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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-03-27

---Logopened Thu Mar 27 00:00:49 2014
00:16<Pikka>about as hard as it is to get an AI to do anything.
00:27<Endymion_Mallorn>Pikka: So, as a user, I have a right to be a little annoyed at AI programmers who don't use shared orders, then?
00:30<Eddi|zuHause>i never use AIs
00:32<Endymion_Mallorn>Eddi: And I very nearly never play multiplayer.
00:33<Pikka>AIs aren't human, so you shouldn't expect them to play the game like a human
00:33<Pikka>unless that is a stated objective of the AI
00:41<Endymion_Mallorn>Pikka: I understand that, but when playing in single-player, knowing that it is possible that the AI will be bought out... well, simply put, I could be spending in-game years auditing this list. Instead I've paused it.
00:45<Eddi|zuHause>Endymion_Mallorn: me neither
00:45<Eddi|zuHause>Endymion_Mallorn: the thing is, there's almost no advantage for an AI to use shared orders over normal orders
00:46<Endymion_Mallorn>Eddi|zuHause: Until it gets bought out by the player, in which case it very suddenly becomes quite helpful :-)
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01:40<TheBix>guys
01:40<TheBix>i have an issue with trains randomly going to the depot and stopping
01:40<TheBix>on the hardpack
01:42<TheBix>i think it might be related to autorenew or servicing
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01:52<TheBix>yes I just witnessed it happen
01:52<TheBix>i think the train serviced itself then stopped itself
01:52<TheBix>idk why
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04:10<dihedral>good morning
04:24<Xaroth|Work>o/
04:45<@planetmaker>moin
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07:01<NGC3982>Wait
07:01<NGC3982>Where am i
07:01<NGC3982>OFTC != Freequest?
07:03<__ln___>you're on earth
07:03<NGC3982>Oh.
07:03<NGC3982>Right then.
07:04<NGC3982>That would actually work out quite well. NGC3982 is a low-density galaxy, and it would not really interfer with the Milky Way in any greater way.
07:04<NGC3982>As long as the super-massive black holes merges properly.
07:05<@peter1138>Where's Muse?
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07:06<andythenorth>Where is Bird?
07:06<andythenorth>@seen pikka
07:06<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 6 hours, 33 minutes, and 25 seconds ago: <Pikka> unless that is a stated objective of the AI
07:09<@peter1138>@seen bird
07:09<@DorpsGek>peter1138: I have not seen bird.
07:09<@planetmaker>did you already checkout what he sent, andythenorth ?
07:10<andythenorth>not yet
07:10<andythenorth>big grf :o
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07:29<andythenorth>bloody hell these trains are huge :o
07:33<andythenorth>maybe pikka should render sprites for all my sets
07:36<V453000>wher iz it?
07:37<@peter1138>Wut
07:46<@planetmaker>makes me the more curious as what you say... alas for tonight to checkout
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08:01<TheBix>hey guys
08:01<TheBix>anyone on at the moment?
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08:07<V453000>nope
08:10<@peter1138>Wow, new earphones have broken already :p
08:10<TheBix>hey
08:10<TheBix>can you help me with my problem i asked about earlier?
08:11<TheBix>my trains go to the depot and stop themselves randomly
08:12*peter1138 blobs a tiny bit of superglue on.
08:12<TheBix>i think it may be a glitch with the auto service system
08:13<TheBix>im using hardpack btw
08:15<TheBix>eh maybe I should just make a reddit thread asking why
08:16-!-TheMask96 [martijn@gluttony.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:18<@peter1138>Who even uses reddit?
08:18<@peter1138>tt-forums.net is the place for support if it's not forthcoming here.
08:19<TheBix>I don't have an account
08:19<TheBix>idk why but I just cant be bothered making accounts for things i'll only use once
08:20<andythenorth>there’s a lot of ottd stuff on reddit?
08:20<andythenorth>like a whole other community?
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08:23<TheBix>yeah
08:23<TheBix>there is
08:24<TheBix>also
08:24<TheBix>theres a page on the wiki explaining how much tractive effort / horespower you need for x amount of cargo
08:24<andythenorth>oops
08:24*andythenorth doesn’t post “but most newgrfs are rubbish"
08:24*andythenorth is a coward
08:24<andythenorth>and doesn’t want to deal with the fallout
08:24<TheBix>however it doesn't explain how that changes with this setting: https://wiki.openttd.org/Advanced_Settings/Vehicles#Weight_multiplier_for_freight_to_simulate_heavy_trains
08:25<TheBix>I have that set to 10, and I have reasonable spec (for 1947) trains that can't climb hills with 300 units of cargo
08:25<TheBix>IDK whats happening
08:26<TheBix>and by hills I mean 1 single hill tile
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08:32<@planetmaker>TheBix, the most important question you should answer first is: do you have the same problem when playing unmodified openttd, e.g. 1.4.0-rc1
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08:33<TheBix>planetmaker, nope
08:33<TheBix>I doubt others have the problem though because its on default settings
08:33-!-alluke [~oftc-webi@cs78237230.pp.htv.fi] has joined #openttd
08:34<andythenorth>just add more engines
08:34<andythenorth>problem solved
08:34<andythenorth>it’s a game, experiment
08:34<andythenorth>nothing bad happens
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08:35<TheBix>andythenorth, yes of course, but to do that for each of my trains would be really annoying
08:35-!-Zarkhgard^ [~Zarkhgard@151.236.21.167] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:35<andythenorth>turn down the freight weight multiplier?
