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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-03-25

---Logopened Tue Mar 25 00:00:46 2014
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02:52<Supercheese>Ugh, so many strings
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09:06<andythenorth>V453000: *you* are a BAD FEATURE
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09:58<V453000>Ammler: YEAH
09:58<V453000>And^ :)
09:58<V453000>andythenorth isnt in channel
09:58<V453000>what a traitor
10:01<@peter1138>what a tractor
10:03<@peter1138>should i play a game of ottd?
10:03<V453000>you dont play openttd?
10:07<V453000>easy answer thenz
10:08<@peter1138>Hmm, lots of NewGRF updates.
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10:12<@peter1138>Should've fix that NewGRF preset system to use just GRF IDs...
10:13<@peter1138>When did kerning support get added? I'm sure I wrote a patch for that years ago but never did anything with it.
10:26<@planetmaker>peter1138: a button like 'update preset' would be nice. Instead of automatic updates.
10:29<V453000>that would be amazing
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10:33<@peter1138>Apparently I don't have all the old NewGRFs installed, so just having the filename is useless.
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11:18<@peter1138>Hmm, multistop docks...
11:18<@peter1138>Can't remember if I got that to work...
11:20<@peter1138>Heh, just found my patch for aforementioned preset change, heh
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11:24<krinn>I have "tried" add eints support, but ^^ where can i see the result?
11:28<krinn>ok found url, but what are invalid ? ->
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>"invalid" means it doesn't understand the string parameters
11:34<krinn>and i don't understand that :)
11:34<krinn>is there a way to "see" what is causing problem ?
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>(Invalid) STR_INFO_0 : With {NUM} vehicle{P "" s} <-- did you declare the plural type? is {P} after the parameter correct or do you need to specify {P:0}?
11:37<krinn>in no lang file i declare the plural form, it just works in openttd as-is
11:39<krinn>and look at it in french.TXT : STR_INFO_0 : Avec {NUM} véhicule{P "" s}
11:39<krinn>and it doesn't complain for anything in french.txt
11:41<krinn>That's planetmaker's fault ! he suggest me to use eints, forgetting i'm a kick ass bug finder !
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it works in openttd, but eints may be a tick stricter
11:41<krinn>it should complain for the same reason in french.txt if it was that strict no ?
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea, i'm just guessing things
11:43<krinn>reject ones cannot be edit by users ?
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11:56<krinn>I must go, but for debug help : check STR_AWARD_OWN_MULTI reject in english good in french and both use {P x y}
11:57<krinn>later guys
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11:58<andythenorth>tra la la
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12:07<Xaroth|Work>your singing scared him off, andythenorth
12:09<@planetmaker>lalalala :)
12:10<Xaroth|Work>planetmaker: are you trying to start a war here?
12:10<@planetmaker>of course the lang file headers need to declare the plural and gender forms. lalalala :)
12:10<@planetmaker>nah, there's enough war out there. I don't need one here.
12:11<@planetmaker>Anyone who wants one, can go and find one
12:11<Eddi|zuHause># i'm covering my ears like a kid
12:12<Eddi|zuHause># when your words mean nothing i go lalala
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12:58*Phreeze is sticking panini stickers into the stickeralbum. sticky.
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13:08<Eddi|zuHause>i never understood how people can fall into this ripoff scheme
13:09<Phreeze>:) and fun
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13:44<andythenorth>lo Terkhen
13:46<andythenorth>V453000: maybe we’re doing it wrong :(
13:47<Pinkbeast>andythenorth: you're doing it right from where I am
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13:47<andythenorth>forum posters disagree
13:47<andythenorth>as does the FIRS poll
13:47<Phreeze>speaking of ?
13:48<andythenorth>making things better
13:48<andythenorth>players who post in the forums are pretty strong advocates of making things worse
13:49<Phreeze>they sometimes don't know the backgrounds
13:49<Pinkbeast>andythenorth: Welp I enjoy your sets, as you know
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13:51<andythenorth>lo Pikka
13:51<Pikka>nice weather we're having for the time of year
13:51<andythenorth>not for me
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13:52<Phreeze>now yes
13:52<Phreeze>this morning we had -3.5....
13:52*Pinkbeast would settle for "not actually a bastard headwind"
13:52<Pikka>what be the haps?
