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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-03-08

---Logopened Sat Mar 08 00:00:44 2014
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01:37<andythenorth>o/
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03:54<Phreeze>hm i wonder how running cost and purchase cost factors should be adopted in Newgrfs for trains e.g
03:55<Phreeze>as i cant find information if model A is more costy than B ... i dont know how to set the values...gnaa.....
03:55<Pikka>base it on date, power, speed, etc
03:56<Pikka>TTD economics aren't "realistic". real costs and prices are neither here nor there.
03:56<Phreeze>that's what i went for
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04:01<andythenorth>Pikka choo
04:01<Pikka>andy bob
04:02<Phreeze>choo choo
04:02-!-manu [~manu@121-99-191-70.bng1.nct.orcon.net.nz] has joined #openttd
04:02<Phreeze>Pikka from Australia ?
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04:03<andythenorth>I am avec le children right now, but I will try out your newfangled av8 later
04:03<Pikka>o
04:03<andythenorth>I am hoping frosch might make a new GS
04:03<andythenorth>Silicon Valleys
04:03<Pikka>there's not much to try out really. :D very basic.
04:03<andythenorth>winner
04:03<andythenorth>even better
04:03<andythenorth>less is moar etc
04:04<andythenorth>as long as there's a whirlybird with 40 crates of supplies, I'm happy
04:04<Pikka>umm
04:04<Pikka>actually the cargo capacities are rather more generous than av8
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04:05<andythenorth>the AV8 ones are certainly never too small
04:05<andythenorth>not in my games anyway
04:05<Pikka>"goods" capacities for the three helicopters are 20 / 30 / 50
04:05<Pikka>good enough?
04:05<Pikka>1951 / 1987 / 2023
04:05<andythenorth>2023 :P
04:05<andythenorth>I never play that far
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04:06<andythenorth>30 will do, but I will end up with chopper polution
04:06<Pikka>what, never?
04:06<andythenorth>almost never
04:06<andythenorth>is there some 737 ish thing?
04:06*andythenorth could just look
04:06*andythenorth looks
04:06<Pikka>all the jets are large, though
04:08<Pikka>any road
04:08<Pikka>I'm off for dins
04:08*andythenorth comes back
04:08<andythenorth>yeah, it's good
04:08<andythenorth>smashed out the park etc
04:09<andythenorth>everything looks spot on
04:09<andythenorth>except no elvis
04:09-!-Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
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04:09<Pikka>should put elvis in HEQS :P
04:09*Pikka bbanon
04:10<andythenorth>bye bye
04:10<andythenorth>HEQS is dying
04:11<@Alberth>more insane vehicle names? :)
04:13<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elvis_(helicopter)
04:16<@Alberth>right, you give it the name of a singer, because another country used it in one of its states where the singer happened to live. :)
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04:24<Flygon>Elvis!
04:24<Flygon>Why didn't Elvis stay here for 2013? :(
04:24<Flygon>I LOVED Elvis!
04:25<Flygon>Also
04:25<Flygon>A 747 won't fly from Eglisstaoir to Hvolsvollur
04:25<Flygon>Darn tile limits D:
04:26<V453000>using stupidly large maps <3
04:29<Flygon>2048*2048 isn't stupidly large D:
04:35<@planetmaker>it's insanely large :P
04:35<@planetmaker>good morning :)
04:36<Flygon>Huomenta!
04:36<Flygon>But, yeah
04:36<Flygon>Bugger me
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04:36<Flygon>I'll have to run DMUs from Egli to Hvol x.x
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05:32<Wolf01>hello o/
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05:37<@Alberth>o/
05:45<Phreeze>i hate lighting....
05:45<Phreeze>should design all the locos for nightGFX only xD
05:45<Phreeze>using black, blacker and not so black
05:45<@planetmaker>make it a NewGRF parameter ;)
05:45-!-TheDude [~Miranda@ip-89-176-28-82.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd
05:46<Phreeze>you didn't see the "ONLY" ;)
05:46<@planetmaker>pff!
05:46<@planetmaker>time for some wood chucking :D Or child caring. I shall see ;)
05:47<@planetmaker>maybe both :) Laters
05:47<Phreeze>i need a 3rd video output...tv-stream + chat/photoshop + browser doesn't work out like that
05:47<Phreeze>chuck the child
05:47<Phreeze>problem solved :>
05:47<@planetmaker>the father has a 2nd axe. I might become scared
05:48<Phreeze>then ..kill it with fire (TM)
05:49<TheDude>hello
05:50<TheDude>is Truebrain online sometimes?
05:51<@Alberth>seldom
05:51<@planetmaker>sometimes
05:51<TheDude>he is manager of website, right?
05:52<@planetmaker>what about: just ask your question?
05:52<TheDude>it's the profile page of openttd.org, I'd like to see it finished already, I though I could help with it
05:53<@planetmaker>profile?
05:53<TheDude>http://account.openttd.org/en/profile
05:53<@planetmaker>that part is afaik in the svn repo
05:54<@planetmaker>http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/extra/website/account?rev=26393
05:54<@planetmaker>python / django
05:55<TheDude>I know website is in svn, but still, a word first about the form of the page would be better than just code something
05:55<TheDude>http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/extra/website/account/templates/account/profile.html?rev=26393 :-)
05:56<TheDude>whom could I speak about it then?
05:58<TheDude>or maybe even better question would be, is there a way to edit bananas account?
05:59<@planetmaker>as I have to leave now, too, I might actually suggest to try a discussion in our forums
05:59<@planetmaker>bananas accounts can be edited via phpldapadmin
06:00<@planetmaker>if you mean bananas = users using it. But that's general users. One account
06:00<@planetmaker>We've had some brief thoughts on that, but it's difficult :) Maybe I can find some old conversations given a bit search time
06:01<TheDude>well, I meant things like editing mail, profile details of my own profile
06:02<@planetmaker>bananas itself is different and not exactly in the vcs due to coding style reasons mostly, mixing sensitive data hard-coded into it
06:02<TheDude>phpldapadmin is only available to admins I guess, I dont want to bother admin to edit my account :-)
06:03<TheDude>yeah, I said banana, but accounts are centralised, I meand editing account generally
06:03<@planetmaker>I know. I want that, too
06:03<TheDude>there is even flyspray task for it https://bugs.openttd.org/task/3998?project=4 :-)
06:05<@planetmaker>Well, user accounts are not related to bananas. And that's in principle all in the VCS
06:06<TheDude>I see, so how could I help with making some profile edit form?
06:09<@planetmaker>By writing the appropriate forms, I guess. The typical access is found in the code, e.g backend.py already. Maybe we can come up with a test environment
06:09<@planetmaker>As said, please lay out your plans in the forum, I really run late now
06:10*Pikka returns
06:10<@planetmaker>alternatively use the issue you found in the issue tracker
06:10<Pikka>My aunt got married last weekend and they had an elvis impersonater, it was good times.
06:10<TheDude>ok, I will, thanks for info
06:10<TheDude>dont let me delay you
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07:10<Eddi|zuHause>https://github.com/vvk-ehk/evalimine/blob/c50fc8bc3cf112b2ccb0c8ae648895782f9a0d71/ivote-server/hes/vote_analyzer.py <-- i understand why they declared voting machines unconstitutional here...
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07:11<Eddi|zuHause>this code needs more "goto fail"
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07:52<Flygon>Hmmmm
07:52<Flygon>This'll be interesting
07:52<Flygon>200km/h train vs. aircraft with connecting subway train
07:52<Flygon>And they're choosing the train
07:52<Flygon>Despite aircraft being over 6 times faster
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07:59<lachlan>when trying to build a grf from source, the version shows as noREV. wat
08:00-!-lachlan is now known as TheStevens
08:03<@Alberth>it uses the hg repository and the hg tools for determining the revision you're building
08:03<@Alberth>if they are not present, there is no way to derive a revision
08:04<@Alberth>(assuming the grf you're building is stored in a hg repository)
08:04<TheStevens>okay, so if I'm using subversion it breaks essentially?
08:06<@Alberth>it's not prepared for other VCSes, probably, since hg is the most used VCS at the devzone
08:06<@Alberth>iirc there is also 1 project using git, but no svn afaik
08:07<@Alberth>ie there is currently no need to support svn too, I think
08:08<TheStevens>fair enough. I'll just have to hack together my own solution I guess.
