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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-03-23

---Logopened Sun Mar 23 00:00:43 2014
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01:05<Supercheese>OTTD has too many tooltips
01:05<Supercheese>it makes translation a very lengthy process
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03:49<@planetmaker>moin moin
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04:01<@planetmaker>hm, no release time. musa doesn't like me and breaks my pipe
04:03<SpComb>kill -PIPE -1
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04:38<andythenorth>CC_NON_POURABLE finally was useful :)
04:39<Supercheese>dump trucks vs non-dump trucks?
04:39<andythenorth>also Pikka hello
04:39<andythenorth>Supercheese: kind of yes
04:39<Pikka>ew non pourable
04:44<Pikka>what cargos are non-pourable? except sugar cane?
04:45<@planetmaker>Pikka, windows
04:45<@planetmaker>antique ceramics
04:46<Pikka>non-pourable is generally a modifier for "bulk"...
04:46<@planetmaker>fish yes, general cattle... they might disagree
04:47<@planetmaker>mail bags?
04:47<Pikka>does it?
04:47<@planetmaker>scrap metal? Or can that be poured
04:48<Pikka>probably that is non-pourable, yes
04:48<Pikka>scrap metal and sugar cane are the two FIRS cargos that I had to make special cases D;
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04:57*Pikka bbanon
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05:09<V453000>to hell with cargo classes! Universal wagons to glory! :D
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05:39<andythenorth>non-refittable classes
05:41<andythenorth>usually I say “never use non-refittable classes"
05:41<andythenorth>because who knows what cargo authors might do, and it risks breaking class compatibility
05:41<andythenorth>I think I should stick to that :P
05:41<@planetmaker>it can have a gameplay purpose. Not going by class. But simply requiring a certain cargo
05:41<@planetmaker>But... meh :)
05:42<andythenorth>I am stopping mining trucks refitting wood etc
05:42<andythenorth>by label
05:42<andythenorth>which won’t break
05:42<andythenorth>I could do it by class :P
05:42<andythenorth>which will break
05:42<@planetmaker>possibly, yes
05:42<@planetmaker>depends whether you care :) Or how classes are used
05:43<andythenorth>I care more about non-breaking than I care about ‘omg, someone is carrying a cargo in a game and andythenorth doesn’t approve’
05:43<@planetmaker>a mining truck can easily exclude non-pourable, I think. As well as piece goods or liquid
05:43<@planetmaker>I agree. If someone transports <whatever> - why would I care. If they don't approve they shouldn't do it :)
05:44<andythenorth>I am sticking to labels
05:44<@planetmaker>that's easy, yes. And reliable
05:44<andythenorth>which will work for the games I play, and everyone else gets classes
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06:11<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> usually I say “never use non-refittable classes" <-- non-refittable classes are fine, as long as it's not circular
06:11<Eddi|zuHause>if you say "A and not B", you can't also say "B and not A"
06:11<Eddi|zuHause>but "A and not B" and "B only" is fine
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>also, WOOD and GOOD are always special cases, as they have weird default classes
06:14*andythenorth wonders if analysis could show whether a specific rev of a set has full coverage
06:15<andythenorth>basically a unit test
06:15<andythenorth>regression test / unit test /s
06:16<andythenorth>I could write that in the compile stage, checking dates and classes, and report on any classes that are unsupported / unintentionally excluded
06:18<andythenorth>could != should
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>not in the compiling stage, but in the code generator stage
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>a simple condition would be "every cargo/class that appears on the 'don't' list, must also appear at a 'do' list without any 'don'ts'
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>a more complicated check could apply this transitively
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>so "A and not B", "B and not C", "C" is valid
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>the first check would discard this as invalid
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>i think i have this case for refrigerated
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>or sheltered?
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>don't remember
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>so, algorithm: 1) find a class that does not have any 'don't' list. 2) remove this class from all 'don't' lists. 3) repeat this, until all 'don't' lists are empty (success) or no suitible class can be found (fail)
06:30*andythenorth considers
06:30<andythenorth>it sounds plausible
06:31<andythenorth>a typical case for me is covered and non-covered hoppers
06:32<andythenorth>or hoppers (pourable bulk only), and open wagons
06:32<andythenorth>currently I just solve it with labels, which is trivial and reliable, but manual
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>hopper -> bulk and not sheltered, boxed, covered hopper -> sheltered and not boxed, bos -> boxed and not [empty]
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>for example
06:35<andythenorth>there is a non-programmatic solution too
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>above algorithm would find "boxed", then "sheltered" (after removing "boxed") and then "bulk"
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>-> valid
06:35<andythenorth>IH always has open wagons, which are universal -> refit anything
06:35<andythenorth>it there’s always a universal wagon, there will never be an orphaned cargo
06:35<andythenorth>if *
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>that is true
06:36<andythenorth>the RV set I’m making doesn’t have a universal truck :P
06:36<andythenorth>maybe it should
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>but then why add any non-universal vehicle?
