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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-03-26

---Logopened Wed Mar 26 00:00:47 2014
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04:59<Endymion_Mallorn>Hi all. I just downloaded the OpenGFX+ Mars terrain, and the Mars Heightmap, and the Martian Town Names. Those are based on real-Mars places, are there any based on Barsoom?
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05:11<supermop>cant wait for stations in nml
05:19<@planetmaker>hm... nml
05:20<@planetmaker>bridges and stations missing. still.
05:22<@peter1138>Do it!
05:40<V453000>or else! :D
05:43<supermop>what is everyone working on up on the correct side of the globe?
05:46<@planetmaker>shaking marbles ;)
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05:51<krinn>hi again
05:51<V453000>rendering shit and pondering new nuts features :D
05:52<krinn>i have 10 strings in eints that i don't want to be translate (only present in english.txt). Is there a tag, comment... to mark them "don't translate that" ?
06:01<@planetmaker>there is no such tag, no
06:01<@planetmaker>why don#t you want them translated?
06:02<krinn>to be kept only in english.txt, so other language miss it and display the one from english.txt
06:02<@planetmaker>so much was obvious. But why?
06:02<@planetmaker>don't tell me you're concerned about file size
06:03<krinn>:) no
06:03<krinn>just to have a common property
06:03<@planetmaker>I hear the file size argument often from some NewGRF authors :D
06:03<@planetmaker>while a single vehicle sprite is larger :D
06:04<krinn>i never doubt they are insane :)
06:05<@planetmaker>what do you need a 'common property' for? Which strings exactly do you talk about?
06:05<krinn>i use common property to credit translators, everyone update english.txt part, everyone get the same result. Else they might just add it to their own language, but i want any language to display their names.
06:05<@planetmaker>{ORANGE}{STRING} ?
06:06<krinn>for that also yes
06:06<@planetmaker>and also credits do need translation
06:06<krinn>but only the credit i care
06:06<krinn>there's no translation to names
06:06<@planetmaker>In English I write "krin, planetmaker, and andy". In German I write "krin, planetmaker and andy" (mind the missing ",")
06:06<juzza1>you can remove those unwanted strings from the lang files, then append your common strings from an external file to the english.lng before building
06:07<@planetmaker>krinn, really, you should enough faith in your translators to translate correctly
06:08<@planetmaker>in case of doubt they are lazy and use "copy string"
06:08<__ln___>krinn: actually you are mistaken, there *are* translations for names
06:08<@planetmaker> (Correct) STR_LGS_AUTHOR : Krinn (english, french) lugo (german) <-- that one definitely needs translation
06:08<@planetmaker>and like __ln__ says
06:09<krinn>it's that one yep
06:09<@planetmaker>Treebeard is translated rightfully into Baumbart. Or king's landing into Königsmund
06:09<krinn>if anyone do swedish : you end with english.txt remain as is and swedish one with the name added
06:09<__ln___>the author of the Da Vinci Code is known as "Dens Brauns" in latvia, for example.
06:09<krinn>so only swedish users will see it
06:10<@planetmaker>krinn, you don't end up that way. english.txt is the one which defines 'correct'
06:10<@planetmaker>eints will complain if english.txt is newer for that string
06:10<@planetmaker>so *you* change english.txt. Translators handle the rest. And are notified of the changes to English strings
06:11<@planetmaker>so yes, translations can lag sometimes. But not translating the credits is worse
06:12<@planetmaker>if you're concerned about having it all right: before a release edit each language file and update that particular string
06:12<@planetmaker>you have the commit rights on everything
06:13<krinn>erf, more work when it was suppose to lower it
06:13<@planetmaker>You anyway want to update credits from time to time, checking eints commit logs
06:13<krinn>i don't have to edit any credits right now, people update them in english.txt and its done
06:14<@peter1138>Just add your translators' names to the english version. Then they will just copy that and not have something unique to that language.
06:14<@planetmaker>lol. And *who* updates english.txt and whatever.txt manually? Checking strings for correctness, syntactically etc?
06:14<@planetmaker>who is troubled with code pages and utf or not utf?
06:14<@peter1138>planetmaker, probably no-one ;)
06:14<@planetmaker>just like peter said
06:14<@planetmaker>yeah :P
06:15<@planetmaker>krinn, do you make sure that the plurals and cases for each translation are correct? Correctly defined in the respective language files?
06:16<krinn>hmmm, mmm what ?
06:16<@planetmaker>or do you just accept it to break (unknown to you and the translators)?
06:16<krinn>the plural form works, but if you speak about "define plural form", gamescript fail with that
06:17<krinn>so you can do {P "" s} in gr_GB and openttd handle it, but if you add how plural should work in it, openttd reject the file (or i made something wrong, but last time i have just try on a copy of openttd lang file itself)
06:19<@peter1138>Bah, wish my ADSL was working :S
06:25<@planetmaker>krinn, for example. And eints will simply create the correct headers for you for new translations which people start (when using eints to start it)
06:25<@planetmaker>or your battling with the invalid utf chars etc
06:25<@planetmaker>that's a thing of the past then
06:26<@planetmaker>but if updating english.txt with credits is more work than updating english.txt and all other language files with credits, then I'm out of arguments
06:26<@planetmaker>Besides that I usually put translation credits in the readme. Easy that way :)
06:27<krinn>credits are given from the gs main page
06:27<krinn>:) you knows nobody read the readme, that's why it's name "readme"
06:28<Xaroth|Work>people are idiots, it is known.
06:29<krinn>well, i suppose they just prefer click and go then having to read something. And my readme is in english only (i'm not even sure i have one)
06:29<krinn>ok, checked, i have one
06:41<krinn>planetmaker, did you check the reject in english.txt with plural and no in other language trouble ?
