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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-03-02

---Logopened Sun Mar 02 00:00:30 2014
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01:42<Afdal>Thanks for the 4096-tile map support guys <3
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02:15<Flygon>I'm with Afdal
02:16<Flygon>Now if I didn't somehow find a way to be forced to couple multiple UP 4000's together D:
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03:32<peter1139>I never played with 1024 or 2048 maps, heh...
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04:11<Gallomimia>what an odd evening... fell asleep at 8pm and woke up at 12:30am :/
04:14<Gallomimia>hey Flygon how fast is the cpu in the computer you use to play ottd? i've been thinking a lot on how you managed to overpower it with a .sav and many thousands of vehicles
04:14<Flygon>1.6GHz Dual Core
04:14<Flygon>Core 2 Duo
04:14<Gallomimia>that's the speed of my laptop too
04:15<Gallomimia>i've been reading some source files. i see that there's some .cpp file regarding threads. but yet i don't ever see ottd use more than one core
04:16<Flygon>It doesn't
04:17<Gallomimia>can't be that hard to get it to multicore when it's so many independent calculations
04:17<Rubidium_>not again...
04:18<Gallomimia>only time i've seen it hit 100% on mine was for map gen. that would be hard to get it to multicore on
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04:18<Flygon>The whole multicore debate
04:18<Gallomimia>nice :)
04:18<Flygon>They're sick of users asking for multithreaded support
04:18<Flygon>Due to it being genuinely painful to implement
04:18<Gallomimia>i'm not asking...
04:18<Flygon>The genre isn't conductive to it :P
04:19<Flygon>Sidenote: Over 90% of Mega Drive games are technically multithreaded :B
04:19<Flygon>(though, the Z80's usually just stuffed onto handling the sound driver instead of doing anything else)
04:20<Gallomimia>ohh damn. more than one thread?
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04:26<Rubidium_>that's why I said "not again..."
04:26<Rubidium_>and there's probably more, but this is the stuff I could find from myself in the forum in 5 minutes
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04:26<Gallomimia>oh man definitely stop bothering to search for it ><
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04:28<Rubidium_>and the wiki:
04:28<Rubidium_>having said that, there's plenty that already happens in separate cores
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04:29<Rubidium_>(sound, music, palette animation, pushing images to the video card, saving, cargo distribution calculations, network lookups)
04:30<peter1139>09:17 < Gallomimia> can't be that hard to get it to multicore when it's so many independent calculations
04:30<peter1139>^ they're not independent...
04:31<Flygon>I did just try saying that :P
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04:34<Gallomimia>shhhh reading
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04:35<Gallomimia>"Or, to put it another way, one woman can make one baby in nine months, but nine women cannot make a baby in one month." <----- :)
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04:36*Flygon thinks
04:36<Flygon>Depends on the species
04:37<Gallomimia>cite example please :O
04:37<Flygon>Can't, it's #openttd
04:37<Gallomimia>are any of them real or are they some kind of furry?
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04:37<Flygon>I don't know! :O
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04:38<Gallomimia>i thought the word "women" limited it pretty strongly to one species anyway
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04:38<Flygon>Yes, but uuuuuh...
04:38<Flygon>Ever seen Star Trek?
04:38<Flygon>Klingon Woman!
04:39<Gallomimia>yes i have. but a fantasy nonetheless
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04:40<Rubidium_>Flygon: Klingon females
04:40<Gallomimia>he's got a point ya know. i don't think i've ever heard klingons or ferengi refer to the other half of their species as "women"
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04:43<Gallomimia>anyway, i've finished reading what i'm gonna read and come to the conclusion that there's a different issue that i'd rather pay attention to: desync. why are the client and the server BOTH making the same calculations regarding pathfinding? why is it even possible for them to come up with a different answer?
04:43<Rubidium_>the answer of the latter is: because of a bug
04:44<Rubidium_>the answer to the former is: how much upload bandwidth do you have?
04:45<Rubidium_>the state changes quite significantly every tick. Basically all vehicles change every tick, and then there's the map that goes through changes too
04:45<Gallomimia>that's a lot of game-state data i guess
04:45<Rubidium_>sending those differences will be more taxing than just keeping the state at both sides
04:46<Xaroth|Work>more taxing in such a way that your pr0n streams will stutter if they didn't do it that way
04:46<Gallomimia>can you guestimate how much data goes into a standard game state?
04:48<Gallomimia>if it's taken that long the answer's no. i'll worry about it another day
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04:48<Rubidium_>number of map tiles * 9 + number of vehicles (that is wagons/engines/trucks/smoke plumes) * at least 100
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04:49<Gallomimia>just over one tick per second?
