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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-02-18

---Logopened Tue Feb 18 00:00:57 2014
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01:02<V453000> (: the original choice in last version was 22 :D now more than 33
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01:43<Supercheese>needs portals
01:43<Supercheese>"Trains will teleport at random intervals"
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02:51<Xaroth|Work>V453000: love the category 'meow' and 'brainmelt' :P
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03:39<V453000> GO HELP HIM :D
03:39<V453000>anybody shares the opinion that this person is of severe brain illness?
03:41<Xaroth|Work>somewhat, yes
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10:28<Eddi|zuHause>i don't get this mfans guy, he says he's afraid of bugs in beta, but then he plays a random patchpack?
10:36<peter1139>Because they're not called betas.
10:40<@planetmaker>oh, does he? That's cute :)
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12:32<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: but... it patched a release, so it must be more stable
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12:50*frosch123 ponders a duck only toyland game with sv and toys goal
12:50<@planetmaker>quak quak :D
12:50<@planetmaker>but what are sv?
12:51<frosch123>silicon valley
12:51<frosch123>what is the meow class abuot?
12:51<@planetmaker>oh, sure :)
12:54<frosch123>hmm, so my blind coded windows patches did not work :p
12:56<frosch123>ah, i see it
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12:58<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26353 /trunk/src/thread (thread_os2.cpp thread_win32.cpp) (2014-02-18 17:58:46 UTC)
12:58<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r26349) [FS#5917]: Win32 and OS/2 ThreadMutex::WaitForSignal always asserted.
12:59<frosch123>maybe coding stuff blindly, committing it, checking whether the farm succeeds, and then letting users test whether it even starts is not the ideal method :p
13:00<frosch123>but it helps with moar cake
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>you could always just throw an r26353 party :p
13:02<frosch123>that's too obvious
13:03<frosch123>you could add the numbers of bear bottle which V consumed in his life to it
13:03<frosch123>then we can make a 50k party
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13:06<frosch123>2 liters of beer per day over 10 years or so
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>how small are your beer bottles?
13:07<@planetmaker>you know them, Eddi|zuHause :)
13:07<@planetmaker>you drank from V's bottles, too
13:07<frosch123>0.3 to make it easier for him :p
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13:08<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i drank some beer bottles which i found unusually small
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13:08<frosch123>there also exist 0.2 bottles
13:08<frosch123>but they are silly
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>you almost exclusively get 0.5 bottles over here
13:09<frosch123>20 or 24 bottles per box?
13:10<frosch123>or 30?
13:12<frosch123>i think the spambots on the forums are way too old
13:13<frosch123>is 34 our average age?
13:13<@planetmaker>I raise it :P
13:13<@planetmaker>but I think 34 is above average
13:14<frosch123>well, i also enter the twens this year
13:14<frosch123>what did the "h" at the end mean?
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>i only marginally lower that
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think it's that far off, though
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>and there are 20 bottles per case
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>or sometimes 11
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>"A 27-year-old woman was arrested for not returning a VHS-cassete of the film 'Monster-in-law' since 2005"
13:19<frosch123>is that similar to husband-in-law ?
13:21<frosch123>planetmaker: i am not sure about 1.3.3, i have a suspicion that 1.3.2 may be better :p
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: the german title is "Das Schwiegermonster"
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>which i don't remember watching
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>which is probably a good thing in either case :p
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>(either it's so bad that i did not bother watching it, or it's so bad that not remembering is a defensive mechanism of my brain)
13:27<Aristide>Unlimited Drink *o*
13:27<Aristide>Hi o/
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13:40<Wolf01>evenink o/
13:40<@Alberth>hi hi
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26354 trunk/src/lang/unfinished/frisian.txt (2014-02-18 18:45:08 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>frisian - 22 changes by Geoloep
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14:15<frosch123> <- Eddi|zuHause: it wouldn't have helped if he had said he was an american
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14:17<Aristide> <3
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14:33*Alberth waves back
14:33*andythenorth played a game for a bit yesterday
14:33<andythenorth>but then had to fix a newgrf for 40 mins :P
14:34<andythenorth>such is life
14:34<@Alberth>all developers seem to have that problem :)
14:34<andythenorth>do the rest of you not find FIRS a bit too intricate btw?