06:42<krinn> s/no/not
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07:20<@planetmaker>I didn't check anything. Should I have checked anything, krinn ?
07:22<@planetmaker>krinn, I see that many of your strings use a leading space. I believe that's wrong to do
07:22<@planetmaker>s/: /:/g on lang/*.txt
07:23<@planetmaker>not actually many. But all
07:29<NGC3982>Am i unable to set the order condition: "Stay for hundred days OR wait for full load"?
07:29<NGC3982>Or do i set a 100 day stay, and then a skip to "travel" order when load is full? Should that work? :>
07:31<NGC3982>It did not.
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08:00<__ln___>"You can recover from Microsoft and its suppliers only direct damages up to U.S. $5.00."
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08:57<andythenorth>V453000: BAD FEATURE: wrong capacities
08:58<V453000>HOW BAD
08:58<V453000>also what do you mean by that
08:58<V453000>cutey 60t capacity per 8/8? :P
08:58<andythenorth>capacities should be 20, 30, 40 units
08:59<andythenorth>and then 50 or 60 for ‘big’ things
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08:59<V453000>more than 40 per wagon is retarded for 200kmh train
08:59<andythenorth>my sets have had too many 37t or 9t or whatever
08:59<andythenorth>V453000: depends
08:59<V453000>that isnt an issue in my eyes
08:59<andythenorth>I like, e.g. double deck cars with 60, but slower loading or whatever
09:00<andythenorth>but also
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09:00<andythenorth>loading speeds are a BAD FEATURE
09:00<V453000>slower loading doesnt really hurt much
09:00<V453000>loading speeds are excellent, trains not documenting them properly is bad :)
09:00<andythenorth>also the cargo payment rate adjustment is a BAD FEATURE
09:01<andythenorth>also railtype power adjustment is a BAD FEATURE
09:02<V453000>wat that is
09:02<V453000>train gaining moar powah on railtype X?
09:02<V453000>is awesome :D
09:02<andythenorth>and how does user find out about it?
09:02<andythenorth>or AI?
09:03<andythenorth>also pissy vehicle progression ladder is a BAD FEATURE
09:03<V453000>AI can fuck off and user gets taught in the purchase menu
09:03<andythenorth>progression should be BIG STUFF
09:04<andythenorth>for example in Iron Horse, the fast passenger loco does 100mph
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09:04<andythenorth>and the next one does *100mph*
09:04<andythenorth>so it’s much better
09:04<andythenorth>but one is *steam* and one is *diesel*
09:04<andythenorth>which is very important
09:04<V453000>does it at least get more power, capacity, anything? :D
09:05<andythenorth>ok, so it is 1750hp vs. 2700hp, and it’s 8/8 instead of 12/8 :P
09:05<andythenorth>but you spoil my trolling :(
09:05*andythenorth is just dicking around waiting for lunch
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09:06*V453000 noticed something along those lines
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11:04<andythenorth>V453000: BAD FEATURE: using real world stats
11:08<@planetmaker>given the funky definition of length in OpenTTD, I don't even know what 'real world stats' would be :)
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11:23<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: typically that's a "error code was lost somewhere, so we resolved error code 0"
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11:25<krinn>planetmaker> I didn't check anything. Should I have checked anything, krinn ? <- yep maybe, why some strings are reject in english.txt while ok in other language ?
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11:26<@planetmaker>please be more specific, krinn
11:26<krinn>getting example 2s
11:28<krinn>check STR_AWARD_OWN_MULTI
11:30<krinn>french/german is tag correct, englihs is tag invalid
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11:32<@planetmaker>Does GS allow 16 parameters for a single string?
11:32<@planetmaker>I seem to recall from NewGRFs that strings do not allow more than 8 parameters
11:32<krinn>don't remember, checking
11:33<alluke>heqs doesn't allow clay on dumpers
11:34<@planetmaker>hm... is it {NUM} not {COMMA}?
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11:36<@planetmaker> <-- only mentions {COMMA} not {NUM}
11:37<@planetmaker>krinn, same format as OpenTTD doesn't say about parameter number :)
11:37<@planetmaker>actually the best description of OpenTTD's text format actually is eints' documentation
11:38<krinn>i don't get the {COMMA} vs {NUM}
11:38<krinn>doc says {COMMA} = 10,000 {NUM} = 10000
11:38<@planetmaker>the difference is COMMA vs NUM :)
11:38<krinn>companies cannot be bigger than 15, so {NUM} or {COMMA}...
11:38<@planetmaker>different spelling :D
11:40<@planetmaker>but obviously your GS works with {NUM}, it does, yes?
11:40<@planetmaker>so that should be an allowed tag
11:40<@planetmaker>but eints probably does consider it invalid currently
11:40<krinn>well, for 2 yes, for german i suppose
11:41<@planetmaker>no, no. Only consider english.txt
11:41<krinn>it's accept in openttd, i don't know visually if it's ok for german, and eints accept it in german and french
11:41<@planetmaker>german.txt and french.txt are alright as they depend on the base language and *require* the same tags as the base language.
11:42<krinn>ah, no validation on other than english.txt right ?