08:08<@Alberth>but basically it asks the revision from the VCS, that is possible with svn too
08:09<@Alberth>if you can make it work together the existing code, the change could be considered for addition in the standard setup
08:10<@Alberth>+with
08:12<@Alberth>although svn is very useless for use by others, so I don't know if that would be a desired change
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08:15<TheStevens>that's fair enough. I simply picked it because it was the easiest to set up and use for my purposes.
08:17<TheStevens>and the change is probably going to be a total of about 3 lines needing changing in the makefile anyway.
08:18<@Alberth>if you want to support both VCSes, it's more work probably, especially if you also handle not having the tools available
08:19<@Alberth>fyi, hg is even easier than svn, as the working copy is also the repository
08:19-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd
08:19<@Alberth>hi andy
08:19<andythenorth>o/
08:20<andythenorth>@seen frosch123
08:20<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 17 hours, 5 minutes, and 6 seconds ago: <frosch123> "close all applications before installing" then reboot one or two times
08:20<andythenorth>hmm
08:20*andythenorth is itching for Silicon Valleys
08:20<andythenorth>Alberth: should we learn Squirrel? o_O
08:21<@Alberth>want to make your own silicon?
08:22<@Alberth>I wrote some test-ish stuff in squirrel, but nothing serious yet
08:23<TheStevens>I'll have a little looksie at hg. as a noob at repositories the svn docs seemed to be the easiest to understand for someone of my... skill
08:26<andythenorth>I'm wondering how hard it would be to adapt SV to n cities
08:26<andythenorth>whether it means re-writing everything, or if the current code can be packed up in a couple of loops
08:26<@Alberth>svn has the more fixed setup of a central repository. From that, the workflow follows, which is thus also fairly fixed, I can see it's more easier to manage at first
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>depends on who is doing it :p
08:27<andythenorth>I found a central repo a bit of a headache
08:27<@Alberth>hg is more flexible. You can use it like you use svn, but there are also other ways. This uncertainty makes the workflow also less easy to describe
08:27<andythenorth>it seems more logical, but meh
08:27<Pikka>as far as gamescripts go, better off taking the basic principle and making your own version from scratch, imo. but that's generally my philosophy with most things. :)
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>central repo makes it more difficult to work on things that are not quite ready yet
08:28<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: svn does have branches :)
08:29<andythenorth>Pikka: want to make one for me then? o_O
08:29<Pikka>andythenorth: yes
08:29<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: but that creates a whole set of other problems :)
08:29<andythenorth>that was not the answer I expected :P
08:29<andythenorth>I thought you would tell me to boil my head
08:30<Pikka>well, there you go :P
08:30<@Alberth>you say "yes" and he still doesn't believe it :p
08:30<andythenorth>I don't want to play *without* GS any more
08:30<Pikka>I did write a not-very-complex AI, how hard can a gs be? ;)
08:30*Alberth ponders about IdleGS
08:31*andythenorth ponders about cargo distribution, on a totally unrelated subject
08:31*Pikka ponders about universalremote.grf
08:31<andythenorth>indeed
08:31<andythenorth>so do most of you just use cdist as a waybill dispatcher?
08:32<andythenorth>i.e. handling the transfers etc
08:32<Eddi|zuHause>what else would you use it for?
08:32<Pikka>it's mostly useful for passengers tbh
08:32<@Alberth>mostly yes, as multi-cargo transport is a PITA in openttd
08:33<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waybill
08:33<andythenorth>I am +1 to pax dist
08:33<andythenorth>because I don't care where pax goes
08:33<andythenorth>so I can wave hands and say "ok, YACD is gone, let's stop talking about YACD"
08:33<andythenorth>but
08:34<@Alberth>pax dist is basically single cargo dist transport, which is quite doable
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>i use it for passengers and primary cargos. it's not much use for secondary cargos (e.g. goods), as it does not enforce connecting as many destinations as possible
08:34<andythenorth>cdist in current form goes beyond dispatching, and controls economy
08:34<andythenorth>but it's not good enough to control the economy
08:34<andythenorth>it's a pretty good dispatcher
08:35<Eddi|zuHause>basically if you wanted to distribute goods through different parts of the city, you lose more than you gain
08:37<andythenorth>I wanted to use it for freight in my single player NCG game
08:37<andythenorth>it would have worked perfectly for the inbound primary cargo
08:37<Pikka>andy: what's this GS of yourn supposed tae do?
08:37<andythenorth>but supply distribution would have been borked
08:37<Pikka>we should play SV and you can tell me how it differs from SV. :P
08:37<andythenorth>indeed
08:38<andythenorth>it's just SV, but multiple cities
08:38<andythenorth>instead of one
08:38<Pikka>eh
08:38<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=62556
08:38<andythenorth>eh indeed
08:38<andythenorth>it's not a ground breaking idea
08:38<Pikka>can probably make it more interesting ;)
08:38<Pikka>interesting / evil
08:38<andythenorth>I tried having good ideas, but I had this one instead
08:39<andythenorth>SV is good for single player, over 50 or 70 years
08:39<Pikka>I tried having good ideas and came up with regearing...
08:39<andythenorth>but the later part of the game is kind of monotonous
08:39<andythenorth>just 'moar stuff'
08:39<andythenorth>still fun
08:39<andythenorth>but I'm not itching to play it again
08:40<Pikka>soo
08:40<Pikka>multiple cities, one cargo
08:40<andythenorth>nah
08:40<Pikka>or different cargo for each city?
08:40<andythenorth>each one specialises
08:40<Pikka>k
08:40<andythenorth>so you cover more of the cargo types
08:40<andythenorth>with FIRS Basic economies it would be fun
08:40<andythenorth>there are about 18 or 19 cargos
08:40<andythenorth>you'd need to transport the majority of them
08:40<Pikka>can I give the GS a silly name?
08:41<andythenorth>no
08:41<andythenorth>it must be very sensible
08:41<andythenorth>do you have a name?
08:41<Pikka>and do some industry/cargo analysis so that it doesn't pick supply cargos? actually, I already started something like that for an AI. :)
08:41<Pikka>no, I don't have a name
08:41<andythenorth>yair
08:41<andythenorth>supply cargos are not a good cargo goal
08:41<andythenorth>also it should do disasters
08:42<andythenorth>bandits have destroyed your bridge, etc
08:42<andythenorth>the natives are restless
08:42<andythenorth>that kind of thing
08:42<andythenorth>praps not :P
08:42<Pikka>plebs are needed
08:42<Pikka>you have been eaten by a grue
08:43<andythenorth>or a gruffalo
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>"la resistance has sabotaged your rails"
08:43<andythenorth>can GS do disasters?
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>somewhat
08:43<andythenorth>why do I turn disasters off?
08:43<andythenorth>are they good?
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>no
08:44<Pikka>they are extremely uninteresting
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>the ufos always land at the same place
08:44<Pikka>even if they didn't, disasters are basically "notice this and you need to rebuild two pieces of track"
08:44<Pikka>"don't notice this and your network will be buggered until you do"
08:44<andythenorth>or rebuild your factory
08:45<Pikka>http://plebs.ytmnd.com/ gs can't play sound files, right?
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>probably not :)
08:51<andythenorth>feature request
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09:06<andythenorth>can I start my RV set yet?
09:06<andythenorth>or do I have to finish the bloody ships?
09:06<Pikka>start your rv set
09:07<Pikka>aren't the ships finished? :P
09:07<andythenorth>they're not
09:09<Pikka>o
09:09<Pikka>you still have some to remove? ;)
09:09<andythenorth>maybe
09:09<andythenorth>I added some pointless river boats
09:09<andythenorth>they could go
09:09<Pikka>what's the road vehicle set going to be like?
09:10<andythenorth>it will have road vehicles in it
09:10<andythenorth>I know that much
09:10<andythenorth>I should design it
09:10<Pikka>awesome
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>you first have to finish all sets before you can start a new one!
09:11<andythenorth>oh :(
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>not just your own set, but the sets of all other peopel
09:11<andythenorth>might be a while
09:11<andythenorth>anyway 90% of newgrfs are useless
09:11<andythenorth>that pax engine thread says so
09:12<andythenorth>what's wrong with default RVs anyway?