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>as soon as you start playing the metagame, you can't enjoy the game anymore
14:34<andythenorth>too many connections contending in FIRS
14:35<andythenorth>spoils the fun of original TTD imo
14:35<Pinkbeast>FIRS: nah, it's not like one has to move every cargo
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>because you get incomfortable with the game limitations, you think about how easily they could be extended
14:35*andythenorth is playing a GS challenge (Silicon Valley)
14:35<andythenorth>so I have to move farm cargos to a town
14:35<andythenorth>and manufacturing supplies
14:36<andythenorth>to get man. supplies I need metal, which means coal, iron and scrap
14:36<Pinkbeast>... but it delays the point where there's nothing to do because everything's hooked up, without having to play on a stupidly huge map
14:36<andythenorth>then I have to drop it all at a massive transfer station, and use trucks or small trains
14:36<andythenorth>then I have to build another network in that mess to get farm supplies back to the farms
14:36<andythenorth>and another one to get engineering supplies to the mines for coal, iron and scrap
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>i thought that was the entire point of FIRS
14:36<andythenorth>and this is just 'Basic'
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>if you don't want that, play the default industries
14:37<andythenorth>or I make another Basic, low-connectedness economy
14:38<andythenorth>also I would restore the default station-rating-influences-industry-production behaviour....
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>don't do that.
14:38<andythenorth>...if I could understand my code
14:38<andythenorth>not mine, yexo's :)
14:39<frosch123>ah, the meow class belongs to the purr tracks
14:39<frosch123>how obvious
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>wtf is a purr track?
14:40<andythenorth>some questions better not asked :)
14:40<Taede>its track where the meow engines start to purr
14:40<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: that was a mistake
14:40<@Alberth>andythenorth: I never really bothered with the supplies
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14:40<frosch123>you are an evil alien who captured the real eddi!
14:41<frosch123>what did you do to him, give him back!
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>he got replaced by someone who is actually trying to finish studying
14:43<frosch123>sounds like eddi, let someone else finish it
14:50<andythenorth>Alberth: how do you increase industry output? o_O
14:50<andythenorth>or you don't?
14:51<@Alberth>indeed, I don't
14:51<andythenorth>oic :)
14:51<andythenorth>maybe that is much more relaxing
14:51<andythenorth>I kind of wonder about an OTTD equivalent of a fishtank :)
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>that is a perfectly valid use of the game mechanics :p
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that's called a title game
14:52<andythenorth>or browsing servers?
14:52<andythenorth>I'm really reluctant to distribute these farm supplies
14:52<andythenorth>the network is boring to build and run
14:53<andythenorth>can someone write an AI to do it? o_O
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>use cargodist
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>put a supplies wagon on every farm train
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>like a caboose
14:54<andythenorth>cargodist doesn't understand how to do it
14:54<andythenorth>I tried it in a game
14:56<fonsinchen>what went wrong?
14:57<andythenorth>let me see if I can load the save
14:57<andythenorth>we discussed it before at length, but I never provided the save :|
14:57<fonsinchen>I think it boiled down to the fact that no one likes the distribution by covered tiles thing
14:58<fonsinchen>However, once you know how it works, you should be able to get a somewhat useful distribution of supplies
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>yes, for supplies, you probably want equal amounts to every industry, independent of distance or "demand"
14:59<frosch123>hmm, they changed something in the matrix
14:59<fonsinchen>You can level out the demands by setting the influence of distance to 0 and covering the same number of tiles on every target.
