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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-03-22

---Logopened Sat Mar 22 00:00:41 2014
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03:50<andythenorth>o/
03:50<Taede>moin
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04:24<andythenorth>hmm
04:24<andythenorth>buses and pax trams
04:24<andythenorth>about which I don’t really care :P
04:26<Taede>just think of em as sardine-trucks n trams
04:27<andythenorth>@seen pikka
04:27<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 16 hours, 25 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: <Pikka> the long answer is nnnnnnooooo. or possibly copy&pastepatch.
04:35<Flygon>I'm going to assume that there's no TBRS for the UK Road Set?
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04:42<V453000>Flygon: newbridges work with it
04:42<V453000>+-
04:44<Flygon>Never heard of newbridges
04:45-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd
04:46<andythenorth>I count 34 default road vehicles 1929-2050
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04:46<andythenorth>might vary by climate
04:47<andythenorth>37 in tropic
04:47<andythenorth>my RV set has 40 vehicles for 1870-2050
04:47<andythenorth>dare I say, it might not be enough? :o
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05:32<Flygon>Bugger it
05:32<Flygon>I'll just use US roads and have no Dutch Roadset furnature
05:33-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host58-55-dynamic.182-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
05:34<Wolf01>hello! o/
05:39<Flygon>Howdy!
05:39<Flygon>You're a Wolf! :O
05:39<Flygon>I'm a Flygon!
05:39<Flygon>We both like transport management!
05:50<Wolf01>the only transport I like is the one which brings the food to my mouth :D
06:00<Flygon>Uuuuh
06:01<Flygon>Not sure you're on the right IRC network then :P
06:02<Wolf01>but I like trains .)
06:02<Wolf01>*:)
06:07<Flygon>I'd continue this discussion in the direction that's running in my mind, but I have truly no idea if we're on the same page
06:08<andythenorth>on the internet, no-one knows if you’re a dog
06:08<Flygon>I really AM a trademarked circa. 2003 creature typing on a keyboard!
06:10<Wolf01>pfff I'm a wolf using the computer since 1997
06:13<Flygon>Man
06:13<Flygon>We have much to discuss!
06:13*Flygon places Wolf01 on his back and, like, buzzes about
06:13<Flygon>Us aircraft need floofy blankets for them high altitudes!
06:36-!-Pikka [~Octomom@d58-111-70-207.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd
06:39<andythenorth>lo bob
06:41<Pikka>you have trucks?
06:41<andythenorth>not so much
06:41<andythenorth>I have the appearance of trucks :P
06:42<Pikka>mmmmm trucks
06:42<andythenorth>all stats are same
06:42<Pikka>trucks trucks trucks trucks trucks
06:42<andythenorth>Pikka: how many buses and tramses 1870-202?
06:42<andythenorth>2020*
06:42<Pikka>I thought you had different trucks with the same appearance?
06:42<andythenorth>I advanced from there
06:42<Pikka>to the same trucks with different appearances?
06:42<andythenorth>yes
06:42<andythenorth>mostly opengfx-ish :P
06:43<Pikka>I don't know. a generation every 20 years or so?
06:43<andythenorth>probly
06:43<andythenorth>default game manages with 4
06:44<Pikka>hmm
06:44<Pikka>I have a generation every 30 years
06:44<Pikka>but eh
06:45<Pikka>trucks are just there to fill in the fiddly bits between trains
06:45<Pikka>and to give AIs something easy to build
06:46<andythenorth>trucks are there because too much station walking is shameful
06:46<andythenorth>64 is really the upper limit for station size :P
06:47<andythenorth>is big and small buses a thing? I think not
06:47<andythenorth>also fast and slow buses, not a thing?
06:47<andythenorth>just bus and newer bus?
06:47<Pikka>big and slow "busses", small and fast "coaches"
06:48<andythenorth>if you need coaches, build a train :P
06:48<Pikka>well
06:48<Pikka>smaller towns and suchlike
06:48<Pikka>minor links
06:48<andythenorth>helichopchops!