06:36<@planetmaker>liquids can always be put in barrels. Or ventilation for live cattle
06:36<andythenorth>coal in sacks...
06:37*andythenorth rethinks
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>i'll probably only offer univevrsal wagon for narrow gauge (-> "Rollbock")
06:41<andythenorth>I’ve changed a truck type to refit everything
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07:08<andythenorth>but not realism :(
07:08<andythenorth>oh well
07:08<Pikka>realism is the best
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07:10<andythenorth>which truck is more ‘universal’ ?
07:11<Pikka>probably the curtainside
07:11<@planetmaker>The MAN
07:11<Pikka>who's the MAN?
07:12<@planetmaker>the manufacturer ;) Also found in the URL of the 2nd image
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07:44<Pikka>there's no need to take it so hard
07:45<Pikka>moin fjb
07:47<@planetmaker>heya fjb
07:47<@planetmaker>fjb, you think we find time for a hike in one of the next weekends, provided we'll have good weather?
07:49<andythenorth>Pikka: agreed, curtainside
07:49<andythenorth>coal in sacks :P
07:49<Pikka>or just everything in containers :P
07:50<@planetmaker>containers fit everything :)
07:50<Pikka>I don't think you really need a universal truck though, you just need to make sure all the basic classes are covered
07:50<@planetmaker>passengers, sub-type 'illegal immigrant'
07:52<Pikka>it's never too late to be a coal man
07:57<andythenorth>more andythenorth later
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08:47<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26419 trunk/src/tree_gui.cpp (2014-03-23 12:47:04 UTC)
08:47<@DorpsGek>-Cleanup: Remove implementation of BuildTreesWindow::OnPaint since it matches the one of the base class.
08:47*LordAro reappears
08:47<LordAro>hey all
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08:49<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26420 trunk/src/goal_gui.cpp (2014-03-23 12:49:22 UTC)
08:49<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r25623) [FS#5948]: Goal GUI failed to shade.
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09:00<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26421 extra/musa/ (2014-03-23 13:00:37 UTC)
09:00<@DorpsGek>[musa] -Fix (rbegin): the first version of none of the content could be uploaded instead of only disallowing heightmaps and scenarios
09:02<frosch123>i have heard of people starting counting with 0 or 1
09:02<frosch123>why do sound effects in ottd start with 2?
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09:03<frosch123>SND_02_SPLAT = 0, // 0 == 0x00 ! <- all of the sound effects enums are shifted by two
09:04<rubidium>frosch123: reminds me of some specification where the first column of a csv was the row number. The specs said: the first row contains a header, the second (and further) contains the data. As per specs I started counting the data rows from 2
09:04<frosch123>"_sound_idx" somehow inserts sounds 0 and 1 between 40 and 41
09:05<frosch123>ok, that nonsense is already in ottd 0.1
09:05<frosch123>end of the road :p
09:06<rubidium>can a NewGRF refer to existing sounds?
09:07<frosch123>they can replace them, and vehicles and bridges can trigger them
09:13<rubidium>that makes unshifting kinda hard then, though on the other hand it's kinda stupid that they changed the order later on
09:13<rubidium>(they = CS et al.)
09:14<frosch123> <- fs#5946
09:15<frosch123>i need a better name than SND_1F_SPLAT_ROAD_AIR_LANDSCAPE though
09:15<frosch123>apparently there are specific sound effects for water and rail construction
09:15<frosch123>and one for the rest: road, terraform and airport
09:15<rubidium>check opensfx's source
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>water is a splat, rail is a fwump and others are a louder fwump?
09:18<frosch123>"Splat (building docks/canals/river)", "Splat (terraform/non-rail builds", "Splat (rail builds)"
09:19<frosch123>i guess i just change it to SND_1F_SPLAT_OTHER
09:19<frosch123>and put the rest into comments
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>why keep the 1F?
09:19<frosch123>because they all have it
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>i think we removed those from strings at some point
09:20<frosch123>and it refers to the index in the sound file
09:20<frosch123>so, if you want to match them to sounds in basesets, you need that index
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>then change the enum to match these indices?
09:20<frosch123>they were removed from strings when they were no longer valid
09:20<frosch123>these are valid
09:20<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: cpt. clever, right?
09:20<frosch123>we just discussed that
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>yes, always
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>having the index in the name feels somewhat redundant
09:22<frosch123>see, there you are wrong
09:22<frosch123>it not being redundant is the problem
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>make a const array that maps the one index type to the other :p
09:24<frosch123>i am sure you have something important to do
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>haha :p
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i need to handle hydrochloric acid
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>comes in a wagon or lorry, and can go into a lorry or local storage tank
09:28<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26422 /trunk/src (7 files) (2014-03-23 13:28:32 UTC)
09:28<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5946]: Some road constructions used the rail sound effect. Rename the enum items to properly reflect their purpose.