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>maybe he looked at a sample of separator grfs :p
09:12<Pikka>too slow, too low capacity, and not pretty enough
09:12<Pikka>and too short a vehicle lifespan
09:12<Pikka>to be precise :)
09:12<andythenorth>and the upgrades are kind of meh
09:12<andythenorth>also no cargo support
09:12<Pikka>and no autorefit
09:12<Pikka>yes
09:13<andythenorth>I'll do up a list or something
09:13<andythenorth>I might even have one already
09:13<Pikka>if you're anything like me you've got three
09:13<andythenorth>yeah
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>what are the reasons why this rv set will end up better than the last one?
09:15<andythenorth>I won't go off in a huff
09:15-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d00df51.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
09:15<andythenorth>and I don't care about balancing similar-but-different trucks any more
09:15<andythenorth>and there's no attempt at putting in 'story'
09:15<andythenorth>or imposing a type of gameplay
09:16<andythenorth>if it turns out to plan, you basically get 'bus', 'truck', 'big truck' in any given year
09:16<andythenorth>and then some specialist types
09:17<andythenorth>oh I made a plan
09:17<andythenorth>that's nice
09:17*andythenorth bbl
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>if you add a "meow" and "wetroad"... :p
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09:37<andythenorth>Pikka: so AV9 begins 1919?
09:37<Pikka>yep
09:38<Pikka>is that right?
09:39<andythenorth>yeah
09:39<andythenorth>think so
09:40<andythenorth>I am going to design RVs on the assumption that I only us AV9 for planes
09:40<andythenorth>they're not very related, but slightly
09:40<Pikka>fwiw
09:40<andythenorth>especially for supply distribution
09:40<Pikka>my road vehicle plan has the first bus in 1919 and the first truck in 1926
09:41<andythenorth>mine has the first decent truck in 1915 currently
09:41<Pikka>hmm
09:41<andythenorth>but that might change
09:41<Pikka>well
09:41<andythenorth>basically I don't do FIRS supplies without planes
09:41<andythenorth>and trucks
09:41<Pikka>ho ho
09:41<Pikka>well, you know
09:42<Pikka>if people want trucks and planes they should be starting in 1930 or 1950 or later
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09:42<andythenorth>yair
09:42<andythenorth>when does your train set start?
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>i'd kinda like a tram set that starts in 1880 or so
09:42<Pikka>canonically in 1900
09:42<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: HEQS? o_O
09:42<andythenorth>:P
09:42<Pikka>I think the first two locos are 1896 and 1897
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>HEQS is not a tram set :p
09:42<andythenorth>oh yes, you transport pax :P
09:43<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: all my sets are pegged to around 1870 or so
09:43<andythenorth>and I'm open to pax trams
09:43<Pikka>hmm
09:43<Pikka>should I have pax (/any) trams?
09:43<Pikka>trams are a bit silly
09:43<Pikka>needs more properroadtypes
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>they're better than horse carriages
09:44<andythenorth>I like trams, ish
09:44<Pikka>they're not better than trains, though :P
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>they are, if you don't want to destroy half the town :p
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>also, it's easier to scale up the capacity of the link
09:45<andythenorth>metro :P
09:45<andythenorth>metro on a way ring is buggy btw
09:45<Pikka>"scale up the capacity of the link" means "spam road vehicles", right?
09:45<andythenorth>I have to add orders for every station, or the trains get lost :P
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes-ish :)
09:45<andythenorth>Pikka: what else could it mean? :)
09:46<Pikka>early supply delivery truck, you reckon
09:47<Flygon>It just occoured to me I literally gridlocked OpenTTD
09:47<Flygon>The road simulation is too accurate :B
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%204.%20Aug%201953_3.png
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>see how the train links are heavily overloaded while the tram links can actually manage?
09:52<Flygon>I tend to have the opposite issue. My Trams are always jammed more than the Trains
09:52<Flygon>At least, until the 1960s
09:52<Flygon>For some reason
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>well later it looked like this: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%2025.%20Jul%201988.png (unfortunately without station windows)
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10:03<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you need unrealistic capacity trams
10:03<andythenorth>this whole 'low capacity' thing works for trains, but is bad when applied to other types
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: well the GermanRV trams do have higher capacity than the default vehicles
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>also, in CETS i offer higher capacity commuter trains
10:04*Pikka supposes I should add trams...
10:04<andythenorth>it's the way forward
10:04<andythenorth>to both points :P
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>there are a few capacity oddities in GermanRV, though
10:05<andythenorth>low or high?
10:11<andythenorth>the thing is
10:11<andythenorth>vehicles that have 10t capacity are totally pointless
10:11<andythenorth>when their speed is 18mph that's offensive too
10:11<Pikka>but horsesssssss
10:12<Pikka>I added a 1910 truck, 20mph, 15t capacity, is that acceptabubble? considering it's purely for short supply links
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it's not the capacity per se, but the length variation. some vehicles have a different length scale without adjusting the capacity
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10:14<andythenorth>Pikka: I dunno, I have something about the same
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/attachment.php?aid=4501
10:14<andythenorth>I look at it and think I'll never use it
10:14<andythenorth>Antonov problem
10:14<andythenorth>build a train
10:14<andythenorth>or a NG train
10:14<Pikka>antonov is silly
10:14<andythenorth>or even - shock - a canal
10:15<andythenorth>nothing wrong with the Antonov
10:15<andythenorth>it's just got no purpose
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>those are 4 trams from roughly the same era, and they have vastly different capacity per vehicle length
10:15<andythenorth>why don't we use canals more before 1910 or so?
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: because canals are way too expensive at that time
10:15<andythenorth>I have a cost adjustment built in
10:16<Pikka>also, "canals"
10:16<andythenorth>yeah that
10:16<andythenorth>they have square corners
10:16<andythenorth>it's really a blocker
10:16<Pikka>no distinction between foxton locks and suez
10:17*Pikka still thinks small industrial canals should be a roadtype :D
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>i had this idea once that ships came in different width (1/2, 1, 2) and they pass each other like road vehicles
10:18<andythenorth>it's a nice idea
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>so on a 1 tile wide river/canal you can have 1/2 width ships in both directions, or 1 width ships in one direction
10:18<andythenorth>Pikka: haven't you been to England? All our locks can handle container ships
10:18<andythenorth>dunno about your upside down locks
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>so you need 4 tile wide canals to run the huge ocean ships
10:20<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: but you didn't implement it, right? :D
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>no :)
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>part of the idea was that buoys automatically create waterways between them at the appropriate width
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>other water tiles are not traversable by ships
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10:24<andythenorth>nice, but I am -1 to that one :)
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10:25<andythenorth>'something must be done' about canals and stuff
10:25<andythenorth>dunno what
10:25<andythenorth>I could give river boats a big cost advantage
10:25<andythenorth>does anyone care about costs though?
10:25<Pikka>I don't think anything needs to be done about canals and stuff
10:26<andythenorth>do ever use rivers?
10:26<Pikka>nein
10:26<Pikka>they're like antonovs and horsewagons. they don't really fit into the way TTD works.
10:27<andythenorth>nope
10:28<andythenorth>also ugly
10:28<Pikka>I don't even build canals for big ships - I lower the land to sea level, like one used to
10:28<Pikka>looks better, easier to build bridges over
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10:28<Pikka>and usually cheaper
10:29<andythenorth>yup
10:29<andythenorth>moi aussi
10:29<andythenorth>also can build docks on it
10:30<Pikka>si
10:30<andythenorth>can't build docks on canals and rivers
10:30<andythenorth>stupid transport type
10:30<andythenorth>want some trains? build a station
10:30<andythenorth>want some planes? build airport
10:30<andythenorth>want some trucks? build RV stop
10:30<andythenorth>want river boats?
10:31<andythenorth>demolish some buildings, raise some land, and build 9 tiles of water so they don't get stuck
10:31<andythenorth>then build an ugly dock
10:31<Pikka>like I said
10:31<Pikka>would make a good roadtype ;)
10:31<andythenorth>hmm
10:31<andythenorth>also routing is broken for ships
10:31<andythenorth>may I delete the river boats from Squid? o_O
10:31<andythenorth>having established they are totally lame
10:32<andythenorth>clarification: routing is broken for ships on canals and rivers
10:32<Pikka>imo, yes
10:32<Pikka>did I do 10cc shipstable yet? I don't think I did...
