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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-02-19

---Logopened Wed Feb 19 00:00:04 2014
---Daychanged Wed Feb 19 2014
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03:02<dihedral>good morning
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06:48*roboboy looks forward to having another crack at Python development once he gets help with his project
06:54<@planetmaker>roboboy, I used to semi-automatically edit the newgrf wiki when its content was transitioned from ttdpatch wiki to its current place. It uses tt-f account
06:55<@planetmaker>at least I think it was that kind of bot
06:57<roboboy>Ok. does it log in using the tt-f log in system or the wiki login system? I would think they are different but linked
06:57<@planetmaker>probably the wiki one, yes
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07:04<peter1139>Debian 9.0 code name announced - Zurg!
07:08<peter1139>Really ought to do some upgrades...
07:09<MNIM>peter1139: future debian offshoots will henceforth be called 'zurglings'
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07:14<roboboy>will see what gets posted on the Python newsgroup regarding my code
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07:30<roboboy>I wonder if I have to fill out the entire login form or can get away with just filling out the username and password fields
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07:34<Xaroth|Work>wtf are you trying to do, roboboy ?
07:35<@planetmaker>writing a spam bot. But calling it a forum administration bot :P
07:38<roboboy>once I sort out how to log in, it will just give me a list of users to ban. If it successfully gives me a list for a week or so that has no genuine users in it then I will look to make it do the banning for me :)
07:40<Xaroth|Work>tried mechanize?
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07:42<roboboy>no. Will have a look at it later as I should go to bed soon plus I want to see what crops up on usenet. It looks like it may be easier to use. I was suggested requests by someone on here so thats what I started using
07:44<@planetmaker>roboboy, but maybe you should search for spambots and mofiy one of those :D
07:45<roboboy>I tried to but most of Google's results were for dealing with them :P
07:46<roboboy>or they were about phpBB mods that implemented bot features which is no good for us
07:52<roboboy>gnight peoples
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09:11<Taede>is it known that gives a 502 bad gateway atm?
09:13<V453000>NOT KNOWN BY ME
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09:30<@planetmaker>Taede, use
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10:33<Taede>does that mean i need to use mercurial instead of svn?
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10:48<peter1139>svn+ssh still works ;)
11:02<Taede>svn:// instead of http:// works too
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12:16<@planetmaker>Taede, it's only the web interface which always oom crashes
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12:50<Eddi|zuHause>just make a cronjob which tests memory usage, and kill the process before it goes oom?
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>(and immediately restart it)
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>or skip the test and just restart the process anyway, every X days
12:54<@planetmaker>or simply discontinue the service to offer web interface to svn
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12:58<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: that thing is called ulimit
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but that doesn't automatically restart
12:59<frosch123>but it kills
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: what i mean is a "watchdog"
12:59<frosch123>first kill, then think or so
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13:30<@Rubidium>if only it were OOM crashing; then it would fix itself
13:30<@Rubidium>the problem is that it doesn't OOM crash, but just stops functioning properly
13:31<@Rubidium>... but it doesn't crash
13:31<@Rubidium>so there is nothing telling it isn't functioning or it is functioning
13:31<@Rubidium>also, AFAIK, the amount of memory it uses just after starting compared to non-functional is somewhat equivalent
13:32<@Rubidium>(it likes to allocate as much memory as possible it seems)
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>then just go for the "always kill" variant
13:32<@Rubidium>but after how long?
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>like every week at 4AM (CET).
13:32<@Rubidium>cause it has been getting into this state after a few minutes
13:33<@Rubidium>it mainly seems to depend on what info is accessed, but I'm not sure which it is exactly
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>or make a proper watchdog actually testing the functionality
13:34<@Rubidium>alternatively we just trash tracd
13:34<@Rubidium>even though it seems to be the least ugly interface
13:35*Eddi|zuHause just has an image in his head of a computer ejecting the CD drive to hit another computer's reset button
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13:42<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: do computers still have reset buttons? Why did they even have them in the first place, since it's nothing more than power off - power on
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>my computer has a reset button, but it's kinda sunken into the case, so it's difficult to hit
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26355 /trunk/src/lang (czech.txt portuguese.txt) (2014-02-19 18:45:15 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>czech - 4 changes by djst
13:45<@DorpsGek>portuguese - 1 changes by babribeiro
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14:34<andythenorth>shame that new airports never went anywhere
14:34<@planetmaker>well. They went somewhere. They went half-way
14:35<@planetmaker>they actually went 3/4 way
14:35<@planetmaker>there's a feature airport for newgrfs. You can define arbitrary airports
14:35<@planetmaker>the only thing you cannot define is a new statemachine
14:35<@planetmaker>thus it's one property which is missing newgrf specs
14:36<andythenorth>indeed :)
14:36<andythenorth>although on the plus side...