11:42<@planetmaker>that's the canonical form of tags which are considered
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>i still think that eints is struggling with the plural
11:42<@planetmaker>as in principle you might - at least for NewGRFs - define your own tags
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11:42<@planetmaker>I don't think that's the case, Eddi|zuHause
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>because almost all failed strings have plural tags, and no plural tag is in an accepted string
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>but it would really help if eints actually gave an error message
11:43<krinn>well, if number < 1000 {COMMA} == {NUM} no (for human), and for computer using {NUM} < {COMMA}
11:43<@planetmaker>All failed strings have {NUM} vs {COMMA}
11:43<@planetmaker>and {COMMA} is for NewGRFs, so eints might just not consider {NUM}
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>but some accepted strings have {NUM} as well
11:44<@planetmaker>the plural in that form works in dozens of projects
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11:46<alluke>andythenorth: why heq
11:46<alluke>s dumpers can't transport firs clay?
11:46<@planetmaker>krinn, best idea probably is to bug alberth when he returns
11:48<krinn>ok thank u
11:48<andythenorth>alluke: because no-one has fixed that bug
11:48<alluke>ah its a bug
11:48<andythenorth>it is a bug
11:52<andythenorth>someone could fix it
11:52<andythenorth>it’s probably easy
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>if only there were someone who understands cargo classes
11:53<andythenorth>if only my HEQS compile worked :P
11:53<andythenorth>actually I could probably just fix the code and push, see what the compile farm does
11:55<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I can’t remember how nfo works, cba to look up the spec
11:55<andythenorth>lines 10, 14, 15
11:55<andythenorth>are what needs changed
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>remove prop 16, use the include/exclude cargo lists
11:59<krinn>that eints should read and display the #comment on previous line of the string param. 1/ i add sometimes comment for translator on it 2/ it would allow eints to support some #$$$$$$$ tag for "don't translate next line"
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so remove line 10, add two lines: 24 00; 25 NN XX YY ZZ ...
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12:01<andythenorth>just let it refit bulk I reckon
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>where XX, YY, ZZ are index of cargo translation table, and NN is the number of entries listed
12:02<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: this is on CTT labels?
12:02<andythenorth>I can probably just set a class
12:02<andythenorth>maybe I have to go the docs :P
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no, position in CTT
12:02<andythenorth>yeah, sorry, same thing in my head
12:02<@planetmaker>I don't think it should spam the comments to translators
12:03<andythenorth>oh maybe clay has sheltered set or something
12:03<@planetmaker>and as discussed earlier: strings can all be translated, krinn. Everyone in your GS
12:03<@planetmaker>and they all need it
12:03<@planetmaker>and having {ORANGE}{STRING} "translated" doesn't hurt
12:04<krinn>nah, you don't translate name
12:04<@planetmaker>of course
12:04-!-luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
12:04*andythenorth is happy that merges are now allowed
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it already includes bulk
12:04<andythenorth>it excludes something
12:05<andythenorth>not having a build makes this a bit of a guessing game :P
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>"CLAY Clay 0210 Bulk covered/sheltered"
12:06<andythenorth>hmm HEQS isn’t building on push
12:06<@planetmaker>krinn, and the "no-translate-string" thing was extensively discussed. The use cases are marginal at best. And definitely not worth any trouble to implement
12:06<krinn>yep agree, could dub {ORANGE}{STRING}
12:06<krinn>not worth the effort
12:07<@planetmaker>the translators have a 'copy string' button. it's easy
12:07<andythenorth>planetmaker: I added push to .devzone for HEQS
12:07<andythenorth>will that get picked up?
12:07<@planetmaker>if you added it as described, it will
12:07<@planetmaker>probably in around an hour, if changes are made
12:07<andythenorth>ah ok
12:08*andythenorth might go and do some proper work
12:08<andythenorth>either I fixed HEQS, or broke it
12:08<andythenorth>dunno :P
12:08<@planetmaker>you broke it ;)
12:08<andythenorth>alluke: as the reporter of the bug, you can test the ‘fix'
12:08<andythenorth>when it turns up
12:08<@planetmaker>as you would have seen in .devzone channel
12:08<@planetmaker>compile failure. twice
12:08<andythenorth>bloody jenkins :)
12:09<andythenorth>oh yeah, you have to maintain counts and stuff in nfo
12:09<andythenorth>that was fun
12:09<andythenorth>and I don’t have renum to tell me
12:09<@planetmaker>it fails on missing definition in Makefile, I think
12:10<@planetmaker>just see the log :)
12:10<alluke>i wonder how noone havent reported such obvious bug earlier
12:10<@planetmaker>everybody though someone would do what anyone could do, thus noone did do
12:11<andythenorth>well it’s now properly broken :)
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12:11<andythenorth>I cba to fix it right now
12:11<@planetmaker>I need to fix my bike, too :)
12:11<andythenorth>I might try and fix my HEQS compile later, but it’s end of life
12:11<@planetmaker>that's more important now, I'm afraid. Bloody puncture
12:11<andythenorth>this is either the last HEQS fix, or the previous one was
12:11<andythenorth>planetmaker: kevlar tyres?
12:12<andythenorth>I got kevlar tyres in 2003 and have *never* had a puncture since
12:12<andythenorth>I have blown off three valves
12:12<andythenorth>and put a wire bead from the tyre through the tube
12:12<andythenorth>but I have also pulled 4 cm industrial staples and pieces of broken glass out of the tyre
12:12<andythenorth>with no puncture
12:13<andythenorth>maybe HEQS is officially dead
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: r773 compiles here
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if the local rev is the same as the global rev :p
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>Änderung: 773:2ce0bc35f69b
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>Nutzer: planetmaker <>
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>Datum: Wed Feb 19 22:23:08 2014 +0100
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>Zusammenfassung: Cleanup: [Makefile] Remove unneeded pieces from old version(s)
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12:17<andythenorth>that looks a bit behind
12:17<andythenorth>r777 is my tip
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>that is right before your changes, yes
12:19<andythenorth>maybe that should be in a newgrf :P
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: why does r774 change so much?