08:35<TheBix>if only you could set all trains in one group to match a certain type
08:35<andythenorth>if only :)
08:35<andythenorth>we all wish for that
08:35<andythenorth>all / most /s
08:35<TheBix>andythenorth, i like it like this i guess. it's adding a challenge to the game
08:35<TheBix>the only problem is
08:36<TheBix>it will cost me 56 million to afford to replace all my locos with ones that look like they can handle it
08:36<TheBix>im on 2.5 atm
08:36<TheBix>i just want to calculate how much TE/hp i'll need in advance
08:36<TheBix>I can't even afford one of these locos for some reason lol
08:37<alluke>andythenorth, latest heqs push works now, thx
08:37<Pinkbeast>10 is _pretty_ high for a freight multipler. (Also, playing with inflation?)
08:37<andythenorth>alluke: awesome, I’ll tag it
08:38<alluke>just tractor trailers still dont recognize clay as bulk
08:38<@planetmaker>bad bad andythenorth. Just creating void threads and creating anticipation :)
08:38<TheBix>yeah im playing on the hardpack and 10 is the default.
08:38<TheBix>also yeah im using 2cc as well
08:39<andythenorth>planetmaker: needed to link from the docs
08:39<@planetmaker>TheBix, if it's not a bug with official OpenTTD, then you likely want to approach the patch maintainer
08:39<@planetmaker>and tbh, few people will bother to check whether they can reproduce on default openttd with such a vague description
08:39<@planetmaker>you can set orders for trains to go to depot and stop there. But I assume you checked that
08:40<alluke>the freight multiplier is useless switch imo
08:40<@planetmaker>andythenorth, I figured as much :)
08:40<TheBix>currently using SNCF 150B which has 269/2291 te/hp and I want to buy a UP 4000 big boy which has 612/6378
08:40<@peter1138>Playing games is useless imo
08:40<TheBix>SNCF 150B costs 83 thousand atm (used to be cheaper years ago) but the big boy costs 4 million
08:41<TheBix>no idea why theres such a big difference in price
08:41<alluke>yes but its fun
08:41<Pinkbeast>TheBix: So, playing with inflation?
08:41<TheBix>yes of course
08:41<@peter1138>Exactly
08:41<Pinkbeast>TheBix: There's your problem.
08:41<TheBix>isnt inflation on by default?
08:41<TheBix>i've never not played with inflation
08:41*andythenorth ruins the ‘uptime’ on HEQS on bananas
08:41<Pinkbeast>alluke: I always have a freight multiplier of 3 or so, it's absurd to have 0-6-0 goods engines whizzing coal trains up hills at full speed
08:42<TheBix>Pinkbeast, whats wrong with inflation
08:42<Pinkbeast>I don't think inflation is on by default. I always have it off because I tend to start c. 1825 and that's too long for a game with inflation to work at all.
08:42<alluke>its absurd to have too light wagons by default
08:42<Pinkbeast>alluke: Er, the wagon and cargo weights are fairly prototypical.
08:42<andythenorth>hmm
08:43<Pinkbeast>TheBix: Inflation increases costs by more than payments so if a game with inflation goes long enough it will necessarily become unplayable.
08:43<andythenorth>planetmaker: I can’t upload the bundles HEQS to bananas
08:43<andythenorth>nothing useful detected in the pack
08:43<andythenorth>I can’t compile myself
08:43<alluke>my 7-tile clay train weighs 1214 tons fully loaded
08:44<alluke>payload 828 tons
08:44<alluke>multiplier 1
08:44<alluke>each wagon loads 69 tons
08:46<@peter1138>wagons aren't too light
08:46<@peter1138>you just don't use enough of them
08:46<Pinkbeast>alluke: That's a very modern mineral wagon; frex the 40s MoT wagons hold 16 tons.
08:46<alluke>not
08:46<alluke>russian wagons from 70s
08:47<Pinkbeast>So much more modern than those first 0-6-0 engines
08:47<Pinkbeast>peter1138: That tends to exacerbate the oddity of OTTD distance scales
08:49<alluke>these http://vaunut.org/kuva/90594
08:49<@peter1138>Yeah so...
08:49<andythenorth>V453000: couldn’t help mysefl :(
08:49<@planetmaker>andythenorth: did you unpack the zip and upload the tar?
08:50-!-KouDy [~koudy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Quit: leaving]
08:50<andythenorth>no tar in the zip
08:50<@planetmaker>uh
08:50<andythenorth>unless OS X is being too clever
08:50<andythenorth>maybe too clever
08:50<andythenorth>yeah
08:50<andythenorth>stupid OS X
08:51<@peter1138>Hmm, are we gonna have to fix diagonal motion?
08:51<@planetmaker>maybe intermittenly with a cfg-only switch?
08:52<andythenorth>shell unzip ftw
08:53<andythenorth>planetmaker: solved
08:53<@planetmaker>:)
08:53<@planetmaker>andythenorth: start using musa :P
08:53<@planetmaker>but then... it wouldn't have solved that issue for you neither
08:54<@planetmaker>I still wonder whether releases should be uploaded by CF to bananas ;)
08:55<@planetmaker>would probably work quite well
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08:55<@planetmaker>I just fear that crap (ailed stuff or so) would also be uploaded :)
08:55<@planetmaker>*failed
08:55<@planetmaker>how would you see such feature?
08:56<andythenorth>risky
08:56<andythenorth>magic goes wrong
08:57<@peter1138>Hmm, also
08:57<@peter1138>Can we get sub-tile motion a bit finer? :p
09:00<V453000>andythenorth: its great :D
09:00<V453000>it isnt going to be productive in any way, just have fun now
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09:10<andythenorth>V453000: yeah
09:10<andythenorth>that’s this afternoon sorted then :P
09:12<V453000>:P
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09:58<ATS63>http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370745887718
09:58<ATS63>Bought that for when I play OpenTTD... too far?
