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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-04-01

---Logopened Tue Apr 01 00:00:57 2014
00:44<Flygon>What if you're playing in the Steam era?
00:44<Flygon>Or early Diesel era
00:45<Flygon>And the best plane you got is the Zepplin? :P
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01:05<Supercheese>Zeppelins print cash
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01:05<Supercheese>Very good money makers when I use them
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02:17<Supercheese>April 1... 1.4.0 release day?
02:19<V453000>just opengfx :d
02:19<V453000>so far
02:21<Supercheese>Still plenty of time
02:21<Supercheese>date hasn't even rolled over here in the west coast
02:24<V453000>:d
02:25<V453000>well dutchies arent very west :P
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02:42<Flygon>It's 5:41PM here
02:42<Flygon>April First
02:42<Flygon>But stuff April Fools jokes
02:42<Flygon>I'mma play Pokemon Pinball for the first time in a decade
02:42<Flygon>And. I. SUCK.
02:42<Flygon>God DAMN, this game is evil.
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03:00<Supercheese>The only winning move... is not to play
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03:19<Supercheese>'night
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04:06<@planetmaker>moin
04:10<V453000>hihi
04:10<V453000>hm, model_life has Anything to do with vehicle_life?
04:10<V453000>cause I have model life on 15, vehicle life on 50, and the vehicle from 1920 is still available in 1956
04:11<V453000>or can that be related to cheating the game from 1930->1950? :D
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04:30<@planetmaker>model life: When starting a new game, a random amount between 31 months and 17 years is added to this as well.
04:34<@planetmaker>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Vehicles#Engine_life_cycle
04:37<V453000>17 years? :D
04:38<NGC3982>How arbitrary.
04:39<V453000>hm so retire_early wont influence that random amount eh
04:41<@planetmaker>I don't think so, yes
04:41<@planetmaker>but not entirely sure
04:47<V453000>hmd
04:47<V453000>hmf*
04:47<V453000>I guess no way to go around that randomization eh
04:47<V453000>17 years is a shitload :(
04:48<V453000>it would be super awesome if the spec would allow grf to set precise introduction date, and precise expiration date :|
04:48<V453000>2 years on introduction is meh, but 17 is really confusing lot
04:49<V453000>who to bother :D
04:49<@planetmaker>it's only the lifetime
04:49<@planetmaker>so won't move to earlier years
04:49<@planetmaker>and newer vehicles are better anyway, no? :)
04:49<V453000>sure but shortening purchase lists you know
04:50<Pikka>something something fewer vehicles
04:51<V453000>fewer vehicles could only be achieved by vehicles changing stats based on year
04:51<V453000>which is awful, but yeah
04:53<@planetmaker>I mean... if the purchase list with expiring vehicles is too long. Then you have too many vehicles on that railtype
04:53<@planetmaker>The random factor in vehicle life definitely plays an extremly minor role in this consideration
05:07<maddy_>hi folks
05:10<V453000>it doesnt because if you want to replace one model with another, the expiring would be nice not to delay by decades
05:12<@planetmaker>V453000, you can always replace the model by another. The only thing is that the player can still buy the old model. but the new as well
05:12<@planetmaker>so... where's the problem?
05:12<V453000>that the purchase list is 7 times longer for no reason
05:12<V453000>-> confusing
05:12<@planetmaker>it won't be 7-times longer...
05:13<@planetmaker>you see problems where there aren't any really
05:13<V453000>well if you replace that engine by 7 new trains
05:13<V453000>e.g. it has 7 improvements within the class
05:13<V453000>why have the older 6 available
05:13<@planetmaker>yeah, and if model life is 2 months. And if the moon turned blue ;)
05:14<@planetmaker>that's at best a factor of two
05:14<V453000>?
05:14<@planetmaker>*and*, it's random. Thus not *every*, but only very few will be available for long(er)
05:14<@planetmaker>so really...
05:15<V453000>looks suspiciously consisteny in my current game
05:16<@planetmaker>for randomness a measurment of n=1 is a bad statistics
05:16<@planetmaker>especially when date cheats are in play
05:16<V453000>yes the date cheat had an influence
05:16<V453000>it is a bit random
05:17<Pikka>V453000, why do you introduce updates so frequently that the seventh is introduced while the first is still available?
05:18<V453000>Pikka: because it shouldnt be available, the random adding 17 years made it so
05:18<V453000>well not 7, currently I have 1-4 available
05:18<V453000>it still is strangely chaotic
05:19<Pikka>if the gap between generations was more than 17 years, you'd never have more than one more than you're "supposed" to have available, right?
