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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-02-08

---Logopened Sat Feb 08 00:00:14 2014
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02:21<Pikka>AIs can't change their company colours? D:
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02:25<slee>ok, time to go attempt a sneak-attack on the wife and fail then cry myself to sleep
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02:27<Pikka>why can't AI's change their company colour?
02:27<Pikka>or AIs
02:27<Pikka>whichever you like
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02:54<Pikka>I'm improving my style, taking repetitive bits from different parts of the code and turning them into a single function
02:54<Pikka>this is where bugs are born
02:54<andythenorth>that is all I do
02:54<andythenorth>otherwise I'd be bored :P
02:54<andythenorth>and I'd have to do drawing
02:56<Pikka>amazingly, I moved some code and it didn't break
02:56<Pikka>I'm always suspicious when that happens
02:57<andythenorth>do you have regression tests? o_O
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03:07<Pikka>I have "restarting the AI and seeing if it crashes"
03:09<andythenorth>I have no regression tests either :)
03:09<andythenorth>but I have some code that whines at me if I make certain silly mistakes
03:10*andythenorth bbl, lego-ish children-ish things to do
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03:18<Elyon>good morning!
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03:37<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i noticed this before... planetmaker has this habit of using "feasible" when "possible" would be more appropriate
03:38<Eddi|zuHause>i would use "feasible" in the sense of "could be made possible"
03:38<Eddi|zuHause>just because something is not possible right now doesn't mean it's not feasible
03:41<Elyon>is using variable 7E (procedure call) with variable 7B (pass argument from computational value) feasible, then? :D
03:44<Pikka>Eddi: I, on the other hand, would have used those two words the other way around :)
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03:47<Pikka>I thinik my AI may actually be finished. :o unless someone can point out where I've missed that AIs can change company colours...
03:47<Pikka>also, thinik
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03:49<Elyon>what does it do?
03:49<Elyon>collect meaningful data about its surroundings, then discards this and drives into walls?
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03:49<Pikka>only sometimes
03:53<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: it's possible (:p) that i have a completely wrong understanding of what these words mean
03:54<Pikka>I would interpret "possible" as "could/may/will theoretically be done" and "feasable" as "could/may/will actually be done"
03:55<@planetmaker>satisfied, Eddi|zuHause ;)
03:55<Elyon>but something may be possible without being feasible
03:55<Elyon>good morning :)
03:55<Eddi|zuHause>not really. :)
03:56<@planetmaker>feasible means 'machbar' and possible means 'möglich'
03:56<Elyon>doable and possible?
03:56<@planetmaker>doable is about a synonym for feasible, I think
03:57<@planetmaker>possible has a different direction
03:57<Elyon>that's what I think, as well, by my understanding of the words "mach" and "bar" :p
03:57<Eddi|zuHause>if in doubt: everybody else is wrong :p
03:57<Elyon>the danish word is probably "muligt"
03:57<Elyon>(for possible)
03:58<Elyon>planetmaker: I am beginning to understand NFO stations! :D
03:58<@planetmaker>good :)
03:59<Elyon>also, this place seems dead for days sometimes ...
03:59<@planetmaker>this channel?
03:59<Eddi|zuHause>let's just stick with: "i'm way too theoretically aligned to use the word 'feasible' in any meaningful context"
04:00<@planetmaker>Hardly any day passes with random people like us talking here. More or often less on-topic :P
04:01<Elyon>I guess :)
04:01<@planetmaker>but sure enough not every day much happens. People have lives. And different times
04:02<Elyon>question: is the 7B/7E variable conundrum to avoid branching in newgrfs?
04:02<Elyon>because it would be rather useful!
04:04<Eddi|zuHause>what do these variables do?
04:04<Elyon>7E is procedure call, 7B reads the parameter of its variable from the accumulator
04:05<Elyon>so doing 7B 7E would go to the procedure as indicated by the accumulator, instead of a hardcoded procedure
04:06<Elyon>but 7B specifically does not support `7B` or `7E`
04:06<Eddi|zuHause>and you can't just use register 0x100 for that?
04:06<Elyon>wait ...
04:08<Elyon>huh? I can't find any documentation on that, all I can find says that 0x100-0x10F is for passing extra data to some variables - not which ones
04:09<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, why not write stuff to a register, and call a function that reads this register and branches to the correct function?