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09:46<frosch123>maybe i am overestimating the influence of newgrf on original sound effects
09:46<frosch123>let's see whether i can remove the sift
09:46<frosch123>sift/shift/shit, pick as you like
09:46<Flygon>I play OpenTTD on silent
09:47<frosch123>i do as well
09:47<frosch123>no idea why i bothered :p
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09:50<frosch123>ah well, not worth it
09:51<frosch123>it ain't broken
09:51<frosch123>better translate the numbers when loading the original sounds
09:51<frosch123>rather than translating in 10 places of newgrf interfaces
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10:06<@Alberth>hi hi Wolf01
10:06<Wolf01>hello o/
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10:13<krinn>hi everyone
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10:15<krinn>do we have a tool to query a savegame like the -q but more informative
10:16<@planetmaker>krinn, that tool is called openttd. Then console -> gamelog
10:16<@Alberth>or open mini map :)
10:16<krinn>:) i mean without opening the savegame, still lacky one newgrf so can't open it
10:17<andythenorth>who is co-author of Road Hog?
10:17<@planetmaker>krinn, enable newgrf developer tools
10:17<@planetmaker>or scenario developer rather
10:17<krinn>oh and btw: one could test -> openttd -q savegame (savegame literally, a non exisiting savegame) : crash instead of telling bad file...
10:17<andythenorth>I need someone to moan at / also help
10:18<andythenorth>otherwise decisions are hard :P
10:18<andythenorth>and the teddybear doesn’t say much back
10:18<@planetmaker>doesn't DanMacK suit that role? :P
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10:18<andythenorth>yeah, is problem, he is absent
10:18<krinn>could enable newgrf dev tool thru console or i need set it on conf ?
10:18<andythenorth>family troubles
10:19<andythenorth>Dan is good because relentlessly enthusiastic
10:19<andythenorth>balances my non-enthusiasm :P
10:19<@planetmaker>hm, I didn't even know about -q switch :)
10:19<@planetmaker>krinn, both is feasible
10:19<@planetmaker>with console you can edit anything which is in cfg
10:20<@planetmaker>at least in settings sections
10:20<krinn>the -q query savegame for info, with a bad filename, it's ok, with the filename "savegame" my openttd dump
10:20<@planetmaker>notable difference is static newgrfs
10:20<@planetmaker>yeah, I get a segmentation fault with non-existing file
10:21<krinn>not critical, but might hide something worst (weak filename handling?)
10:22<krinn>planetmaker redo with non valid filename but end it with .sav :)
10:24<@planetmaker>he :)
10:25<krinn>ah great, been able to load it with newgrf dev set ! just to see Zuu was right, no gs at all in it
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10:33<Pikka>I blame dalestan
10:34<Pikka>potaghat has landed
10:36<andythenorth>hopefully my pigs will fly soon too
10:37<andythenorth>got a bit stuck
10:37<andythenorth>oh well
10:37<Pikka>so this gamescript
10:37<Pikka>is it okay if it's actually
10:37<Pikka>nothing like silicon valley?
10:37<andythenorth>thankyou yes
10:38<andythenorth>Pikka what is it like now? :)
10:38<Pikka>it's like nothing now
10:38<Pikka>it runs but it doesn't do anything
10:39<Pikka>but I have ideas. Strange ideas.
10:39<andythenorth>I’ll test them
10:39<andythenorth>when they do something
10:39<andythenorth>can anyone explain andythenorth to me?
10:40<andythenorth>he thinks it’s ok for the train set to have vans, open wagons, and flat cars, and container wagons
10:40<andythenorth>but the truck set must only have one general cargo truck type
10:40<andythenorth>why is this?
10:40<andythenorth>the problem with andythenorth is that he makes no sense
10:41<andythenorth>why not box trucks, flat trucks and open trucks?
10:41<andythenorth>all with same stats
10:41<Pikka>why not indeed
10:41<Pikka>and the same name
10:42<andythenorth>don’t mention the subtypes :P
10:44<Pikka>I might have mentioned them once, but I think I got away with it
10:45<@Alberth>andy may be biased by RL or other vehicle sets?
10:45<andythenorth>trying to match it to Iron Horse
10:45<andythenorth>same as default trucks match up to default trains
10:45<krinn>there's no command to list savegame the server have ?