04:50<Gallomimia>yeah that's pretty serious
04:50<Rubidium_>well, the compressed game state (without caches) is the size of your savegame
04:51<Gallomimia>oh. that helps a lot
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04:51<Gallomimia>6M for an extra large map having very few vehicles
04:53<@Alberth>make a smaller map :)
04:53<Gallomimia>no the point is to consider the largest size of map. i heard 4x larger is available now?
04:54<Gallomimia>the map i am playing si 2048 square, they can be 4096 now?
04:55<Gallomimia>that's ~160MB just for the map tiles
04:55<Rubidium_>Gallomimia: in openttd.cfg change/set the savegame_format setting to none. Then it will store savegames uncompressed, and you could try to make a binary diff
04:56<Gallomimia>i'm just tossing numbers around for considering the problems i've mentioned
04:56<Rubidium_>@calc 4096*4096*9/1024/1024
04:56<@DorpsGek>Rubidium_: 144
04:57<Gallomimia>i think i need pizza.... then some breaking bad, then some ttd (as a player)
04:57<Gallomimia>and a monster drink!
04:57<Gallomimia>and i like your calc bot :)
04:58<Flygon>I want Pizza now
04:59<Gallomimia>yeah i gotta go buy it :/ back in 20
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05:25<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: have you tried HEQS trams for freight transport?
05:26<Flygon>Kinda wish I had used them
05:26<Flygon>Do they cooperate well with eGVTR...iknowistuffedtheacronymupsofarbutthefinalletteris-S?
05:29<Flygon>Dunno why I wasn't using them x.x
05:29<Flygon>And I know people'll give me crap over adding a GRF to an existing game. I know the risks. I already buggered up the start of the game anyway due to starting in 1950 instead of 1850...
05:30<Flygon>Luckily the rollback worked there.... shame about not having 100 years worth of fully functioning financial reports tho :p
05:30<Flygon>1943 atm
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>Gallomimia: well of course the multithread discussion is in multiple threads. :p
05:33<@Alberth>distributed decision algorithms are very complicated :p
05:34<SpComb^>openttd cluster edition
05:35<SpComb^>and if you run it on ten very expensive machines with dedicated infiniband interconnects, you might get close to the performance of a single machine with the non-parallel implementation?
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>well there were mild multithread tests in the past, which ran like 20% faster on multicore and 10% slower on single core
05:36<@Alberth>better run 10 independent instances on those machines, much easier :)
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>which at that time was decided not worth the hassle
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, to get useful multithreading you probably have to write the program from scratch
05:39<Xaroth|Work>would be a fun project
05:39<Xaroth|Work>.. to watch
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05:40<Gallomimia>bah. no pizza :(
05:40<Flygon>Yep, those Trams have helped a lot :)
05:40<Flygon>Kicking the Trucks butt!
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05:56*Gallomimia needs a bookmark for watching videos
05:57*Alberth adds a mark to a book, and gives it to Gallomimia
06:15<Gallomimia>finally found out why things weren't making sense in this series
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>that's why i move videos to a different folder after i watched them
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06:25<frosch123>hmm, is that rewboss guy (who seems to be linked quite often here lately) from my town?
06:26<Gallomimia>that's a pretty good idea. i have a few too many videos. and i like to maintain a library rather than just download for personal use. sharing is my game
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know your town...
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>but from what i understood he lives somewhere outside aschaffenburg
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06:35<frosch123>yeah, exactly :p
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09:18<Eddi|zuHause>"Founding of Russia's Black Sea fleet in Sewastopol: 13th May 1783. Official acknowledgement of independence of the USA: 3rd September 1783"
09:22<frosch123>britain was scared of the black sea fleet?
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>possibly :p
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>i might be misremembering this, but weren't there plans to move the fleet away from Sewastopol?
09:25<frosch123>well, ask andy
09:25<frosch123>i guess they need to be river ships to be able to
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>not north, east :p
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10:55<Eddi|zuHause>what works for venezuela can't be wrong for ukraine
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13:56<TheDude>I'd like to ask, is it ok, that when I pause game with game script in single player, I cant unpause it by normal means ?
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that is intended
13:57<TheDude>raelly? but why? what if user wants to continue?
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>the game script must handle that in some way
13:58<@Alberth>why do you pause the game in such a case then?