10:00<Pinkbeast>It might be a bit overkill. :-)
10:02<V453000>still better than people who play openttd naked
10:02<V453000>.
10:06<ATS63>You know I leave my hat on
10:06<ATS63>I ****ing leave my hat on
10:07<V453000>k
10:29*peter1138 lols at V453000's trainwreck thread
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10:29<SpComb>url or it didn't happen
10:29<@peter1138>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=70234
10:30<SpComb>such trolling
10:32<SpComb>has MB released DBSetXL 0.9 yet?
10:33<juzza1>nope
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10:33<SpComb>perfectionist bastard
10:36<V453000>it is amazing peter1138 :D
10:36<ATS63>That is a question I have. I'm not sure why I came to IRC without any. But anyway...
10:36<ATS63>What train sets do people use?
10:37<V453000>nuts for playing, rest for taking screenshots and chilling
10:37<ATS63>I tried ECS which seems cool. Except I needed a new trainset. 2CC is just annoying because it has too many damn trains
10:38<V453000>use nuts with expiring vehicles and you dont get that many trains
10:38<V453000>advanced settings - vehicles never expire: off
10:38<V453000>nuts works with any climate or industry set
10:38<ATS63>Ahh yep, also useful for helicopters on the default airports
10:38<V453000>and btw, FIRS is a lot better than ECS ;)
10:39<ATS63>Which is probably another question. Aviation sets? av8 actually seems good
10:39<V453000>Av8 is probably best by far
10:39<ATS63>FIRS is better? How so?
10:39<V453000>more systematic, controllable, playable
10:39<V453000>less annoying features
10:40<V453000>and having a newGRF in one file, it simply works :)
10:40<ATS63>I'm new to the newgrf thing. Kind of new to the openttd thing too, although I did play deluxe
10:40<V453000>yeeeah
10:40<juzza1>UKRS/NARS are the best "non-realistic realistic" trainsets
10:40<ATS63>True that. Getting ECS to work is slightly irritating
10:41<V453000>well, original industries are excellent too - even opengfx+ industries are amazing because they dont confuse you, just give more cargoes you already know, which is fun
10:41<ATS63>It is more challenging though to have more industries, and longer supply chains
10:42<ATS63>Makes the game more interesting
10:42<V453000>then firs is probably for you
10:42<ATS63>I'll give it a crack then
10:43<V453000>ps, nuts has different wagons for every cargo - makes it super suitable for industry sets
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10:44<ATS63>One final question though. Map sizes & creation? What settings do you use? I think 256x256 was the deluxe default. 2048 didn't even exist. I've done 2048, set industries to normal, sea level to low, and no of towns to low... that seems to produce alright maps with lakes but I should probably use something smaller than 2048
10:45<V453000>256x256 is great fun, I can 100% recommend that
10:45<V453000>512x512 is the maximum one company can reasonably fill
10:45<ATS63>2048 you could probably play for decades
10:45<V453000>512x256 is awesome too
10:45<SpComb>64x64
10:45<@peter1138>I like 256x512 ;p
10:45<ATS63>I'm not sure that 2048 is good for that
10:45<SpComb>I think 512x512 with low towns/industries what was I played
10:46<SpComb>default 256x256 is too dense
10:46<@peter1138>Apparently 4096 is doable now, though I don't know why.
10:46<V453000>^
10:46<@peter1138>Anyone for a 4096x64 game?
10:46<ATS63>Yea it is hard to build decent train stations etc. with any density higher than low
10:46<V453000>medium is generally okay :P
10:46<V453000>even high is fine
10:46<SpComb>so, like, 512x512 with the same total amount of stuff on it as 256x256
10:47<@peter1138>Meh, one day I might fix the sucky land generator.
10:47<SpComb>you can actually fit a junction in between two towns
10:47<ATS63>I'm even new to this idea of cloverleafs and robo stations. But they seem to be needed and work
10:47<V453000>cloverleafs are trash
10:47<V453000>ATS63: www.openttdcoop.org
10:47<V453000>is where logical things are built
10:47<@planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1115707#p1115707 <--- +1 @ andy
10:47<@peter1138>Haha
10:48<@peter1138>I don't like most of the openttdcoop stuff, but yeah, cloverleafs smell.
10:48<SpComb>I would call ottdc mechanical
10:48<@peter1138>I'd call it ugly.
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10:48<V453000>need of throughput = reason
10:49<V453000>idk who made the original industries produce so much :D
10:49<@peter1138>Yeah, I don't give a shit about throughput when I play :D
10:49<V453000>well you need to transport the cargo Somehow
10:49<@peter1138>Nope, it can stay there if it feels like it.
10:49<V453000>:D
10:49<V453000>ok
10:49<V453000>nuff sed
10:49<alluke>much?
10:50<alluke>they produce too little mostly
10:50<SpComb>yeah having 5k pax waiting at each station is perfectly normal and expected
10:50<V453000>2295 is totally little
10:50<ATS63>Cloverleaves smell? Whats better? I was mainly using it to join X intersections
10:50<alluke>cheats?
10:50<SpComb>ATS63: just build ad-hoc as needed using path signals
10:50<V453000>we have 20 farms on our current 512x256 map, and we CANNOT transport all of the livestock (dont even have grain) and produced goods
10:51<Pinkbeast>alluke: Try and avoid X intersections
10:51<alluke>ive never got them produce that much without cheats
10:51<V453000>ATS63: http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Junctionary_-_All_BBHs
10:51<V453000>alluke: easily happens after playing for a few decades
10:51<Pinkbeast>In FIRS where you can just force production up with supplies it's easy to get capped-out production
10:51<V453000>just if you service them properly (train always loading)
10:51<ATS63>The trouble I seem to get is density. Say numerous forests from different directions supplying a single saw mill.