10:33<Pikka>good ol' spreadsheet newgrfs :)
10:35<andythenorth>lovely
10:35<andythenorth>put it on bananas
10:35<andythenorth>call it 'super big ships 2'
10:35<andythenorth>get 1m downloads
10:35<Pikka>yes
10:36<Pikka>nearly 300 downloads of av9.81
10:36<Pikka>who are these people?
10:40<andythenorth>bots
10:40<andythenorth>and andythenorth
10:41<andythenorth>Pikka: can you make your AI build canals?
10:41<andythenorth>o_O
10:41<Pikka>I don't see why not
10:41<Pikka>but why would it?
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: my GRF is purely spreadsheet :)
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>write entry in table, press compile, booom GRF.
10:57<frosch123>we need more educational grfs
10:57<frosch123>like scrabble train composition
10:57<frosch123>or math equations
10:59<Pikka>Eddi: great, as long as you don't want graphics. :)
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: i have "crude" graphics as well :)
11:00<frosch123>maybe the capacity should equal the unit number of the front engine
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: so you build 100 cheap dummy trains that you leave in depot before you can build useful ones?
11:02<frosch123>hmm, true, we need gs that penalizes stopped trains
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11:10<andythenorth>Pikka: your AI should build canals so I don't have to :P
11:11<frosch123>hmm, good point... why are there about 3 road network ais, but no canal network ais?
11:14<andythenorth>they would find it impossible to build docks :P
11:14*andythenorth tried to patch flat docks
11:14<andythenorth>I successfully managed to create an assert
11:14<frosch123>post it in the recent ttdp thread :p
11:15<andythenorth>there's a thread? :o
11:15<frosch123>yet another does-ottd-have-all-ttdp-features-thread
11:15<frosch123>but noone mentioned flat docks
11:16<andythenorth>are they in ttdp?
11:16<frosch123>kind of
11:16<frosch123>you do not need the terraforming
11:16<frosch123>but you still need wide canals to not block them
11:17<frosch123>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=224416#p224416
11:17<andythenorth>they should be 1 or 2 tiles at the waterside
11:17*andythenorth waits for Eddi|zuHause to mention state machines :)
11:17<+michi_cc>They are in the NewGRF specs, but I have yet to see a NewGRF implementing any. This might be an advantage though, if there is nothing to be compatible with, the hypothetical OTTD flat docks could use the water dock tile as the stopping position.
11:18*andythenorth wonders about patching train stations so that ships see them
11:18<andythenorth>or patching ships to look for train stations :P
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11:20<andythenorth>hi Pikka
11:20<andythenorth>been a while
11:24<Pikka>how rare
11:24<Pikka>also new(air)ports
11:25<andythenorth>also crates and tons
11:25<andythenorth>and refitting
11:25<andythenorth>funny numbers
11:27<Pikka>eh
11:28<Pikka>they're just units, crates, tons, whatever :P
11:30<andythenorth>sometimes they are 50% less than you expected :P
11:30<Pikka>like when?
11:30<andythenorth>somewhere in HEQS
11:31<andythenorth>and in eGRVTS
11:31<andythenorth>it's that old diagram about refitting
11:31<Pikka>one should always explicitly return a capacity when refitting, imo... not rely on the silly default behaviour
11:31<andythenorth>I think I just didn't fix it in HEQS
11:32<andythenorth>is a 20t truck worth having?
11:32<andythenorth>maybe 30t is the smallest to bother with
11:33<Pikka>depends
11:33<Pikka>do you want people using trucks to transport everything
11:33<andythenorth>no
11:33<andythenorth>not that I care
11:33<Pikka>probably shouldn't make them too useful then ;)
11:33<andythenorth>but I might not bother with 20t
11:33<andythenorth>I did once consider adding 'convoys'
11:33<andythenorth>but it got shot down
11:37<Pikka>psh
11:38<andythenorth>psh good, or psh bad?
11:39<Pikka>psh getting shot down, you can do what you like :P
11:39<Pikka>I don't think I'm even doing articulated rvs though, except perhaps trams
11:39<andythenorth>have you not heard of the court of public opinion? :P
11:39<andythenorth>oh that's nice
11:39<andythenorth>I think I'm mostly only doing articulated :)
11:39<andythenorth>compare and contrast
11:39<Pikka>yep :)
11:40<Pikka>so
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11:40<Pikka>silicon andy gamescript and universal remote newgrf
11:40<Pikka>and trains
11:40<andythenorth>and av9
11:40<Pikka>av9 is done
11:40<Pikka>except the graphics :)
11:40<andythenorth>so is UK Houses thing
11:40<andythenorth>I tried it until 2010 or so
11:40<andythenorth>looks nice
11:41<Pikka>which? the TaI?
11:41<andythenorth>yair
11:41<Pikka>eh
11:41<Pikka>could be better coded
11:41<andythenorth>I don't look at that bit
11:41<andythenorth>"houses: solved" as far as I am concerned
11:41<andythenorth>that one's done
11:42<Pikka>well
11:42<Pikka>could be better graphics too
11:42<Pikka>but I'll get back to that :P
11:42<andythenorth>nah it's finished
11:42<andythenorth>unless you 32 whatsit it
11:43<Pikka>yes
11:43<Pikka>that
11:43<andythenorth>also trams
11:43<andythenorth>so what is point of small slow truck if freight trams also?
11:44<Pikka>true
11:44<Pikka>perhaps
11:44<Pikka>but I don't freight trams
11:44<andythenorth>even farms with trams is not wrong
11:44*andythenorth trams freight
11:44<Pikka>you can freight trams
11:44<andythenorth>I'll freight trams
11:44<andythenorth>you do not freight trams
11:44<Pikka>you will
11:44<Pikka>isn't it
11:44<andythenorth>couldn't be clearer
11:45<andythenorth>my RV set: now with fewer vehicles
11:45<andythenorth>winnar is us
11:45<Pikka>yes
11:45<andythenorth>also
11:46<andythenorth>trams are types
11:46<andythenorth>none of this 'refit any of the wagons to different body types' crap
11:46*andythenorth has made decision
11:46<andythenorth>public opinion be damned
11:46<Pikka>huzzah!
11:46<andythenorth>livestock tram!
11:46<andythenorth>dump truck tram!
11:46<andythenorth>tanker tram!
11:47<andythenorth>maybe even capacity refits can go to hell?
11:47<andythenorth>they are very nice...
11:47<andythenorth>...in HEQS
11:47<Pikka>what about autorefittings
11:47<andythenorth>autorefittings is ok
11:48<andythenorth>ah capacity refittings breaks autorefittings
11:48<andythenorth>so no capacity refittings
11:51<frosch123>they do not
11:52<andythenorth>capacity != capacity ;)
11:52<andythenorth>bad terminology
11:53<andythenorth>subtype refits that change length breaks autorefittings
11:53<andythenorth>"may not change length in stations"
11:54<frosch123>as long as you ahve the same length options for each cargo, there is no issue
11:54<frosch123>autorefit picks the same cargo subtype
11:54<frosch123>all ordered refits do that
11:56<andythenorth>hmm
11:56<andythenorth>that changed since I removed autorefit from HEQS trams
11:56<andythenorth>improvements :)
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12:05<frosch123>i thought i tested that specifically with firs :p
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12:36<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: tram speeds for 1905 or so? 30mph or 35mph?
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>something around 30-40km/h? tram speeds are "unrealistic" anyway
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>inner city trams go something like 20km/h
12:38<andythenorth>I prefer unrealistic :)
12:38<andythenorth>30mph is plenty
12:38<frosch123>make it half the speed of a freight train in iron horse?
12:38<frosch123>at any time during a game
12:39<frosch123>you need some corporate branding :p
12:41<andythenorth>do I have to provide trucks after 1995? :P
12:41<andythenorth>my games always finish by 200x
12:42<frosch123>v raged recently about egrvts not having any vehicles after 2030 or so
12:42<frosch123>can you deal with a raging v?
12:42<andythenorth>yeah
12:42<andythenorth>so just 6 RVs for 'general freight'
12:42<frosch123>i mean if he plays with rv for once :p
12:42<andythenorth>covers 1870-1995
12:42<frosch123>ah, you are making boring sets again
12:42<andythenorth>hold your horses :P
12:43<andythenorth>I haven't added in the hoverbus yet
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12:43<andythenorth>if you would get on and do roadtypes, I could add electric trucks
12:44<andythenorth>volvo and such are trialling them on overhead catenary again
12:44<andythenorth>and embedded power rail
12:45<Pikka>I don't think he raged because no new ones were introduced
12:45<Pikka>I think he raged because the last vehicles expired :P
12:46<andythenorth>there is nowhere to go once I've got to 1995
12:46<andythenorth>I don't want bigger trucks, or faster
12:46<andythenorth>maybe a bit more power, but hardly worth it
12:46<andythenorth>flying trucks...maybe
12:47<Pikka>ohhh
12:47<Pikka>I forgot fishing boats, "whoops"
12:47<andythenorth>oopsie
12:47<andythenorth>flying fishing boats?