04:10<Pikka>that sounds familiar...
04:10<Elyon>how would I branch? Ranges in a standard varaction2?
04:11<Elyon>hmm. That would work, I guess.
04:11<Elyon>or; of course it would! Thanks, don't know why I didn't think of that
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07:14<andythenorth>all things are possible
07:14<andythenorth>not all things are feasible
07:15*andythenorth suspects that in fact not all things are possible
07:15<andythenorth>measuring the velocity and position of a particle
07:15<andythenorth>knowing the state of a cat in a box
07:16<@Alberth>going faster than the speed of light
07:16<@planetmaker>no problem to go faster than light
07:17<MNIM>andythenorth: isn't it the other way round?
07:17<andythenorth>already things go faster than light
07:17<@planetmaker>except you cannot do that in vacuum *and* transmit information
07:17<andythenorth>MNIM: ?
07:17<@Alberth>impossible things just don't exist :)
07:18<MNIM>you measure the state of the cat, not the particle.
07:18<andythenorth>some possible things also don't exist
07:18<andythenorth>like roadtypes
07:18<andythenorth>and NewStations
07:18<MNIM>NewStations? since when does that not exist?
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07:20<andythenorth>the voxel tool looks nice
07:20<andythenorth>does it do the right proportions?
07:21<@Alberth>doesn't "New" indicate "we hate the existing feature, it should be rebuild from scratch" ?
07:21<@Alberth>it looks a lot like pixa
07:21<andythenorth>Alberth: no
07:21<andythenorth>"New" implies it will be discussed but never done
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07:22<andythenorth>we should talke more about OldButLessCrappy
07:22<Japa>What's this voxel tool?
07:23<andythenorth>planetmaker: it has a graphical editor in it? Or everything is typing numbers?
07:23<@planetmaker>try the link he provided. Or look at the screen I attached. Graphical
07:24<@planetmaker>quite nice tool really
07:24<@planetmaker>makes it quick to draw vehicles
07:24<@planetmaker>how easy it is to make it appear also really nice... dunno :)
07:24<andythenorth>just time
07:25<andythenorth>tool is irrelevant, except how easy it is to use :D
07:30<andythenorth>it's pretty easy :)
07:30<andythenorth>makes certain assumptions about symetry though
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07:53<frosch123>yay, kdiff3 has a line matching preprocessing command
07:53<@planetmaker>kdiff3 is nice, yes :)
07:53<frosch123>can i export the diff view somehow though?
07:55<@planetmaker>hm... that I don't know :)
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07:56<@planetmaker>merges got much easier since I use kdiff3 as my merge tool, though
07:56<frosch123>well, i am not using it for merging :p
07:56<frosch123>i diffed the english.txt thingie
07:57<@planetmaker>ah, that. too many {NBSP} for my liking
07:57<frosch123>yes, i killed those with sed
07:57<frosch123>there eddi is absolutely right
07:57<@planetmaker>fully agree
07:57<frosch123>that is a word user change :p
07:58<frosch123>in theory someone can draw all those fancy characters for the sprite font
07:58<frosch123>but the nbsp padding is wrong
07:58<@planetmaker>yes. If it's used in another string: then it needs be done there. If it's at the end or beginning: it's window layout
08:02<Japa>Well, that was relatively easy.
08:03<@planetmaker>Japa, with changed size it also works for 4x sprites ,or?
08:04<frosch123>is that feasible?
08:04<frosch123>you need to shade the sides differently anyway alter on
08:05<@planetmaker>there are settings for sprite size
08:05<frosch123>so you cannot use it for the final sprite, can you?
08:05<Japa>frosch123, it shades it.
08:05<@planetmaker>I'm actually pondering whether it might live well on a DevZone page
08:06<Japa>It's a pain in the ass on larger sizes, though
08:06<Japa>it becomes really slow, and the drawing limitations become more of a problem
08:06<Japa>needs bigger brushes
08:06<@planetmaker>and drag
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08:07<MNIM>question: what makes it better than making a 3d model and rendering that?
08:08<@planetmaker>question: what makes 3d modeling and rendering that better than it?