14:59*fonsinchen has seen a cat above
15:00<andythenorth>can't find the save :(
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>which brings us back to the problem that the demand calculation settings are global, and not per cargo(-category)
15:00<andythenorth>the problem I had was trains sitting waiting for cargo
15:00<frosch123>let's add 78 settings for all registered cargo labels
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i name my savegames by a random town, so i easily can distinguish different games
15:00<andythenorth>with thousands of crates at the station
15:00<frosch123>3 settings per cargo ofc, so 134
15:00<fonsinchen>andythenorth, that's a different problem then
15:00<andythenorth>also there was somewhat conflicting advice about whether capacity influences distribution or not
15:01<andythenorth>fonsinchen: yes, I wonder now if it is a bug, so trying to find save
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the stockpile at intermediate stations lowers the rating at the source station, or so
15:01<andythenorth>it does? o_O
15:01<fonsinchen>Capacity doesn't influence the demands, but it influences the routes the cargo will take to fulfill the demands
15:02<fonsinchen>that too
15:02<andythenorth>this was the screenie, but I have to find the bloody save
15:02<andythenorth>Jingleville Tanner road was getting no cargo allocated
15:04<andythenorth>found it
15:04<andythenorth>problem #2 - non-bananas newgrfs :P
15:05<Pinkbeast>"let's add 78 settings for all registered cargo labels" - yes please, even if hidden from J. Random User.
15:05<andythenorth>fonsinchen: cdist bugs go on flyspray?
15:06<fonsinchen>of course they do
15:06<andythenorth>frosch123: that sounds ideal :)
15:07<fonsinchen>andythenorth, maybe check if you have just covered only one tile of the industry with Jingleville Tanner road and more with the other stations.
15:08<fonsinchen>And look at the "Planned" view of the station GUI.
15:08<andythenorth>fonsinchen: I'm making a zip of the save and newgrfs
15:09<andythenorth>how do I check if the save was made with a patched ottd?
15:09<fonsinchen>You crash it and look at the crash.log
15:09<andythenorth>it loads in recent trunk, so I guess it's fine
15:10<fonsinchen>Yes, just upload it and I will take a look at it.
15:13<fonsinchen>If the win32 video driver behaves remotely similar to the SDL one it will want to be mutex-protected in ChangeResolution, ToggleFullscreen, and AfterBlitterChange, too.
15:13<fonsinchen>thanks andythenorth
15:14<andythenorth>I am playing for now with cdist for mail and pax, and manual for other cargos
15:14<andythenorth>which is fine, but makes reverse feeder networks painful :P
15:14<andythenorth>and FIRS demands a lot of reverse feeders :(
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15:15<andythenorth>frosch123: can SV avoid showing the 'only x towns found' message on load of a savegame?
15:16<andythenorth>ah, I can use planes for distributing farm supplies
15:16<andythenorth>we need new airports :P
15:16<andythenorth>3x1 dirt strip
15:16<frosch123>it is said it shall be moved to the story book
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15:23<andythenorth>'double' and 'quadruple' are too much as production boost
15:24<fonsinchen>andythenorth, the planned amounts are 12 crates per month to jingleville, 30 to tinklebury south, and 19 to tinklebury pit
15:24<andythenorth>50% and 100%
15:24<fonsinchen>The difference is not that dramatic ...
15:24<andythenorth>fonsinchen: so is it just bad service causing them to pile up?
15:24<fonsinchen>of course there is still a difference, part of that is due to the fact that the coal mine has 9 tiles and the pit much more
15:25<andythenorth>how do I find out the planned amounts?
15:25<fonsinchen>You're covering 18 tiles at tinklebury south
15:25<fonsinchen>you switch to "Planned" mode in the station GUI
15:25<fonsinchen>The "Waiting" text is a dropdown
15:26<andythenorth>I see
15:26<Pinkbeast>3x1 dirt strip? I'm holding out for the 1x1 cannon. Transports pax and circus supplies
15:26<andythenorth>so I am covering 100% of Jingleville Coal Mine
15:26<andythenorth>but it's a smaller industry
15:26<andythenorth>so less cargo is routed to it
15:26<andythenorth>how interesting :)
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15:27<andythenorth>I would not have thought of that :)
15:27<fonsinchen>It depends on the total tile acceptance covered
15:27<fonsinchen>And then the distribution is not 100% accurate. You can increase the accuracy setting at the cost of CPU time
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15:29<andythenorth>so how would I distribute more to Jingleville Coal Mine?