12:47<Pikka>I guess I need one or two of those, for firs porpoises
12:47<Pikka>yes
12:47<Pikka>for catching flying fish
12:47<andythenorth>when is seaplanes done?
12:48<Pikka>oh, years and years ago
12:48<andythenorth>hoverfish?
12:48<andythenorth>hmm
12:48<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> do I have to provide trucks after 1995? :P <-- yes :)
12:49<andythenorth>I could do Longer Heavier Vehicles - 2x capacity, 2 trailers
12:49<andythenorth>or autonomous trucks which travel in trains
12:49<andythenorth>or...swarm of quadcopters? Replacing trucks...
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>or just ones that are 30% larger and 30% faster
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>dimensional compressor trucks, fit more stuff into the same volume
12:50<andythenorth>fusion powered
12:51<frosch123>yeah, why make it big on the outside, if you need the space inside
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>there was something about the ITER recently, where they wanted to make the concrete base plate only half as thick, for money reasons, and the (french) inspector said it would make it totally unsafe
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13:03<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I've added some 20xx truck, just for you :P
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>i really doubt i will ever actually use them :p
13:04<andythenorth>I slightly doubt I'll code them or draw them :P
13:06<andythenorth>so when are we getting trolley trucks?
13:06<andythenorth>http://hutnyak.com/ItalianTrolley.html
13:08<andythenorth>http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2009/07/trolleytrucks-trolleybuses-cargotrams.html
13:10<andythenorth>http://trolleytruck.eu
13:11*andythenorth wonders about a varact 2 that can detect if a non-tram RV is on a tile that also has tram
13:11<andythenorth>and adjust power accordingly
13:11<andythenorth>haxor
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13:20<Eddi|zuHause>not without "roadtypes"
13:22<andythenorth>ha ha
13:22*andythenorth invents a farm tram
13:22<andythenorth>it's even realistic
13:23<andythenorth>livestock wagons, milk can go in them in churns
13:23<andythenorth>haul supplies on the way back
13:23<andythenorth>winning
13:24<Pikka>si
13:24<Phreeze>never seen in reality ;)
13:24<andythenorth>orly?
13:24<andythenorth>are you familiar with black swans? o_O
13:25<Phreeze>nay
13:27<frosch123>are they relatives to unicorns?
13:28<Pikka>I should ask them
13:28<Pikka>there's some that hang around the lagoon up at sandgate...
13:30<andythenorth>is problem
13:30<andythenorth>claimings about reality
13:30<andythenorth>requires seen all reality
13:30<andythenorth>*all*
13:30<andythenorth>and also not drunk
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13:35<andythenorth>vehicle set can't trigger news messages?
13:35<andythenorth>"new regulations: milk must be moved by tanker for hyienic'
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13:36<Pikka>too many realisms by half
13:39<andythenorth>half as many instead?
13:39<Pikka>easily
13:41<andythenorth>herp
13:45<Kjetil>"Election news: Communist elected. All private property seized"
13:46<andythenorth>with a farm trams, l only need 3 livestock trucks
13:46<andythenorth>or can I just have 2?
13:46<Pikka>yes
13:46<andythenorth>livestock truck, better livestock truck
13:46<andythenorth>after about 1945 and 1978 or something
13:48<Kjetil>"Animal activists seizes power: Livestock production halts"
13:48<frosch123>why would animal acivits kill 90% of land mammals?
13:49<frosch123>http://www.xkcd.com/1338/
13:49<Kjetil>because they are treehuggers
13:50<andythenorth>does that chart include ants?
13:51<Pikka>ants, the well-known mammal
13:51<frosch123>exactly :)
13:51<frosch123>i have a small ant farm, who i milk every day
13:51<andythenorth>I learn something every day
13:51<andythenorth>ants are not mammals? :O
13:52<Pikka>they are not!
13:52<Pikka>nor are black swans
13:52<andythenorth>ant tram
13:52<frosch123>anyway, i am kind of disappointed that water mammals are not included in that chart
13:52<Pikka>what is this
13:52<Pikka>a tram for ants?
13:53<frosch123>are hippos land mammals?
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13:54<Pikka>probably
14:00<andythenorth>ant farm?
14:00<andythenorth>ant economy?
14:00<frosch123>widelands has spider farms
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14:05<andythenorth>tankers in IH autorefit between alcohol, oil, rubber, petrol, fertiliser etc
14:05<andythenorth>is that good?
14:05<Pikka>yes
14:05<andythenorth>ok
14:05<andythenorth>should I make it cost?
14:05<Pikka>if people complain that it's unrealistic, tell them "don't do it then"
14:05<frosch123>alcohol and feriliser? sounds about right
14:05<Pikka>no you should not
14:05<andythenorth>in that case I have nothing to change
14:05<andythenorth>winner
14:09<Pikka>hm
14:09<Pikka>29 ships
14:09<Pikka>26, too
14:09<Pikka>but rather, 15 ships
14:09<Pikka>with 26 generational graphics
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14:10<Pikka>nothing expires, new ships are always (usually) larger, the older smaller ships change sprites from steam -> diesel etc
14:11<Pikka>keeps the buy menu relatively uncluttered, while also giving a range of ship sizes
14:12<frosch123>forced not playing with breakdowns though
14:12<Pikka>why?
14:12<Pikka>because of silly random range of maximum reliability?
14:12<frosch123>that's the only purpose of breakdowns
14:13<Pikka>I don't think even people who play with breakdowns on pay much attention to that
14:13<frosch123>i once tried nars2 or something, and the 0-4-0 or however it was called was useless for the whole game
14:13<frosch123>you just cannot build an engine with 70% reliability
14:14<frosch123>usually you pick an older engine of the same class instead
14:14<frosch123>but that fails for the changing-stats vehicles
14:14<Pikka>changing-stats vehicles is always a bad idea
14:14<Pikka>for a whole host of reasons
14:15<frosch123>oh, maybe i misunderstood you there
14:15<frosch123>you only want to change sprites, not stats
14:15<Pikka>yes
14:15<Pikka>but your point is still valid because there won't be "an older engine of the same class"
14:15<Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> "new regulations: milk must be moved by tanker for hyienic' <-- i always wanted to have that, to do like "speed limit for freight trains has been increased from 35 km/h to 55km/h"
14:16<Eddi|zuHause>something that can be done in NewGRFs, but isn't really obvious to the user
14:16<frosch123>well, maybe with ships you have more variety
14:16<Pikka>GS should be able to impose speed limits on vehicles
14:16<frosch123>but with only 5 train engines (or so) it was definitely an issue
14:16<Pikka>or arbitrarily destroy vehicles :D
14:17<Pikka>ehhhhhhh... 5 train engines
14:17<Pikka>have you seen av9? lol
14:17<frosch123>i did not build any planes in the last game
14:17<frosch123>i saw only stratocruisers flying around
14:17<Pikka>there aren't a whole lot of vehicle choices...
14:18<Pikka>perhaps you should quietly narrow down the range of maximum reliability? ;) or not, because really, who plays with breakdowns on normal?
14:18<frosch123>the silly thing with aircraft was always that small aircraft are better because the commuter airport is just so much better :p
14:18<Pikka>yes
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: have you introduced a parameter to scale ranges up for larger maps in av9?
14:19<Pikka>no, I have not
14:19<andythenorth>cumooooter airport is best one
14:19<andythenorth>apart from helistation
14:19<Pikka>I have removed ranges altogether
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>aww...
14:20<frosch123>yet another point for more patchpacks :)
14:20<frosch123>trunk inclusion is overrated
14:20<frosch123>people just stop using features
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: you mean like a "more airports" patchpack?
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>because RichK67 did have those :)
14:21<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: no, i mean that ottd accumulates features with are considered awesome when added, but over time become unused
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: like combo signals?
14:22<frosch123>like noise levels, infra cost, aircraft range, autorefit, timetables, vehicle groups, autoreplace, ...