10:46<@planetmaker>rcon ls
10:46<@planetmaker>rcon cd
10:46<krinn>ah ok, easy
10:46<andythenorth>trucks != trains though :P
10:47<@Alberth>V may try to prove you wrong :p
10:47<andythenorth>maybe the answer _is_ to match them
10:49<krinn>planetmaker, server handle them right
10:53<krinn>wonder how that thing works : "rcon pwd ls" : get the list, but "rcon pwd load 1" or "rcon pwd load filename.sav" doesn't work
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10:55<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r26423 trunk/src/fios.cpp (2014-03-23 14:55:32 UTC)
10:55<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Don't crash when supplying an invalid filename without extension to cmd parameter -q
10:58<@planetmaker>krinn, to answer your question: no, servers don't crash. But... this channel is way more suitable than private messages :)
10:59<@planetmaker>they load the titlegame instead
10:59<@planetmaker>or otherwise they create a water-only map
11:00<krinn>yep i saw, i tried :)
11:00<krinn>but from the server i'm able to load number, but rcon pwd load number do nothing
11:00<@planetmaker>my channel list is too long, didn't see the private query :P
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>hm, this "-q" seems to crash on patched games (where loading shows "invalid chunk size")
11:00<@planetmaker>then the server misses NewGRFs, krinn
11:01<@planetmaker>rcon pwd load doesn't exist anyway :P
11:01<krinn>how can one load a map ?
11:01<@planetmaker>rcon "load 3"
11:01<@planetmaker>if savegame #3 is the map
11:02<@planetmaker>rcon "load filename.sav"
11:02<krinn>doesn't work for me
11:02<@planetmaker>oh, there's somewhere a password involved
11:02<krinn>but rcon pwd ls i get the file list from the server
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: the "" are relevant
11:03<krinn>ah ok
11:03<@planetmaker>rcon pwd ls
11:03<@planetmaker>^that's two commands which don't go in one line
11:03<@planetmaker>rcon password "pwd"
11:03<@planetmaker>rcon password "ls"
11:03<andythenorth>hmm, I’d better delete the little ‘farm tram’ :P
11:03<andythenorth>shame, it was cute
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: "pwd" means "password"
11:03<@planetmaker>woot, andythenorth ?! I translated already 'farm tram' :P
11:04<@planetmaker>does it, Eddi|zuHause ?
11:04<andythenorth>well you get a livestock tram instead :(
11:04<krinn>funny the ls works with quote
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: yes.
11:04<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, that's highly imbiguous. as there's rcon password "pwd"
11:05<krinn>but Eddi|zuHause is right thinking i wasn't aware a "pwd" command exist :)
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: not my fault :p
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but syntactically, the "pwd" there cannot mean the "pwd" command
11:05<alluke>will 1.4.0 rc1 savegames be compatible with 1.4.0?
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: there are programming languages where "if if then then else else" is a valid statement :)
11:06<@planetmaker>alluke, even 0.1.0 savegames are compatible with 1.4.0
11:07<@planetmaker>heck even TTD
11:07<@planetmaker>(but not TTDPatch)
11:07<alluke>just thought about it since it contains cargodist
11:07<@planetmaker>even TTO
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the meaning of "if"/"then"/"else" depends on syntactical postion
11:07<alluke>i have some ancient cargodist games that don't work on anything else
11:07<andythenorth>stupid boring tram -> truck progression :P
11:07<@planetmaker>yes, they're not played with official Openttd versions, alluke
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>alluke: that's because older cargodist versions are not official builds
11:09<krinn>except -q no other tools exists to read a savegame ? (companies, ai, gs in it...)
11:10<@planetmaker>krinn, no, there doesn't. And it would be a PITA to maintain
11:10<@planetmaker>it would need to duplicate the whole saveload and keep up with trunk for each new setting, various code changes etc
11:11<krinn>ok, it's a rarer use case than newgrf anyway
11:11<@planetmaker>if you need more output, it possibly could be amended to -q. AI and GS info would make sense. Patches welcome then :P
11:11<@planetmaker>similar to all crash output
11:12<krinn>my skills are limited to find bugs, well, even when not trying
11:13<krinn>and by find bug, i only mean : trigger
11:19<andythenorth>how about RV-wagons?
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: never
11:24*andythenorth has a rethink :P
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11:30<Pikka>andythenorth: articulated aircraft, flying truck convoys
11:30<andythenorth>hover truck
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11:45<@Alberth>make a set of trucks that drive on a rail track by some conversion gear
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>make ships that drive on roads?
11:46<@Alberth>only when pulled by a car :p
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>there was a movie where a hovercraft went down a road, but i don't rembember which one
11:54<krinn>some james bond
11:54<krinn>i think it was one with moore
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>weren't those boats that jumped over the road?
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>it might have been a jackie chan movie
11:55<andythenorth>I think I delete about half the stuff I do in newgrf :P
11:56<krinn>actually boats jumps is also from chan movie
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure there were boat jumps in loads of movies :)
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>like a bud spencer movie
11:59<krinn>well, i would only bet on him crushing someone heads
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>i think they landed on a cop car or something
12:01<krinn>generally they use to land on bikes, the guy get mad cause of that, and spencer crush heads loop start
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>google thinks the jackie chan movie is "rumble in the bronx"
12:05<krinn>well, google only answer me "james bond babe" when i search james bond overcraft, i should drop search babes with google
12:09<Eddi|zuHause> <-- about halfway through
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12:10<krinn>This video is not available in your country. <- Seriously :)
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>i thought they only do that in germany :p
12:12<krinn>i thought only abc was doing that lame thing
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12:15<krinn> <- don't ask how i end here, but wow, that pilot has skills!