15:32<fonsinchen>The whole thing doesn't really make sense. You cover 20 tiles at Tinklebury pit but you only get 19 crates there. Let me play around with the accuracy a bit
15:32<andythenorth>how does 'planned' cargo relate to industry production?
15:32<andythenorth>the amounts look like they correspond well
15:33<andythenorth>industry is delivering 40% of 180 crates to station
15:33<andythenorth>which is 72 crates. 62 crates are planned for delivery
15:33<andythenorth>kind of matches?
15:34<fonsinchen>At maximum accuracy both tinkleburies get 25 crates and jingleville gets 12
15:34<fonsinchen>that's actually about correct
15:35<fonsinchen>Yes, it's an average of monthly cargo
15:35<Andreas>if I use {BIG_FONT} in a string, how do I return to normal font size?
15:36<andythenorth>I forget, did we discover any alternatives to counting tiles covered?
15:36<frosch123>Andreas: you actually cannot :p
15:37<frosch123>all strings use at most one size code in the very front
15:37<frosch123>mixing sizes does not really exist
15:37<Andreas>oh :p
15:37<Andreas>well at least this time I am not stupid :p
15:38<fonsinchen>Yes, I can just make that a 1 or 0 decision. If any cargo accepted, distribute to the station, otherwise not. Don't weigh it.
15:38<fonsinchen>That would be a change of about 2 lines of code.
15:39<frosch123>sounds like a setting per cargo class again
15:39<andythenorth>sounds like it's worth trying in a patch
15:40<frosch123>letting andy test a patch sounds excellent :p
15:40<andythenorth>I think what I found counter-intuitive is to have 2,000 crates waiting, and they don't get reassigned
15:40<andythenorth>so another train sits loading for ~long time
15:41<andythenorth>I almost wonder if there should be a cargo pool at a station, and aging cargo gets reassigned
15:41<andythenorth>but then that probably has unexpected consequences
15:41<andythenorth>most things do
15:41<frosch123>or stolen
15:41<andythenorth>or stolen
15:41<frosch123>cargo that waits longer than 5 days should get stolen :)
15:41<andythenorth>unless you build warehouses
15:41<andythenorth>then you get 10 days
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15:42<andythenorth>frosch123 I don't think that's as stupid as you think it is :)
15:42<andythenorth>I assume you're trolling?
15:42<Pinkbeast>Simutrans has warehouses and finite station capacity and this lets you make some really _magnificent_ logjams
15:42<frosch123>no, i honestly think that if you have 2000 cargo waiting
15:42<frosch123>you cannot solve that with cdist
15:42<frosch123>you have to remove the cargo somehow
15:43<andythenorth>it would screw with people who want to use that really popular ship grf
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15:43<andythenorth>it's still #4 on bananas
15:43<frosch123>well, that is just a matter of the timespan
15:43<andythenorth>15,000t cargo
15:43<andythenorth>I thought cargo slowly decayed at stations?
15:44<andythenorth>or did I imagine that?
15:44<frosch123>well, it's fine if there is a vehicle waiting for loading
15:44<frosch123>but originally cargo vanished due to low rating
15:44<frosch123>with cdist you would need a rating per destination or something
15:44<andythenorth>and I fucked ratings anyway with FIRS
15:44<andythenorth>although I turn that off currently in my games
15:45<andythenorth>so stations....
15:45<andythenorth>- the new UI confuses me :)
15:45<andythenorth>- the newgrf handling of display for waiting is borderline stupid :)
15:45<andythenorth>- and waiting cargo should disappear if not collected?
15:46<frosch123>i do not exactly know how cargo rating currently works at transfer stations
15:46<frosch123>and how low of a rating you can get if you service only some destinations badly
15:47<andythenorth>it's a puzzle eh?