14:22<frosch123>hmm, i guess autoreplace is still valid if i would play longer lasting games :p
14:22<@Alberth>:)
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>i always use autoreplace differently than everyone else
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>like i probably am the only person who uses the "upgrade vehicles in this depot" button :)
14:23<andythenorth>no
14:23<andythenorth>I use it too
14:23<andythenorth>but only when autoreplace is failing
14:23<frosch123>i used to use it as well,, though i cannot remember what for
14:23<andythenorth>because autoreplace doesn't always work?
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>pause, set rule, click upgrade, remove rule, unpause
14:24<frosch123>maybe just for stopped vehicles or something
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14:24<andythenorth>that button's tool tip should be 'autoreplace is buggy, use this when it fails'
14:24<Pikka>it does always work, andy :P
14:24<andythenorth>but I have never found why it fails, so I've never been able to report it
14:24<andythenorth>probably just some setting I have wrong
14:24<Pikka>you can autoreplace within groups only
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14:25<Pikka>you're probably setting autoreplace for a group thinking you're doing it globally ;)
14:25<andythenorth>nah
14:25<andythenorth>I use group autoreplace all the time
14:25<Pikka>k
14:25<andythenorth>autoreplace without groups would be a crime
14:25<Pikka>perhaps :o
14:25<andythenorth>what else did frosch mention
14:25<andythenorth>timetables - need those because we don't have partial load, and there seems to be an aversion to even discussing it
14:26<frosch123>yes,i also use timetables to set loading times
14:26<andythenorth>"no you may not have partial load, you must use some fricking insane conditional order routing, involving looping trains through the station multiple times"
14:26<frosch123>they are actually nice for that, but noone seems to know about that usage
14:26<Pikka>most of the things frosch mentioned I see used all the time
14:26<Pikka>but aircraft range just isn't good for gameplay. :)
14:26<andythenorth>"you may not have a callback, you must run a loop and poll for state constantly"
14:27<andythenorth>noise levels aren't stupid
14:27<Pikka>I use noise levels
14:27<andythenorth>the inability to ignore them in settings is stupid though :P
14:27<andythenorth>is aircraft range a thing? I wouldn't notice
14:28<andythenorth>is it used in AV8?
14:28<Pikka>yes, it is used in av8
14:28<andythenorth>I never run into it
14:28<andythenorth>if I did, I'd just build a waypoint airport
14:28<andythenorth>simples
14:28<Pikka>quite
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14:28<andythenorth>just more kibbling
14:29<andythenorth>non-interesting choices
14:29<Pikka>infrastructure costs are a good idea but some of the defaults are a bit wacky
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>timetables are just a pain to set up and coordinate
14:29<Pikka>particularly airports :)
14:29<andythenorth>infra costs are not useful in MP GS challenges
14:29<andythenorth>and I don't play single player any more much, so I didn't notice them
14:29<andythenorth>the solution to 'too much money' is 'challenge based gameplay'
14:30<Pikka>"people make too much money flying passengers between opposite sides of the map, let's add a cost that makes flying passengers between the opposite sides of the map the only economical strategy" ;)
14:30<andythenorth>if adding more costs solved this stuff, we'd have fixed it in newgrf ages ago
14:30<Pikka>yes
14:30<andythenorth>game balancing is severely over-rated
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>airports are a giant pain because you can't define the time spent in the waiting loop
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>so you can't coordinate landing/takeoff order
14:30<andythenorth>IH has running costs of $6/year for engines, yet the NCG game with it was fun
14:30<Pikka>oui
14:31<andythenorth>shall I have rouge or blanc?
14:31<Pikka>why not both?
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>and letting the planes figure it out themselves never works properly
14:31<Pikka>where's mine?
14:31<Pikka>eddi: what we need is some kind of, I don't know...
14:32<Pikka>newgrf defined airports with smart holding patterns? :)
14:32<andythenorth>Pikka: I have pink too
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>you get 5 planes landing, then they block each other on the airport, then you get 5 planes taking off, then the airport is empty, but already 5 planes looping
14:32<andythenorth>moar airports?
14:32<Pikka>moar airprots
14:32<Pikka>but not richk's half-baked hard-coded things
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>no, more like "airport arrival/departure timetables"
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>who was that dude with the airport-design minigame?
14:33<andythenorth>frosch123: I conclude most of those features are useful
14:33<andythenorth>I even hate autorefit less these days :P
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>that place has been taken over by cargodist? :p
14:34<andythenorth>somewhat
14:34<andythenorth>it's just frustrating sometimes
14:35<andythenorth>so much attention paid to not changing newgrf spec
14:35<andythenorth>but massive adjustments to gameplay pop up out of the blue
14:35<andythenorth>causing nearly-done newgrfs to be redone from scratch :P
14:35<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=38709&hilit=airport+game
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, that.
14:36<andythenorth>incidentally we are way too scared of breaking newgrfs
14:36<andythenorth>they're mostly rubbish anyway :P
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what do you mean? loads of grf spec changes happen
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>entire 1.2 openttd was pure newgrf spec revolt
14:37<andythenorth>and loads don't
14:38<andythenorth>hmm
14:38<andythenorth>can't name any :P
14:38<Pikka>what needs changing in the spec, though?
14:38<Pikka>nothing broken about newgrf...
14:38-!-Lacsap [~Lacsap@modemcable157.188-82-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd
14:38<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r26394 trunk/src/lang/english.txt (2014-03-08 19:38:50 UTC)
14:38<@DorpsGek>-Fix[FS#5939]: Don't explain "symmetric" cargodist mode when the setting does not allow it.
14:39<andythenorth>stations at water industries?
14:39<andythenorth>eh, not much else
14:39*andythenorth back to trucks
14:40<frosch123>Pikka: the problem is that was i was not able to explain https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VehicleRefitting#Misc._vehicle_flag_5_.27use_of_capacity_multiplier_for_default_cargo.27_set to andy
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14:41<Pikka>hm
14:41<Pikka>I can explain it in four words
14:41<Pikka>"don't set that bit" :D
14:42<frosch123>you should rather explain it as "always set that bit"
14:42<frosch123>:p
14:42<andythenorth>is that the thing where nml is not doing the right thing?
14:42*andythenorth can't remember
14:42<frosch123>yes, nml does not support it
14:42<Pikka>oh
14:43<frosch123>it is consistent, but complicated :p
14:43<Pikka>well
14:43<Pikka>nml not doing the right thing is hardly newgrf's fault ;)
14:44<frosch123>alternative solution would have been to remove callback 15 or 36 for capacity :p
14:44<andythenorth>every time this comes up, my head aches :)
14:44<frosch123>drink more coffee
14:45<Pikka>or more plonk
14:46<Pikka>okay, maybe you do set that bit, if you have a weird default cargo
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14:47<frosch123>just make a industry grf which does not use cargo id 1 :p
14:47<Pikka>perhaps
14:48<Pikka>but once you're past that, you should be using the refitted capacity callback, so the default multipliers, and so 2/3rds of that chart, should be irrelevent.
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14:48<frosch123>see, i recommend the reverse
14:49<frosch123>capacity multipliers are a good thing and subject of the industry grf
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14:50<Pikka>well, the default multipliers are a bit silly. and not consistent with the default vehicles.
14:51<Pikka>a train passenger wagon doesn't carry 4 times as many units as a train coal wagon.
14:51<Xaroth|Work>depends if it's american or not
14:52<Pikka>or, for a more comparable example, a default goods van doesn't carry twice as many units as a default food van
14:52<Pikka>so why should my refittable van carry twice as many units of goods as food? :P
14:52<andythenorth>hysterical raisins?
14:53<Pikka>but they're unhysterical raisins
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>i guess the multipliers were meant ot simulate cargo volume
14:53<andythenorth>I got spanked in my last game
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>but they fail at that
14:53<Xaroth|Work>Pikka: it depends on what the units are
14:53<andythenorth>I built *loads* (hundreds) of supply trucks without noticing that the 30t capacity was falling to 15t when refitted
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>like you cannot fit 1 ton of car into the same space as 1 ton of coal
14:54<Xaroth|Work>much more liquid goes into 1m3 than in 1 litre
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>at night it's colder than outside
14:55<Pikka>about a thousand times, xaroth, but what's that got to do with the price of chickens?