10:52<alluke>just built 20 tile trains if you have problems transporting them
10:52<alluke>build*
10:52<V453000>lol
10:52<ATS63>Building a single rail set for timber, and having other ad-hoc railsets nearby, seems difficult
10:52<alluke>why not
10:52<ATS63>Farms are the other one where there are millions of them supplying a single factory
10:52<alluke>you cant transport anything with little 3 tilers
10:52*Pinkbeast merges similar-speed traffic to the horror of others
10:53<Pinkbeast>Also a lot of farm types want two lots of loading platforms or something
10:54<V453000>I consider 5 tile trains the best, already solid capacity and the curves/platforms/things still are reasonably long
10:54<V453000>openttdcoop mostly uses 3.
10:54<ATS63>I've been using 7 :(
10:55<Pinkbeast>5 looks a bit short to me for goods, I tend to get up to 8 around the 8F/9F and 10 with big electric locomotives
10:55<ATS63>With less wouldn't you need more trains?
10:55<alluke>those are way too little for bigger industries
10:55<alluke>1000-2000 tons payload works the best
10:55<alluke>without trains getting too long
10:55<V453000>if you realize 20 tile train is 1/20th of a 512x512 in length, :/
10:56<alluke>no need for 20 tiles
10:56<V453000>but sure 10 Tile trains can be fun with slow and strong engines which allow short curves
10:56<Pinkbeast>ATS63: More trains, but weaker cheaper locomotives, and small trains fit through junctions much better.
10:56<ATS63>Valid point
10:56<V453000>^ pretty much
10:57<Pinkbeast>Basically with signals/junctions to fit a double-headed train can be immediately and obviously improved in OTTDland (but not reality) by splitting it into two halves
10:57<alluke>1000 tons can be easily achieved under 10 tiles
10:58<V453000>alluke: having wagons with capacity e.g. 60 is plain stupid
10:58<V453000>when the train is empty the engines instantly accelerate
10:58<alluke>its realistic
10:58<V453000>is wtf
10:58<V453000>its retarded.
10:58<alluke>nope
10:59<V453000>well possibly if the wagons were super heavy it would have less influence
10:59<V453000>but the trains would need considerably more power/TE
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10:59<alluke>those megatrains dont usually go over 100 kmh
11:00<V453000>still
11:00<ATS63>Realism seems to be a flawed concept. Speed vs dimensions of tiles != real
11:00<@planetmaker>quite right, ATS63
11:00<V453000>ATS63: realism doesnt lead anywhere
11:00<@planetmaker>length is something which is not well defined in (Open)TTD at all
11:01<@planetmaker>a tile can be anything between 5 metres and 500km
11:01<Pinkbeast>1000 tons is (for example) 33 UKRS1 polybulk hoppers which seems like quite a lot
11:01<V453000>and polybulk hopper is 30t capacity which is standard
11:02<ATS63>You can use realism attempts as a guage. Like "realistic train sets" - where a particular car is a certain length. Compare that to real life dimensions, and how long it takes to travel a tile, and it won't be anything like real. Mostly to do with the flow of time
11:02<ATS63>A day is what, a second?
11:02<@planetmaker>2.2s
11:02<ATS63>Even at 10km/h you wouldn't be able to see the movements of any vehicles, they'd be practically invisible due to the speed they travel
11:03<andythenorth>I fricking hate this ‘there are no BAD things’ idea
11:03<andythenorth>it’s a really weak viewpoint
11:03<andythenorth>nobody who thinks that ever does good work
11:03<V453000>which is why nuts uses speeds between 70 and 600 km/h, because speeds below and above are just boring
11:03<V453000>andythenorth: it is amazing
11:03<@planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1115707#p1115707 <--- +1 @ andy
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11:04<V453000>yeah pm :)
11:04<ATS63>nuts & fics... I'll get them now
11:04<@planetmaker>I think you hit spot-on with that list
11:04<@planetmaker>FIRS (instead of fics)?
11:05<Pinkbeast>I think many of these are bad because poorly implemented because hard to do in OTTD
11:05<@planetmaker>also add HEQS, FISH and av8
11:05<@peter1138>Lies
11:05<V453000>we are creating newGRFs FOR OpenTTD, hence one should consider the limitations and not excuse yourself by them Pinkbeast :P
11:06<@peter1138>Regearing was fun, although using refitting/cargo subtypes was silly
11:06<alluke>regearing is useful imo
11:06<@peter1138>attach restrictions also interesting
11:06<ATS63>ahh, HEQS and FISH do seem like good improvements... as per the description of HEQS, I also like big trucks :/
11:06<andythenorth>FISH is crap
11:06<alluke>you can gain more te if the wagon speed limit doesnt allow full speed
11:07<V453000>you cant even autoreplace to the engines WITH regearing alluke, how is it useful then
11:07<alluke>i never use autoreplace
11:07<V453000>OH :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDd
11:07<V453000>you made my day
11:07<andythenorth>regearing was fun
11:07<andythenorth>the implementation is terrible
11:07<ATS63>The default ships do need improvement though. ECS fishing industries are spastic. I had well over a hundred boats servicing 5 fisheries
11:07<andythenorth>ATS63: don’t use FISH
11:07<ATS63>Off shore oil wells are also a tad spastic
11:07<V453000>ATS63: just tell FIRS to have marine industries near to coast (.