05:20<Pikka>I realise that sentence is very hard to parse, but with context you know what I mean. :P
05:20<V453000>yes and the player would get bored to death by having engines not frequently enough :)
05:20<@planetmaker>and with updates every 2 years the players won't use the vehicles as it becomes pointless to use the new ones. but rather wait for the next or even 2nd next
05:21<V453000>trains within a class update at no less than 10 years in nuts pm
05:21<V453000>if you consider there are 7 or more classes, yes it is less than 2 years
05:24<V453000>but it isnt very common that players would upgrade cross-classes [more often than every 10 years]
05:27<Taede>isnt it also unlikely people will use all classes within one company?
05:27<Taede>you could add a parameter which disables 'advanced' classes, like meow and chami
05:28<Taede>and wetrail
05:28<V453000>it doesnt maky any sense to reduce amount of choices a player can make
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05:29<V453000>and they arent advanced in any way, anybody can use them easily if they have fun with them
05:29<V453000>but yeah all classes within one company are not very likely
05:33<Taede>but you are reducing the list to lower the threshold for new players right?
05:34<V453000>in reasonable fashion
05:34<V453000>removing all but one engine would solve that too? :P
05:34<Taede>wouldnt it make more sense to reduce the number of available classes (by only allowing basic set, superstrong/strong/medium/fast/intercity/local) rather than reducing the number of engines from one class available at the same time?
05:34<V453000>removing useless vehicles which got replaced by better ones isnt harming anything
05:35<V453000>removing classes (== options) is harmful
05:35<Taede>i can easily distinguish the best vehicle in a class, but which class to choose is less obvious
05:35<V453000>not really, parameters like that could be majorly confusing and mainly limiting everybody on the server
05:35<Taede>not unless i read the wiki, which is not what new players will do
05:35<V453000>yes but if the purchase list has 150 vehicles, ... :)
05:37<V453000>I dont want to add parameters which influence how it works, if someone sees nuts, it should work always the same
05:37<V453000>if I wanted it to function differently, I would make different newGRF
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05:39<V453000>the thing I am trying to achieve is make it more convenient to use at no cost
05:44<maddy_>what if the vehicle list had an option that you could toggle, to show 'recommended' engines or all of them?
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05:46<V453000>but it doesnt have that option ...
05:47<maddy_>though doesn't the setting to let vehicles expire kind of do what you want already?
05:48<maddy_>ok I see the problem with that from previous conversation, had to catch up :)
05:50<maddy_>easy fix: add a new advanced setting to disable the randomness which is added to the expiration date :)
05:51<maddy_>no that sucks, what I really mean is add a flag for newGRF trainsets so they can disable it
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05:53<Flygon>Man
05:54<Flygon>VR would drive you guys nuts
05:54<Flygon>They basically rehashed the B-class so many times from 1950 to 1980 it's... well, interesting
05:54<Flygon>The S-class, the X-class... the... uh...
05:54<Flygon>Okay, perhaps they did release rehashes that were more powerful :|
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06:27<V453000>that is exactly what was suggesting maddy_
06:35<maddy_>yeah, I know, I just agreed that would be a good idea
06:36<V453000>sure sure :)
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06:38<maddy_>I haven't looked at the GRF interface, but I would imagine adding one simple boolean flag would not be a huge task? I hope it is easily extendable with new stuff
06:39<V453000>I guess
06:39<V453000>consulting with frosch123 sounds like a good idea
06:39<V453000>-> me iz waiting for that
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07:33<M3Henry>G'day
07:40<@planetmaker>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5086 @ V453000
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07:46<V453000>hm :D
07:48<V453000>that basically means I can forget about such a function I assume
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: what problem do you have? retire_early other than 0 should circumvent the end-of-life randomization
07:49<V453000>what?
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>it randomizes the length of phase 3, but retire_early is based on phase 2?
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>(or have i misunderstood stuff?)
08:01<V453000>I dont think I understand how this works anymore :D
08:01<V453000> confused
08:02<@planetmaker>V453000, try to set an early retirement
08:03<@planetmaker>which may be negative. But set one
08:04<mg_>hi, if i would like to start a new game with 1.4-RC1, will my save be compatible with final stable 1.4 when it comes out?
08:05<@planetmaker>mg_, any game started with an official OpenTTD version can be loaded with any later official OpenTTD version
08:05<@planetmaker>so: yes. of course.