13:52<Pikka>it's been raining here, and it's currently 22c at 4am. Winter is coming.
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>who cares about weather when you can sit in front of your computer?
13:54<Phreeze>22c -> winter -> lol
13:54<Phreeze>winter is back here.... -3 today, but +15 on saturday....
13:54<Phreeze>4 seasons in 1 week
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>well, typical april weather :)
14:01<Pinkbeast>As long as there are not leaves on the line.
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14:01<andythenorth>Pikka: you need to make your sets more realistic
14:01<Pikka>I do
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14:02<Pikka>that got rid of him
14:02<Pinkbeast>Pikka: In particular there should be no livestock after Beeching oh no wait
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14:18<Eddi|zuHause>someone should make a guide how to handle andy
14:20<@planetmaker>hm :)
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14:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26427 trunk/src/lang/catalan.txt (2014-03-25 18:45:09 UTC)
14:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<@DorpsGek>catalan - 160 changes by juanjo
15:21<Pikka>livestock is a silly cargo anyway ;)
15:23<@planetmaker>especially in times of scrapie and mad cow disease ;)
15:25<Pikka>with default industries, at least
15:26<Pikka>two cargos which go from the same industry to the same industry
15:26<Pikka>at least one of them is redundant ;)
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>remove farms from the game. "realistic" food comes out of the supermarket anyway
15:27<@planetmaker>soylent green anyone?
15:28<@planetmaker>new colours available on request
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>soylent yellow sounded way more delicious
15:30<@planetmaker>so, soylent yellow for you?
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15:35<@planetmaker>I really wonder why people keep finding cyclotrons useful
15:36<@planetmaker>you also should learn about auto-completion of signals, rubenwardy ;)
15:36<rubenwardy>The drag thing?
15:36<rubenwardy>I use it normally. Don't know why i didn't then
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15:39<@planetmaker>rubenwardy, imho it also misses any explanation as of what a cyclotron is and why one would want to build one in the first place
15:39<@planetmaker>and then why one shouldn't build one at all ever
15:39<@planetmaker>(it jams and can f*** your whole network)
15:40<frosch123>maybe cyclotrons try to mimik aircraft holding pattern
15:40<frosch123>for those who don't like airports :p
15:40<@planetmaker>somewhat they do... but without the height levels :)
15:41<frosch123>maybe trains get robbed when they stop
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15:43<@planetmaker>proper pre-signaling can also ensure that trains from a side line will join the main line at full speed - even if they waited in stand-still on the side line for a proper gap in ML trains
15:43<@planetmaker>it's fiddly. But possible
15:44<rubenwardy>cyclotrons are more of a gimic for me. I don't use them in serious games
15:47<Kjetil_>hm. I guess the runnings cost for a train should be different if it actually moving
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>you can do that
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>but it has hardly any influence in the big picture
15:49<@planetmaker>Kjetil_, a number of NewGRFs do so. But as Eddi said: makes no difference really
15:52<V453000>is there a way to have a wagon which would define length (and articulation) based on leading engine? E.g. have one master wagon which would look as two articulated 4/8 with train A, and as one intact 8/8 with train B
15:53<V453000>I guess that isnt possible right
15:53<Kjetil_>then the cost difference isn't large enough :P
15:53<Pikka>length, yes, articulation, no
15:54<frosch123>V453000: number of articulated parts is fixed upon purchase
15:54<frosch123>heqs does invisible articulatred part to shorten stuff
15:54<V453000>I thought so
15:55<V453000>well utterly theoretical is to have 3/8, 2/8 and 3/8 articulated and use sprites accordingly
15:55<V453000>but that is functionaly w.e.i.r.d
15:55<V453000>my aim is to have one ultimate wagon which could connect to any train but the articulated thing is making it quite tough :D
15:55<V453000>I guess the 3+2+3 would look strange in curves etc
15:57<frosch123>cets does that stuff
15:57<frosch123>i guess a lot sets actually do
15:57<frosch123>more articulated parts than visible
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15:58<frosch123>a 3+2+3+ vehicle does not look any different to a 8/8 one, if only the middle part has a sprite
15:58<frosch123>you only need to be careful with dragging in depot
15:58<frosch123>which does not completely support articulated vehicles yet
15:59<frosch123>it only draws the first part at the mouse cursor
15:59<frosch123>but ofc, you can also make a patch for ottd for that :p
15:59<V453000>exactly, I am worried about the depot part
16:00<V453000>3+2+3 could easily handle my requirements visually ... not sure about the 2x4/8 but definitely the 8/8
16:01<frosch123>well, there is var 10 to distinguish depot/vehicle list from map
16:01<Pikka>1+2+2+2+1, obviously. :)
16:01<frosch123>so you can specify different sprites for the gui anyway
16:02<V453000>so I could define depot sprites the way so that the first dragged vehicle is visible
16:02<frosch123>you can also put text on depot vehicles :p
16:02<V453000>yeah I do that already
16:03<V453000>1+2+2+2+1 sounds great too
16:03<V453000>if edge 2s get the 4/8 it means in a long chain it is 2 gap, 2 wagon, 2 gap, ... which should look okay in curves
16:04<frosch123>it affect curve speed limits ofc :p
16:04<V453000>that is what I just thought of
16:04<V453000>which will cause wtf :D
16:04<@planetmaker>why do the short wagons need articulation?