14:55<Xaroth|Work>the price of a liquid chicken is different than a m3 of chicken? :)
14:56<andythenorth>there are no chickens, only livestock
14:56<andythenorth>stop talking about chickens
14:56<Pikka>there's nobody here but us livestock
14:57<andythenorth>livestock comes as 'items'
14:57<Xaroth|Work>I prefer mine liquid though
14:57<Pikka>must be breakfast time
14:57<andythenorth>some of those TTD chickens are really heavy btw
14:57<Pikka>concrete chickens (x5)
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>should replace the capacity multipliers with values for "area" and "volume" of one cargo unit
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>like 1 crate would usually take up the "area" space, coal would use up the "weight" space, and wool would take up the "volume" space
14:59<andythenorth>also number of heads
14:59<Pikka>this is all starting to sound like realism talk
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>possibly, but if we don't specify it, authors will just come up with their own scheme, and different schemes won't be compatible
15:01<andythenorth>unicorns!
15:01<andythenorth>drop bears!
15:02<andythenorth>less realism
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>play NUTS!
15:13<Pikka>Eddi|zuHause, "a road/rail vehicle holds approximately 30 units of cargo"
15:13<Pikka>seems to be everyone's scheme, and working okay so far ;)
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>i think i have special rules for passengers and mail, and other vehicles it's mostly based on weight
15:15<Pikka>well, there you go
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>so i have axle weight*number of axles minus wagon weight = capacity
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15:15<Pikka>the fact is it doesn't really matter
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>but for some cargos it feels "wrong"
15:15<Pikka>so you run four wagons instead of five
15:15<Pikka>definitely realism talk :P
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>especially "cars" and "supplies"
15:18<Pikka>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Vert_A_Pac%282%29.jpg how many cars fit in a car wagon? :P
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: yes, that's like a special wagon then, which is silly to model if you don't restrict car capacity in "normal" wagons
15:22*andythenorth is stuck
15:22<Pikka>stuck doing what?
15:22<andythenorth>express trucks
15:22<Pikka>implied trucks
15:22<andythenorth>and talking on the phone to my mum
15:22<Pikka>why have express trucks? are there even such things?
15:23<andythenorth>mail, armoured crap
15:23<Pikka>oh, those express trucks
15:23<andythenorth>yeah
15:23<Pikka>put 'em in the curry
15:23<Pikka>or a normal box truck
15:24<andythenorth>hah
15:24<andythenorth>actually all is fine
15:29<andythenorth> I got confused by trams
15:29<andythenorth>hmm
15:29<andythenorth>containers
15:30<andythenorth>yair
15:30<andythenorth>Squid the container ships have a speed advantage
15:31<andythenorth>IH the container wagons have a capacity advantage
15:31<andythenorth>what to do with a container truck?
15:34<Taede>loading speed?
15:34<frosch123>stack them on top of each other
15:34<frosch123>and disallow travlling under bridges and in tunnels
15:34<frosch123>or so
15:35<andythenorth>ha ha
15:35<andythenorth>you just gave me a railtype idea for IH
15:35<andythenorth>not so much for trucks though :P
15:36<andythenorth>I could do high loading speed
15:36<frosch123>broad gauge with two containers in parralel?
15:36<andythenorth>but nobody ever knows about loading speed
15:36<Pikka>why do they need an advantage?
15:36<andythenorth>because don't know
15:36<andythenorth>because IH and Squid?
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>didn't somebody try to do a "Breitspur" set?
15:38<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, xussr does so. afaik
15:38<frosch123>with broad gauge you can fix all the scaling issues :p
15:38<@planetmaker>good evening also :)
15:38<Pikka>there are scaling issues?
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: no, not that kind of broad gauge. the nazi-german plan to do like a 3m gauge
15:39<frosch123>vehicles being more broad than high and long and such
15:39<Pikka>that'
15:39<Pikka>s
15:39<Pikka>an issue? :P
15:39<frosch123>sometimes :p
15:39<frosch123>mostly for those who render
15:39<andythenorth>hmm
15:40<frosch123>they make highly detailed models, which are then rendered into 5 pixels ro so
15:40<andythenorth>Pikka because simply higher capacity for container truck?
15:40<Pikka>perhaps
15:40<andythenorth>or meh
15:40<Pikka>frosch: why do they do that?
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breitspurbahn_(Nationalsozialismus)
15:40<frosch123>no idea, i guess they like 3d modelling
15:41<frosch123>some people also use ottd like paint
15:41<frosch123>to build sceneries
15:41<Pikka>some people are silly
15:42<andythenorth>oic
15:42<andythenorth>IH and Squid are inconsistents
15:43<frosch123>is that a good thing?
15:43<frosch123>more variety?
15:44<andythenorth>container ships refit to more cargos than container wagons
15:44<andythenorth>so your containers arrive at a port, but don't go anywhere :P
15:44<andythenorth>except it's just a game of course
15:44<andythenorth>I think those should be kind of consistent
15:45<Pikka>the containers get unpacked at the port perhaps?
15:45<andythenorth>praps
15:45<Pikka>look, a shi(p/t) plan - http://i.imgur.com/70pLqH5.png
15:45<andythenorth>lovely
15:46<andythenorth>no canal boats?
15:46<Pikka>no canal boats
15:46<Pikka>very originalshipslike
15:47<Pikka>now I just need to steal sprites from squid and I'll be done in an afternoon :D
15:47<andythenorth>on with you then
15:47<andythenorth>there are plenty in FISH as well, not all used in Squid
15:48<Pikka>hmm
15:48<Pikka>the difference in size between those fishing boats is negligable, actually
15:48<Pikka>I should change that
15:48<Pikka>or get rid of one of them :D
15:50<andythenorth>just have one
15:50<andythenorth>I found that you could live with just one
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>one of the troubles i had with FISH was to find a train that had the exact same size as a ship and vice versa
15:50<andythenorth>but small and big are nice too, if you're having 30 ships
15:50<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: +1
15:50<andythenorth>I stopped caring
15:50<andythenorth>but agree
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>because if they don't match exactly, you have problems with transfering
15:51<andythenorth>I accepted waste :P
15:51<Pikka>andythenorth: if we had "load to at least 85%" orders, right...?
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>"load more than 1 unit of cargo"
15:52<andythenorth>Pikka: never gonna happen
15:52<andythenorth>use conditional orders
15:52<andythenorth>go all the way to a dock on shore, check how much load you have, go back for more
15:52<andythenorth>or less
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>one day i implement this "check whether next order is same as this one before leaving" idea
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>that would solve the partial loading thing with conditional orders
15:53<andythenorth>conditional orders have been provided, so you must use them
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15:53<andythenorth>there can be no alternatives
15:53<frosch123>and break self regulating networks or so :p
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: yes. they scare me :p
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: and change block signals to only consider valid paths, to break priorities, while at it :p
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but you can just use waypoints to handle the self regulating network
15:55<andythenorth>transporting valuables in curtain-side trucks!
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: if you're loading at an implicit order, the check would always fail
15:55<andythenorth>no problem with that :P
15:55<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, that's insane. But then... if Nationalsozialismus comes into play, it often is
15:56<andythenorth>does anyone ever use the *tractors* in HEQS?
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15:56<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the only HEQS vehicles i ever used was the Mog, the trams and one or two wood trucks
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but that's fine, because HEQS is supposed to fill these niche roles, not the "mainstream" truck roals
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>*roles
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16:00<andythenorth>so I have 40 trucks, buses and trams
16:00<andythenorth>Pikka can't manage your ruthlessness :P
16:00<@planetmaker>HEQS isn't supposed to be streamline :)
16:00<andythenorth>this is 'new'
16:01<@planetmaker>It's supposed to be "oh that kind of weired"
16:01<andythenorth>you can also mix with HEQS if you wish ;)
16:01<@planetmaker>pew. I thought you were taking the big sword and cut away on HEQS :)
16:01<andythenorth>nah
16:01<andythenorth>HEQS is HEQS
16:02<andythenorth>it's done, except it needs a bug fix
16:07<andythenorth>also bed time
16:07<andythenorth>Pikka chops here tomorrow?
16:08<Pikka>roughly
16:08<andythenorth>k
16:08<andythenorth>bye all
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16:29<Phreeze>1 more coding and the Diesels are finally done...
16:30<Phreeze>then comes setting of running and purchase costs....arf....
