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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-03-01

---Logopened Sat Mar 01 00:00:26 2014
00:00<Gallomimia>not loading anymore. i see a black screen
00:00<Flygon>Urf, that's annoying >_<
00:00<Flygon>It's really hard to explain signalling with just words and screenshots
00:01<Gallomimia>try something that is "not-livestream"
00:01<Flygon>I lack anything else x:
00:01<Flygon>join.me is... not very good
00:01<Flygon>And I've never used Twitch TV
00:02<Gallomimia>there's more reasons to hate livestream and flash other than they take pains to prevent you from downloading/recording what you're viewing and they're not open source'd
00:02<Gallomimia>something wrong with openVNC in view only mode?
00:02<Flygon>openVNC?
00:02<Gallomimia>yay it's a hockey ad!
00:02<Gallomimia>open-virtual-network-computing
00:02<Gallomimia>a standard nearly as old as irc
00:03<Gallomimia>at least the hockey ad froze
00:03<Flygon>Hm
00:03<Flygon>Didn't think of that
00:03<Gallomimia>do you think it's my connection? that's not normal for me
00:04<Flygon>It's possible. We'd need to do an isolation test
00:04<Flygon>Anyone else here?
00:04<Gallomimia>oh haha! i'm on the wrong wifi network
00:04<Flygon>O_o
00:04<Gallomimia>that's annoying as hell.
00:05<Gallomimia>my linux desktop is going fast and working great. couldn't figure out why my wireless laptop is gimp'ing out
00:06<Flygon>Arf, sorry x:
00:07<Gallomimia>i'm sorry too. you're running windows :(
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00:08<Flygon>But which?
00:08<Flygon>...nvm, Start Menu gives it away
00:09<Gallomimia>i'm honestly not well versed in the flavors of windows. they all taste like nightshade to me
00:09<Flygon>Anyway, what again was it that you're uncertain about with regarding to two track railways?
00:09<Gallomimia>one way signalling
00:09<Flygon>Can you see where I'm zoomed in to?
00:10<Gallomimia>yeah
00:10<Gallomimia>3 tracks
00:10<Gallomimia>one split
00:10<Flygon>The split is actually a merge
00:10<Gallomimia>is this block signals?
00:10<Flygon>The block signals are the ones with just two arms
00:10<Flygon>Er
00:10<Flygon>one arms
00:10<Flygon>The ones with two arms are the one way ones
00:10<Flygon>They both perform essentially the same task
00:11<Gallomimia>oh. semaphor path signals
00:11<Flygon>Except the one way signals allow a train to proceed if there's another in the same 'block', whereas block don't
00:11<Flygon>I just use the block ones because they look cooler on one-way paths
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00:12<Flygon>The ones with the two arms without the sign on them can be passed from behind
00:12<Gallomimia>i've yet to have enough trains to want such an intricate network. i'll have to muck something up fiercely to find out i think
00:12<Flygon>You do
00:12<Flygon>x3
00:12<Flygon>I only got here through trial, error, traffic jams, and train crashes
00:12<Gallomimia>that's a big damn town
00:12<Gallomimia>have you a bunch of gfs?
00:13<Flygon>You'd love my Europe scenario
00:13<Flygon>Lemme just launch the OTTD Nightly I used for it
00:13<Flygon>Unless it'll load in this one...
00:13<Gallomimia>mm'scured
00:13<Flygon>Oh wow, it actually loaded
00:14<Gallomimia>playing more than one game at a time :) that's interesting
00:14<Flygon>Tada
00:14<Gallomimia>this raises 100x more questions than it answers ><
00:14<Gallomimia>for example, how do you make towns grow :P
00:15<Flygon>I managed to make Helsinki not only absorb such suburbs as Riihimaki, but absorb half of Finland :B
00:15<Flygon>Uh
00:15<Flygon>Well
00:15<Flygon>My stratergy is to build a bus network
00:15<Gallomimia>jeeze
00:15<Flygon>Or a tram network
00:15<Flygon>Have at least 3 stations, and have them go in a radial route
00:15<Flygon>Lemme find an example
00:15<Gallomimia>around in a circle?
00:15<Flygon>Yes
00:15<Gallomimia>like... around the city.
00:15<Flygon>See thiis town, for example with the trams?