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12:23*andythenorth has maybe solved it
12:23<andythenorth>‘it’ being an RV roster :P
12:24<andythenorth>having a strict rule about multiples of 8 adds challenge
12:24<andythenorth>I blame the pikka oiseau
12:27<andythenorth>but without arbitrary rules, what’s the fun?
12:27<andythenorth>it got better when I took this out
12:28<andythenorth>on the grounds that it’s a brit roster
12:28<Eddi|zuHause>i think i'm getting the hang of this fibonacci 2048
12:28<andythenorth>Dresden isn’t _strictly_ in Britain
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12:54<Eddi|zuHause>well in a weird alternate history, it could have been :)
13:00<andythenorth>I’ll save it for the euro roster ;)
13:20<andythenorth>vehicle type = herd of cattle
13:20<andythenorth>great idea or *terrible* idea?
13:20<Pikka>it's so terrible it might be brilliant
13:21<andythenorth>I had it 6 years ago
13:21<andythenorth>if it was any good, I’d have done it by now?
13:21<Pikka>we can't go evaluating ideas on that basis...
13:21<andythenorth>subtype refits: cows, pigs, sheep
13:22<andythenorth>can I do it without animation?
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>has to be fully 4x zoom 32bpp animated
13:22<Pikka>but the smallest step a vehicle makes is 4px, 16px at 4x zoom
13:23<Pikka>so either your animation will be very jerky or your animals will be huge
13:23<andythenorth>I was thinking animate position of animals relative to each other
13:23<andythenorth>not the legs :P
13:23<andythenorth>also we will have newgrf effects sometime
13:23<andythenorth>so dust cloud
13:23<andythenorth>also poo
13:23<Pikka>still terrible
13:23<Pikka>but not as terrible as gold rush
13:24<Pikka>I have a 4x zoom 32bpp cow you can borrow
13:24<andythenorth>oh joy
13:24<andythenorth>at normal size, cow is pixels
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: also: sounds
13:25<andythenorth>do you actually want me to do this?
13:25<andythenorth>it does kind of fit the name of the set :P
13:25<Pikka>definitely not
13:25<Pikka>is it going to moove at 5mph
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>we let you do anything if this questioning stops :p
13:26<andythenorth>Pikka: it will stampede at 20mph
13:26<andythenorth>5mph is boring
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13:26<Pikka>why not just put them inna truck then
13:26<Pikka>or a tram
13:26<Pikka>or a train
13:26<andythenorth>that too
13:26<Pikka>or a hot air balloon
13:26<Pikka>or a dinghy
13:26<andythenorth>or a helicopter
13:26<Pikka>or a spaceshuttle
13:26<andythenorth>why aren’t there spacezellepins?
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>let the herd of sheep be carried by a herd of cows?
13:26<Pikka>yes, spacezellepins in space
13:27<andythenorth>would be much more efficient than rockets
13:27<andythenorth>just float
13:27<andythenorth>we sent a tent into space once
13:27<Pikka>who's we?
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>i've seen that video
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>with dolls in the tent, carried by a balloon
13:28<andythenorth>I’ll add a herd to the roster
13:28<andythenorth>needs a name :P
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>if you make it available in the before-lorries-age?
13:29<andythenorth>I think it’s a stupid idea
13:29<andythenorth>unfortunately that makes it likely to happen
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13:31<Eddi|zuHause>can't be more stupid than regearing :p
13:32<Pikka>I'm sure if he tries very hard it could be
13:32<Pikka>regearable cattle?
13:32<andythenorth>I was thinking multiple refits
13:32<andythenorth>30 / 120 / 360 units
13:33<andythenorth>pigs, sheep, cows
13:33<andythenorth>no chickens
13:33<andythenorth>‘herd of chickens'
13:34<Pikka>of course I've heard of chickens
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13:39<EndymionM>Hi, I have a new machine with Ubuntu 12 on it and I installed OpenTTD 1.3.3 - same as I have on my XP machine. Any clue as to why it runs so much slower on Linux?
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>there was this video about a chinese guy who herds ducks through the city
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>EndymionM: graphics driver has 2D-acceleration?
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>EndymionM: does it run faster if you make the window smaller?
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13:44<Eddi|zuHause>ibm_Endymion: did you read my replies?
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13:44<ibm_Endymion>Sorry about that. Tried to close the DOS window. I only saw the questions. I did post a reply - did it not go through?
13:45<ibm_Endymion>Eddi|zuHause: I have no idea what the driver has. I'm a Windows user, but my friend stuck me with this OS and said, "here, you'll love this" - he's dead wrong. As far as shrinking the window, I haven't tried. I run fullscreen at full speed on the same hardware on XP, both SP2 and SP3.