16:04<V453000>planetmaker: to keep 8/8 total
16:04<V453000>+convenient upon purchase, less clicking
16:05<@planetmaker>wouldn't then articulation in units of the shortest wagon make sense?
16:05<@planetmaker>which is... 4/8?
16:05<@planetmaker>or is it 2/8?
16:05<@planetmaker>so 2-vehicle articulation to get 8/8
16:05<V453000>but I want an ultimate wagon which can look like 8/8 and 4/á at the same time
16:05<V453000>yes that is done currently
16:06<V453000>so for 8/8 I need a center part for sprites
16:06<V453000>and for 4/8 I need two in the middle-ish
16:06<V453000>1+2+2+2+1 fits that perfectly
16:07<@planetmaker>look like 8/8 and what at the same time?
16:07<V453000>like 8/8 with engine A
16:07<V453000>like 2x4/8 with engine B
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16:08<V453000>same item
16:08<@planetmaker>hm, I see
16:08<frosch123>we need a notation for visible and invisible parts :p
16:08<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: do you have one already?
16:08<alluke>hopefully the new 2cc set will support railcar wagons
16:09<frosch123>1+[2]+2+[2]+1, 1+2+[2]+2+1
16:09<V453000>exactly frosch
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i had no need for that yet
16:09<V453000>im going to try to do that
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>besides, which part is visible depends on some factors
16:11<andythenorth>wtf even?
16:11<andythenorth>what have I stumbled into? ;)
16:11<Pikka>why not?
16:11<@planetmaker>hi andythenorth :)
16:11<@planetmaker>you've stumbled into an invisible discussion :P
16:12<Pikka>who said that?!?
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't see anything
16:13<frosch123>andythenorth: we only try to get V to work, after we all bashed him on the forums :)
16:14<andythenorth>we bashed V?
16:14<andythenorth>I missed that
16:14<V453000>V will get to work tomorrow :P
16:14<andythenorth>can I join in?
16:15<V453000>bashing was insufficient but Pikka reminded me that I wanted to get rid of the complex fit wagon to correct engine puzzle in the purchase menu
16:15<andythenorth>Pikka: it’s shameful that authors have an opinion
16:15<V453000>having one ultimate wagon was my dream a long time ago already
16:15<andythenorth>I really wanted to troll in that thread
16:15<andythenorth>but I figured I just piss off the mods :P
16:15<V453000>you are welcome to do so still andythenorth :D
16:16<Pikka>andythenorth: well, the parameters of the discussion are "things which are annoying to players"
16:16<Pikka>if you don't mind annoying players, have as many opinions as you like ;)
16:16<frosch123>andythenorth: i legitimately gave two issues which annoy me about nuts :p
16:16<andythenorth>I have the opinion that the vehicles in my RV set are all wrong
16:16<andythenorth>I shall fix that
16:17<frosch123>oh, i missed the obvious one
16:17<frosch123>most annoying are authors who want to change their set all the time to something cmopletely different
16:17<frosch123>or who think that 3 vehicles should be enough for everyone
16:18<V453000>frosch123: XD
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16:20<andythenorth>frosch123: 3 vehicles is 1 too many
16:20<andythenorth>universal engine, universal wagon
16:20<andythenorth>engine has upgrades
16:20<andythenorth>wagon auto-refits but it checks the current date against a grf-local lookup table of a lunar cycle on a fictional planet
16:21<andythenorth>auto-refit is allowed for liquid cargos if moon is waxing, and for all other cargos if waning, except in June
16:21<andythenorth>when it reverses
16:21<andythenorth>and leap years, when it inverts
16:21<andythenorth>engine stats ‘upgrade' constantly
16:22<andythenorth>but may regress
16:22<andythenorth>I just need a name for this set
16:22<andythenorth>I thought of NUTS, but I think it’s taken :(
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16:25<andythenorth>what if we *collaborated* :o
16:25<andythenorth>maybe we could make a set with just no vehicles?