14:36<andythenorth>we don't have newgrfs with a confusing number of pointless airports
14:37<andythenorth>there's no debate about enforcing an airport-type spec
14:37<andythenorth>there are no bug reports
14:37<@planetmaker>the first thing we would likely see is gigantolomaniac airports newgrf :)
14:37<andythenorth>no copyright-infringement-of-graphics drama
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14:37<@planetmaker>lol. Graphics are all there :)
14:37<andythenorth>missing features ftw :P
14:40<andythenorth>this game is currently fun
14:40<andythenorth>although it's laggy on my mac
14:40<andythenorth>scrolling is like glue
14:40<andythenorth>fuck me, it's way more fluid in full-screen :o
14:41<@Alberth>some people tend to be reverting to an older idea, having in-game buildable airports
14:41<@Alberth>(it's not me, I haven't decided about that idea :) )
14:41<@planetmaker>yep, saw something like that some time ago
14:41<andythenorth>planetmaker: I'm on Mavericks - windowed mode is noticeably slow to drag the map
14:42<@planetmaker>I don't know :)
14:42<andythenorth>full-screen is silky smooth
14:42<@planetmaker>interesting :)
14:42<andythenorth>and in-game buildable airports sucks
14:42<@planetmaker>why do they?
14:42<@planetmaker>ingame buildable stations don't suck either
14:42<andythenorth>file it under andythenorth is wrong
14:42<@Alberth>it's an openttd property :p
14:43<andythenorth>why do I have so many FMSP piling up :(
14:43<andythenorth>stupid game
14:43<andythenorth>I should deliver fewer :P
14:43<@Alberth>nah :p
14:43<@planetmaker>your cows don't eat and don't shit enough, I guess
14:43<@planetmaker>probably they're not nuts enough :D
14:43*planetmaker is silly
14:44<@Alberth>are there cows too there?
14:44<@Alberth>I believe cats and flying pigs, but cows?
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14:46<@planetmaker>I never know which animal is which :D
14:47<andythenorth>HEQS won't build for me
14:47<andythenorth>I haven't built it for a *very* long time
14:47<andythenorth>[CPP] heqs.cnfo
14:47<andythenorth>sed: RE error: illegal byte sequence
14:48<andythenorth>probably change in my system is incompatible, or a missing thing
14:48<@planetmaker>let's see
14:48<@Alberth>BSD sed instead of Gnu sed?
14:49<@planetmaker>he... it doesn't build for me after make clean. but needs calling it twice... something fishy there
14:50<andythenorth>also it's not reftting clay, which was what I was going to fix
14:50<andythenorth>but I'm sure it used to
14:51<andythenorth>maybe Clay gained 'covered' class or something
14:51<andythenorth>refitting is a pita
14:51<@Alberth>all these opengfx-mars build are just test for nml? there do not seem to be updates to the project
14:52<@Alberth>*builds, *tests
14:54<andythenorth>one thing I am not going to moan about is Iron Horse
14:54<andythenorth>I kind of like it
14:54<andythenorth>I think it's good enough to suggest other people try it
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14:55<@planetmaker>Albert, yes, likely. I haven't exactly found time yet...
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14:55<@planetmaker>I declared opengfx-mars a test project for nml
14:58<andythenorth>someone still needs to make a truck set
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15:02<andythenorth>is there an practical objection to partial load orders?
15:02<andythenorth>or minimum load?
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15:12<@Alberth>more complicated orders perhaps
15:12<@Alberth>no idea what cdist assumes here
15:13<@Alberth>it does have a hard time with the conditional order thingies
15:14<andythenorth>aiui, cdist would be fine with a minimum load order
15:15<@Alberth>I have been wondering whether it tries to be too smart
15:15<@Alberth>but never really looked into it
15:15<andythenorth>the minimum load order would allow network headroom
15:16<andythenorth>it might be addressing a failing of FIRS though, dunno
15:16<@Alberth>yeah, after playing some cdist games, I can see the idea
15:16<andythenorth>FIRS has horrible feedback cycles
15:16<andythenorth>delivering supplies causes primary production to increase, which jams networks, which can cause supplies to fail
15:16<@Alberth>people will like them :p
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>it's even worse with ECS
15:17<@Alberth>obviously you have to build a separate network for supplies :p
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>it's way more fragile
15:17<andythenorth>even with separate networks, ultimately stuff is connected
15:17<@planetmaker>andythenorth, I'd not call that bad feedback cycle. Increasing production is the *aim* of the supplies. And whoever feeds supplies to industries knows the consequences
15:17<andythenorth>somewhere, there's always a connection
15:17<andythenorth>planetmaker: yeah, and I wouldn't want to remove it
15:17<andythenorth>but there's no way to win, at all
15:17<@planetmaker>win in what way?
