned about the Company name of my AI, rather than the functionality :D
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10:05<LordAro>oh man, i just read the logs of that conversation:
10:05<LordAro>now i can't stop laughing :D
10:06<LordAro>oh, and i won in the junction thing, too :D
10:19<fonsinchen>simple and effective in increasing max map size to 4096, but only for people who know at least a bit what they're doing.
10:30<Xaroth|Work>LordAro: petert gets annoyed with anybody, so that's not really a feat of effort :P
10:30<Japa_>fonsinchen, 64x4096 map.
10:30<Japa_>best map
10:30<LordAro>Xaroth|Work: :D
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10:52<andythenorth>Pikka: docs for FIRSes
10:52<andythenorth>oh there's even one for coderers
10:53<Pikka>fancy :)
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11:00<andythenorth>if I had oodles of spare time I could put the cargo icons in
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11:11<andythenorth>Alberth: example of my code crashing python error handling
11:12<andythenorth>there's no way to bin those processes once started, afaict
11:12<andythenorth>there's probably a timeout handler in multiprocessing somewhere, but I didn't find a robust way to use it yet
11:13<foobar1337>Hi, I have the feeling that development has slowed down after 1.0. Mostly bugfixes and cosmetics (GUI improvments) since then. Will any big features be introduced in the near future (new industries, new trains, more content generally)? Or is this fully and exclusivley up to NewGRF's?
11:14<@planetmaker>hi, new trains, industries,... are up to NewGRFs
11:14<@planetmaker>there are a lot of NewGRFs, conveniently available from ingame content download
11:14<@Alberth>andythenorth: pickle is python version dependent, perhaps you're mixing python versions?
11:14<andythenorth>Alberth: interesting possibility
11:15<Pikka>there were never any new trains or industries added to OpenTTD before 1.0, either...
11:15<andythenorth>GUI improvements aren't cosmetic :)
11:15<@Alberth>pickle is pretty much useless as portable format :)
11:15<foobar1337>What is the general roadmap for the OpenTTD core then? Will it only be "kept stable" in the future? What can we expect from it?
11:15<andythenorth>nobody knows
11:15<andythenorth>nobody has publicly said 'no new features'
11:15<@Alberth>including all devs
11:15<@planetmaker>you can expect the same as before: features will get added as they become available :)
11:16<andythenorth>I would rather not :P
11:16*andythenorth has become all conservative
11:16<Pikka>andythenorth, where's my roadtypes?
11:16<andythenorth>don't open that can
11:16<andythenorth>worms in it
11:16<Pikka>and newairports, that's an even worse one
11:17<andythenorth>new stations would be valid
11:17<andythenorth>because we're doing it properly, I've been delivering passengers to fishing grounds since 2009
11:17<andythenorth>that's....5 years
11:17<andythenorth>'he sleeps with the fishes'
11:17<foobar1337>for example, a story/campaign mode would be nice. Would something like that be also NewGRF-exclusive?
11:18<andythenorth>after 5 years of waiting for the proper solution, you might wonder if the wrong solution is good enough
11:18<@Alberth>foobar1337: that already exists
11:18<@planetmaker>as game script
11:18<@Alberth> is this useful?
11:18<@planetmaker>definitely, Alberth
11:19<andythenorth>Alberth: I think multiprocessing uses pickle to pass objects between processes, but not sure :)
11:19<@Alberth>sounds like a likely option
11:19<foobar1337>Alberth: So, there are campaigns? In a way like Rollercoaster Tycoon has? Where you have different scenarios that are "opened" one-by-one by mastering a specific goal in the previous map?
11:19<@planetmaker>Alberth, though the string is not clear to me. What's "advanced settings" there?
11:20<andythenorth>foobar1337: not campaigns like that no :)
11:20<@Alberth>but that's a matter of writing a nice game script
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11:21<@planetmaker>foobar1337, but you might, for instance, try a map with the silicon valley game script
11:21<@Alberth>planetmaker: hmm, it's supposed to explain to use a different restriction mode in the top drop down
11:21<@planetmaker>or one of the citybuilder ones
11:21<@planetmaker>Alberth, yes. But "advanced settings" has no equivalent further up on that window
11:21<@Alberth>doesn't nocargoal have a story page?
11:22<@Alberth>planetmaker: indeed :(
11:22<@Alberth>no sane way to refer to the dropdown
11:23<@planetmaker>Alberth, add a string above the dropdowns reading "Filter selections:"
11:23<@planetmaker>and then refer to 'filter selections"?