11:08<V453000>(:
11:08<andythenorth>ATS63: if you have a new enough OTTD, get Squid instead
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11:08<ATS63>The limit on how far a boat can travel I find irritating
11:08<@peter1138>eh
11:08<alluke>sucks that ships cant be wider than 1 tile
11:08<@peter1138>use buoys if you hit that limit
11:09<@peter1138>is there even there still?
11:09<andythenorth>yes
11:09<andythenorth>it got re-added iirc
11:09<andythenorth>for good reason
11:09<ATS63>squid isn't in the "check online content" ?
11:09<andythenorth>also ship routing is fucked on rivers etc
11:09<andythenorth>ATS your OTTD is old :)
11:10<andythenorth>or a stable release
11:10<@planetmaker>:D
11:10<andythenorth>download here http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/fish/releases/LATEST/
11:10<ATS63>Yea a stable release
11:10<andythenorth>with rivers, you have to constantly place bouys
11:10<V453000>get testing stable
11:10<V453000>a lot of new features
11:10<andythenorth>some really important ones, like window pinning
11:12<andythenorth>I like arguing with MB, he is a nice arguer
11:12<V453000>yea
11:12<andythenorth>he never says things like ‘be nice'
11:12<andythenorth>or “you have to respect my opinion"
11:13<V453000>cant say I give a shit about any of them, but I appreciate Pikka and you reminding me about missing things in nuts
11:14<V453000>like them ultimate wagonz
11:14<V453000>ultimate >> universal
11:14<V453000>and I still dont get the joke alluke was trying to create with the plastic trucks
11:15<@planetmaker>it eludes me, too
11:16<V453000>I hope I could be enlightened
11:16<ATS63>Plastic trucks? Wouldn't it be similar to wearing that train conductors hat I ordered? Except for me its no joke, super serious business
11:17<ATS63>Train conducting hats and OpenTTD, I blame for being single right now
11:18<alluke>will the nieuwport container ship have containers on board some day?
11:18<V453000>I dont think alluke is in this channel listening
11:18<alluke>i truly aint
11:19<V453000>alluke: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=70234&start=20#p1115687 ?
11:19<ATS63>How could you not get that joke? *face palm*
11:20<alluke>if you were a kid, which one would you rather play with at the sandbox?
11:20<V453000>I dont know or care? The one I would get
11:20<alluke>if you could choose
11:20<V453000>how is that relevant to anything
11:21<alluke>it is
11:21<V453000>but I had a very similar one to the one on the right, in fact
11:21<V453000>just a few decades older
11:21<ATS63>The first one - and its totally relevant. Do I win?
11:23<V453000>I still miss the point alluke
11:24<alluke>the point is that most kids would probably pick the right one since it looks more real = better
11:25<alluke>same in ottd
11:26<V453000>well if the left one functions better, then I would pick that one yeah
11:27<@planetmaker>really, would most kids?
11:27<andythenorth>I actually thought it was a good joke from alluke
11:27<andythenorth>even a stopped clock tells the correct time once a day
11:27<@planetmaker>twice even :P
11:27<V453000>LOL
11:27<V453000>:DDD
11:27<@planetmaker>and it's on average more correct than a clock which lags significantly ;) If you don't average too long
11:28<andythenorth>alluke: the container ship has containers now no?
11:28<andythenorth>or a bug :P
11:28<alluke>havent tested
11:28<andythenorth>well then
11:28<andythenorth>don’t make dumb questions :(
11:28<V453000>:DDDDDDDd
11:28<V453000>alluke sparking with humour today
11:29<alluke>nice
11:29<alluke>it does load containers
11:29<alluke>finally
11:29<alluke>and steams
11:31<V453000>andythenorth: BEST THREAD EVER! :D
11:31<andythenorth>alluke: everything is steamship
11:31<V453000>also andythenorth: where does your research on BROS come from that you can call it worse and how is your reasoning justified?
11:31<andythenorth>fuck you V453000
11:31<V453000>:D
11:31<andythenorth>oops
11:31<V453000>thanks <3
11:32<andythenorth>did I just type that? :o
11:32<V453000>yeah it was great
11:32<V453000>lets do it again someday
11:32<andythenorth>too much trance in these headphones
11:32<alluke>are the containers supposed to steam
11:32<andythenorth>alluke: not so much :)
11:32<andythenorth>but it could be a nice feature for a steampunk set
11:32<alluke>steamin hot cargo?
11:32<andythenorth>why has no-one done a steampunk set?
11:32<andythenorth>Lego and such are full of steampunk fans
11:33<andythenorth>where is bird?
11:33<andythenorth>V453000: NUTS is most steam-punk direction thing, but is more goth
11:33<V453000>idk I has a shitload of steamers
11:33<V453000>some are even for modern agez
11:33<andythenorth>steampunk FIRS
11:33<V453000>NUTS is death-steam
11:33<V453000>NEW ORDER
11:35<andythenorth>steampunk oil rig http://zackf.deviantart.com/art/Steampunk-Oil-Rig-58870204
11:35<andythenorth>I don’t actually like steam punk that much
11:35<andythenorth>but it’s a style :P
11:36<andythenorth>maybe a mad max styled set?
11:36<V453000>:D
11:37<andythenorth>V453000: countdown to thread lock?
11:37<V453000>yeah :)
11:38<V453000>I got the motivation I came for, next chapter next time :D :P
11:40<andythenorth>V453000: other than being complete dicks, are we actually breaking forum rules?
11:41<andythenorth>it’s the most interesting thing on forums for some months tbh
11:41<V453000>I never read forum rules?