00:15<Flygon>Yep
00:16<Flygon>Excuse me if the game is rather choppy
00:16<Gallomimia>oh ya perfect
00:16<Gallomimia>it's rather fast actually
00:16<Gallomimia>but blurry
00:16<Flygon>I have almost 4,000 Trams and over 1,500 ships
00:16<Flygon>Er, almost 1,500
00:16<Flygon>This's CPU taxing
00:16<Flygon>My MOUSE lags :D
00:16<Gallomimia>200m pounds? i thought the limit was 20m
00:16<Flygon>Nope
00:17<Flygon>And this's Euros
00:17<Gallomimia>neat
00:17<Flygon>Ended up stopping on this game
00:17<Flygon>Because FRISS wasn't quite compatible with the replacement bridge set >_<
00:17<Gallomimia>yeah i'm struggling with the complexity of my second game
00:18<Gallomimia>i decided to start on a map of 2048x
00:18<Flygon>Also, somehow it disabled Maglev after I got it
00:18<Gallomimia>it's super big
00:18<Flygon>Yeah, the maps I've shown you are both 2048x
00:18<Gallomimia>i struggle just to keep up with the vast number of industry closures
00:18<Flygon>Oh, trust me
00:18<Gallomimia>only been playing it for like 15 years game time
00:18<Flygon>Me too
00:19<Gallomimia>and i have a ton of cash now, just getting off the ground
00:19<Flygon>This Europe one's had 140 years
00:19<Gallomimia>but i'm overwhelmed with the idea of "where do i go now"
00:19<Flygon>What I do is
00:19<Flygon>Is I build an extensive interlinking passenger network
00:19<Gallomimia>i started in 2040 so i could just start with maglev
00:19<Gallomimia>just trying it out. it's neat
00:19<Gallomimia>but almost too fast, right?
00:20<Flygon>x3 Mhmm
00:20<Flygon>The focus can easily become declogging stations
00:20<Flygon>Than getting to them fast enough
00:20<Gallomimia>i've only got 3 trains :P
00:21<Gallomimia>and i'm struggling between the idea of mixing the car types and focusing on given cargo routes
00:21<Gallomimia>keep them local or run around to every place on the map?
00:21<Flygon>I generally keep stuff local
00:22<Flygon>To run all over the map is most economically worth it when you got the cash flow to afford the initial financial hit
00:22<Gallomimia>well, one train is too much to handle local industries of a given type
00:22<Gallomimia>so, does this mean i need to run with mixed cars, or shorten my trains or...
00:22<Gallomimia>the questions are endless!
00:24<Flygon>Welcome to the world of Economics!
00:24<Flygon>But if the volumes are very low
00:24<Flygon>And distance very short
00:25<Flygon>My personal opinion?
00:25<Flygon>Just run trucks
00:26<Gallomimia>but.... flying cars! floating trains ><
00:28<Gallomimia>definitely need to get into all the various addons and expansions and so on
00:28<Gallomimia>but i feel like i should get a firm grasp on what i have in front of me first
00:29*Flygon nod
00:29<Flygon>Don't be afraid to start small, alright?
00:29<Flygon>Every company does
00:29<Flygon>Unless you're Hendikins...
00:30<Gallomimia>i've found the secret to vast unflappable profits early on is oil ships, with water on 2 sides of a big map, it amounts to 3-4 hundred grand per year nearly as fast as you can get them built and set up
00:32<Gallomimia>there's just dozens of platforms and a refinery every screen or so
00:33<Gallomimia>dunno how i lucked out with that but there's lots of cash to be had. soon as i got off my train addiction and went to build ships the cash flow issues and the bank loan evaporated
00:33<Flygon>Yeah, ships take forever
00:33<Flygon>But they print guranteed money!
00:34<Flygon>Interestingly, the Iceland map I got
00:34<Flygon>The game only sets new refineries a certain distance on land from the edge of the border
00:34<Flygon>But it's all water on this map...
00:34<Gallomimia>what the hell are those oblique red lines?
00:34<Flygon>Cue the map having just ONE token refinery kept by the game
00:34<Flygon>Uh, the red lines show passenger load
00:34<Flygon>Red means I'm doing a shithouse job
00:34<Flygon>Green generally means good
00:34<Flygon>White means there's no riders
00:34<Gallomimia>that an addon?
00:35<Flygon>It's part of Cargodist
00:35<Gallomimia>i thought so. i think i should put that in straight away
00:35<Flygon>Only in the betas and nightlies atm
00:36<Gallomimia>meh. maybe i can wait a bit
00:36<Gallomimia>i'd best take a walk. obligations and such
00:37<Flygon>Have fun
00:38<Gallomimia>if that was what i was going to do i'd stay here and launch ttd again :P
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00:39<Flygon>Oh x3
00:51<Flygon>Fastforward button
00:51<Flygon>The ultimate in bank loaning
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01:50<Flygon>Somehow I decided the most logical method of building a railway line from one end of Iceland to the other is through the townless desolate snowy mountain range. Instead of the bit with paying passengers.
01:50<Flygon>gj Fly
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03:56<andythenorth>o/
03:56<JVassie>o/
04:00<Gallomimia>haha flygon :) that's funny
04:01<Flygon>Gallomimia: This game is haaard D:
04:05<JVassie>What effect will setting the daylength have on timetabling?