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>ibm_Endymion: default drivers often have very poor acceleration support, try the window thing, and if that shows an effect, install a driver specific for your graphics card
13:46<ibm_Endymion>Eddi|zuHause: Alright, I'll try. Thanks.
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>ibm_Endymion: transitioning to another OS may be difficult at first, but once you find your way around the quirks it's probably fine
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13:49<ibm_Endymion>Eddi|zuHause: I hope you're right, because otherwise I'm going to be going out and buying a new hard drive.
13:50<ibm_Endymion>Either way - Thank you. I hope I can get my favorite game working on this rig.
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>what's a hard drive going to change?
13:51<andythenorth>I am going to regret this stupid livestock herd idea
13:53<ibm_Endymion>Eddi|zuHause: Step 1: Get new Hard Drive. Step 2: Format & Install Win XP, lay Ubuntu to the side (known working) Step 3: ???? Step 4: Profit!
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>you can also create a partition on an existing drive :)
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>but i don't think this will be necessary
13:55<ibm_Endymion>I could. I hope it won't be, but, I'm really getting tired of all the little problems.
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14:01<Zuu>Pikka: Better go for same strange script ideas than yet another city builder :-)
14:02<Zuu>Hello :-)
14:03<@planetmaker>moin Zuu :)
14:03<Zuu>Assuming your "strange ideas" isn't yet another city builder ;-)
14:04<Zuu>I think there are many new script ideas that are yet to be implemeted by someone.
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14:30<Eddi|zuHause>i was thinking of building a highway system that roughly runs equidistant to the neighbouring cities
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15:00<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: like a freeway etc?
15:01<andythenorth>so you have trunk routes and connecting routes?
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>whatever you call a 4 lane road in your country
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>yes, basically
15:01<andythenorth>nice idea
15:02<andythenorth>would you build them two-tile, one way?
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>or with road objects :p
15:11<Zuu>We got wetrails, when do we get roadrails? :-)
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>there were "trams" like 10 years ago :p
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>coded as railtype
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>that looked like a road
15:22<Supercheese>Code roads as railtypes
15:22<Supercheese>problem solved?
15:22<@planetmaker>Supercheese, except towns need roads ;)
15:22<Supercheese>Bah, details
15:24<Supercheese>Oh man, this could be a problem
15:24<Supercheese>I doubt that {STATION} names have cases available (dative, accusative, etc.)
15:25<Supercheese>or do they?
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15:27<EndymionM>Sory to vent here but, Ubuntu chat people are helpless at trying to help fix this slowdown problem. Apparently, they look down on hardware they consider 'ancient'. Regardless of whether or not OpenTTD works perfectly in Windows, and Ubuntu is running slow.
15:28<@Alberth>that's normal :p
15:28<@planetmaker>EndymionM, a modern Ubunutu is like installing windows8 on that machine. If you install an ancient ubuntu with an ancient GUI, that will likely also run faster
15:29<@planetmaker>only speaking about required ressources for proper GUI usage
15:29<@planetmaker>not about other things
15:29<EndymionM>planetmaker: The OS itself runs fine, so does Firefox, so does... well, everything but OpenTTD really :-(
15:30<@Alberth>but as eddi already said, it's probably a graphic driver problem; windows drivers are highly optimized by the manufacturer of the video card; linux drivers are often much less advanced
15:30<@Alberth>in particular if you have nvidia, as the manufacturer refuses to give specs of its hardware for developing drivers
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15:30<EndymionM>planetmaker: The OS itself runs fine, so does Firefox, so does... well, everything but OpenTTD really :-(
15:31<@Alberth>EndymionM: get a more stable connection :p
15:31<EndymionM>Alberth: Working on that, actually!
15:32<@Alberth>openttd is really pushing the video card in ways that few other applications do, so the fact that it runs nicely with some other program doesn't mean a lot
15:34<EndymionM>Alberth: Thanks. And supposedly, this card should be able to run it - according to the Ubuntu wiki.
15:34<@Alberth>it does, doesn't it? :)
15:34<frosch123>generally try 32bpp and 8bpp
15:35<frosch123>try zbase and opengfx as basesets
15:35<frosch123>and see whether it makes a difference
15:35<frosch123>also try windowed and fullscreen, and check for differences
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>EndymionM: you still did not answer the question whether window size makes a difference
15:37<EndymionM>eddi|zuHause: Let me double-check that to be certain.
15:37<Supercheese>oh well, station names will just have to sit there, indeclinable :(
15:38<EndymionM>Eddi|zuHause: Yes, it makes a huge difference. The smaller the window, the better the speed.
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>then it's almost definitely the graphics driver
15:39<frosch123>as said, try both zbase and opengfx
15:41<maddy_>linux generally has 2 graphics drivers (at least for ATI), the official closed-source one and the open-source one
15:41<maddy_>so you could try both
15:42<EndymionM>I actually know that fglrx does not work with the Mobility Radeon 7500 (which is what I've got).