11:42<V453000>dicks 10/10 full score, but the others are having the same :P
11:42<V453000>BUT MOM HE STARTED
11:43<__ln___>http://i.imgur.com/VfXGXB7.jpg
11:43<V453000>btw I think I am going to add a few trains to nuts to move starting date to 1900
11:44<V453000>having no cargo classes and just 3-4 trains for the first 20 years in the game sounds like a nice simplification
11:45<@planetmaker>no cargo classes in what way?
11:46<@planetmaker>bad bad bad, __ln___ ;)
11:46<V453000>eh sorry meant engine classes pm
11:46<V453000>now in 1920 there are 5 engine classes
11:46<V453000>in 1900 I could start with just 1
11:46<V453000>1 train, 1 wagon, get more as the game progresses
11:46<V453000>eazy
11:46<@planetmaker>ah, makes more sense
11:47<andythenorth>V453000: 1870 start ftw
11:47<V453000>also the engines and wagons get better so quickly that you almost dont need to expand for the first few decades
11:47<@planetmaker>and why does this image viewer get so frigging slow when coping with just 20k images? :(
11:47<V453000>1870 sounds stupidly low
11:47<Pinkbeast>It's 45 years after I normally start. :-)
11:48<V453000>WHICH sounds stupidly early :D
11:48<Pinkbeast>It's arguably 5 years too early, but the game isn't _just_ trains, right?
11:49<V453000>IS
11:49<V453000>=D
11:49<Pinkbeast>You need trams to get pax out of inner cities, and they're _like_ trains
11:49<V453000>no you dont :P
11:49<@peter1138>Hmm, is there a good ez baseset yet?
11:50<V453000>no peter1138
11:52<alluke>if i was a millionaire i would buy all clubland and dream dance compilations
11:54<andythenorth>they’re not that expensive :P
11:54<V453000>I gtfo work -> home
11:54<V453000>baiz
11:54<V453000>thanks andythenorth, good fun
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13:44<@planetmaker>woooah...
13:45<@planetmaker>where's Mr bird?
13:45<andythenorth>hiding
13:46<@planetmaker>I just have a look at the pineapples
13:47<@planetmaker>that's marvelous.
13:47<@planetmaker>Personally I'd slightly increase the contrast, but that's hard to do, I guess
13:50<V453000>render looks fine, I just hate the side views being so short
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13:53<@planetmaker>could be made 1-tile articulated wagons :P
13:55<@peter1138>V453000, tis the correct size
13:56<@peter1138>newgrf got it wrong
13:56<V453000>having a gigantic gap is not correct.
13:56<@peter1138>the gap is caused by ttd being buggy
13:56<@planetmaker>bug-to-bug compatible implementation :P
13:56<V453000>^:D
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>this "NewGRF's answer to dimension distortion is to make it more distorted" will follow us around forever
14:00<@planetmaker>except if we follow pikka :)
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14:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26431 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2014-03-27 18:45:34 UTC)
14:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<@DorpsGek>english_AU - 2 changes by mrtux
14:45<@DorpsGek>italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
14:45<@DorpsGek>japanese - 10 changes by guppy
14:45<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 1 changes by Stabilitronas
14:45<@DorpsGek>polish - 21 changes by Kilian
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15:06<@peter1138>hmm
15:07<andythenorth>yes
15:09<V453000>cargo_subtype_text is for all refittable cargoes?
15:09<V453000>or is there some limit-thing which would only limit it to pass/mail while all_cargo_classes would be not influenced by it?
15:10<andythenorth>you can limit it
15:10<andythenorth>iirc
15:11<andythenorth>check the cargo type
15:11<V453000>aha
15:11<V453000>hm
15:11<andythenorth>another switch
15:11<andythenorth>I’m 99% certain that works, and the cargo type is available
15:11<V453000>okay =D lets see
15:11<V453000>thanks
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15:20<frosch123>meh, such a pvp day
15:20<@planetmaker>orly? :)
15:22<andythenorth>blue on blue
15:23<andythenorth>I blame andythenorth
15:24<@planetmaker>it's the thorny pineapple, surly
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15:34<andythenorth>frosch123: sorry we were being dicks :(
15:34<frosch123>huh?
15:34<frosch123>do you regret deleting all vehicles? :p
15:34<andythenorth>no
15:34<andythenorth>but maybe I should troll less :P
15:35<andythenorth>4 buses
15:36<andythenorth>how much HP?
15:36<andythenorth>first one is ~1920, 30 pax
15:37<andythenorth>default game has 90hp for that bus
15:37<andythenorth>maybe I just copy default buses
15:37<andythenorth>o_O maybe I just *use* the default buses
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15:42<andythenorth>lo bird
15:42<frosch123>V453000: btw. nars2 does not support playing with breakdowns
15:42<V453000>how?
15:42<@planetmaker>jo Pikka :)
15:42<Pikka>hello children
15:43<frosch123>because reliability makes a random set of vehicles useless
15:43*Pikka is confused
15:43<andythenorth>Pikka: I am also parents
15:43<frosch123>you must be able to choose from similar vehicles as replacement
15:43<frosch123>but that fails if there are no new vehicles, but the old ones change stats
15:43<Pikka>oh
15:43<frosch123>basically reliabilty ruins a complete engine class then, instead of single vehicles
15:44<Pikka>that
15:45<Pikka>what's the actual difference in breadown rate between a vehicle with 80% max reliability and a vehicle with 95%? If vehicles breaking down makes them "ruined", why are you playing with breakdowns on? ;)
15:45<Pikka>andythenorth, both of them?