12:28<alluke>had to build a rail trough city to get the clay
12:31<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: :o
12:31<andythenorth>I didn’t diff before pushing
12:31<andythenorth>must be historical crap
12:31<andythenorth>I haven’t touched or built HEQS for ~18 months
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>weirdly, r775 build here, with sed errors on readme stuff
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>but r777 reports renum errors
12:32<andythenorth>yeah I think that’s a bad property count somewhere
12:32*andythenorth flying blind :P
12:32<andythenorth>can’t even find the log on jenkins right now
12:32<andythenorth>looks like I should have pushed 774 in a branch :P
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>/!!Warning (99): No more data was expected. Found 28 bytes, expected 25 bytes.
12:34<andythenorth>that is probably in template_mining_trucks_commonaction0.tnfo
12:34<andythenorth>probably \b8 is worng
12:34<andythenorth>wrong *
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12:34<andythenorth>my nfo skills are rusty to the extreme
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>why did you even change that?
12:35<andythenorth>I removed a prop 16
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>+ 1A 00 // Refit cost, using 25% of the purchase price cost base
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>so just roll back r777
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>because you added a property and forgot to increase it :p
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>hm, this was weirdly commented out before
12:39<andythenorth>for no obvious reason, that property was previously there, but commented
12:39<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, if you look at the jenkins output: heqs builds. But the build fails due to sed errors on readme
12:39<andythenorth>looking like it was an accident
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: yes, same for me
12:39-!-luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>there were some weird makefile changes in r774
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>probably should just roll them back
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>i don't suppose i have push rights for heqs :p
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so roll back r777 and the makefile changes of r774, then it should build
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12:46<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you just gained rights :P
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>mäh..., now i have to actually do stuff :p
12:48<andythenorth>my feeling exactly :P
12:48<@planetmaker>I haven't exactly installed the acl extension on the DevZone yet. So...
12:48<andythenorth>I have been using this heqs bug to motivate working on my RV set
12:49<andythenorth>as I couldn’t easily win a NCG GS game :P
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12:49<andythenorth>involving clay
12:49<andythenorth>I had to build actual trains
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>is there an official hg way to remove a commit?
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>other than "you just created another head"
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12:56<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: should be building now
12:58<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, hg backout
13:00<@planetmaker>__ln___, but it's not April 1st!
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13:02<krinn>does this mean bald korean will be execute ?
13:03<__ln___>there are no bald koreans
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13:50<andythenorth>my HEQS build is sulking about clang I think
13:50<andythenorth>oh well
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14:17<djura-san>so how do you actually use sawmills? I just place them after founding and then what?
14:17<djura-san>I see no forest around it
14:18<@planetmaker>click one. See what it wants
14:18<@planetmaker>Usually that will be wood
14:18<@planetmaker>Thus: Deliver wood
14:18<djura-san>How can i deliver wood to it?
14:18<@planetmaker>also learn about the industry chain view. As accessible from the industry view
14:19<djura-san>That is my question actually
14:19<@planetmaker>build a station near it.
14:19<@planetmaker>similar like you ship coal from a mine to the powerplant
14:19<@planetmaker>you ship wood from a forest to a sawmill
14:19<djura-san>I noticed that station accepts wood now.
14:19<djura-san>planetmaker: and another stupid question: to make the train get wood from forest...
14:20<djura-san>ah i get it now :D
14:20<djura-san>thank you planetmaker
14:20<@planetmaker>a forest is an industry. Not just a random tree on the map :)
14:20<@planetmaker>use the minimap to search for them
14:20<djura-san>Okay, i dont get it then. What if i have no forests?
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14:21<+glx>the green spots on the green map ;)
14:21<@planetmaker>then the sawmill is pointless to have :)
14:21<djura-san>Okay then. Thank you.
14:21<@planetmaker>there can be terrain conditions where it's very hard to have one. In arctic they need to be above snow line and on somewhat flat terrain
14:21<@planetmaker>thus if you have no snow, then no forests
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14:22<djura-san>and if i select "founding industries only" at the begining, no fun to play it with industries at all :)
14:24<djura-san>One more question: is it possible to remove building texture or somehow hide it so i can just see clean roads? Poking using sense is not very productive nor good
14:25<@planetmaker>press ctrl+x. Adjust settings
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14:25<djura-san>this is so awesome. THank you planetmaker
14:25<@planetmaker>furtheron, just use x to toggle transparency / invisibiltiy
14:25<djura-san>even more awesome :D
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14:29<Wolf01>hi hi
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14:29<djura-san>older game saves are usable on never versions right? Is there something that i should be aware of in case of migrating from version to version?
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14:32<Eddi|zuHause>unless you used custom patchpacks, all you have to do is install and start the new version
14:39<djura-san>may i ask how to delete that leftover of road turn without destroying the whole tile? I dont wanna rebuild it again so that it stays as city property and not mine
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>press "r" while building
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>works with most build tools
14:41<djura-san>thank you. YOu just saved ma 1 road tile that dont have to pay
14:41<djura-san>I will keep that in mind Eddi|zuHause
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>especially useful when you want to remove a bus stop
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14:43<djura-san>True that.
14:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26429 /trunk/src/lang (7 files) (2014-03-26 18:46:00 UTC)
14:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:46<@DorpsGek>catalan - 1 changes by juanjo
14:46<@DorpsGek>croatian - 1 changes by Tifached
14:46<@DorpsGek>luxembourgish - 1 changes by Phreeze
14:46<@DorpsGek>polish - 25 changes by Kilian
14:46<@DorpsGek>russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
14:46<@DorpsGek>slovak - 2 changes by Milsa
14:46<@DorpsGek>spanish - 3 changes by juanjo
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15:02<andythenorth>V453000: I think everyone has misunderstood your question :(
15:02<andythenorth>except me
15:02<andythenorth>I am specially awesome
15:04<Phreeze>that's what your mum said
15:04<V453000>andythenorth: I am not sure if the retards even realize that I actually already created such set 2 years ago :D
15:04<andythenorth>phreeze yeah, your mum told me my mum had said
15:05<Phreeze>how nice they are :)
15:05<V453000>but yeah, you misunderstand the logic of forums, aim is not to reply sensibly, but to reply
15:05<andythenorth>Phreeze: let’s not raise the game on ‘your mum'
15:05<andythenorth>it goes badly
15:06<frosch123>does that mean you do not consider my concerns about train sets not supporting autorefit?
15:06<andythenorth>does your mum consider them?
15:06<andythenorth>oh, what has started :(
15:06<frosch123>need to google that
15:06<andythenorth>it’s an absolute rule in England that when someone starts ‘your mum’ you have to keep it going
15:06<andythenorth>your mum keeps going
15:07<V453000>frosch123: :D
15:07<andythenorth>Phreeze: can you declare game over or something
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15:13<frosch123>drones so strong
15:14<andythenorth>V453000: I kind of want to argue in that thread just to provide a counter-point :P
15:14<andythenorth>it’s really annoying when everyone is nice and appreciative and reasonable
15:14<V453000>andythenorth: now the idea is just to let them rage
15:14<V453000>the more they rage the better
15:17<andythenorth>V453000: if I post my thoughts it might cause trouble
15:17<andythenorth>“nearly every train newgrf I have tried is not as good as the default vehicles"
15:17<V453000>entirely valid
15:18<V453000>go ahead please :)
15:20<frosch123>i wouldn't actually agree with that :p
15:20<frosch123>the default vehicles are actually quite bad
15:21<andythenorth>they’re pretty good if you don’t use FIRS
15:21<frosch123>you need at least ogfx+ stuff to add refitting instread of single cargo
15:21<andythenorth>I had opengfx+ forced on me by MP games
15:21<andythenorth>I would never have chosen it willingly
15:21<V453000>frosch123: there are more than TEN vehicle generations. NONE of the newGRFs has that
15:21<andythenorth>but it’s actually pretty good fun
15:21<V453000>sadly, none
15:22<V453000>in no newGRF, you never autoreplace ten times
15:22<andythenorth>oh maglev and crap
15:22<V453000>well 9 in temperate without monorail or maglev
15:22<V453000>not even counting that
15:22*andythenorth looks
15:22<frosch123>V453000: you are mixiing issues
15:23<V453000>why so?
15:23<V453000>it is one of the most important aspects of a train set
15:23<frosch123>you should separate between "years between generations" and "total timeframe"
15:23<V453000>how many vehicles it provides
15:23<V453000>I didnt say anything about timeframe
15:23<frosch123>most sets only work for < 80 years, which is too few for 10 generations
15:23<V453000>not my problem if they still provide e.g. 200 vehicles
15:23<V453000>and 195 of them are worthless
15:24<andythenorth>there are only 68 years in default between the trains
15:24<andythenorth>worst - best
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15:25<frosch123>well, i guess it boils down to people playing ottd as a game, and people using ottd as a drawing program to create sceneries
15:25<frosch123>there are people who use ottd only to create screenshots
15:25*andythenorth compares default and IH
15:25<frosch123>and then ask what cargodist is for :p
15:25<frosch123>cargodist does not add anything to screenshots!
15:25<frosch123>it's a terrible feature
15:25<V453000>cargodist doesnt add anything to normal gameplay either.........
15:25<V453000>just like autorefit
15:26<frosch123>depends no your "normal" :p
15:26<andythenorth>normal is point to point lines
15:26<andythenorth>as per original TTD
15:26<frosch123>autorefit is a workaround for not having consist replacement
15:26<andythenorth>don’t use signals, they are broken
15:26<andythenorth>build as many tracks as trains
15:27<andythenorth>IH has 20 locos, default has 14
15:27<andythenorth>IH starts 1870, default 1925
15:27<frosch123>rct has no junctions, does it?
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15:33*andythenorth busy busy removing vehicles
15:34<andythenorth>V453000: how many vehicles in NUTS now?
15:34*andythenorth looks
15:34<frosch123>something like 10-20 per class
15:34<V453000>idk shitload
15:34<frosch123>with around 10 classes
15:34<V453000>9 per class
15:34<V453000>44 final train choice
15:34<V453000>(different usage trains)
15:35<V453000>some even have 4 per class only
15:35<V453000>ok 33
15:35<frosch123>hmm, indeed, only 9
15:35<alluke>combined roadset doesn't work on 1.4.0 rc1
15:37<alluke>its green at the bottom of grf list and i still get ogfx roads
15:37<andythenorth>V453000: delete like 50%? Deleting is much more fun than making...
15:38<V453000>andythenorth: solved that by making expiring vehicles work
15:38<andythenorth>how did you do it?
15:38<V453000>now removing all wagons and trying to supplement them with one ultimate wagon
15:38<andythenorth>I have failed so far at expiring
15:38<V453000>adding model age?