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11:23<@Alberth>I was pondering to make 2 labels at the left
11:23<@Alberth>which is quite like your idea
11:24<@planetmaker>yeah. Or just replacing the "Show" by "Filter\nselection:"
11:24<@planetmaker>probably better to place that left of them
11:25<@Alberth>there is already a "Filter" in the editbox label
11:25<@Alberth>needs a little thinking
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11:30<Pikka>nocargoal uses storybook, I think... I tried it just the other day
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11:44<frosch123>Alberth: "switch filter to 'Advanced Settings' to show ..."
11:44<frosch123>i.e. mention the 'filter', else people will associate it to the window title
11:45<@Alberth>I want to refer to the top drop down
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11:46<frosch123>yes, but "advancted settings" is ambiguous
11:47<@Alberth>I agree it needs more careful wording
11:48<frosch123>i guess replacing the "Show" with "Filter" is not that bad
11:49<frosch123>or "Category", then you can refer to the categories in the other message
11:50<@planetmaker>filter category is nice
11:53<@Alberth>good idea
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12:11<@Alberth>hmm, category also needs a warning message
12:13*andythenorth wonders if 32bpp is the answer for ships
12:13<andythenorth>Pikka: want to render ~30 ships o_O
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12:14<Pikka>I probably want to render about 6 ships, andythenorth :)
12:14<Pikka>but when I get to ships, sharing resources, definitely. :P
12:15<@planetmaker>you two guys should make one set :)
12:15<@planetmaker>maybe a base set ;)
12:16<@Alberth>reload added a label for the category
12:16<@Alberth>planetmaker: we need more climates :p
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12:16<andythenorth>I would be happy with one good climate
12:16<frosch123>i thought category would apply to the upper one :o
12:16<frosch123>or both
12:17<@Alberth>it applies to both, but then it defeats its purpose :p
12:17<Pikka>alpine :]
12:18<Pikka>also, desert and snow on one map
12:18<Pikka>and different shades of grass and water
12:18<Xaroth|Work>50 shades of grass and water?
12:19<@planetmaker>sounds juicy :D
12:19<frosch123>Alberth: i would put "Category" to the upper one, and "Type" to the lower one
12:19<frosch123>"Type" is also how it is called in the description panel at the bottom
12:20<@Alberth>the problem is currently that the type can also block search results, and you don't get a message about that
12:20<frosch123>oh... why did you write "Advanced settings" btw? shouldn't it say "Expert settings / all settings"?
12:20<@Alberth>I don't write that, it gets copied from the drop-down depending on the search result
12:21<frosch123>so it should say "select 'all settings' in both the category and type filter to see all search results" ?
12:21<@Alberth>nice solution :)
12:21<frosch123>oh, it did not guess it would be dynamic
12:22<Xaroth|Work>and when adding stuff, maybe some form of auth system :P
12:22<@planetmaker>that's tb's domain, Xaroth ;)
12:22<@Alberth>maybe it shouldn't be dynamic :)
12:22<@planetmaker>the dynamic aspect wasn't clear to me, neither :)
12:23<Xaroth|Work>planetmaker: wasn't talking about a CAS, more.. simple :)
12:23<@planetmaker>like company passwords? :P
12:23<@Alberth>k, time for some food first
12:24<@planetmaker>bon appetit, Alberth
12:24<Xaroth|Work>planetmaker: bit more complex than that :P
12:24<@planetmaker>bah, you can't really decide, eh, Xaroth ? :P
12:24<Xaroth|Work>no, you just give me two extremes
12:24<Xaroth|Work>and I'm aiming at the middle road
12:25<@planetmaker>middle road, average class, 1 shade of grey ;)
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12:48<Pikka>such shipping, so contained. wow.
12:50<andythenorth>we should just make one cargo
12:50<Pikka>it's realistic
12:50<andythenorth>1 ship, 1 truck, 1 train
12:50<andythenorth>1 elvis
12:50<andythenorth>but you could have an API call to get the cargo 'name'
12:51<andythenorth>which would be a random string :P
12:51<andythenorth>we'd patch cargodist to assign 'names' when assigning routes
12:51<andythenorth>industries would have a list of produced and accepted 'names', but only a single production ratio
12:51<andythenorth>primary production would be random
12:52<andythenorth>transfers and routing are much simplified
12:52<andythenorth>oh I guess there would have to be pax :(
12:52<Pikka>are you also procedurally generating the industry graphics?
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12:53<andythenorth>not yet but ummm
12:53<andythenorth>zephyris did that for houses
12:54<andythenorth>evil would be randomising generated graphics at compile time
12:55<Pikka>we should procedurally generate everything, so every time the player starts a new game they'll have no idea what's what.