15:18<andythenorth>you either have vehicles backed up waiting, or massive cargo piles
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>you're just doing it wrong :)
15:18<@Alberth>I have that idea with cdist and connect all industries at the map :p
15:18<@planetmaker>I don't see that happening too much
15:18<@planetmaker>the either too many vehicles or too big piles
15:18<andythenorth>planetmaker: you mostly use trains, with escape depots and such?
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>but i'm certainly not the expert, as i end up transporting passengers mostly
15:18<@planetmaker>I use trains. But not necessarily escape depots
15:19<@Alberth>safe choice, Eddi :)
15:19<@planetmaker>Usually I just build two-tracked stations for starters and add 3 trains
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>it's not by choice, they are just trumping averything
15:19<@planetmaker>and more when the station runs empty of a loading train
15:20<@planetmaker>so there are usually just enough trains so that one or two are constantly loading. Sometimes there may be one or two additional waiting
15:20<@planetmaker>But I have separate drop and pickup stations
15:20<@planetmaker>so pickup doesn't block drop
15:20<andythenorth>my problem is worst with big farm clusters
15:20<andythenorth>and reverse feeders
15:20<andythenorth>they are very sensitive to under delivery
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>try schedules
15:20<andythenorth>and over delivery is ugly
15:21<@planetmaker>slight over-delivery is a safe thing :)
15:21<@Alberth> any idea why zephyris has this weird configuration of stock pile graphics?
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>no clue
15:25<frosch123>Alberth: amount and random?
15:26<@Alberth>sounds like a good option
15:27<@planetmaker>my bet is with frosch's suggestion
15:42<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26356 /trunk/bin/baseset (3 files) (2014-02-19 20:42:33 UTC)
15:42<@DorpsGek>-Update: Baseset translations.
15:45<@planetmaker>andythenorth, I may muck with heqs makefile and stuff?
15:45<andythenorth>sure :)
15:46<@planetmaker>I'll adopt isr's solution. which is based on the much newer make-nml
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15:54<@planetmaker>wow. Long ago that something happend to heqs. But CF built it with the Makefile change
15:55<@planetmaker>so try to pull, andythenorth
15:55<@planetmaker>I'll commit another cleanup commit, but that will not interfere with anything you do, very most likely
15:56<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26357 trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp (2014-02-19 20:56:44 UTC)
15:56<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5845]: Some order options do not combine with others. (3298)
15:57<@planetmaker>that nick is always in for confusion :)
15:57<@planetmaker>not the person, just that nick
15:57<frosch123>yup :)
15:58<frosch123>most patchers i can credit without looking up their exact name again
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16:08<andythenorth>planetmaker: wonder if it's due to OS X dev tools (clang)
16:10<@planetmaker>andythenorth, what sed version do you have?
16:10<@planetmaker>it fails with sed and that causes the rest
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>does that have an option to display which commands it actually tries to execute? like "-x" or so?
16:11<@planetmaker>make _V=
16:11<@planetmaker>but sed is sed. I need the version. The regex works here
16:11<V453000>no _V=
16:11<@planetmaker>yes, _V=beer
16:11<@planetmaker>does, too
16:11<andythenorth>how do I find sed version?
16:11<V453000>that works
16:12<andythenorth>google was not my friend
16:12<@planetmaker>sed --version
16:12<andythenorth>illegal option
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>if in doubt, try "-v"
16:12<@planetmaker>or -h
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>or "man sed"
16:13<@planetmaker>probably BSD sed then. hm
16:13<andythenorth>it's BSD sed
16:14<@planetmaker>which version?
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>bad planetmaker, using nonstandard regexp :p
16:14<@planetmaker>tsk :)
16:14<@planetmaker>perhaps I should call it GnuMakefile :P
16:17<@planetmaker>andythenorth, can you also paste the output of make _V=
16:19<@planetmaker>andythenorth, maybe try also to replace each occurance of sed by sed -E in Makefile
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16:32<@planetmaker>ping andythenorth ?