15:38<frosch123>you need to enable expiration in advanced settings :p
15:38<V453000>it is made so that 1-3 trains per class are available, not more
15:39<V453000>oh yeah plus that obviously
15:39<andythenorth>I had some formula to remove the old model when new model appears
15:39<andythenorth>but it didn’t work
15:39<V453000>that would be helpful
15:40<andythenorth>specifying a replacement model (by ID) in action 0 would be helpful
15:40<andythenorth>then AI and OTTD could sort it out
15:40<V453000>Also, when I started using nuts with expiring vehicles, I dicovered that e.g. most RV newGRFs are totally useless in year 2100
15:40<andythenorth>V453000: I think you can shorten that statement
15:40<frosch123>andythenorth: play ttd :p
15:41<andythenorth>“most RV newGRFs are totally useless”
15:41<Eddi|zuHause><V453000> frosch123: there are more than TEN vehicle generations. NONE of the newGRFs has that <-- one of the design goals for CETS was a new vehicle generation every 10 years [which means 10 generations over 100 years]
15:41<V453000>:D well yeah but in useless here I mean there arent any vehicles, even for my hopes like egrvts ._.
15:41<frosch123>heqs is the only useful one, except it has the usual andy problems
15:42<frosch123>almost no intro dates
15:42<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: tell me when CETS is done :P
15:42<frosch123>maybe that is andys problem
15:42<andythenorth>what is no intro dates in HEQS? :o
15:42<frosch123>most vehicles are available all the time, so there are too many to pick from
15:42-!-retro|cz [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:42<andythenorth>when playing are you?
15:42<frosch123>whenever i play heqs i have 5 of 6 trams already available
15:43<frosch123>am i playing it wrong? :p
15:43<andythenorth>there are too many trams :P
15:43<andythenorth>is problem
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: CETS is "done" if you don't care about graphics :)
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: i'm sure you'll find something to complain about
15:45<Eddi|zuHause> <alluke> combined roadset doesn't work on 1.4.0 rc1 <-- iirc the bridge part of combroads is broken, disable it (parameter) and use newbridges.
15:45<V453000>graphics are kind of the biggest part of work on a newGRF Eddi, sorry :D
15:46<V453000>anyway gtg
15:46<andythenorth>bye V453000
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>speaking of which, can i call pixeltool from python?
15:46<andythenorth>maybe I have ‘solved’ an RV set this time
15:46<andythenorth>I think this is 5th (?) attempt
15:46<andythenorth>now just have to code it
15:47<andythenorth>I have binned last week’s effort
15:47<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: what is it? PHP or JS?
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's JS
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't actually try it
15:48<andythenorth>what do you want to do?
15:48<andythenorth>you could write a python http app that makes calls to it?
15:48<andythenorth>or just pass them to curl?
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>throw a JSON at it and get an image out
15:48<andythenorth>zeph has it hosted as a web service?
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>or rather, throw 1000 JSONs at it
15:49<andythenorth>maybe run your own version locally then :P
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>i'm thinking something compile-farm-y
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it should be local code that is run
15:49<andythenorth>I wonder if you can run Zeph’s JS in node?
15:50<andythenorth>I know nothing about node, other than some aspects of it are a joke
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>actually, just calling it from the makefile should do
15:50<andythenorth>you have a JS execution environment?
15:50<andythenorth>maybe phantom js would do it
15:51<andythenorth>I am poking in the dark
15:51<frosch123>it's runs client side
15:51<frosch123>the http part is useless for python
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: the point is, which interpeter to call?
15:52<frosch123>you need a not-browser-based javascript interpreter
15:52<alluke>is there any grf for green ttd oneway arrows
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but i don't know any
15:53<andythenorth>or you script phantom js to make calls and then save the output
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>alluke: get them out of openttd.grf?
15:53<frosch123>i always considered the green arrows the ugliest part of openttd.grf :p
15:53<frosch123>the white arrows are much nicher
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>alluke: in you openttd dev environment, look in media/extra_grf
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>just give it a GRF-ID and you have a [newgrf-static]-able GRF
15:59<alluke>where do i find openttd dev environment?
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>alluke: you check out the source code
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>or on
16:01<frosch123>or put the md5sum of openttd.grf into opengfx.obg
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>"seamonkey-venkman" <-- is that a ghostbusters reference?
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>oh, so googling "venkman" only has ghostbusters as 3rd result
16:16<frosch123>hmm, i never saw ghostbusters
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>i had some ghostbusters episode as audio tape
16:17<frosch123>i thought i knew all legendary movies
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>not the movie, the cartoon series
16:17<frosch123>there is a cartoon series?
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>in which country did you grow up? :p
16:19<frosch123>with pal tv
16:20<frosch123>never heard about that one
16:20<frosch123>but well, i wouldn't bother about a series anyway
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16:22<andythenorth>pikka le bird
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16:32<Pikka>it might do
16:37<andythenorth>what if it doesn’t?
16:38<Pikka>then there will be no maglevs
16:38<Pikka>but what of andy truck sim 2?
16:39<andythenorth>le maclef
16:39<andythenorth>Pikka: I had to delete most of it
16:39<andythenorth>I made it and looked at it
16:39<andythenorth>not good
16:39<andythenorth>can’t be helped :P
16:40<andythenorth>I’ll just make it again quickly now
16:40<andythenorth>hang on
16:40*Pikka hang son
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16:47<@peter1138>What should I do?
16:47<andythenorth>go north
16:47<Pikka>newairports, peter1138
16:48<Pikka>Eddi|zuHause, silly melbournians
16:48<Pikka>peter1138, articulated shipbusses
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: didn't you want to do newgrf presets? :)
16:50<@peter1138>Yeah but now
16:50<@peter1138>Still confused where font-kerning came from :p
16:52<Pikka>oldgrf postsets
16:52<@peter1138>Yes yes
16:54<frosch123>did you ponder pondering?
16:56<Flygon>I'm not silly
16:56<Flygon>Just single decker!
16:58<Flygon>And don't diss it til you've visited the Dumb Ways To Die theme park!