15:43<maddy_>ok that narrows your choices then
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15:45<maddy_>ubuntu is not the most lightweight of linux distros out there, but if the gpu is the bottleneck, then changing the distro probably doesn't help either
15:46<EndymionM>I am not trying to "change distro". If I change at all, it's back to XP. Linux isn't something I like, it came on the machine, it boots, it runs Firefox, it connects to the Internet. I thought it would run OpenTTD.
15:47<frosch123>well, it runs it for everyone else :p
15:48<maddy_>is it old ubuntu? or newest 13.10?
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15:48<maddy_>is it old ubuntu? or newest 13.10?
15:48<EndymionM>maddy_: 12.04.4 LTS.
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>ubuntu versions: year.month
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>so october 2013
15:49<maddy_>EndymionM: well you should upgrade to 13.10, there is a chance it has newer version of the graphics driver
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>would be 13.10
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>there's usually a .04 and a .10
15:50<EndymionM>maddy_: The very concept of upgrading this crate terrifies me. Every time I've upgraded something on this hardware on Windows (except OpenTTD and Firefox)... bad things have happened.
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>well the other option is to downgrade to something ancient enough to support the fglrx legacy driver
15:52<maddy_>well, that is your choice, but that is what I would try least try the new ubuntu before you install windows xp :)
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>EndymionM: can you start "openttd -b 32bpp-optimized" and see if that makes a difference?
15:53<Supercheese>Awesome, "nutcracker" in Latin is "nucifrangibulum"
15:53<Supercheese>I'd hazard the German translation is equally fun
15:54<Supercheese>German is a fun language in general
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it is
15:54<frosch123>german and english is almost the same
15:54<Supercheese>Well yeah, but familiarity breeds contempt
15:55<Supercheese>so English is no longer fun for me
15:55<EndymionM>Supercheese: are you watching QI, perchance?
15:55<Supercheese>no, just trying to translate OTTD
15:55<Supercheese>how did the German translation get away with not using any cases?
15:56<EndymionM>Okay, dare I ask, why Latin?
15:56<Supercheese>I'm seemingly needing datives and accusatives all over the place
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>cases are fixed in the context of the string
15:56<Supercheese>Well, because a) I've studied Latin b) There is no Latin translation yet
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>the string is always the same
15:56<EndymionM>Supercheese: I see. And why nutcracker?
15:57<Supercheese>oh that just came up randomly
15:57<Supercheese>I was perusing the Latin dictionary
15:57<Supercheese>I found it interesting someone decided it was worth including "nutcracker"
15:57<EndymionM>Ah, I see.
15:57<maddy_>I was just thinking that's likely a word not present in OTTD, at least if newgrfs are excluded
15:57<Supercheese>as the usage is surely extremely limited
15:58<EndymionM>Well, you couldn't translate The Nutcracker without it, could you?
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>there should really be nutcrackers in toyland. it's a major oversight
15:58<Supercheese>This is true
15:58<Supercheese>although aren't some of the buildings...?
15:58<Supercheese>I forget, haven't played toyland in ages
15:59<EndymionM>Someone should build a whole nut->nutcracker industry chain for Toyland.
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>no idea. i couldn't bear toyland for more than 5 minutes
15:59<Supercheese>I loved toyland as a lad
15:59<frosch123>there is only candyfloss, toffee and sugar
15:59<Supercheese>It's a kids' place to be certain
16:00<EndymionM>Eddi|zuHause: Okay, I just tried it. Better, but still slow. Should I try it with zBase? (Currently I'm running OpenGFX)
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>there was no toyland when i was a lad. we had to build rails uphill. both ways.
16:00<Supercheese>It reminded me muchly of the board game "Candyland", which I also enjoyed
16:00<maddy_>speaking of cargoes, whoever maintains opengfx+ industries, I would love to have an option to transport Coal to Steel Mills
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>EndymionM: switching to zbase will just switch to 32bpp automatically, but with this switch you forced it anyway, so won't make a difference
16:02<EndymionM>Okay, figured it'd be better to ask. So at the moment, I just have to set my resolution lower, fullscreen, and pray, basically?
16:05<maddy_>might try the linux upgrade tho
16:07<EndymionM>maddy_: I might. But I might just try setting up a VM with XP and 1.75 Gb RAM, and set up OpenTTD Portable on there :-P
16:07<EndymionM>(That's the best "in-between" step I can see hee.
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see that working very well
16:08<maddy_>I don't have much experience with VM's, but generally when you run stuff in a virtual machine things will be slower, not faster
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16:09<andythenorth>ha ha
16:09<andythenorth>just found a thing
16:09<andythenorth>sometimes realism provides ideas that unrealism might not have dreamed of
16:10<@planetmaker>don't you generally do that? :P
16:11<andythenorth>oh yes :)
16:11<EndymionM>So what thing did you find anyway? Addams, Ben Grimm, The Thing, what?