13:58<TheDude>hm, good question, I wanted to gain user's attention, but yes, it can be drew other way
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>the game has 3 pause conditions: player, network and script. only all three unpaused will unpause the game
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>"network" usually meaning "number of players"
13:59<TheDude>it just surprised me
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14:07<frosch123>gs pauses is intended to be only released by gs
14:08<frosch123>though the gs needs to be careful to not deadlock itself (fs#5283)
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14:16<bialasik>Hello, anybody can help me?
14:17<bialasik>i have problems with newgrfs on my dedicated server
14:18<frosch123>if you copied the config file, make sure there is the correct path separator in the config file
14:18<frosch123>\ vs /
14:18<TinoDidriksen>Or just always use / since that works on all platforms.
14:18<bialasik>when I do content download after select
14:18<bialasik>and I activate it in
14:19<bialasik>after server restarting config's chmod is 664
14:19<frosch123>if you do content download via console, you also need to "rescannewgrf"
14:20<bialasik>it doesn't change anything
14:21<bialasik>i have some newgrf's whose I download with content update, content state, content select and content download
14:21<bialasik>when I download some newgrf, it appears on my web interface
14:22<bialasik>when I add it on webinterface and when I save it, it looks ok on web interface
14:22<bialasik>but when I restart the server, my config's chmod changing
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14:23<bialasik>and newgrfs are disabling
14:23<bialasik>any ideas?
14:23<frosch123>do you change the config while the server is running?
14:23<frosch123>then it likely overwrites it when existing
14:24<frosch123>you can do "reloadconfig" via console to reload the config without exiting the server
14:24<frosch123>or you can pass a command line paramter to never write the config
14:24<bialasik>ok, wait, i'll try this
14:25<bialasik>reloadconfig ERROR: command not found
14:25<bialasik>my ottd: 1.3.3
14:26<frosch123>ah, i see. it's no command, but a setting
14:27<bialasik>what can I do?
14:27<frosch123>so either enable the "reload_cfg" setting which reloads the config when starting a new game
14:27<bialasik>where can I find this?
14:27<bialasik>ok, i got this
14:28<frosch123>or use command line option "-x" to not save on exit
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14:30<bialasik>ok, with -x my config's chmod doesnt broke up
14:30<bialasik>but my newgrfs doesnt working
14:31<bialasik> look at [newgrfs] section, I must write something on the form next to newgrf/Polish_PKP_Set_2.0-2.0.8/pkp-set-2.0.8.grf = ?
14:32<frosch123>no "newgrf"
14:32<@Alberth>games that you load have their own set of newgrfs
14:32<frosch123>you give the path inside the tar
14:33<andythenorth>I want to start my truck set :(
14:33<frosch123>do "tar -tf Polish_PKP_Set_2.0-2.0.8.tar"
14:33<andythenorth>but the rules say no
14:33<frosch123>andythenorth: start a game instead?
14:33<bialasik>where, in this form?
14:33<bialasik>in console, in ssh?
14:33<@Alberth>build a truck from lego?
14:34<frosch123>it lists the content of the tar
14:34<frosch123>so you can tell the path inside the tar
14:34*andythenorth just saw the Lego movie
14:34<frosch123>anyway, it would be way easier if you just prepare a save on your local computer, and upload it :p
14:34<bialasik>I must go to /home/myusername/.openttd/(...), yes?
14:35<frosch123>andythenorth: are you excited for the minecraft movie?
14:35<frosch123>bialasik: yes, content_download/newgrf likely
14:35<andythenorth>I wondered if one is coming :P
14:35<andythenorth>I am a minecraft refusenik
14:35<bialasik>okay, I've got Polish_PKP_Set_2.0-2.0.8/ Polish_PKP_Set_2.0-2.0.8/license.txt Polish_PKP_Set_2.0-2.0.8/pkp-set-2.0.8.grf Polish_PKP_Set_2.0-2.0.8/changelog.txt Polish_PKP_Set_2.0-2.0.8/readme.txt
14:35<frosch123>i heard the lego movie can only be followed up by a minecraft movie
14:35<andythenorth>that was a joke in our office too
14:36<frosch123>bialasik: the ".grf" entry is what you need to put in the config, followed by a "="
14:36<TheDude>hi frosch123, I'd like to thank you for this ( finally , it is simply great
14:36<andythenorth>anyway, I have a game running already right now
14:36<andythenorth>but it needs trucks
14:36<andythenorth>nothing wrong with eGRVTS, but, really, really used it a lot
14:36<frosch123>TheDude: there is a fs task about some obiwan though :p
14:37<frosch123>apparently the grow rates are off by one day or so
14:37<TheDude>hm, I heard something about that, but I dont really know
14:38<frosch123>it's the usual thing
14:38<bialasik>frosch123: it doesn't work, in my web interface after "=" I add Polish_PKP_Set_2.0-2.0.8/pkp-set-2.0.8.grf
14:38<frosch123>loops starting with 0 or 1 :p
14:38<frosch123>"Polish_PKP_Set_2.0-2.0.8/pkp-set-2.0.8.grf=" is the complete row
14:38<frosch123>you do not put anything behind the "="
14:38<frosch123>behind the "=" is for grf paramters
14:39<frosch123>but better try with defaults first
14:39<TheDude>I am now trying those new GS things, and there is one detail, when I set NORMAL_GROWTH, and the condition to grow is positive in GS, it is still possible that town wont grow because of missing service, and the problem is, I dont know how to tell GS that the town is not actually growing
14:39<bialasik>but that was before
14:39<bialasik>newgrf/Polish_PKP_Set_2.0-2.0.8/pkp-set-2.0.8.grf =
14:39<bialasik>and it doesn't work
14:40<frosch123>no "newgrf/"
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14:41<bialasik>and I must have this newgrf on my client, yes?