16:25<V453000>well then! I will try to start coding it tomorrow (: thanks for the input guys ... I am just afraid that I will run into some "out of IDs" or "too many switch results" thing
16:25<V453000>but lets see
16:25<V453000>gnight (: thanks
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16:46<Wolf01>/o/ ... \o\ ... /o/
17:12<@planetmaker>V453000, out of IDs? you really need 64k? :P (well... 8k for articulated)
17:13<@planetmaker>or was it 16k for articulated?
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17:18<Eddi|zuHause>16k i believe
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>CETS can grow about 4 times bigger before i run into trouble
17:31<Phreeze>lol found that thread about bad features xD
17:33<frosch123>usually people who start a thread take offence on replies
17:33<frosch123>it's a new thing that it is the other way around :p
17:34<andythenorth>not unusual for purno
17:36<frosch123>no idea, he's one of the guys whose profile says thousands of posts, but i cannot remember seeing any of them
17:37<frosch123>some people only post in areas i do not read :)
17:40<@planetmaker>he used to be active drawing. But that's long ago.
17:40<@planetmaker>His replies in that thread are typical for recent times
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>which thread are you talking about anyway?
17:41<frosch123>the thread of the day
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17:44<@planetmaker>the one which could also be titled "I never will apply as ambassador" :P
17:44<davidstrauss>Is there a way to configure the replacement of existing vehicles with the existing type without using a deep, advanced option?
17:45<davidstrauss>Often, vehicles get too old before any newer tech is available.
17:45<@planetmaker>you mean like autorenew instead of autoreplace?
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17:46<davidstrauss>planetmaker: I'm aware of that option. It just seems like there should be a better, more discoverable way.
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17:46<@planetmaker>then you'll be disappointed
17:47<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r26428 /trunk/src (fios_gui.cpp lang/english.txt) (2014-03-25 21:47:07 UTC)
17:47<@DorpsGek>-Add [FS#5953]: Load button for heightmap list
17:48<@planetmaker>davidstrauss, afaik that setting is active by default. So it would not need adjustment
17:49<frosch123>i am quite sure it isn't :)
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>davidstrauss: do you have a suggestion how that would be better available?
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>i would be surprised if that is on by default
17:50<@planetmaker>ok :)
17:50<@planetmaker>why actually isn't it?
17:51<@planetmaker>if breakdowns are on, autoreplace with reasonable money safety margin probably should be on :)
17:51<@planetmaker>err... autorenew
17:51<davidstrauss>Eddi|zuHause: It would work fine for me if the same technology were available in "replace vehicles."
17:51<davidstrauss>Eddi|zuHause: The tool already allows you to configure replacement purchases if the technology is different.
17:52<@planetmaker>I guess that makes sense
17:52<davidstrauss>Obviously, it wouldn't make sense to allow using the "replace all" option with the same tech, but "replace old" would be useful with the same tech.
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>there was an ancient topic about combining both features, so you could do "replace this vehicle to that vehicle when old"
17:53<frosch123>that went into trunk :p
17:53<frosch123>anyway, we could convert the current setting into a default setting for the autoreplace dialog
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't played for several years, i might have missed some features :p
17:54<frosch123>i.e. new engines either default to "no replacement" or "replace with same when old"
17:54<frosch123>similar as for the non-stop setting and such
17:55<frosch123>that way people do not need to know about the setting, and can click all engines in every game one by one :p
17:55<@planetmaker>25% would
17:55<davidstrauss>Would be helpful, too, if there were a clear way to get to the "replace vehicles" dialog from the old vehicle warning.