04:06<Flygon>Depends on if you observe DST
04:06*Flygon badumpish
04:08<JVassie>>.>
04:10<JVassie>is it essentially just a multiplier for the amount of real time an action takes?
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04:13<JVassie>and does that directly affect the maximum ticks of an individual waiting/loading time?
04:14<Gallomimia>right. back to one way signals. they make trains only ever go down a track in one direction right?
04:14<JVassie>In normal operation and without manual intervention, yes
04:15<JVassie>You can manually make trains pass red signals, and manually make trains pass signals in the opposite direction
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04:15<JVassie>to the potential detriment of your passengers lives of course :P
04:16<Gallomimia>i've forgotten how to do that. and yeah i have no desire for it :P
04:17<Gallomimia>the only time i've seen a horrific crash on train tracks in this game the first action i took after was to load the latest savefile
04:17<JVassie>the little signal icon with a red cross over it on the vehicle window
04:18<Gallomimia>that should be all i need to know about them to change my network to single direction traffic
04:18<JVassie>you will likely also want to look at pre-signals and path-based signals too
04:19<Gallomimia>one final question. i have a junction that's irk'ing me. it's a T junction, with very wide 45 degree angle turns for the turns that matter. the trains never go straight thru. always it diverts to the bottom of the T part and takes a hard 90 back to where it was going. what's the problem?
04:21<JVassie>without a picture, it is hard to say
04:22<Gallomimia>JVassie: i'm definitly sticking with only path signals. just trying to gather the pertinent info about them from the page with block and path signals made my head spin
04:22<Gallomimia>want me to catch the trains doing it?
04:22<JVassie>probably wont matter, but can do
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04:23<Gallomimia>game's paused right now till i can determine the next set of tracks to lay. so i got one without a train involved
04:25<Gallomimia>hm. where'll i put this shot at
04:28<JVassie>imgur?
04:29<Gallomimia>http://tinypic.com/r/2yv82h5/8
04:29<Gallomimia>seems to have even turned out okay
04:30<JVassie>oh, this is before use of one way signals?
04:30<Gallomimia>i see a problem with switching to the proper track from the spur line to the northeast side
04:30<Gallomimia>yes
04:30<Gallomimia>i'm going to lay more track and then change the signals and then buy more trains
04:30<JVassie>well, if coming from the north east to the south west
04:30<JVassie>ie straight through the t junction
04:30<Gallomimia>wish i could run the game in slower mode
04:31<JVassie>it will choose to use the long way towards dondwood west
04:31<JVassie>and then 90 degree turn back to the mainline
04:31<Gallomimia>yes, why?
04:31<JVassie>because that route has no signals
04:31<Gallomimia>oh
04:31<JVassie>I do believe the pathfinder prefers routes without signals
04:31<Gallomimia>that's simple enough :P
04:32<Gallomimia>given that there's the option for track switching at each bend it probably should have signals. i'll give it a revamp when i change it all to one way lines
04:33<JVassie>a good plan :)
04:33<Flygon>You know you're too used to OpenTTD when you keep rightclicking to move webpages
04:34<Gallomimia>well thanks for pointing that out. i guess i should take most of those track switching options out since it's supposed to be one way only from now on :P
04:34<JVassie>I tend to pick a direction based on what side my trains drive on
04:34<JVassie>so the signals are on the 'outside' of a pair of tracks
04:35<Gallomimia>hmmm have to think about that. most stations are built with 2 or more platforms and go in and reverse back out
04:35<JVassie>that works too
04:35<JVassie>can still have single direction tracks leading to the stations
04:35<Gallomimia>one way on the main lines, two way till the next switch over
04:36<Gallomimia>and with the train waiting to enter stopped on the other side of the switch there will always be a way out for the train leaving
04:37<Gallomimia>not in that busy hoopla of a monstrosity. but everywhere else sure :)
04:38<JVassie>http://imgur.com/oP0kgCK
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04:38<JVassie>basic junction and basic station entrance with PBS
04:48<Gallomimia>what now there's an option to allow construction during pause??
04:49<Flygon>Advanced Options iirc
04:50<Flygon>I wish they'd fix the alignment error with that track type x.x
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04:52<Wolf01>hi hi
04:54<Gallomimia>yes i'm just going thru all the options and seen it. i'm still deciding whether i want to cheat that much...
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05:07<Gallomimia>hi Wolf01 how's today? (tonight?)
05:07<Gallomimia>say... do lorry stops with a terminus make it easier for the truck to turn round?