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12:58<andythenorth>I find that quite appealing
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12:58<andythenorth>it's mostly possible :P
12:58<Pikka>planetmaker: you asked earlier why andy and I don't just make one grf... :P
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13:00<Mrkva>hello, I've ran into an issue with openttd - - that train basically just turns around over and over again, never goes to the depot
13:00<Pikka>is it a non-electrified depot?
13:01*Mrkva headdesk
13:01<Mrkva>okay, now I'm officially idiot
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13:01<Pikka>no worries :)
13:02<Mrkva>I've thought I ran into some strange PBS issue
13:02<frosch123>without idiots this channel would be empty
13:02<frosch123>except for dorpsgek maybe
13:02<@planetmaker>electric vs. non-electric is a very common oversight, Mrkva :)
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13:31<andythenorth>Pikka: I think we'd fall out :P
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26292 /trunk/src/lang (3 files in 2 dirs) (2014-02-02 18:45:33 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>czech - 6 changes by Eskymak
13:45<@DorpsGek>estonian - 1 changes by planetmaker
13:45<@DorpsGek>frisian - 152 changes by Geoloep
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16:34<slee>hello, when you 'fund new industry'...lets say you fund a new power plant, does it also give you new coal mines?
16:35<Taede>you need to fund those separately
16:37<slee>where do you fund for those? i only see places you take products to(powerplant, steel mill, etc)
16:38<Taede>you may need to check settings
16:38<+glx>somewhere in advanced settings
16:38<slee>k, thanks
16:38<Taede>funding for primary industries can be turned off
16:39<Taede>economy -> industries -> manual primary industries...
16:39<slee>found it, thanks again
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16:48<slee>holy cow, $9M to fund a forest
16:52<slee>well, i saved my game then opened a new map to test it
16:53<slee>oh, something else...i've read the futher you ship your goods, the more you make, but i also read if you send it too far, you lose there a chart that lets you know how far is too far?
16:58<slee>i try to google/wiki.openttd for answers, but being a noob i'm not fimiliar with the correct terminology making it hard for me to find my answers
16:59<juzza1>understandable, it's ok to ask (almost) anything here :)
17:03<juzza1>here is also some info
17:04<slee>yes, already found it from first link
17:18<Kjetil>ah. good old kilolitres
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18:02<slee>hmmm..'slope steepness for trains'...changing it from 0% to 10% seems to have no difference, train appears to still climb hill at same there another setting that could be interfering?
18:05<slee>nm, found my answer
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18:10<Wolf01>'night all
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18:25<slee>omg, that is the 3rd time i've forgot to stop trains before altering a signal....BOOM
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18:36<Eddi|zuHause>use the undo knob
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19:51-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx_] by ChanServ
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19:52<LordAro>did freenode just die for everyone else?
19:53<slee>LordAro, appears nickserv is dead on freenode
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19:57<+glx>no nickserv is ok
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19:58<slee>glx, fails to ident me
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19:59<+glx>it worked for me 8 min ago
20:00<slee>Connected. Now logging in......hangs for me right there
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20:01<slee>prolly all the sport channels are jam packed for the game right now
20:03<LordAro>they're a thing?
20:03<Supercheese>the Stupor Bowl
20:03<LordAro>superb owl
20:04<LordAro>seriously though, why is the internet dying tonight?
20:04<Supercheese>(You Obviously Like Owls)
20:05<LordAro>freenode is still broken for me :/
20:05<+glx>for me too
20:05<+glx>I'm using the webchat for now
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20:12<+glx>LordAro: seems ok now
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20:13<LordAro>that's working?
20:13<LordAro>according to webchat, my bouncer has reconnected
20:13<LordAro>but, my client doesn't seem to be picking this up
20:14<+glx>I've been ejected from webchat after my client regain
20:18<LordAro>basically, freenode has completely fallen over, i think
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20:31<slee>of the 4-way junctions listed on wiki, which is the most efficient?
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20:35<slee>this is the one i'm currently using, but it isn't very efficient for heavy traffic:
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20:37<Elyon>is this the apocalypse?
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20:43<LordAro>Elyon: pretty much
20:44*LordAro gives up on the internet
20:44<LordAro>g'night all
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21:12<slee>bah, if you make trains 'realistic' and change slope speed, trains enter stations slower, if you set trains to original, they enter stations fast, but climb slopes there another setting i'm missing?
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21:38<slee> this worth using?
21:42<Elyon>are you playing TTD?
21:46<Elyon>TTDPatch is for TTD, and outdated
21:46<slee>oh, i was reading an article in openttd about more control over train speed/dynamics and mentioned using the ttdpatch *shrug
21:46<Elyon>well, ttdpatch is not for openttd :)
21:47<slee>is there something for openttd for more control of train dynamics?
21:47<Elyon>newgrf train sets
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---Logclosed Mon Feb 03 00:00:59 2014