06:48<Pikka>or for use as buses if speed is more important than capacity
06:48<Pikka>helichopchops are silly
06:49<andythenorth>I will leave this one coach in my list :P
06:49<andythenorth>as you have failed to kill it
06:50<Pikka>eh
06:50<Pikka>trams, buses, coaches, trucks, four categories :P
06:55<andythenorth>Pikka: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/5909/hog-4.png
06:56<Pikka>many trucks
06:56<Pikka>should do 32bpp ez graphics :)
06:56<andythenorth>:P
06:56<andythenorth>dunno about teeny-tiny scale
06:57<andythenorth>I kind of like the stupid oversized default vehicles
06:57<andythenorth>the HEQS sprites were drawn more HOVSish iirc
06:57<andythenorth>(the trams, not the mining trucks)
06:57<andythenorth>trams are pretty teeny tiny I guess
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06:59<Pikka>I haven't done any "proper" rvs yet in 32bpp
06:59<Pikka>just a couple of town cars
06:59<Pikka>they're tiny :P
07:00<andythenorth>consistent scale is over-rated :P
07:00<andythenorth>bigger RVs are cute
07:00<andythenorth>ymmv
07:00<andythenorth>:P
07:00<Pikka>yeah but
07:00<andythenorth>exactly
07:00<Pikka>what about when you want to put road vehicles onna train?
07:02<andythenorth>is true
07:02<andythenorth>get a bigga train
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07:18<Pikka>what about scaled airships
07:19<Pikka>should be about 20 tiles long
07:19<Pikka>at least
07:20<Pikka>or perhaps 8
07:20<Pikka>http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/images/2/22/Airshipsize.png
07:25<andythenorth>trains on airships?
07:26<andythenorth>Pikka: maybe they are personal zellepin scale? http://www.personalblimp.com
07:27<Pikka>maybe
07:28<Pikka>"With a few performance tweaks, we should be able to get to almost 20 miles per hour."
07:28<Pikka>this is a good choice for OpenTTD
07:30<Pikka>sillyplanes
07:30<Pikka>there was a plane crash near here today... they managed to find this one fairly quickly... :/
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07:32<andythenorth>how is gamescript? o_O
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07:36<Pikka>it isn't, it's a monorail
07:36<Pikka>I suppose I could gamescript instead...
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07:49<V453000>scale =D <3
07:52<andythenorth>bye
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07:53<frosch123>'Open the console with the tilde "`" key.'
07:54<Pikka>near enough
07:54<frosch123>keyboard layouts are the best :)
07:55<frosch123>anyway, an ai for just-in-time vehicle order assignment is a funny new interpretation how to play ottd :)
07:55<Pikka>I'm not sure how much feedback he'll get, because I don't think it's something anyone but him wants.
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08:56<peter1139>Some people think that ` is actually a tilde now... :S
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08:58<Pikka>some people think a lot of things
09:00<Xaroth|Work>and worse, some people don't think at all
09:02<Pikka>hmm
09:03<Pikka>I've never met anyone who thinks that ` is a tilde, but then I suppose I don't meet many people who use UK keyboards
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09:11<Eddi|zuHause>everyone knows that you open the console with the ^ key
09:11<Pikka>is ^ a tilde?
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>(which is commonly known as "roof")
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>(or german: "Dach")
09:13<Pikka>I think I'll call it a tilde
09:14<@Alberth>good idea :)
09:14<@Alberth>or back-tick ` :)
09:14<Pikka>I actually call ` a grave and ^ a caret, even though that's not technically correct.
09:16<@Alberth>as long as everybody understands what you mean :)
09:17<Pikka>I'll usually settle for anyone knowing what I mean
09:17<Pikka>myself included
09:17<@Alberth>sounds like a useful feature ;)
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09:19<@peter1138>apparently i ctrl
09:20<@peter1138>^s'd irssi
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09:35<Xaroth|Work>o_O
09:35<Xaroth|Work>useful :P
09:40<@peter1138>Also my dog will eat from a fork... o_O
09:41<frosch123>your labrathor?
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10:23<krinn>hi guys
10:25<krinn>i wonder if one of you be kind to run a savegame provided as he have tons of newgrfs i couldn't fetch from content download. So who have the most bloat openttd there ?
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10:43<fjb>Moin
10:50<krinn>hi and bye fjb :)
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10:50<lugo>hi krinn , i told you i can send them over :)
10:51<frosch123>you guys have excellent timing :)
10:51<lugo>oops
10:51<lugo>;)
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11:57<@planetmaker>hello
11:58<frosch123>hola
11:58<frosch123>spbot has a hard time today
11:58<frosch123>lots of chances to insult people :)
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12:11<SpComb>frosch123: yeah... and me as well
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14:07<@planetmaker>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/9DM6Z6uzq16GG0iqMw8w/ <-- musa doesn't like a license.txt when one specifies explicitly a license in musa.ini? And why does it output the stuff twice?