14:41<bialasik>it can't download automatically?
14:41<frosch123>on the client you can still download it upon join
14:41<frosch123>if it is on bananas
14:42<bialasik>woow, it works!
14:42<bialasik>thanks, frosch123! :)
14:42<frosch123>yw, but i still think uploading a complete savegame would have been easier :p
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14:55<@Alberth>TheDude: keep track of population through time?
14:55<TheDude>hm, what do you mean?
14:56<@Alberth>query population eg every month
14:56<TheDude>town is usually rebuilding houses on its own, houses took few months to complete
14:56<@Alberth>if the town grows, the number should become bigger
14:56<TheDude>it is not really reliable
14:56<TheDude>house count could be maybe better
14:58<TheDude>but then, player could just demolish the house, and GS would be lost
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14:59<TheDude>some GS function like TownHasService would be cleaner, or it GSTown.GetGrowthRate returned some value like NO_SERVICE in addition to actual growth rate and TOWN_GROWTH_NONE
14:59<TheDude>what do you think?
15:01<@Alberth>looks like a worse solution to me
15:01<@Alberth>what if the answer you get is not what you like?
15:02<@Alberth>now you can just program what you want to see as "growth", instead of being stuck with whatever gets implemented in those functions
15:02<@Alberth>maybe someone wants to count road tiles or so as value for "growth", with a builtin function that becomes impossible
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15:05<TheDude>yes, I want to program growth such, that when some cargo is delivered, town grows, with TOWN_GROWTH_NORMAL, which is normal growth without custom GS change
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15:06<TheDude>but when I deliver cargo, but town has no transport service, the town does not grow, and I dont know how to find out about that condition with GS
15:07<frosch123>you could try ScriptTown::HasRating
15:07<frosch123>it could tell you whether there has ever been service in the town
15:07<frosch123>though it does not tell you whether there still is
15:08<TheDude>it has also too much loose ends
15:08<frosch123>or check for passenger transport or so
15:09<TheDude>once there is service, it would have some rating, and I can judge, whether it goes up and down, but I would not know if that is because of existing service or because someone planted/cut trees
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15:18<TheDude>or if station's property time_since_load/time_since_unload were readebla with GS, that would help to make that growth decision
15:20<frosch123>was is your actual goal?
15:20<frosch123>i mean why do you use GROWTH_NORMAL at all?
15:20<frosch123>why not set the rate via gs?
15:25<TheDude>there was some problem with grow counter, I had recreate some code from town_cmd into GS to make it work, and to grow town I used townExpand
15:26<TheDude>and I still wanted to decide growth on existing service too, I wrote a function to simulate that, but it is not reliable, it only decides service on running existing running vehicles in stations that are in town zone, but it can be easily cheated
15:27<TheDude>because the vehicle does not actually visit the station to be counted :-(
15:30<TheDude>when I say growth rate e.g. 10, the town wont grow, because the grow counter stays high, if it was before set to growth_none
15:30<TheDude>that's why I made that bug /request report
15:31<frosch123>that's no longer the case
15:32<TheDude>I am running GS on beta5 and it is still the case
15:32<TheDude>hm, sorry, I read it wrong, it really grows
15:33<TheDude>ok, nice, but if I'd wanted to use or recreate native growth mechanism, the service problem stays
15:34<TheDude>I'd like to actually stick to native growth style, just to enable/disable it when town is supplied or not
15:35<TheDude>it is of course possible, no problem to do that, but I am not able to retrive the real grow status, because of this service condition, which I cant get with GS now
15:36<frosch123>well, then try to not replicate the original algorithm :p
15:37<frosch123>i mean it's not like the original algorithm is particulary challenging or uncheatable
15:37<frosch123>just build 5 bus stops and 1 bus, to get maximum rating
15:37<frosch123>what's the point in replicating that?