15:45<frosch123>huh? your reasoning makes no sense
15:46<@planetmaker>Pikka, pineapples are tasty
15:46<frosch123>80% and 95% is a big difference
15:46<frosch123>so max reliability restricts your choices for engines
15:46<frosch123>in a ways that is different every game
15:46<@planetmaker>Pikka, can the contrast be enhanced ever so slightly?
15:46<andythenorth>V453000: see this is the kind of thing that leads to BAD FEATURE http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=475380&nseq=75
15:46<frosch123>so it is a natural way to make players explore other engines, when some do not work
15:47<andythenorth>now I see that refrigerated cars need a generator wagon, so I think of adding one to IH and requiring it for reefer cars
15:47<@planetmaker>I really love the detail of those engines and wagons. That's how 32bpp and zoom should work :)
15:47<V453000>:d
15:47<Pikka>:)
15:47<V453000>Nice stuff indeed Pikka, just the --- views look short :|
15:48<@planetmaker>they do. they are :)
15:48<@planetmaker>but...
15:48<@planetmaker>*shrug* :)
15:48<andythenorth>on the one hand I really don’t like rendered stuff
15:48<andythenorth>and on the other hand I really like rendered stuff
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15:52<Wolf01>hello o/
15:52<Pikka>well argued, andythenorth
15:52<V453000>andythenorth is known to have strong arguments lately
15:53<@planetmaker>what did you use to render them, Pikka ?
15:53<Pikka>3dsm
15:53<@planetmaker>aye
15:53<V453000>mental ray?
15:54<Pikka>extremely mental ray
15:54<@planetmaker>I need 8x and 16x zoom to appreciate the details :P
15:54<Pikka>I miss being able to see the pixels, so we should have 16x zoom but stay with 4x zoom sprites :P
15:55<@planetmaker>yeah :P
15:55<@planetmaker>probably a screen magnifying glass would do, though
16:04<Pikka>so, amongst a few other things
16:04<Pikka>I need a name for the set :/
16:05<@planetmaker>don't you have it already? :)
16:06<Pikka>I need a *better* name for the set. ;)
16:06<@planetmaker>The colourful pineapple: trains
16:07<Pikka>mebe.... mebe...
16:07<frosch123>"bad trains"
16:07<frosch123>?
16:08<frosch123>would be an interesting contrast to "better vehicle names"
16:09<Pikka>BAD FEATURES train set
16:09<frosch123>BFTS
16:09<Pikka>except then I would have to add regearing and make autorefit only work on weekends
16:09<frosch123>andythenorth: BFTS looks similar to BROS, coincidence?
16:09<Pikka>and every train must be at least 50% cabeese
16:10<frosch123>i once suggested exposing the moon phase to newgrf
16:10<frosch123>but other devs rejected it :(
16:10<Pikka>newgrf authors can just add a subroutine to calulate it
16:10<@planetmaker>ah, right, that reminds me, Pikka: the engines and the caboose need some extra text
16:10<@planetmaker>especially the caboose needs an explanation
16:11<Pikka>does it need an explanation?
16:11<@planetmaker>yes
16:11<@planetmaker>I'm no train-maniac. I just play. And it's just a no-purpose-wagon for me
16:11<frosch123>i still do not know what a caboose is
16:11<@planetmaker>it's not self-explanatory
16:11<frosch123>i only know it from railroad tycoon 1
16:12<Pikka>planetmaker, you have explained it perfectly, it needs no text :D
16:12<frosch123>where you could not build trains without wagons, but had to choose "caboose only"
16:12<@planetmaker>:D
16:16<@planetmaker>generally I grew accustomed to sets which give in the purchase view a bit of a hint other than the pure stats as to what purpose an engine could fit well
16:16<@planetmaker>either a text. Or maybe an additional pictogramme included in the sprite or so
16:16<@planetmaker>But it's moaning on a high level, for sure :)
16:16<frosch123>planetmaker: well, maybe the only purpose is the looks, which is displayed fine in the purchase list :p
16:17<Pikka>hehe
16:17<Pikka>certainly they're not as segregated in usage as most "realistic" sets. ;) there aren't enough of them for that, for one thing
16:17<frosch123>i quite sure a high percentage of those who consider themself artists, do not consider ottd a game
16:17<frosch123>resp. they do not know what a game is
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16:45<frosch123>Zuu: you lost your "bahnhof" url
16:45<@planetmaker>:)
16:45<@planetmaker>yeah, sad times :P
16:46<Zuu>frosch123: I'll get it back in a few months
16:47<@planetmaker>moving (back)?
16:47<Zuu>Yeah
16:47<@planetmaker>good or bad? :)
16:48<Zuu>It was planned already from start when moving to my current location that it will be temporary for 9-10 months.
16:48<@planetmaker>ah :)
16:48<Zuu>The bahnhof ISP is a lot better than the current one.
16:49<@planetmaker>definitely when in this channel
16:49<@planetmaker>adds +1 charma bonus
16:50<Zuu>:-)
16:50<Zuu>My current ISP has all sorts of firewall blocks especially 00 AM - 18 PM. But even at the times when it is supposed to be fully open, I get wierd drops on FTP transfer etc.
16:51<Zuu>Though I have heard that the current ISP actually run an a radio link 2-3 km over a lake. :-)
16:55<frosch123>that how one of the student apparentment buildings worked at my old university
16:56<frosch123>it was kind of further away from the university, so they used focussed radio transmission to connect it to the university network
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17:09<@planetmaker>where I studied the geo sciences were in a building on a small hill, linked with laser beam to the computing centre
17:09<@planetmaker>when it was foggy, there was no connectivity up in geosciences building :P
17:09<frosch123>:p
17:09<frosch123>was there package loss due to birds?