17:55<@planetmaker>that's more difficult, I think :)
17:56<frosch123>yeah, we have no clippy :)
17:57<davidstrauss>Well, OpenTTD has the in-your-face half of Clippy without the next-steps part. ;-)
17:59-!-luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>"looks like you're trying to build a railway line, can i help you with that?"
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18:01<Eddi|zuHause>"looks like you're trying to build a cyclotrone. there's not going to be any benefit of that, you should stop-" .p
18:01<davidstrauss>But the cyclotrone is the fastest transportation option yet!
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18:04<frosch123>"you ar eusing a terrible train set - click here to see how to improve on it"
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>so... the thread is basically "YOU DARED CRITICISING MY SET?!?!"
18:08<alluke>hah....historical flags on 2cc set
18:09<alluke>nazi flags would cause incredible amount of butthurt
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18:22<Eddi|zuHause>you could get in real trouble for those
18:23<@planetmaker>yes, I would not like my servers being confiscated on grounds of propagating or showing nazi symbols
18:23<alluke>real trouble?
18:23<@planetmaker>And I guess no-one would want that here. It would hurt many people ;)
18:23<@planetmaker>real trouble
18:23<@planetmaker>like police shutting down and I getting sued
18:24<alluke>do you live in north korea?
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18:24<@planetmaker>I live in Germany. And nazi symbols are illegal here
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>you could try to argue it's for historic/educational/artistic content
18:24<@planetmaker>yes, that would be my defence. But... not worth the trouble
18:25<alluke>funny since more people was killed in ussr
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>because technically, they're only illegal if you use them to identify yourself with such groups
18:25*andythenorth -> bed
18:25<@planetmaker>g'night andythenorth
18:25<alluke>double moralism fuck yeah
18:25<andythenorth>before inevitable Godwin
18:25<andythenorth>sometimes you can smell one in the air
18:25<@planetmaker>I'm sure it already slammed-down hard
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>there was a big legal battle a few years ago over an icon where someone threw a swastika into a garbage bin
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18:26<@planetmaker>yeah. Anti-fashists sold those. And iirc they got sued and only won in the 2nd revision or so
18:27<alluke>antifas are total clowns
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18:28<@planetmaker>I prefer clowns over murderers
18:28<djura-san>Hi there. I was wondering what is the availability of diesel trains?
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>depends on which NewGRFs you use
18:29<alluke>depends on your train set(s) you're using and year
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>oh, and climate
18:29<djura-san>SO what is the lifespan of dieles trains?
18:30<djura-san>blah, bad keyboard
18:30<@planetmaker>1900 - ever. Quite variable
18:30<djura-san>planetmaker: but will i be able to buy them in 2120?
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>with the default set: no
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>unless you switch on "vehicles never expire"
18:31<@planetmaker>and what eddi said
18:31<djura-san>but that is like cheating :\\\\\\\\\
18:31<djura-san>dammit, my keyboard is off power, ignore it
18:32<@planetmaker>I don't consider that cheating
18:32<@planetmaker>It's also not recorded in the cheat menu ;)
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>if it were cheating, it would be a cheat :)
18:32<@planetmaker>it's a valid setting
18:33<djura-san>Okay then. SO i can set that up and just use it? With that option on i will be able to use diesel trains for their regular price (for that year) till the end of the time?
18:33<@planetmaker>inflation applies, if it's enabled
18:34<djura-san>i believe it is, by default
18:34<@planetmaker>but with vehicles-never-expire, they're available till the end of OpenTTD time, yes
18:36<djura-san>planetmaker: why i sid i conider it cheating: i wiiiileave te pc on for the night and generate as much money as i can using current build. Since it is not 2050, i must wait to get to the last upgrades in all vehicles
18:37<@planetmaker>I would rather suggest to cheat money, if your real joy is building rather than waiting for income
18:37<@planetmaker>it would actually save you real money on electricity
18:37<djura-san>but cheats are recorded forever :>
18:37<@planetmaker>so who cares?
18:38<djura-san>true dat
18:38<@planetmaker>setting changes, too ;)
18:38<alluke>oh yeaaaah
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18:38<alluke>leftists left the government
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---Logclosed Wed Mar 26 00:00:47 2014