16:39<andythenorth>sorry - working on something else :)
16:40<andythenorth>planetmaker: fails, same errors afaict
16:40<@planetmaker>well. can't test that. My mac is at work
16:41<@planetmaker>and I don't know which sed fails due to missing output of make _V=
16:45<frosch123>what does -E do?
16:45<@planetmaker>treat arguments as "modern" regular expressions
16:45<frosch123>that's a grep option, no sed option
16:46<@planetmaker>sed as well
16:46<@planetmaker>at least on BSD one. And my sed didn't complain either
16:47<frosch123>some of the sed have "-e", others don'T
16:47<@planetmaker>-e is not -E
16:47<@planetmaker>and -e is used in the Makefile
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16:49<frosch123>well, "illegal byte sequence" actually sounds more like a BOM or so
16:50<@planetmaker>the sed replaces {{GRF_ID}}, {{TITLE}} and {{REPO_VERSION}} by actual replacements. CPP stumbles over {{
16:53<@planetmaker>looking at my man pages of sed I wonder why it didn't complain about -E though
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17:33<fixidixi>could you please tell me how could i create a bit more complex orders for trains?
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>click on the buttons?
17:34<fixidixi>like i fill the train with raw materials on station 1 and empty it on station 2. then i pack up the goods ive just created
17:35<fixidixi>but how do i tell the train that when it arrives at station 1 it should 'deliver' the cargo
17:35<fixidixi>and shouldnt fill it
17:35<fixidixi>so how do i specify how are different things handeled?
17:35<@planetmaker>goto A
17:35<@planetmaker>goto B
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>did you refit the wagons?
17:36<fixidixi>yea i did. my problem is
17:36<@planetmaker>that does the load and unload. Don't use transfer, if you didn't look up what it does
17:36<@planetmaker>no explicit load or unload orders are needed by default
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>use "unload and leave empty"
17:36<fixidixi>that now it unloads the goods at station 1, but then packs up oil and packs up the goods also it just delivered
17:37<fixidixi>ok im going to be specific to this case:
17:38<fixidixi>i pack up oil in station 1. deliver & unload it @ station 2. then pack the goods the refinery created. then head back for more oil at station one
17:38<fixidixi>but there is also a city nearby
17:38<fixidixi>so i tought the train could 'transfer' the goods
17:39<fixidixi>then another train/car could deliver the goods in the city
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>"transfer" means "do NOT deliver"
17:39<fixidixi>sorry my english is bad
17:39<fixidixi>so yea i want the goods to stay at the station
17:39<fixidixi>so another line can take care of it
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>well that doesn't work properly
17:40<fixidixi>my problem is
17:40<fixidixi>that i dont know how to tell the train this:
17:40<@planetmaker>two-way transfers don't work well
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>if you use 1.4.0-beta, you can enable cargo distribution, which will transfer stuff automatically
17:40<fixidixi>transfer goods & load all oil
17:40<@planetmaker>unless you get ^
17:40<andythenorth>I hate FIRS farm clusters
17:40<andythenorth>they look very pretty
17:40<@planetmaker>I love them!
17:40<andythenorth>but they are an absolute PITA to service
17:40<@planetmaker>really not
17:41<fixidixi>Eddi|zuHause: now im playin beta 3
17:41<@planetmaker>one central supply station. Which gets supplies by trains. And small vehicles from there deliver to farms
17:41<andythenorth>I have 15 farms in this cluster
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>fixidixi: yes. then you can enable cargo distribution in the settings
17:41<fixidixi>sorry beta4
17:41<@planetmaker>by road. goto depot, goto farm1, goto depot, goto farm2, goto depot, goto farm3
17:41<andythenorth>hmm, round robin
17:42<@planetmaker>so 5 vehicles
17:42<@planetmaker>maybe 8. depends on distances
17:42<andythenorth>how do you stop the stations blocking?
17:43<andythenorth>you need 1 drop off and 2 pick stations at each farm
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>guide the loading and unloading vehicles through different "waypoints"
17:43<andythenorth>every farm ends up surrounded by roads
17:43<@planetmaker>that supply station is a supply station. Not a pickup
17:43<@planetmaker>or use waypoints and dedicated tracks
17:43<andythenorth>what are you doing for pick up?