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05:10<Wolf01>rainy-sunny-rainy again
05:12<Gallomimia>glad for you
05:12<Gallomimia>dropped to below -20C here suddenly
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05:16<Gallomimia>possible to turn names off in the world map? there's so many it's totally unreadable, and obscurse anything else on the map
05:17<Gallomimia>oh i found it :( i feel sheepish
05:17<@Alberth>some are quite hidden :)
05:18<Gallomimia>there's a button just for that. out of only 10 buttons. i hunted for this option and gave up presumptuously
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05:41<Gallomimia>is there an easy way to remove signals the way ctrl click removes rails? seems to only change the signals.... to.... one way?
05:42<JVassie>Gallomimia, press the r key
05:42<JVassie>and it will enable bulldozer
05:43<Gallomimia>that's the grossness i was hoping to avoid. thanks tho
05:43<Gallomimia>oh i see. it only nukes signals. hot damn :)
05:51<Eddi|zuHause><JVassie> What effect will setting the daylength have on timetabling? <-- daylength has no effect on timetables, except possibly that the rounding is getting too rough when converting ticks to days
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>internally, everything is in ticks
05:54<Gallomimia>blah. i'll convert my rail signals to one way tomorrow. sleep now. doing it with no sleep is gonna get me a crashed train
05:54<Gallomimia>thanks to everyone for answering questions so far. g'night
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05:56<@Alberth>gn Gallomimia
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06:08<JVassie>Eddi|zuHause, so despite the display of time passing slower with a higher daylength, those times wont be adhered to in the timetables?
06:08<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: timetable times are always based on ticks, if you display days, then these days are automatically scaled inverse to daylength
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06:09<JVassie>so daylength 1, ticks/day 74, it takes about 2 seconds real time per minute ingame
06:10<JVassie>daylength 1, tick/day 134, it takes 4 seconds real time per minute ingame
06:10<JVassie>daylength 2, tick/day 134, it takes 8 seconds real time per minute ingame
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06:12<JVassie>oh
06:12<JVassie>hmm, getting confused between ticks/day and ticks/minute
06:12<JVassie>ticks/day not configurable
06:13<JVassie>default value for ticks/minute also happens to be 74 though
06:13<JVassie>mental block >.<
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: in your example, the daylength 2 case would also be 4 seconds
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>days and minutes are completely independent
06:16<JVassie>im usign the departureboard patch
06:16<JVassie>which is where the ticks/minute settign comes from
06:18<JVassie>unfortunately though I'm not aware of how the depboards patch changes the timetable internals though
06:20<JVassie>or I suppose, probably wisest to assume depboards doesnt know about daylength
06:21<JVassie>basic problem I'm trying to resolve is slowing down the passage of time ingame
06:21<JVassie>specifically when it comes to the timetabling of trains
06:23<JVassie>any suggestions?
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06:33<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: set ticks/minute so your longest round-trip time is a whole fraction of 24 hours (e.g. 12 hours, 4 hours, ...)
06:34<JVassie>hmm
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: daylength changes how often you get new vehicle developments, and has no influence on timetables
06:34<JVassie>did some testing
06:34<JVassie>daylength royally screws departure boards
06:36<Wolf01>daylength is a plague :(
06:39<JVassie>Eddi|zuHause, when you say longest round-trip time, do you mean over all vehicles? Or that each vehicle's entire schedule should be a whole fraction of 24 hours?
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: this is not necessary at all, but it makes synchronizing different routes easier
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06:46<JVassie>well, I'm trying to emulate realism somewhat
06:47<JVassie>so schedules are generally going to be every x-minutes
06:47<JVassie>between 10 and 120 I guess
06:47<JVassie>so to make that work the entire schedule would be a multiple of the x-minute repetition
06:47<JVassie>problems to work around though
06:48<JVassie>are 255 max orders limit
06:48<JVassie>and 65535 max ticks per order
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06:49<JVassie>less of an issue if I dont try to factor in 24 hour timetables
06:50<JVassie>but I would like to try
06:51<Eddi|zuHause>you won't be able to change those limits
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>65k ticks are almost two standard years
06:53<JVassie>I guess it is not as simple as changing the var type? :P
06:53<JVassie>typedef uint16 DateFract;
06:53<JVassie>for the max ticks I think?
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>unless you want to simulate a day/night schedule with several-hour-long waiting times, you should never need those
06:53<JVassie><JVassie> less of an issue if I dont try to factor in 24 hour timetables
06:53<JVassie><JVassie> but I would like to try
06:54<JVassie>if it really is impossible, then I will have to forget day/night/24 hour
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>just make your 24 hours shorter :)
06:55<JVassie>that a 'day' cycle last says 12 hours you mean?