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14:22<fjb>Can I somehow limit the argument of a template in C++? template<typename T> where T must inherit from class X.
14:22<@Alberth>o/, unfortunately, I know nothing about musa :(
14:23<@Alberth>fjb: never read about that, but perhaps in c++11??
14:24<@Alberth>otherwise, just assign it to a pointer of the base class, and it will break on instantiation :p
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14:24<fjb>:P
14:24<@Alberth>templates are intended to be checked on instantiation anyway, unlike eg java
14:24<frosch123>fjb: there are a bunch of magical template thingies in boost
14:25<frosch123>which can check such stuff
14:25<fjb>It is not that important, but would have been nice to make it more typesafe.
14:25<@Alberth>lol, c++ and type-safe :)
14:25<fjb>frosch123: Thanks, but I try to avoid boost and stl.
14:26<fjb>Alberth: It is way better than C.
14:26<@planetmaker>o/ an fjb :)
14:26<fjb>Moin planetmaker
14:27<frosch123>Alberth: good point. fjb: just put a static_cast somwhere in the constructor
14:27<frosch123>static_cast fails if it cannot be resolved on compile time
14:27<fjb>Thank you frosch123
14:29*fjb thinks "The C++ programming language" 2. edition is a bit outdated.
14:31<@Alberth>a 17 year old book in computer science? that sounds likely :)
14:31<frosch123>planetmaker: i believe you have to add them via "license =" in the ini
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14:31<frosch123>check the example.ini
14:32<@planetmaker>license = docs/license.txt in my ini
14:32<@planetmaker>so not adding it again possibly?
14:32<@planetmaker>I'll check
14:32<frosch123>then do not put it onto the command line?
14:32<@planetmaker>that looks better
14:33<@planetmaker>works nicely :)
14:36<@planetmaker>but I guess *that* was what I always stumbled about. Without actually noticing
14:36<@planetmaker>darn :)
14:36<fjb>Alberth: It is not my oldest book in computer science still in use.
14:37<@Alberth>hi fjb btw, I have older books too :) the Dragon book comes to mind :)
14:37<@Alberth>or the sgml standard? :)
14:38<@Alberth>although I don't personally use it :)
14:38<__ln___>what advances have there been in computer *science* within the past 17 years?
14:40<@Alberth>model-based engineering?
14:40<fjb>Alberth: Yes, the dragon book, but "The Art of Computer Programming" volume 1 is hardly to beat.
14:41<@Alberth>true
14:43<frosch123>__ln___: valgrind
14:43<@Alberth>making virtual machines like the JVM feasible
14:43<Kjetil>__ln___: We got all there great new portals for sharing scientic information like twitter and snapchat
14:44<Kjetil>s/there/these/
14:44<frosch123>Kjetil: not sure whether that qualifies as "science" :p
14:45<frosch123>but i guess cloud infrastructure would qualify
14:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26418 /trunk/src/lang (hungarian.txt simplified_chinese.txt) (2014-03-22 18:45:15 UTC)
14:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<Kjetil>cloud infrastructure ? That's just a fancy name for a mainframe
14:45<@DorpsGek>simplified_chinese - 7 changes by xiangyigao
14:45<@DorpsGek>hungarian - 9 changes by Brumi
14:45<frosch123>Kjetil: i am refering to stuff like the chaos monkey
14:45<fjb>frosch123: Cloud is just another name from main frame.
14:49<__ln___>which of the things mentioned are computer *science*?
14:50<@Alberth>all of them
14:54<frosch123>just-in-time-compilation is quite an advancement
14:54<frosch123>if you are refering to less technological stuff like algorihtms
14:54<frosch123>they have never been a computer thing
14:54<frosch123>but rather math or physics things
14:58<@Alberth>generic parsing technology is in that area
14:59<@Alberth>and large scale distributed algorithms for the internet and mobile phone networks
15:06<@planetmaker>were there dvcs 17 years ago?
15:06<Kjetil>how is JIT and advancement ?