17:43<@planetmaker>every farm only needs two loading bays
17:43<@planetmaker>also one special drop
17:44<fixidixi>Eddi|zuHause: i cant find this option
17:44<@planetmaker>and stations are parallel, not sequential :)
17:44<@planetmaker>the road stations that is
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>fixidixi: might need to adjust the filter
17:44<fixidixi>where is it located?(im playing a localized version :/)
17:44<fixidixi>i mean which subsection is it
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>fixidixi: on the top there's a filter "basic settings", "advanced settings" etc.
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>fixidixi: it's a category of its own
17:46<fixidixi>is this the one im looking for?: (sorry im trying to translate it back): cargo handling: 3 options one of them is something like
17:47<fixidixi>only unload cargo at station if its needed
17:49<fixidixi>oh think i got it
17:49<fixidixi>dirstribution graph recalculation etc
17:50<fixidixi>well these options are beyond me
17:50<@planetmaker>you don't want to touch those usually.
17:51<@planetmaker>just enable cargo distribution
17:52<fixidixi>which is the one?
17:53<fixidixi>i only see options for days
17:53<fixidixi>and assimetric, simmetric or manual distrubitons
17:53<fixidixi>for passangers, mail, armoured, etc
17:54<@planetmaker>distribution for ... : {symmetric, asymmetric, manual}
17:54<@planetmaker>manual is off.
17:54<@planetmaker>possibly badly named
17:54*andythenorth station walks
17:54<fixidixi>i see
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17:56<fixidixi>well it didnt help :%
17:56<fixidixi>train still packs the goods back
17:56<fixidixi>well have a nice day
17:56<fixidixi>thanks for the effort
17:56<fixidixi>see ya!
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17:59<Eddi|zuHause>cargodist takes a little time to kick in
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>it needs to figure out the routes you have connected first
18:03<andythenorth>good night
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19:07<Eddi|zuHause>it's funny how predictable it is that whenever someone says "the wiki needs cleaning up" the next comment is "hey, thanks for volunteering" :p
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19:25<glx>Eddi|zuHause: it's a something to add to somebody's todo list
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20:49<Tirili>I am still new to openttd
20:50<Tirili>and I wonder, if there is an option to set the prices for a passenger to use my buses etc.
20:50<Tirili>So is there a way to define the prices yourself?
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20:58<TheStevens>sort of
20:58<TheStevens>it involves getting a longer distance in a shorter amount of time.
20:58<TheStevens>but strictly, no
21:02<Tirili>And was this idea already suggested?
21:02<Tirili>Because the current model of prices is unrealistic as fuck
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21:12<Eddi|zuHause>how much experience do you have in managing real prices?
21:14<TheStevens>I'm sure if you'd be willing to create a patch for a user-pays style system people might take that idea a little more seriously
21:15<TheStevens>as it stands, creating such a feature would fundamentally change the economy and cargo distribution of the game.
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21:24<Tirili>Eddi|zuHause: I don't know, if I will find good concepts to create a successful transport company in the real world, but that should not stop us from inventing a realistic demand and pricing model for a computer simulation.
21:24<Tirili>TheStevens: Let me think about it
21:26<Tirili>What I see when I watch multiplayer openttd games is that people just choose the most distant destinations and build up a railway between them whith trains as fast as possible.
21:26<Tirili>That's boring.
21:27<Eddi|zuHause>Tirili: but "realistic" is not the only demand to a simulation game
21:27<Tirili>Then some servers even forbid to take cargo from a source that is already "owned" by other players.
21:27<Eddi|zuHause>there's also "managable", "efficient", "fun", ...
21:28<Tirili>Eddi|zuHause: Sure, but maybe the fun factor will be increased by realism.
21:28<Eddi|zuHause>maybe, maybe not
21:28<Eddi|zuHause>certainly fun is easily spoiled by micromanagement
21:30<Eddi|zuHause>and stuff is shipped from australia to europe all the time, even though europe has its own sources
21:30<Eddi|zuHause>so not every "realism" argument is actually realistic
21:30<Tirili>I don't even see real competition in most openttd matches. Players just do their own thing as fast and big as possible. There are not many options in which players can destroy their enemies.
21:31<Eddi|zuHause>maybe that is because they don't WANT to do that?
21:31<Tirili>There should be a game mode that allows them to do so
21:32<Eddi|zuHause>a few years ago someone hosted a "cutthroat" server, where you could use every trick in the book to spoil your competitor's fun. but even on those servers, people often played "normal"
21:37<TheStevens>Eddi|zuHause: Australia exports stuff for a few years, then that industry goes out of business
21:37<TheStevens>classic openttd logic
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---Logclosed Thu Feb 20 00:00:00 2014