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>if you leave it at default 74ticks/minute, then an hour is about 2 months, and 2 years is 12 hours
06:56<JVassie>part of what I want to achieve means using the departure boards
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>if you set it to 37ticks/minute, 2 years is 24 hours
06:56<JVassie>so I dont need to worry about days/years of ingame time
06:56<JVassie>only hours/minutes
06:57<JVassie>the problem with reducing the ticks/minute is that the speed of vehicles then becomes a prohibiting factor in the trains/hour a piece of track can throughput
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>at 74ticks/minute, 65k ticks is about 14 hours
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>which defines your maximum waiting time
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>that should suffice for any reasonable 24h timetable
06:59<JVassie>oh for sure
06:59<JVassie>I think 8 hours is likely to be the maximum needed waiting time on any single order
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>you're gonna drown in passengers anyway :)
07:00<JVassie>odd as it sounds, all I want to achieve is realistic timetabling :P
07:00<JVassie>passenger numbers/destinations/ratings aren't on my radar as much
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>for a reasomably "realistic" 24h timetable you need to modify station rating and production (rush hour and night)
07:01<JVassie>you can simulate rush hour and night easily enough with the schedules
07:01<JVassie>more trains/hour during rush hour
07:01<JVassie>and none at night
07:01<JVassie>at peak times for example, I'd want to be able to get a train every 3 or 4 minutes into a through platform
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: yes, but that is backwards. the rush-hour is not defined by more trains running, but by more passengers wanting to ride on trains :p
07:04<JVassie>haha indeed
07:04<JVassie>odd as it may sound
07:04<JVassie>the visual representation of more passengers isnt as easily achievable as a departure board though :P
07:05<JVassie>(with more trains)
07:08<JVassie>for example, platform 10 at clapham junction today
07:08<JVassie>1158, 1201, 1205, 1209, 1212, 1216, 1221, 1224, 1228, 1231, 1235, 1239, 1242, 1246, 1251, 1254
07:08<JVassie>16 trains in an hour
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>11/12 is usually not "rush-hour" :p
07:09<JVassie>well yeah
07:09<JVassie>neither is saturday generally
07:09<JVassie>perhaps a bad example
07:09<JVassie>but 16 tph at weekend lunch time
07:10<JVassie>it happens in real life was I think my point :P
07:10<JVassie>and therefore something I wanted to try to simulate ingame
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>this probably depends on regional habits, but typical rush-hour times are something like 6-8 and 15-18
07:11<JVassie>unfortunately ingame you cant really do departign and arriving in the same minute
07:12<JVassie>at least I dont think
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>yes, you can set the exact amount of ticks.
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>but one loading step is 40 ticks, so waiting time is always a multiple of that
07:13<JVassie>useful to know
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>actually, it would make sense to use that as base for your minutes
07:13<JVassie>in order to help the simulation, having a newgrf where vehicles loaded in a single (or a double) step would help
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07:14<Eddi|zuHause>ships and planes have faster loading steps i think
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: in a typical rush-hour network, loading times are a main source of delays
07:15<JVassie>if you set a train to stay for 0 minutes, what does the game try to do?
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>0 ticks counts as "not timetabled"
07:16<JVassie>who wants to simulate delays? :P
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>so don't do that.
07:16<JVassie>mmm
07:16<JVassie>so 1 minute is the minimum
07:16<JVassie>so if it was 80 ticks per minute
07:16<JVassie>thats 2 loading steps
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>but you could set the ticks as "1 tick short of a minute", then it will display as 0 minutes
07:17<JVassie>the change time box gives the input as minutes I think
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>but you have to add that 1 tick to the travel time, otherwise you get rounding issues with your synchronisation
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>that is a setting
07:18<JVassie>ah hah
07:18<JVassie>that might just be the key
07:18<JVassie>as long as I just use departure boards to display in minutes
07:18<JVassie>and do all other calculations in ticks
07:19<JVassie>it might work
07:22<JVassie>still doesnt get around the tph problem though
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>tph?
07:23<JVassie>trains per hour
07:24<JVassie>basically, that unless the ticks/minute is sufficiently high, then it takes too many minutes per train
07:24<Flygon>Just a note, 3-5 minute off-peak freqs happen in some areas of Japan
07:25<Flygon>And some Metro systems, even in Australia, have some lines (Tram or Train) operating on such frequenies. Not on a Saturday, though. :P
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>real networks typically have 5 minutes between, 3 minutes in extreme cases, and shorter intervals need moving-block-signals or other magic
07:25<Flygon>Yea, 5 is the most optimistic here. 3 encounters issues with both not enough trains available and capacity (as Metro found out when they tried publishing an ambitious timetable...)
07:26<JVassie>well, like you saw above
07:26<JVassie>clapham junction is gettign traisn through in 3 minute intervals
07:26<JVassie>*getting trains
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>the S-Bahn trunk line in Munich has 30 trains per hour
07:27<JVassie>damn
07:27<JVassie>2 platforms each direction at the Hbf isnt it?