08:07<mg_>great thanks
08:14<@planetmaker>what does *not* work, is going back to an *earlier* version of OpenTTD. That usually includes going back from a nightly release to a stable or testing release. But that's not what you asked :)
08:16<mg_>yeah, i get that :)
08:18<mg_>btw. i'm here first time and i've been playing original tycoon when i was a kid. so, i would like to thank all of you for doing this :)
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08:34<@planetmaker>:)
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10:00<@peter1138>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=9817
10:02<__ln___>i guess he wants to se he won't buy the record because it's scratched
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10:46<Eddi|zuHause>"it would be cheaper to tear down berlin and rebuild it near an operational airport"
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11:21<andythenorth>no April 1 trolls?
11:21<andythenorth>:(
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11:52<V453000>nutz not troll enuf?
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>how about some music instead? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TywTfAQNf3w
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13:48<frosch123>fs#5961 is funny, wouldn't have thought of that
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>now someone finally decouple road side from signal side. and then make it a company setting. and then show the links depending on whether it's a road link or a train link :p
13:53<frosch123>the former has been done 2 years ago
13:53<frosch123>the latter makes no sense
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13:56<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't played for two years
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>(and i probably would not have noticed anyway)
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>this is a great aprils fools joke: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/cia-misled-on-interrogation-program-senate-report-says/2014/03/31/eb75a82a-b8dd-11e3-96ae-f2c36d2b1245_story.html
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14:00<Wolf01>hi hi
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14:29<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26439 /branches/1.4 (7 files in 4 dirs) (2014-04-01 18:29:34 UTC)
14:29<@DorpsGek>[1.4] -Update documentation
14:33<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26440 /tags/1.4.0 (9 files in 3 dirs) (2014-04-01 18:33:16 UTC)
14:33<@DorpsGek>-Release 1.4.0
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14:34<Xaroth|Work>1.4.0 on 1/4/14 \o/
14:34<frosch123>exactly :p
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14:38<mg_>:-)
14:39<andythenorth>o/
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15:30<LordAro>\o/
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15:41<frosch123>@topic set 1 1.4.0
15:41-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.4.0 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | #openttd.dev for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices
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15:48<LordAro>frosch123, wiki updated ^^
15:49<frosch123>thanks :)
15:50<LordAro>hmm, aren't there "feature" templates, which show which feature was added when?
15:51<LordAro>i wonder if those have been updated..
15:51<frosch123>yes
15:51<frosch123>they are updated on making the branch
15:52<frosch123>we may need a new concept for them at some point though :p
15:52<frosch123>they keep getting wider and wider :p
15:54<LordAro>jusdt remove the old ones :)
15:54<frosch123>well, but they contain the most info :p
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15:54<frosch123>i guess we just need a more compact representation
15:54<frosch123>some type of gauge with labels, instead of individual checkboxes
15:57<LordAro>i've never been good at mediawiki templates, so i'll let you do that :p
15:58<frosch123>pff, it's more html magic than mediawiki :p
15:59<frosch123>i learned html in the first browser war, around 1999; no idea about css and stuff :p
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16:00<frosch123>but apparently javascript is stilll around :p
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16:00<LordAro>indeed
16:00<frosch123>while jscript is not
16:00<LordAro>i'ts more jquery now though, afaik
16:01<LordAro>i don't do a huge amount of webdev stuff, i don't use me as a reliable source ;)
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16:06<Eddi|zuHause>todays episode of "grandpa tells stories from the war"?
16:06<@peter1138>1999? late-comer!
16:08<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: so, whose side were you on during the war?
16:09<@peter1138>netscape navigator, hah, ver 3
16:10<frosch123>i think the hpux machines in the student pool ran 2.1 or something
16:12<__ln___>luxuries
16:14<andythenorth>ver 3 was like a serious upgrade
16:14<andythenorth>it had more colours
16:26<frosch123>blathijs: heffer: we have a new release (surprise) :)
16:27<@planetmaker>best WS I worked on was an Irix with True64
16:27<@planetmaker>they also had something like that netscape. And also there was an internet explorer 2.x or so
16:27<@planetmaker>funny enough
16:28<frosch123>ie 2.x on irix?
16:28<frosch123>i dbout that :p
16:31<@planetmaker>maybe I'm wrong in my memory about version. But I *think* it was the Irix.
16:33<@planetmaker>hm... maybe I was wrong and it was one of the SPARCS or HP-UX and version then 4.