15:07<@planetmaker>that's an exercise for the interested student to find out ^
15:07<@Alberth>it didn't exist 17 years ago? :)
15:07<@planetmaker>and ask all those guys in the forums who ask on how to apply a patch :)
15:07<@planetmaker>and what to do with it when they have applied ti
15:08<frosch123>i believe the valgrind has completely changed development on the native code level (not java or something)
15:09<frosch123>in fact valgrind is pretty high on the list of things why windows has no chance of survival in the long run
15:09<@planetmaker>virtualization might not have been a big thing 17yrs ago either. And has tremendous influence
15:09<@planetmaker>frosch123, why? (genuinely interested question)
15:10<frosch123>it's infinitely harder to develop and debug something for windows
15:10<frosch123>compared what you get for free for linux based things
15:10<frosch123>the only thing you can do for windows is c# or maybe java
15:10<@planetmaker>that doesn't mean linux will succeed. Or it would have long ago
15:11<frosch123>maybe ms will somewhen drop the native code interface, switch to a linux kernal and only do c#
15:11<@Alberth>planetmaker: unix exists longer than windows :)
15:11<@planetmaker>does valgrind work for android or iOS?
15:11<frosch123>planetmaker: i think it is only a matter of time till apply drops their own unix variant for switching to a linux kernel
15:12<@planetmaker>Alberth, yes. And thus I don't quite get the argument "compiling / debuggin on windows is more difficult, thus windows will die"
15:12<frosch123>there is just no economical advantage in developing your own kernel
15:12<@Alberth>frosch123: the bsd stuff is fine too
15:12<frosch123>cmopared to using linux
15:12<frosch123>s/apply/apple/
15:13<fjb>Virtualization is really old: VM/CMS
15:15<@Alberth>planetmaker: neither do i, but so far unix is more flexible in its operation than windows. and no matter what, as company you cannot compete against all that free developer time in open source
15:16<@planetmaker>most core developers and contributors are also employed by companies who take an interest in linux' success
15:16<@planetmaker>who make their living with that
15:16<fjb>Alberth: They compete in the marketing area.
15:17<frosch123>planetmaker: and, does any of those companies put the pinguin on their front page?
15:17<frosch123>the kernel is not something you show to your customers
15:17<frosch123>it's just something that needs to be done as cheap as possible
15:17<frosch123>then you can add your own fancy stuff on top of it
15:17<@Alberth>it has a "intel inside" sticker :p
15:18<Phreeze>21 points in kicktipp so far, wooooooooohooooooooooo
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15:19<@planetmaker>ok, right, there's no penguin anywhere on the major distribution sites :)
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15:20-!-planetmaker is "Ingo von Borstel" on @#openttd @#openttdcoop.stable #debian #openttdcoop.devzone @+#openttdcoop #oftc @+#openttdcoop.dev #openttdcoop.bots @+#openttdcoop.nightly +#openDune +#openttd.dev @+#coopetition
15:20<frosch123>alt+w :p
15:20<@Alberth>no need to get that scared :p
15:20<frosch123>or ctrl+w ?
15:20<@planetmaker>ctrl+w :P
15:20<frosch123>i actually have no idea, only my hands know
15:21<@planetmaker>I even added that shortcut to OpenTTD ;)
15:21<frosch123>where?
15:21<frosch123>do we have tabs in ottd?
15:21<@planetmaker>when you're playing it'll bring you back to main menu
15:21<@planetmaker>ctrl+w means 'close current window / tab'
15:21<@Alberth>frosch123: the station window, and the vehicle have sort-of tabs
15:21<@planetmaker>ctrl+q means 'close current programme'
15:22<@planetmaker>thus will quit Openttd altogether
15:22<Kjetil>To bad valgrind is not supported on all architectures
15:23<frosch123>that's what i was refering to
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15:24<@planetmaker>https://packages.debian.org/wheezy/valgrind <-- supported on quite a few architectures
15:24<@planetmaker>arm, i386, x64, ppc
15:24<Kjetil>In contrast to linux which runs on 25+ archs
15:25<frosch123>i don't think debian supports all those 25 :p
15:26<@planetmaker>[alpha] [amd64] [arm] [arm64] [armel] [armhf] [avr32] [hppa] [hurd-i386] [i386] [ia64] [kfreebsd-amd64] [kfreebsd-i386] [m68k] [mips] [mipsel] [powerpc] [powerpcspe] [ppc64] [s390] [s390x] [sh4] [sparc] [sparc64] [x32] <-- for libpng
15:27<@planetmaker>hm, no, I lied
15:27<@planetmaker>only 13/25
15:28<rubidium>still it's probably the one which supports most architectures
15:29<@Alberth>netbsd will win :)
15:32<Phreeze>all you need is windows ;)
15:32<Phreeze>if it's not for webservers or so ..