07:27<JVassie>on the tief bit
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>(they do use some magic signalling)
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07:28<JVassie>oh no, it isn just 1 platform each way
07:29<JVassie>thats some tight scheduling
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07:32<Eddi|zuHause>JVassie: i think they have 1 track per direction, but platforms on both sides to speed up loading/unloading
07:32<JVassie>the 'spanish solution' wikipedia calls it :P
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07:32<Flygon>(I should note that Trams only get insanely good frequencies here due to relying both purely on slow speeds and zero signalling in dense areas... so basically. They're high frequency busses :B)
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>when i was in munich, i didn't use the S-Bahn though, so i don't really know
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: trams are typically drive-on-sight instead of drive-on-signal
07:33<Flygon>Exactly
07:33<Flygon>Tram signals only exist here in very exemptional cases
07:33<Flygon>Such as level crossings, directions, and specific standard traffic signals
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07:34<Eddi|zuHause>they exist here on overland lines which exceed 50km/h
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>but they stole the cabling too often, so they just downgraded the line to 50km/h and discontinued the signals
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07:35<Flygon>"Stole the cabling"?
07:35<JVassie>prevalent problem in EU
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>copper is just too valuable
07:36<Flygon>(Drive on sight here operates on up to 80-90km/h, no problems. Though, those lines have long enough distances without being at-grade that it's basically a trainline. Amusingly, this means they have a higher top speed than the Xtraps usually do...)
07:36<Flygon>Oh. Right. Yeah.
07:36<JVassie>endless issues in the UK with signalling problems because vandals have stolen the cabling
07:36<Flygon>Here, we're gradually replacing everything with aluminium (for overhead lines. Did I mention people try to seal 1500V live lines?) and Fibre Optics
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: people even steal 15kV and 25kV wires :)
07:37<Flygon>Point is, there's a special type of stupid for anyone pushing over 500V
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>but that usually ends deadly if they are not professionals
07:38<JVassie>indeed
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think there are trams that go over 80km/h here. there are tram/train hybrids which go faster if in train mode
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07:44<Flygon>We have had individual Trams go over 110km/h here
07:44<Flygon>iirc, the PCC/W-Class hybrid that MMTB tested around the 1950s and 1960s
07:44<Flygon>Unsure if their direct successor (Z1 and Z2-class) have been tested @ over 90 though
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07:44<Flygon>No real point really. Stops too close together.
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>well i posted this before, but maybe it's relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5hkR-IAnwQ :)
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08:17<andythenorth>@seen pikka
08:17<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 3 days, 14 hours, 49 minutes, and 57 seconds ago: <Pikka> I'll grab the new alpha anon
08:28<@Alberth>false, he left 5 minutes before you arrived, andy
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>actually Pokka is still here :)
08:29<andythenorth>pokkamon
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08:42<JVassie>hmm, so Eddi|zuHause, if i timetable in ticks, and I set ticks/min to 160 for example, I can set a stop for 80 ticks right?
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>yes
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>though at 160 your maximum wait time would be just under 7 hours
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08:54<JVassie>perhaps workable
08:54<JVassie>ok
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09:09<Eddi|zuHause>you can also chain two wait orders, especially at a terminal station, where the train immediately is at the destination if it just turned around
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>terminus
09:14<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26384 trunk/src/string.cpp (2014-03-01 14:14:41 UTC)
09:14<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5924]: Return correct values from ICU iterators in case of leading or trailing whitespace
09:26<JVassie>hmm good idea Eddi|zuHause :D
09:26<JVassie>or if its in a siding somewhere
09:26<JVassie>i'd never thought of that
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>it must be end of the track, otherwise the train leaves and tries to make a loop to get back to the station
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it also works with stop at beginning/end of platform
09:31<JVassie>will have to try that
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10:14<Pokka>does it
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10:15<Eddi|zuHause>obviously not.
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10:58<JVassie>Didnt get to trying it yet
10:58<JVassie>the perils of multitasking
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11:47<andythenorth>o/
11:49<Taede>o/
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12:16<alluke>wow
12:16<alluke>iron horse has train car with two cargos
12:16<alluke>combined pax/mail
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12:19<Eddi|zuHause>yes. articulated vehicles can do that
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12:54<alluke>that car aint articulated
13:02<frosch123>not everything is what it looks like :p
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13:19<andythenorth>indeed
13:19<andythenorth>and not everything shows cargo in the depot view :(
13:19<andythenorth>and not everything can be accurately drag-and-dropped in depot view either
13:22<frosch123>yeah, someone needs to code "draw artic vehicle at mouse cursor"
13:23<andythenorth>I assumed it was something I was doing wrong
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>what's wrong with it?