15:40<TheDude>it cant be replicated to 100%, original program needs that the vehicle has to visit the station, I cant replicate that
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>i think i will somewhen create a growth script that only grows into areas that are serviced by a station
15:40<TheDude>the point is to control growth with the new GROWTH_NORMAL and NONE, so I dont need to use any extra code
15:41<TheDude>the game will feel just like normal town growing with the need to supply town to grow
15:41<frosch123>well, and why do you need to know service-state then?
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>TheDude: why can't that currently be done?
15:43<TheDude>to tell user that town does not grow at the moment, come on, I already wrote that
15:43<TheDude>because in openttd, the service is ok, when a vehicle visited a station
15:44<frosch123>doesn't the towngui say that anyway?
15:44<TheDude>GS has no functin to tell that, I can only get information, that some station has a running vehicle in its list
15:44<TheDude>towngui is ok, but I cant adjust goal gui to that
15:44<TheDude>user will see, town does not grow in town gui, but goal will say, hey I am growing
15:45<TheDude>user will be confused
15:45<TheDude>and will write me hatemail
15:45<TheDude>I will be very unhappy on my birthday
15:45<TheDude>and that is very unDude
15:46<frosch123>maybe try to consider hatemails as something that pays you attention or so :p
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15:49<TheDude>very funny :-p
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>i still don't understand the problem
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15:50<TheDude>you can reread it again, if you'd like
15:51<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: he wants to replicate information from the town window to the goal window
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15:51<TheDude>so why does GSTown::GetGrowthRate returns a valid value, when town is not growing because of lack of service?
15:52<frosch123>and wants to keep the original growth algorithm, but not the original growth condition
15:52<TheDude>yes, as frosch says, but more precise it that I want to add new condition to original growth
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>so: "if (condition) { normal } else { stop }"
15:53<frosch123> <- i explained the difference between rate and condition here
15:53<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the original algorithm allows conditions by cargo town effect
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15:54<frosch123>but i think TheDude wants them per cargo type
15:54<frosch123>gs allow using the original algorithm, or to replace it completely
15:54<TheDude>yy, town effect is too limited
15:54<TheDude>no, the only problem is gui problem in fact
15:54<frosch123>but they do not easily allow any intermediate thingie
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>so your problem is that while in "normal" mode in above code, the GUI does not display what you want?
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15:55<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise everything works correctly?
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15:56<TheDude>yy, exactly, the new features are excellent and works just fine
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>so what's the difference between what you want to display and what it does display?
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15:57<TheDude>but the feedback I provide in goal gui can be misleading, in the condition when town does not grow because of service
15:57<TheDude>that's the only condition I cant recognize with GS, so it has bad info
15:57<TheDude>difference is: growing/not growing
16:01<TheDude>now if I can find out that town is funded with GSTown.GetFundBuildingsDuration, it would be nice to find out also about service
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16:18<Eddi|zuHause>TheDude: try
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16:19<Eddi|zuHause>TheDude: if that does what you desire, open a bug report with this file attached
16:26-!-Midnightmyth_ [] has joined #openttd
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>"US foreign minister John Kerry accuses Russia of invading countries for completely made up reasons" what was that story again with "weapons of mass destruction"?
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16:31<@Alberth>more like mass delution :p
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16:35<andythenorth>it's ok when we do it
16:35<andythenorth>just not when they do it
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16:36<Eddi|zuHause>well "we" did not do it :p
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>(that one time at least :p)
16:37<__ln__>in any case, the lying iraqi information minister remained an internet meme even after the weapons were not found... even though for all we know he was telling the truth.
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16:38<Eddi|zuHause>there's this story that putin allegedly said: "well if i had invaded Iraq, i would have found the WMD"
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>[meaning: i would have put some in to find]
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17:49<TheDude>thanks Eddi|zuHause, it looks like it could be that simple
17:49<TheDude>good night
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19:25<Gallomimia>it's incredible that kerry would say such a thing, but i guess he says it cause some people still believe his bull... um... tweetie!
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---Logclosed Mon Mar 03 00:00:29 2014