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08:09<frosch123>MNIM: a modeller is for shapes
08:09<frosch123>train shapes are all the same
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08:09<frosch123>this is a texture editor with a default shape
08:09<frosch123>so a modeller is useless, there is no shape to model
08:10<Japa>frosch123, actually, you make the shape too.
08:10<frosch123>it's always a box :)
08:10<frosch123>hmm, then i should play more
08:10<Japa>there's some slice options above that you can play with.
08:11<Japa>Notice the shape of the roof in my screenshot
08:13<frosch123>hmm, maybe i misunderstood the tool completely last night
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08:22<MNIM>frosch123: well, you could just use a standard model for that, too.
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08:48<frosch123> <- so, that's what the build-in shape is
08:48<frosch123>i made all sides 50% grey
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08:53<@planetmaker>Zeph said it's 100% javascript. So all the code is in the website you view :)
08:57<Elyon>is there a way for me to check milliseconds per frame (or just fps)? If so, is there a way for me to check what parts of the game took how long to compute?
08:59<@planetmaker>30 msec / tick
08:59<@planetmaker>the game won't profit from more fps. And will simply run slower when cpu is at 100%
09:00<Elyon>yes, I am interested in how slow and what's slowing it down ^-^;
09:00<@planetmaker>you need to compile the game then yourself
09:00<@Alberth>use a profiler
09:00<Elyon>Alberth: hmm
09:00<Elyon>planetmaker: oh?
09:03<Elyon>Alberth: such as?
09:05<frosch123>plus kcachekrind for result viewing ofc
09:05<frosch123>mind the "call" vs. "cache"
09:05<frosch123>there is also cachegrind, but usually you want callgrind
09:05<frosch123>kcachegrind visualises for both
09:06<Elyon>okay alright, thanks :) On it now
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09:06<frosch123>linux only btw
09:07<frosch123>though i think someone ported it to osx
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09:09<Elyon>no worries, already up and running :)
09:11<frosch123>you will need a debug build of ottd, ideally with optimisation enabled
09:12<frosch123>and you should start ottd with parameter "-v sdl:no_threads"
09:12<frosch123>it's far more useable that way
09:12<frosch123>i.e. "valgrind --tool callgrind -- bin/openttd -v sdl:no_threads"
09:12<fonsinchen>You'll still need a lot of patience, though.
09:12<fonsinchen>There's also gprof
09:13<fonsinchen>It's less accurate but to run it you just have to do "make run-prof"
09:14<fonsinchen>and it executes at near "normal" time.
09:17<Elyon>frosch123, fonsinchen, I see. I think I've already found my bottleneck though - or confirmed it anyway
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09:27<@planetmaker>-STR_SCENEDIT_FILE_MENU_QUIT :Exit
09:27<@planetmaker>+STR_SCENEDIT_FILE_MENU_QUIT :Quit Open Transport Tycoon <--- aaaaaaaah!
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09:30<Elyon>what happen !!
09:30<Taede>openttd != open transport tycoon deluxe
09:30<Elyon>indeed not
09:30<Taede>openttd == open ttd
09:30<@planetmaker>that suggested string change makes my head hurt badly
09:31<Elyon>the ttd is not really an abbreviation (anymore), is it?
09:31<@planetmaker>officially never has been
09:31<Elyon>I see
09:31<@planetmaker>related to this game
09:31<@planetmaker>for copyright reasons
09:31<Elyon>that makes perfect sense
09:31<@planetmaker>or trademark. Or whatever reasons
09:31<Elyon>staying safe :D
09:32<Elyon>so what you pasted is a proposed string change?
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09:32<@planetmaker>frosch was so kind to actually make it nicely readible
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09:36<@planetmaker>I didn't find any change where the removal of the colon is sensible
09:36<Elyon>pity when someone puts in a lot of work for something that doesn't quite work out
09:41<Elyon>on that note: turns out running thousands of advanced varaction2 operations per tile was a bit much
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09:57<frosch123> <- hmm, i should revive that at some point :p
09:59<@planetmaker>as normal part of NewGRF debug tools?
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10:17<frosch123>we should turn ottd into a newgrf dev engine
10:17<@planetmaker>and add gimp sources
10:18<frosch123>and loffice
10:21*andythenorth has missed something :P
10:21<andythenorth>are we editing vehicles in game now?