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>i think the gap between the vehicles that you drop your vehicle in is only the first part of the articulated vehicle, so it shouldn't be too short
13:26<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: have you actually tested with IH? o_O
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>no, but i have tested stuff in CETS
13:26<andythenorth>dragging accurately is near-impossible in IH (I use TTD base set with small buttons)
13:26<andythenorth>I assume it's because offsets are borked still
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>the cursor takes on the sprite of the first vehicle part, and the gap in the new vehicle chain for dropping into is much shorter than the vehicle sprite
13:27<andythenorth>that would make sense
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>i use a special GUI sprite for the first vehicle part specifically for dragging in depots. because dragging invisible sprites is somewhat of a hassle :p
13:30<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: that part was fixed 1.5 years ago or so
13:30<frosch123>the gap for dragging is right
13:30<frosch123>just the cursor is lagging
13:32<andythenorth>...my favourite features recently are all ui fixes...
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>indeed, looks better now :)
13:34<andythenorth>Eddi's suggestion about showing road tile direction on construction is a good one
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>that's like 5 years old, and not even mine?
13:35<andythenorth>not implemented though is it :)
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly convinced there were sprites on the forum
13:36<andythenorth>if there aren't I could draw them
13:37<andythenorth>I keep failing at patches though :P
13:40<frosch123>yup, there are sprites
13:41<frosch123>should be in my todo bookmarks :p
13:44<frosch123>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=47192
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26385 trunk/src/lang/swedish.txt (2014-03-01 18:45:10 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>swedish - 6 changes by Joel_A
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13:59<Eddi|zuHause>the second set of sprites seems better
13:59<frosch123>it also has trams
14:01<frosch123>it does not have half tiles though
14:01<frosch123>single road bits
14:01<frosch123>hmm, it has
14:02<frosch123>i only counted sprites, but actually it has only the short ones, and no long road sporites
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14:07<frosch123>hmm, i should look up widelands hotkey
14:09<frosch123>uh, it does not seem to have any which i do not already know
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>the only hotkeys i ever used were c,s and space
14:14<frosch123>yes, i was hoping for a hotkey for dismantle
14:24<Supercheese>Do we have drag&drop newobjects yet?
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14:35<andythenorth>hmm
14:35<andythenorth>fix IH, or keep trying to beat SV in a game? o_O
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14:57<andythenorth>did I cause that? o_O
14:57<Wolf01>no, it was __ln__ for sure
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>what do they say about all play and no work?
15:04<andythenorth>keeps you from getting old?
15:10*andythenorth fixes stuff
15:11<@Alberth>andy, did you change chips 1.4.0 not to display the most cargo at the stations?
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15:12<andythenorth>no
15:12<andythenorth>I wouldn't know how tbh :)
15:12<andythenorth>nfo stations are a world of their own
15:12<@Alberth>then it's a bug :p
15:12<andythenorth>it's amazing that there are so many station sets
15:12<andythenorth>station display is a mess :P
15:13<@Alberth>ok :)
15:26<andythenorth>IH alpha-3 released
15:26<andythenorth>now I can do something less useful
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15:49<andythenorth>hmm
15:50<andythenorth>frosch123: would reloading newgrfs cause SV to change the target cargo?
15:51<frosch123>if you change cargo ids :p
15:51<andythenorth>not knowingly
15:51<andythenorth>didn't change FIRS, just IH
15:51<andythenorth>but eh, all bets are off
15:52<frosch123>well, unlikely, else firs would be completely broken :p
15:52<andythenorth>loaded some bug fixes :P
15:52<andythenorth>something caused SV to switch cargo
15:52<andythenorth>nvm
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15:54<frosch123>oh, i forgot to build a stone mason
15:55<andythenorth>?
15:55<frosch123>i ran out of marble columns
15:55<andythenorth>oh some other game :P
15:59<Wolf01>gnomoria?
15:59<frosch123>widelands
16:00<frosch123>btw. our gaelic translator is also involved with widelands
16:02<Wolf01>looks nice
16:04<Gallomimia>what's the roadmap of release of the new beta version look like? any kind of schedule for you guys or just as it happens?
16:05<frosch123>it has always been "just as it happens"
16:05<Gallomimia>also, i'm putting one way signals on my tracks right now. is it recommended i start a long segment with a signal, or just before junctions?
16:05<Gallomimia>alright good to know
16:06<frosch123>if you use path signals, always leave enough room for a whole train behind each junction without any signals
16:06<frosch123>so if the train has to stop, it does not block the junction
16:06<Gallomimia>yeah i've seen how that causes problems for sure
16:07<Gallomimia>the game i'm playing right now is too much train and not enough truck and transfer
16:07<Gallomimia>i don't feel like trying the latter till i dive into the beta with that.... cargodist
16:08<andythenorth>hmm
16:08*andythenorth really has to learn cdist
16:08<Gallomimia>i think i'll do that once i get this computer changed over to run off a raid instead of the single drive
16:08<Gallomimia>and then i think i'll download the source and read it.... C++ right?