17:23<@planetmaker>sometimes there surely was
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17:23<+glx>and bird loss due to laser ?
17:24<@planetmaker>:)
17:25<@planetmaker>I guess they didn't use a welding laser
17:28<Pikka>don't be silly, you can't weld birds
17:28<@planetmaker>unless they come in plate mail
17:29<Pikka>now you're thinking of aeroplanes
17:29<@planetmaker>steel birds? :)
17:30<Pikka>I think the hospitals near here have optical communication arrays pointing at each other... I don't think they've been used for a very long time though.
17:33<frosch123>do their "employees" wear hats?
17:34<frosch123>people building tall towers and pointing stuff at each other sound like they wear pointy hats
17:35<Pikka>more or less
17:35<SpComb>I don't wear pointy hats
17:35<SpComb>although my towers are very short
17:35<frosch123>it's sufficient if you wear one
17:35<SpComb>no budget for big tall ones
17:35<frosch123>multiple would look silly
17:36<SpComb>compensate?
17:36<Pikka>compensate for your short tower with a big hat, yes
17:36<frosch123>you may add additional "z" to your name though
17:36<Pikka>so these trains, I should polish up the grf a bit and banana them?
17:37<@planetmaker>+1
17:37<@planetmaker>and find a name you find acceptable :P
17:37<Pikka>pineapple trains will do
17:37<frosch123>i wonder what the vocabulary around grf releases would have been, if there had been no online content :p
17:38<@planetmaker>:)
17:38<@planetmaker>much more boring, I recon
17:38*Pikka going to the shops first
17:38<Pikka>bbs
17:40<@planetmaker>enjoy shopping :)
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17:45<SpComb>The <center> cannot hold it is too late.
17:45<FLHerne>Has anyone used SALT yet? (as a name)
17:46<SpComb>COWS
17:46<@planetmaker>I shall 'reserve' SOOT' ;)
17:46<@planetmaker>hm... might be a name for pikka's set ^^ SOOT
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17:47<@planetmaker>FLHerne, fwiw: not that *I* know.
17:47<FLHerne>Hmm, I should get my dodgy grf finished before someone steals the name then :P
17:48*planetmaker quickly scribbles some pointless changes to a pointless test grf :P
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18:01<Pikka>NINATTS is not a typical train set.
18:03<V453000>hm :(
18:03<V453000>I dont think I can create the ultimate wagon
18:04<V453000>would mean a lot of wtf with offsets for so many kinds of templates and stuff
18:10<frosch123>what is the ultimate wagon?
18:10<frosch123>a universal wagon that autorefits to everything?
18:13<V453000>no
18:13<V453000>just ignore autorefit entirely
18:13<V453000>ultimate wagon is a wagon which adapts its stats and sprites based on which vehicle it is attached to
18:13<V453000>-> no more attach restrictions
18:13<V453000>just 1 wagon for all
18:14<frosch123>if it addapts stats, then it is terrible anyway
18:14<frosch123>you would have to put a 2 page explanation in the purchase list
18:14<frosch123>how it behaves with what
18:14<V453000>no
18:14<V453000>you put it to each engine as 2 lines
18:14<V453000>easy
18:15<V453000>capacity, loading speed
18:15<V453000>done
18:15<frosch123>it may also break if you combine different engines into one train
18:15<V453000>that would be restricted a bit
18:16<V453000>not like anybody ever does that with nuts
18:17<frosch123>you could put different cats into a train to make it perform somewhat good on different purrs
18:18<V453000>you mean meow?
18:18<frosch123>yeah
18:19<V453000>that is there already
18:19<frosch123>ok, didn't got around playing with it
18:19<frosch123>i still need to play a toyland duck game
18:19<V453000>:d
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18:24<V453000>hm, well if I make two of them, one for cargo and one for express, it might work
18:24<frosch123>wut?
18:24<V453000>the offsets are still ass but I believe I will be able to find some way around it
18:24<frosch123>herzogdexter left the server
18:24<frosch123>he has been ping timeouting for 6 years
18:26<V453000>can I somehow calculate by what offset difference do I move the wagon if it has 1/8 or 3/8 unit in front of it?
18:26<V453000>I mean somehow easily not manually :D
18:26<frosch123>what do you mean with "move" ?
18:26<Wolf01>'night
18:27<V453000>I had 8/8 using sprite X
18:27<frosch123>world coordinates are 2x1 pixel per 1/8
18:27<frosch123>you can easily tell that from the sprite template
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18:27<V453000>now I have 2/8 using sprite X, while the 2/8 is in the middle of articulated vehicle 1+2+2+2+1
18:27<V453000>aha
18:27<V453000>and the -- and || ?
18:27<frosch123>same, just set one offset to 0
18:28<V453000>why 0? :d
18:28<frosch123>vehicle edges are 16 --, 16x8 \ /, 0x8 |
18:28<frosch123>i thought you would know that after drawing 1000 of vehicle sprites :o
18:28<V453000>that means -- moves by 2 per 1/8 and vertical is 1 pixel per 1/8 right
18:29<frosch123>yes
18:29<V453000>idk my offsets are wtf, not 0
18:29<V453000>:D
18:29<V453000>thanks
18:29<frosch123>and for \ and / you just move both
18:29<V453000>y
18:29<frosch123>actually i messed up :p
18:29<frosch123>it's 4 and 2
18:30<V453000>2 and 1 looks correct to me :d
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18:31<frosch123>ah, right because you move the center
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18:32<frosch123>thus it is half
18:32<V453000>._.
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18:36<frosch123>night
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---Logclosed Fri Mar 28 00:00:50 2014