16:58<andythenorth>somewhat fixed it
16:58<Flygon>Anyway. Off I go, on a rusty constantly-air compressing Comeng :U
16:58<andythenorth>76m views
17:00<andythenorth>truck sim 2 remade
17:00<andythenorth>need some names for stuff
17:00<Pikka>names are overrated
17:00<Pikka>"truck 1", "truck 2", etc
17:00<andythenorth>oh you saw my tracking table :(
17:00<Pikka>"small truck", "big truck"
17:01<Pikka>"another truck"
17:01<frosch123>if your set has 5 trucks you can name them pakka, pekka, pikka, pokka, pukka
17:01<@peter1138>Hmm, so many options, dunno what to set...
17:01<Pikka>the TTO demo had "old plane", "old bus"
17:02<Pikka>yep. but only the AI could build them, the player was limited to trains
17:02<frosch123>sounds like "modern armor" in civ
17:03<andythenorth>which of these is most correct?
17:03<andythenorth>case is ‘small fast container truck'
17:03<frosch123>speaking about realism: if you do not have tanks in 1400 in civ, you probably lose :p
17:03<Pikka>number 2, andythenorth
17:05<andythenorth>that’s reasonable
17:05<Pikka>cabover semis are the bestests
17:06<frosch123>comparing 2nd with 3rd, the toytruck is out of scale
17:07<frosch123>the 1st one looks very wrong
17:07<frosch123>it has a long front, is a one-piece without trailer, and has a weird small crane on the back, which has no use for a container
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17:08<Pikka>big exhaust pipe though
17:08<frosch123>sometimes trucks have forklifts on the back, but for containers they are pointless as well
17:08<Pikka>and shiny mudguards
17:08<andythenorth>it’s a sideloader container thing no?
17:09<Pikka>I don't think so, I think it's just a crane
17:10<Pikka> style of business
17:10<andythenorth>I was thinking of doing a thing
17:11<Pikka>you know what we need, peter1138?
17:12<Pikka>a flag which tells us whether the vehicle is loading or unloading. for tipper trucks and the like.
17:13<andythenorth>we do? :o
17:14<Pikka>don't we?
17:14<frosch123>there is, but it is not exposed to newgrf
17:14<Pikka>well yes, that's what I mean, frosch123 :)
17:14<frosch123>should we just add it to var ff?
17:15<Pikka>we should
17:15<andythenorth>what will I do with it?
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17:15<andythenorth>unloading spriteses?
17:16<andythenorth>do I have to support losers whol play past 2020?
17:16<andythenorth>who *
17:16<frosch123>actualy even ttdp has that flag in that var
17:17<andythenorth>if you haven’t won NCG or SV in 100 years with a 1920 start, then you are loser in my book of rules :P
17:17<frosch123>need to figure out whether it is bit 0 or 1 though
17:17<Pikka>I don't know, andy
17:17<Pikka>I feel the same way, I mean who even uses maglevs? waste of time...
17:17<andythenorth>you are making some?
17:18<Pikka>probably should
17:18<andythenorth>I am not even trolling now :P
17:18<andythenorth>I’d rather spend the time making 150 years of good stuff, not 300 years of “I made too much, I got bored now"
17:18<andythenorth>making = newgrfing :P
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17:27<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26430 trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp (2014-03-26 21:27:37 UTC)
17:27<@DorpsGek>-Feature(ette): Add vehicle modflag 1 (unloading in progress).
17:33<frosch123> <- correct naming?
17:34<andythenorth>looks good
17:34<andythenorth>who knows what evils authors will do with that :)
17:35<andythenorth>so will the purchase menu gain auto-refit and loading speed info?
17:36<andythenorth>or do I have to keep putting it in myself?
17:36<Pikka>no, and no. :D
17:37<frosch123>it will certainly not get autorefit info for a long time :)
17:38<frosch123>loading speed info has the problem that there is no decent unit for it
17:38<frosch123>"units per day" is silly :p
17:38<andythenorth>it’s unitless :P
17:38<frosch123>so, better put in some custom text like "fast" or "very fast"
17:38<andythenorth>what limits autorefit?
17:38<andythenorth>it’s just a bool
17:39<frosch123>you would want to know which cargos support it
17:39<frosch123>which involves a lot of magic
17:39<andythenorth>all of them have to
17:39<frosch123>esp. for articulated vehicles
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17:39<frosch123>so i doubt it will happen without vehicle sandboxing
17:40<andythenorth>I was just proposing reading the flag :P
17:40<andythenorth>looked like 1 or 0
17:40<andythenorth>or 1 AND 0 I guess for articulated consists :(
17:40<Pikka>andythenorth: but why would you have some vehicles autorefittable and some not? ;)
17:40<andythenorth>I don’t
17:41<andythenorth>why would you?
17:41<Pikka>I wouldn't neither
17:41<andythenorth>sounds like Doing A Wrong
17:41<andythenorth>Being A Silly Sausage
17:41<Pikka>I mean, I would, I'm sure UKRS2 does
17:41<Pikka>and only allows certain cargos too
17:41<Pikka>but that's because UKRS2 is terrible
17:42<andythenorth>actually I think I made a combined pax-mail coach which the pax bit doesn’t autorefit
17:42<andythenorth>just the one
17:42<andythenorth>just a little one
17:42<andythenorth>just a morsel
17:42<Pikka>if autorefittability is a general feature of the set, and all sets from now on, it doesn't really need to be in the buy menu :)
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17:42<andythenorth>this is…a point
17:44<andythenorth>Pikka: you bodged
17:44<Pikka>who bodges the bodger?
17:45<frosch123>so, where are my tipper trucks and train lorries?