16:09<frosch123>andythenorth: you have to learn to service your stations properly :p
16:09<andythenorth>and do complicated routing
16:10<andythenorth>I've tried it in three games
16:10<andythenorth>I'm not really smart enough to use it though
16:10<Gallomimia>that's bold of you to admit
16:11<frosch123>Gallomimia: it's kind of required for a boss
16:12<frosch123>a boss who thinks he is smarter than his employees is likely no good boss
16:12<andythenorth>'like a boss'
16:12<andythenorth>or 'like a bus' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkTw7J-hGmg
16:14<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: your prophecy is still holding
16:21<Gallomimia>HAH. if you say so.... clearly you haven't met any of the bosses i know
16:22<Gallomimia>don't get me wrong, i agree that it's required. but clearly it's not since so many are getting away without it
16:24<frosch123>it kind of depends on the management level
16:24<frosch123>for those responsible for > 150 employees it does not matter anymore
16:25<frosch123>i was referring to management levels who actually manage employees
16:25<Gallomimia>the guy you work closely with. yeah
16:25<frosch123>not those who try to fool managers of other companies
16:26<Gallomimia>the popular qualification going around these days is to have been hit in the head with a brick at least three times :(
16:27<frosch123>well, that is not the worst thing if your main job is to hit other managers with a brick
16:27<Gallomimia>heh
16:30*andythenorth loves sea-level canals
16:31*frosch123 is worried that andy uses them to run river ships on sea
16:33<andythenorth>:P
16:33<andythenorth>I use them to build sea-level airports and train stations
16:37<andythenorth>stupid noise limit
16:38<Supercheese>Use OGFX+ airports, disable noise limit
16:39<Supercheese>and/or date limits
16:45<Gallomimia>uh... stations have signals built in for leaving trains right? what can i assume about those?
16:46<frosch123>they do not really
16:46<frosch123>it's more like reversing trains have a built-in path signal
16:46<frosch123>so in terminal stations you can skip building path signals on the station side
16:46<frosch123>but in ro-ro you cannot
16:47<Supercheese>terminus stations have their share of problems, though
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16:52<Gallomimia>i think that means i'll have a problem. very congested area. too many junctions and stations all close together
16:52<Gallomimia>oh well. this game is a learning experience
16:53<Gallomimia>i think i'll signal it as best i can and see what happens
16:53<Gallomimia>maybe a bypass tunnel is in order. first i wanna load it up with trains and see how bad it gets
16:53<Supercheese>I find path signals placed in "safe stopping" places cover a multitude of sins
16:54<Gallomimia>alas there's no safe stopping places here. there's 2 t junctions close together, a bag station, and a ro-ro. almost nowhere for a train to stop in that mess.
16:55<Gallomimia>i think one way to fix it would be to move one of the T junctions over to make an X junction
17:01<andythenorth>good night
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17:09<frosch123>night
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17:38<Gallomimia>i wish you could set trains to uncouple cars and switch loadout
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17:43<Eddi|zuHause>it's open source, do it! :p
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>(this is probably the hardest thing you could do with the game)
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17:46<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> i ran out of marble columns <-- i usually do that even with a stonemason :)
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>by some weird random-ism i almost always get imperium when starting random
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18:03<__ln__>http://www.leipzig-fernsehen.de/Aktuell/Leipzig/Artikel/907959/ICE-rammt-Prellbock-am-Leipziger-Hauptbahnhof-/
18:03<Gallomimia>Eddi|zuHause: you're right! i was actually thinking it might be easier to make the game support multicore cpu's than do that!
18:04<__ln__>oh, it wasn't exactly news
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19:08<Gallomimia>:O why come i not hear of oftc before??
19:10<__ln__>you mean "how come"
19:11<Gallomimia>indeed, but i said it that way to express exasperation and shock and surprize and squeee
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19:23<Wolf01>'night
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21:43<Flygon>Am I the only person that finds it difficult to do urban expansion in areas that are also scitter scattered with freight railway lines?
22:03<Gallomimia>i'm sure i would find it difficult if i kinda knew what that meant
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22:09<Flygon>I'll have to send a .sav :P
22:09<Flygon>Basically: Make cities bigger while having integrated transport
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22:29<Flygon>I never thought I'd consider replacing Rail with Road to alleviate rail congestion for freight vs passenger
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22:59<Gallomimia>that's pretty much the reason i played simcity2k with subways right from the off
23:06<Flygon>Unfortunately
23:06<Flygon>OTTD lacks such flexible subways
23:06<Flygon>If it had them
23:06<Flygon>This would be INFINITELY easier
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---Logclosed Sun Mar 02 00:00:30 2014