16:12<andythenorth>livestock tram
16:13<@planetmaker>hm. Doesn't HEQS have livestock trams?
16:14<EndymionM>andythenorth: That's cool.
16:14<andythenorth>planetmaker: it does, but not electric tramcars like that
16:14<@planetmaker>ah :)
16:14<@planetmaker>time for HEQS 1.6 :P
16:18<Zuu>If someone makes a nut => nutcracker industry chain, there need to be a specialized GS for it too. (GS use .nut as file extension for source code files)
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>it will be called "cracker.nut"?
16:21<@planetmaker>haha :)
16:21<Supercheese>have to use NUTS grf as well
16:21<@planetmaker>sounds like an Easter Egg :P
16:21<Supercheese>set the dependency
16:21<Supercheese>are there any actual nuts in NUTS?
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>no, just the creator of it is ... :p
16:23<@planetmaker>I can swear I've seen more nuts here
16:23<andythenorth>will it fit in tunnels? :P
16:23<EndymionM>No, you just end up starting a game with EGRVTS and NUTS in 1900, and you go 'aww, nuts', when you see there are no trains.
16:24<@planetmaker>it doesn't fit my land line, andythenorth... trying to connect for eternity
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>same here
16:24<@planetmaker>ah... now
16:25<@planetmaker>you'll need two-storey tunnels
16:25<@planetmaker>but ISR has those 'vehicles'
16:27*planetmaker checks whether translation commit to road-hog worked
16:31<andythenorth>driverless container handlers?
16:35<Supercheese>That would present a problem, for when any cargo road vehicle gets hit by a train, the game says "Driver dies"... but if it's a driverless vehicle...
16:36<andythenorth>doublestack RVs :o
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16:38<@planetmaker>MJP, towns are placed and named prior to industry generation
16:39<@planetmaker>generating the town name(s) can take different amount of random calls - depending on the town name set used
16:39<@planetmaker>Thus the random numbers industry generation gets is different (as already towns are placed differently)
16:39<@planetmaker>^@ FS#5840
16:43<@planetmaker>MJP: e.g. see the bottom of The numbers in the town_names(...) call indicate a probability for that branch to be taken
16:48<EndymionM>Alright, I gotta run. See y'all.
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17:46<andythenorth>so containers on an MTS thing
17:47<andythenorth>or a sprinter carrier?
17:48<frosch123>how about complementing the early horse things in egrvts with some elephants in heqs?
17:49<frosch123>cargo elephants would fit heart of darkness, wouldn't they?
17:49<@Alberth>they would
17:49<@DorpsGek>Commit by zuu :: r26424 /extra/musa ( (2014-03-23 21:49:53 UTC)
17:50<@DorpsGek>[musa] -Fix (rbegin): Validate that the package name is not already in use by someone else
17:50<frosch123>hmm, more reverse iterators :p
17:51<@Alberth>andy, their purpose is different, the former is about transport on the road, the latter is about loading/unloading a container
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17:54<andythenorth>Alberth: I am somewhat expanding definition of road ;)
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17:56<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26425 trunk/src/sound_type.h (2014-03-23 21:56:48 UTC)
17:56<@DorpsGek>-Doc: SoundFx enum
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18:10<Supercheese>Cargo elephants?
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18:23<MJP>planetmaker: FS#5840 addresses 3 issues: towns, rivers (fixed by r26309) and long freeze at the end (I saw that with debug binaries, corresponding to the cache clean-up (not occurring anymore since r26346)). My problem was when I wanted a lot of industries, few towns (or more than the name generator can provide) and "allow multiple similar industries per town = Off": the loop in PlaceIndustry() goes to the end and that causes the difference of map generation times.
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21:51<NGC3982>I have no idea what's going on here
21:51<NGC3982>The oil trucks are not unloading
21:52<NGC3982>The orders are to fill up (oil) at the oil site, and to drop at the refinary
21:52<NGC3982>But it ..just doesn't.
21:54<Eddi|zuHause>usually, because you have a producing industry near the dropoff station, so the vehicles load stuff they cannot unload anywhere
21:54<Eddi|zuHause>use "unload and leave empty" orders
21:55<NGC3982>I see, but that results in the oil ending up on the station platform.
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21:59<Eddi|zuHause>yes, because that oil came from that station in the first place
22:00<Eddi|zuHause>the other option is you didn't cover the accepting tile of the refinery (there are very few)
22:06<NGC3982>Yes, true.
22:06*NGC3982 fixed it.
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23:55<Flygon>Does anyone here ever end up building massive railway netwoorks
23:55<Flygon>But never bother building stations or signalling because they want to 'finish' the line?
---Logclosed Mon Mar 24 00:00:44 2014