16:30<Phreeze>and fixing pixel errors
16:31<@planetmaker>creating a newgrf is little work. Maintaining is the pain ;)
16:31<Phreeze>what must be maintained ?
16:32<Phreeze>do functions or so change ?
16:33<@planetmaker>no, ususally not. I meant basically that work which you described
16:33<@planetmaker>fine-tuning. fixing the pesky bugs the pesky users find and complain about etc pp
16:33<Supercheese>Hmm, I haven't had almost any bug reports in my few grfs...
16:33<Supercheese>they're pretty small though
16:34<@planetmaker>the actual maintenance is little. Like adding the small but useful additions which sometimes emerge
16:34<Supercheese>I am rather lazy in the additions I've promised, though :P
16:35<Phreeze>lol
16:35<@planetmaker>yeah. Make sure that you're not swamped with requests :D
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17:03<Phreeze>*prepares some feature demands for supercheese*
17:03<Supercheese>O_o
17:03<Phreeze>[22:35:57] @planetmaker )) yeah. Make sure that you're not swamped with requests :D
17:09<__ln__>he's already working on a high-priority project that'll guarantee great sales figures for openttd in the roman empire.
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17:16<@planetmaker>indeed.... how's that translation going, Supercheese ?
17:16<@planetmaker>Dice, quot est tuum progressum?
17:20<Supercheese>eh... non laboravi hoc anno; pensum magnum universitats obstabat
17:20<Supercheese>universitatis*
17:20<Supercheese>Hmm, I doubt the Romans used semicolons, I wonder when those were "invented"
17:21<Supercheese>1494 it seems
17:21<@planetmaker>oh, tristis audiens
17:21<Supercheese>Hah, this is an amazing figure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SemicolonFreq.png
17:21<Supercheese>"A graph showing the frequency of semicolon use in English between 1500 and 2008"
17:22<@planetmaker>omnie annu?
17:23<frosch123>Supercheese: that clearly does not take programming languages into consideration
17:23<Supercheese>:D
17:24<Supercheese>Well, spring break is next week for me, I'll make some time then
17:24<@planetmaker>:)
17:26<@planetmaker>Omnia orbs expectant ludus in latinam :)
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17:33<Supercheese>Laetificor hoc audire
17:36<frosch123>@op
17:36-!-mode/#openttd [+o frosch123] by DorpsGek
17:36-!-frosch123 changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.4.0-beta5, 1.3.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | #openttd.dev for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices
17:37<@frosch123>@deop
17:37-!-mode/#openttd [-o frosch123] by DorpsGek
17:39<__ln__>solum anglicus?
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>did the romans really have a name for that language that would later become english?
17:46<frosch123>sure
17:47<frosch123>roman emporors were mostly travellers from the future
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>i mean anglian was probably some early danish dialect and saxon some early lower german dialect
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>and it displaced the gaelic dialects that the population of britain probably spoke (i don't think latin was actually that widespread around the population)
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>(the old saxon that formed the foundation of english has no relation whatsoever with the modern day saxon, as not the saxon people moved, but the name "saxony" moved)
18:02<Wolf01>'night
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18:05<Phreeze>wtf
18:05<Phreeze>people speaking latin...
18:17<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> creating a newgrf is little work. Maintaining is the pain ;) <-- any software development lecture will tell you that maintenance is 90% of the work
18:22<Eddi|zuHause> <Supercheese> Hah, this is an amazing figure: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SemicolonFreq.png <-- the most interesting thing in there is that the early sample size is too low to get useful figures out of them, which balances out somewhere around 1700
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>the bump after 2000 is probably winky smilies :p
18:25-!-sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@95.76.164.39] has quit []
18:30<Phreeze>^^
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>also it probably only counts printed books, not hand-written books, and especially nothing from roman times
18:34<Phreeze>still, they didn't use it so much
18:34<Phreeze>it's useless anyway :D
18:34<Phreeze>we didn't even learn it at school
18:34<Phreeze>it's Schmarrn
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>maybe your schools are just bad? :p
18:36<Phreeze>nope ;)
18:36<Phreeze>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJwv67vfogQ
18:36<Phreeze>watching those "extreme trains" series
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>which language do your schools teach in, anyway?
18:36<Phreeze>really cool, but the guy is hyperactive xD
18:36<Phreeze>german
18:36<Phreeze>and later, french
18:37<frosch123>i definitely used ; in school
18:37<Phreeze>and/or german, depends
18:37<frosch123>anyway, do you also have a usage chart for @
18:37<Phreeze>@, for emails xD
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>or "#"
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>or "~"
18:37<Phreeze>ñ ? ;)
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>nobody in englushed used "~" before win95 :)
18:38<Phreeze>was zum henker lernt ihr da..
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>*english used*
18:38<Pinkbeast>cd ~damerell
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>Pinkbeast: nobody uses linux :p
18:39<Phreeze><- works in IT, uses windows everywhere xd
18:39<frosch123>yeah, only weirdos use linux
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>Phreeze: that's used in spanish, but not in english
18:39<Phreeze>(k, my server running my mailserver is ubuntu...)
18:39<frosch123>they probably even play train games
18:39<Phreeze>i know eddi ;)
18:40<Phreeze>i speak 5 languages^^
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>Phreeze: Angeber :p
18:40<Phreeze>*understand
18:40<Phreeze>speaking/writing only 4
18:40<Phreeze>my spanish is limited to 2 years in school..
18:40<frosch123>i can read greek and cyrillic, does that count?
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>that is pretty much the same here
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: if by "read" you mean "decipher the letters"?
18:41<Phreeze>greek and cyrillic....woooot
18:41<Phreeze>read = understand what you read ^^
18:41<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yes, decipher
18:41<Phreeze>i can decipher Ultima Runes ^^
18:41<frosch123>but that is enough for navigating software
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>my russian vocabulary probably consists of 5 words
18:42<Phreeze>da
18:42<Phreeze>niet
18:42<Phreeze>vodka
18:42<Phreeze>nastrowie
18:42<Phreeze>kurwa
18:42<Phreeze>or so...
18:42<Pinkbeast>Linux didn't exist the first time I typed cd ~
18:42<Phreeze>Pinkbeast must be 90...
18:43<Pinkbeast>That would follow because... wait, what?
18:44<frosch123>maybe the world was created in 90...
18:45<Phreeze>world (and USA) was created 2014 years ago
18:45<Phreeze>:D i saw it on the internet ;)
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>Phreeze: when the russian military pulled out of germany, we had a russian woman living with us for a while, who wasn't really fond of moving to Murmansk with her husband, and she used the word "kuschei" a lot (which means something like "eat!"). and us kids would always reply with "se" :p
18:46<Phreeze>se, which would say: GTFO ^^
18:46<Phreeze>??
18:46<Phreeze>hm caracters not displaying...mirc is too old...
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you have to speak the words outloud together :)
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>tip: it's not a russian word :)
18:48<Phreeze>ah omg
18:48<Phreeze>late in the evening...but must finish that trains episode^^
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18:53<PhreeZZZZzzzz><-bed
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18:55<@planetmaker>oh no... away nicks :P
18:55-!-frosch123 is now known as frosch_awake
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>PhreeZZZZzzzz: how can you suffer watching this for more than 2 minutes?
18:57<frosch_awake>away nicks are so pessimistic
18:57<frosch_awake>everyone should have around nicks
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18:59<Eddi|zuHause><- what do you think this is? :p
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19:07<LordAro>i think i've only seen a non 'zuHause' once :L
19:08<frosch_awake>have you seen the Eddi|zuHause2 ?
19:10-!-planetmaker is now known as planetmaker|Fjordmaking
19:10<@planetmaker|Fjordmaking>yeah, pretty nice :P
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19:13<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: yeah, that's when i use another computer
19:14<LordAro>planetmaker: xchat is now aligning nicks horribly :p
19:14<LordAro>i fear this will stay this way until you drop off the scrollback :L
19:15<@planetmaker>I know :)
19:15<@planetmaker>just re-align it :P
19:15<@planetmaker>you can manually re-adjust
19:16<LordAro>yeah, but then 'you' overlap with the date :L
19:17<@planetmaker>you'll figure out the time of that single statement from the context ;)
19:18<LordAro>:p
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22:36<Phr>nothing in here now?
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23:33<Supercheese>Hm, 9 strings pending commit
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---Logclosed Sun Mar 09 00:00:48 2014