17:46<Pikka>good question
17:46<frosch123>V453000: i think ducks should show different graphics depeding on whether vehicles are entering or leaving them
17:47<andythenorth>4 container trucks or 3?
17:47<andythenorth>4 tipper trucks or 3?
17:47<andythenorth>if I do 4, then I get 40 trucks in total
17:47<andythenorth>40 is a multiple of 8
17:47<andythenorth>otherwise I have 36
17:47<andythenorth>not multiple of 8
17:47<frosch123>make a double decker truck with two containers on top of each other
17:48<Pikka>do 864
17:48<andythenorth>frosch123: considering it
17:48<andythenorth>they exist
17:48<Pikka>something about tunnels
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17:49<andythenorth>@calc 864/8
17:49<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 108
17:49<Pikka>those must be fun on a windy day
17:49<andythenorth>Pikka: 864 is obviously silly
17:49<andythenorth>why would you suggest such a thing? o_O
17:49<frosch123>at what height is their barycenter?
17:49<Pikka>because it's a multiple of 8
17:49<andythenorth>Pikka: and what kind of idiot needs multiples of 8 in their set?
17:51<Pikka>this page clearly states "for empty containers"
17:51<Pikka>double-stack container wagons are a big fat phony
17:51<andythenorth>I was hoping you wouldn’t notice :(
17:51<Pikka>they still must be fun on a windy day
17:51<andythenorth>my set is very focussed on realism
17:51<andythenorth>empty is more fun?
17:51<frosch123>V453000: also ducks should balance some cargo on their head or bill
17:52<Pikka>do you have your ducks in a row, frosch123?
17:53<Pikka>monorails and maglevs are so boring... no bogies, no pantographs, no exhausts or other fiddly bits
17:54<frosch123>i like monorails because they are so plain and non-busy
17:54<frosch123>never liked maglev though
17:55<andythenorth>Pikka: do the lego monorail
17:55<andythenorth>has bogies
17:56<Pikka>actually my monorail ended up looking like a MRT or something... it's high-capacity rather than high-speed
17:56<Pikka>I only did one passenger monorail because monorails are boring
17:56<Pikka>maglev will have container wagons and suchlike
17:57<frosch123>some bridge set had a super simple monorail bridge
17:57<frosch123>no pillars just the rail crossing the deep
17:57<frosch123>unrealistic, but cool :)
17:57<alluke>1922 crates of engineering supplies
17:57<alluke>where in earth do i shove those
17:58<frosch123>waiting? or production per month?
17:58<Pikka>shove them down mines, alluke
17:58<andythenorth>playing FIRS?
17:58<alluke>i dont have enough mines nearby
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17:59<frosch123>there is no limit how much you can dump into one, in there?
17:59<alluke>atm theyre going into one clay pit and two dredging sites
17:59<Pikka>andythenorth, the lunar train (now in OpenGFX Mars) was vaguely based on the Futuron monorail...
18:00<andythenorth>is this ‘full FIRS’?
18:00<andythenorth>full FIRS is stupid
18:00<alluke>theyre already producing so much stuff its hard to transport them all
18:00<alluke>simple temperate
18:00<alluke>its a vicious circle
18:01<alluke>i have one train carrying 828 tons of clay trough a city
18:01<alluke>running out of space
18:01<andythenorth>you go from no supplies to too many supplies
18:01<andythenorth>it’s unbalanced
18:02<Pikka>could always use cargodist ;]
18:02<frosch123>hmm, i remember some patch for adjusting them
18:02<frosch123>was that added?
18:02<andythenorth>not yet
18:03<alluke>two million liter trains carrying chemicals outta harbour
18:04<andythenorth>it’s best played with a GS like NoCarGoal or SV
18:04<frosch123> <- only a month old, i thought it was last year
18:06<andythenorth>I should put the passenger crap in
18:06<andythenorth>do we even need passenger RVs?
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18:07<Pikka>yes we do, because we create proper networks in our town to transport passengers to the station, rather than just stationwalking
18:07<frosch123>in a truck set?
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18:08<Pikka>yes, because who's going to make a complimentary bus set?
18:08<andythenorth>so have you got a HOVses sprite I can borrow>
18:08<Pikka>only ancient ones
18:09<andythenorth>that’s ok
18:09<andythenorth>it’s placeholder
18:12<Pikka>I have some old ones of dan's
18:13<andythenorth>that will do
18:13<andythenorth>are they on internets?
18:13<Pikka>they are in a pm
18:14<Pikka>also, you could always go down the zbase path and just add windows to a truck and call it a bus. ;)
18:14<andythenorth>they’ll do nicely
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18:40<andythenorth>4 buseses
18:40<andythenorth>4 tramseses
18:40<Pikka>for a truck set
18:40<andythenorth>it’s 2 too many imho
18:40<andythenorth>but meh
18:41<andythenorth>once you have tram lines, you don’t want to replace them all with buseses?
18:41<Pikka>trams are a bit silly
18:41<Pikka>and AIs make a mess with them
18:44<andythenorth>silly AI
18:45<andythenorth>bye Pikka and other peoples
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19:49<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, using the CF to call on the pixeltool could actually work
19:49<@planetmaker>the URL is fixed for pixeltool and json and curl might work
19:49<@planetmaker>feel free to experiment :)
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>that feels extremely weird
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>also, i probably want to make changes to pixeltool :)
19:55<@planetmaker>giving you a fork of it would not be hard :)
19:55<@planetmaker>or maybe even access to it. Though you then talk about that to Zephyris
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23:49<Endymion_Mallorn>Honest question: how hard is it to make an AI use shared orders and vehicle groups?
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---Logclosed Thu Mar 27 00:00:49 2014