15:49<andythenorth>I spend too much time in games looking at overflowing transfer stations :D
15:49<andythenorth>or pickups
15:49<andythenorth>this might be somewhat self-inflicted due to....
15:49<andythenorth>- FIRS 'improved' station rating
15:50<andythenorth>- FIRS quadruple production multiplier at primaries, and boost behaviour at secondaries
15:50<andythenorth>- CHIPS gives the impression of a lot of cargo waiting :P
15:50<andythenorth>- I use a lot of slow things like trams and ships :(
15:51<andythenorth>it's not a problem in default game, just add more trains, more platforms, build high-capacity ro-ro stations :P
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15:57<fonsinchen>If you change demands.cpp:123 to just return from.Supply() you get 24/17/15 crates with default accuracy and 19/19/16 with maximum accuracy
15:57<fonsinchen>I doubt that this would make a real difference in that game.
15:59<andythenorth>nah probably not :)
15:59<andythenorth>the dist. looks like it is doing the right thing
16:00<andythenorth>the main confusion arises from the amounts waiting + I don't understand the station UI
16:00<andythenorth>when explained, it makes sense
16:02<fonsinchen>The supplies must have been piling up there for about 3 game years at that rate of production.
16:02<andythenorth>yeah I think so
16:03<fonsinchen>You might have considered increasing the capacity on that route before. That's what cargodist is about, you know ...
16:03<frosch123>what is the cargo rating at those transfer stations?
16:03<andythenorth>and at Tinklebury South cargo is piling up
16:03<fonsinchen>It's not a transfer station, it's the origin
16:03<andythenorth>there is one transfer - 80%
16:03<fonsinchen>Rating is 40%
16:03<andythenorth>the source is 40%
16:03<frosch123>hmm cargo vanishes only at < 25%, right?
16:04<fonsinchen>I've never actually done the math on the piece of code that discards cargo
16:04<frosch123>in what order is cargo loaded onto vehicles?
16:04<frosch123>does it pick random packages? or does the age of packets have any influence?
16:04<fonsinchen>First by next hop, then by age
16:05<frosch123>hmm, actually ... cargo does not age at stations
16:05<frosch123>so it all has age 0 at the origin
16:05<frosch123>maybe that is the problem :p
16:11<andythenorth>fonsinchen: wrt to increasing capacity, FIRS is in conflict with cdist there :(
16:11<andythenorth>I think FIRS is doing it wrong tbh
16:11<andythenorth>FIRS wants only small cargo amounts
16:11<fonsinchen>That's fine for cargodist
16:11<fonsinchen>some 10 to 30 crates is a small amount
16:12<fonsinchen>just make sure you actually deliver them to where they want to go and don't leave them around for 3 years
16:14<frosch123>andythenorth: your transporting staff is quite corrupt. there is not enough capacity to transport all, so they take bribes on what to transport
16:15<frosch123>that decreases the efficiency overall
16:15<andythenorth>it's common in FIRS games to have a lot of cargo piling up
16:15<frosch123>those industries who do not get enough supplies did not bribe enough
16:15<frosch123>andythenorth: add a setting for controlling the influence of amounts?
16:16<frosch123>some supplies: +10%, +20%, +50%
16:16<andythenorth>I think that's necessary
16:16<frosch123>lots supplies: +20%, +100%, +200%
16:16<andythenorth>I did 200% and 400% when we were playing 2 hour long NoCarGoal games
16:16<andythenorth>and we needed cargo fast
16:17<andythenorth>I really think I should restore the standard production behaviour, and then layer supply boost on top
16:17<andythenorth>but I don't understand Yexo's code :)
16:18<andythenorth>I would rather that supplies adjusted the production multiplier instead
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16:25<andythenorth>frosch123: thanks. What do you think about also restoring default prod multiplier behaviour?