10:22<andythenorth>presumably if openttd can parse newgrf, it could dump it back to a file too :P
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10:26<andythenorth>would give new meaning to "don't change newgrfs on a running game" :P
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11:17<frosch123>hmm, it's "5 head of livestock", not "5 heads of livestock" ?
11:18<Elyon>frosch123: related?
11:18<frosch123>you need more trains
11:19<Elyon>you can't tell how many trains I have~
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11:19<Elyon>although evidently, not enough
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11:19<@planetmaker>that's insane, Elyon ;)
11:19<frosch123>i guess V would claim "not enough trains" is a tautology
11:20<Elyon>I messed up somewhere and accidentally enabled all tile subzones as being pigs
11:20<@planetmaker>not enough beer surely
11:21<frosch123>maybe the trains can flow through a pile of goods and end up loaded on the other end
11:21<Elyon>that would be neat
11:21<Elyon>loading time: 0
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11:34<Elyon>code generation \o/
11:36<Elyon>how much space is alright to use per repo?
11:37<Elyon>is, say, 10 MB for a repo alright?
11:38<frosch123>all the 32bpp sets are way beyond 1GB
11:39<frosch123>108M nuts, 71M heqs, 87M fish, 89M firs, 79M ogfx, 1.3G ogfx-trains, 2.9G zbase
11:40<Elyon>so what you're saying is I shouldn't worry about anything less than 50
11:40<Elyon>also woah, 2.9G zbase o_o
11:40<frosch123>i am not sure whether you mean the complete repo, or a single revision
11:41<@Alberth>why would you want to store generated code, store the generator instead
11:41<frosch123>but i wouldn't know why space should be an issue
11:41<Elyon>Alberth: it's nondeterministic. But you're right, actually
11:41<frosch123>nondeterministic generation :p
11:41<frosch123>that sounds like i will refuse to debug that :)
11:42<Elyon>it's for generating random-looking tile layouts
11:42<Elyon>Alberth: but I will follow your advice and ignore the generated code
11:44<Elyon>actually no. It's only a few MB. I will strip the file from the repo if it ever becomes a problem, but I don't want to force people to install an interpreter just for running a generator, just to compile the newgrf :)
11:45<Elyon>*or* I could make the generator deterministic
11:48<@planetmaker>Elyon, space is not much a problem and you will not be in trouble as long as you don't use it as binary dump :)
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11:51<Elyon>planetmaker: I wasn't planning on doing that, but I've taken measures to remove the generated code anyway :)
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11:54<@planetmaker>well. Don't add generated stuff. Add the generator instead :)
11:55<frosch123>if the generation is non-deterministic, he has to add the generated stuff
11:56<@planetmaker>generation is non-deterministic here?
11:57<@planetmaker>I guess I should have read back completely :)
11:57<Elyon>nah, I'm making it deterministic
11:57<Elyon>might as well
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13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26318 /trunk/src/lang (8 files) (2014-02-08 18:46:35 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>afrikaans - 1 changes by R2dical
13:46<@DorpsGek>catalan - 34 changes by juanjo
13:46<@DorpsGek>hebrew - 61 changes by oofnik
13:46<@DorpsGek>italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
13:46<@DorpsGek>korean - 1 changes by telk5093
13:46<@DorpsGek>polish - 1 changes by wojteks86
13:46<@DorpsGek>gaelic - 2 changes by GunChleoc
13:46<@DorpsGek>swedish - 2 changes by spacejens
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14:33*andythenorth is very bored of unfinished ships
14:34<andythenorth>if the base graphics were done I could start doing cargo stuff with PIL
14:36<andythenorth>has anyone here tried Squid?
14:36*andythenorth needs opinions
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14:37<@Alberth>haven't played with it for a while
14:37<Miauw>I have a train station and trains sometimes randomly rotate in it
14:37<Miauw>And then they can't find a way to get out
14:38<Miauw>Eck, gotta go
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18:09<Wolf01>'night all
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22:53<Flygon>Dammit Pikka @_@
22:53<Flygon>Now I want some!
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---Logclosed Sun Feb 09 00:00:06 2014