15:34<@planetmaker>Phreeze, surprisingly one doesn't really need it
15:34<Phreeze>in our business, we need it
15:34<Phreeze>we even need IE ....
15:34<@planetmaker>I'm usually way too lazy to start windows for *whatever*. The only cases I really need it, at work, suffices to use a VM to run excel or word or powerpoint
15:34<Phreeze>that sucks more ;)
15:35<@planetmaker>and some lab computers. But those are not my machines
15:35<Phreeze>*having to use IE sucks more
15:35<Phreeze>we use lotus domino doc as a document management system
15:35<@planetmaker>though I'm even responsible for some of those...
15:35<Phreeze>this is hell on earth
15:36<@planetmaker>sounds pre-historic :P
15:36<frosch123>lotus does still exist?
15:36<rubidium>planetmaker: that list for libpng only contains 12 architectures (based on the list of Linux supported architectures on wikipedia)
15:36<frosch123>i was already surprised 10 years ago, that it still existed
15:36<Phreeze>oh yeah....
15:37<Phreeze>lotus is the greatest <insert random rant here> on earth
15:37<Phreeze>we are migrating from win xp + lotus 6.5 to win7 + lotus 8
15:37<Phreeze>lotus 8 looks cool enough, is much faster, but still the shiiihaaaaddd
15:37<Phreeze>lotus doc manager doesnt even suppoert win7, support was too dumb to fix bugs for office 2007
15:37<@planetmaker>rubidium, I counted on debian website?
15:38<@planetmaker>for package ligpng in wheezy
15:38<@planetmaker>*libpng
15:38<Phreeze>it's crashing, it's not saving to the server etc...
15:38<Phreeze>http://www.rail.lu/im/g/20050225_3602.jpg <-------- last Electric loco i have to draw/code :D
15:38<rubidium>planetmaker: but amd64, i386 and x32 are one architecture, so are arm, arm64, armel and armhf and the other flavours of certain architectures
15:39<@planetmaker>one can count that way, too, yes
15:39<rubidium>alternatively, one has to say that Linux supports like 40+ architectures
15:39<@Alberth>amd64 really doesn't run anything 32 bit :)
15:40<rubidium>having said that, most of the architectures are more or less defunct
15:40<@planetmaker>it usually has an emulation layer :P
15:40<@Alberth>at least the debian notion of amd64
15:43<rubidium>Alberth: regardless of whether it works, I'm just saying that the 13/25 'ratio' is only because we're comparing apples and pears
15:43<@Alberth>fair enough :)
15:44<rubidium>7/25 would be fairer with respect to supported "architectures" (= released in stable)
15:45<rubidium>having said that, most of the architectures Linux supports are more or less extinct
15:52<@Alberth>"have become exotic" :)
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16:17<Phreeze>hm..is there an option to tell pageant to add or remember my added keys automatically ?
16:20<valhallasw>Phreeze: pass them as parameter
16:20<V453000>how?
16:22<valhallasw>create a shortcut to "c:\path\to\pageant\pageant.exe" "c:\path\to\your\id_rsa.ppk" "someotherfile.ppk" etc.
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16:58<Phreeze>k nice
16:58<Phreeze>but still have to enter the PW then i think ?
17:00<@planetmaker>if your key has a PW, yes.
17:00<frosch123>pw for keys is optional
17:01<frosch123>the key provides the secuity
17:01<frosch123>pw is only in case of random humans may access the physical machine
17:01<Phreeze>if i add the key in pageant, i have to enter a PW !?
17:01<Phreeze>no pw, no adding the key ?
17:01<Phreeze>never tried
17:01<frosch123>(assuming they won't be able to copy the private key to a different machine)
17:05<Phreeze>usually a private key can't be used without a pw
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17:13<@Alberth>if you store your private keys encrypted, indeed
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19:27<Eddi|zuHause>if you don't secure your private key with a passphrase, you probably didn't get the point of a key
19:30<frosch123>why?
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19:31<frosch123>without passphrase you authenticate the machine, rather than the user
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20:06<frosch123>night
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20:12<Wolf01>'night
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20:54<Eddi|zuHause><fjb> Alberth: It is way better than C. <-- it's better in C because it has only one type :p
21:03<Kjetil>I like my types like my creditcards, void
21:22<Eddi|zuHause>if that was a joke, i don't get it.
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---Logclosed Sun Mar 23 00:00:43 2014