16:25<andythenorth>and having supplies adjust that
16:26<frosch123>we tried in the past and considered it terrible
16:26<andythenorth>it's much fiddlier to code I think
16:26<frosch123>the idea of supplies was that they only affect production temporarily, not permanently
16:26<andythenorth>I've also considered some random weighting
16:26<andythenorth>for 'efficiency' or such
16:26<andythenorth>so that some industries demand more supplies
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16:27<frosch123>sounds like details which noone notices :p
16:27<andythenorth>I would notice
16:27<andythenorth>but yeah
16:27<andythenorth>I can't patch that tonight, but will look tomorrow
16:27<andythenorth>need to add action 14 and such
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16:33<frosch123>andythenorth: the way the supplies are coded is actually funny. it does not conflict with the change-production-cheat
16:33<frosch123>you can use them in parallel
16:33<andythenorth>that is pretty useful imho
16:33<andythenorth>I use it for testing all the time :)
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16:33<andythenorth>and it's nice not to break cheats
16:36<andythenorth>dakotas delivering supplies
16:36<andythenorth>planes, always planes
16:36<andythenorth>looks a bit silly at farms
16:36<andythenorth>maybe I should add a crop duster
16:36<andythenorth>can new airports state machine support flying at 3m above fields?
16:37<Kjetil>Supersonic cropduster ?
16:37<Andreas>hehe that actually sounds kinda nice
16:38<Andreas>Kjetil, speeds, distances and dimentions are out of proportion anyway so not much harm can be done in that respect imho
16:44<andythenorth>could station tiles show 1 cargo from a list of n meeting the thresholds?
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16:56<Wolf01>'night all
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17:09<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> no, i honestly think that if you have 2000 cargo waiting <-- but how do you define the limit? i had perfectly well working stations with 11000 passengers waiting
17:10<frosch123>i read in andy's case the cargo was 3 years old or so
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>in theory(tm) the station rating should take care of not overloading the network, but nobody has managed to get this to work properly
17:11<frosch123>i thought about that earlier, but i don't think it's the right thing
17:12<frosch123>you make it less obvious for the player, where the problem is
17:12<V453000>too much unnecessary game control :)
17:12<frosch123>so, it should not prevent the overload, just cut what is way too much
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17:12<V453000>just let the players struggle, let them have too much cargo so they can never win
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>it initially sounds like the right place, but then there is industry growth and closure tied to it, plus the cargo disappearing mid-way if ratings are <50%, which make it work bad...
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17:13<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but on huge map there mey very well be valid routes that take 3 years
17:13<frosch123>but not at a single station
17:14<@planetmaker>especially on 4096^2
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>but if they get transferred close to the end?
17:14<andythenorth>hmm, do we support 0/8 long vehicles? o_O
17:14<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: i am not talking about absolute cargo age
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: unfortunately not, would make a few problems easier
17:14<frosch123>but more like time waiting at a station since last unload
17:14<Andreas>well if cargo is in tranit for scu long times you won't make much money, not even without cargodist
17:14<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: indeed :P
17:15<andythenorth>with 3 part vehicles, a 2/8 long vehicle is no-go :P
17:15<andythenorth>that is a problem when the graphics are drawn for 2/8
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that's why i don't make short vehicles with 3 parts
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17:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: also, i don't make vehicles of length 2 :p
17:16<andythenorth>that makes sense
17:16<andythenorth>I don't fancy recoding all of Iron Horse again though
17:16<frosch123>do it like nuts
17:16<andythenorth>it's getting kind of boring
17:16<frosch123>make all vehicle lengths multiple of 8
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: well, that's why i put this stuff into a table, so it can easily be adjusted
17:17<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I am not as clever as you :)
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>in theory(again tm) it can do more than 3 parts as well
17:17<andythenorth>I can't even fathom how to write a code generator
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>it's totally easy: read input, transform data, write output
17:19<andythenorth>it's also easy for you to speak german :)
17:19<andythenorth>not so much me
17:19<andythenorth>these are 3/8 long
17:19<andythenorth>maybe I dodge this bullet :)
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---Logclosed Wed Feb 19 00:00:04 2014