16:33<@planetmaker>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Explorer#Internet_Explorer_f.C3.BCr_Unix
16:34<@planetmaker>But I (and not only I) wondered back then in 1997 about the IE on a machine one definitely wouldn't expect to find it
16:34<frosch123>hm, didn't know those existed either
16:35<frosch123>but, actually, ... from mac to unix it is not that far
16:35<@planetmaker>looking at that wiki page it was vice versa ;)
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16:36<__ln___>frosch123: mac os classic wasn't unix at all.
16:36<+michi_cc>MacOS Not-X to Unix is actually very far.
16:37<frosch123>really?
16:37<frosch123>hmm
16:37<frosch123>but ok, \r does not sound unixy
16:39<frosch123>planetmaker: according to that wiki page 5.2.3 was releassed before 5.1.7
16:39<frosch123>(both for mac)
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16:39<frosch123>oh, and actually both way after 5.5b1
16:39<frosch123>those dates are completely random
16:40<@planetmaker>yes, those versions were in 2005 or so. the unix ones in 1998
16:40<@planetmaker>but I wonder when the first mac IEs appeared
16:47<@planetmaker>mac 8.1 is 1998. So seems about the same time
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17:10<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i think i learned html in 10th grade, 1998-ish, but i didn't really use the internet back then
17:11<frosch123>well, i have no idea when i learned basic html
17:11<andythenorth>I was born knowing *basic* html
17:11<andythenorth>isn’t everyone?
17:11<frosch123>but at some point there was the issue that you had to program all advanced scripting twice
17:12<frosch123>for two browesers :p
17:12<andythenorth>or not bother
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that's why i favoured non-script-y stuff :)
17:12<frosch123>scripts were the fun part :p
17:12<andythenorth>scripts were the non-working part
17:12<andythenorth>I lost a whole day to a simple image gallery once
17:12<rubidium>isn't that still the case?
17:12<andythenorth>hence flash instead
17:13<frosch123>i remember writing a spring-physics engine to let a navigation bar flly in
17:13<frosch123>and expand subitems
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i learned a bit of java applets at start of university
17:13<rubidium>(at least if you still need 'support for at work', i.e. IE6)
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but i have never ever seen a use for it
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>my diploma thesis included a "export this interface as webservice" bit
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know if it actually worked properly
17:15<frosch123>ah, it was actually 98
17:15<frosch123>1997
17:16<frosch123>with some mates i participated in a start-up game organised by some banks
17:16<frosch123>which involved creating a website for your virtual company
17:17<frosch123>which was such a fake-scam that we actually got a cooperation-contact-query by a real company :o
17:17<andythenorth>also bedtime
17:17<andythenorth>bye
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17:20<@planetmaker>lol, awesome, frosch123 :)
17:23<frosch123>hmm, the way-back-machine nows the url and the page title, but does not seem to have the actual data stored
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17:24<Wolf01>'night
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17:26<frosch123>well, i guess it was due to us listing all important companies on our "partner" page :p
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17:27<@planetmaker>:DD
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17:29<frosch123>hmm, the url is even used by a company today
17:29<frosch123>same company name :üp
17:29<frosch123>maybe we could have sold the url, if we kept it
17:44<@planetmaker>:)
17:45<@planetmaker>what is / was it?
17:46<frosch123>http://web.archive.org/web/20020605130509/http://www.netcom-technologies.de/
17:46<frosch123>we used some dodgy contract to get a free url, which required us to run the website for years
17:47<frosch123>until the company offering the free urls went defunct
17:47<frosch123>but since we were hosting it on university servers, there was no issue with keeping it up :p
17:47<@planetmaker>haha :)
17:47<frosch123>your do silly things as pupil :p
17:48<frosch123>anyway, the only thing that is archived apparently is the frameset
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17:49<@planetmaker>yeah, seems so. Not much to see. Sadly
17:49<frosch123>well, likely it would not run properly anyway on current browsers
17:49<frosch123>it runs on ns 4.0 and ie 4.0 :)
17:49<@planetmaker>the html should still work?
17:50<frosch123>yes, the plain pages, but the navigation was all javascript
17:50<frosch123>animated buttons which move around and such
17:52<@planetmaker>hm, I wonder :)
17:56<+glx>animated gifs everywhere ?
17:57<@planetmaker>hm. I just got a vote for a titlegame :D
17:57<+glx>too late I'd say :)
17:57<@planetmaker>looks like ;)
17:58<frosch123>round 1 or 2?
17:58<@planetmaker>Round2. He voted for the one we shipped today.
17:58<+glx>lucky
17:58<frosch123>fast reaction time :)
18:00<@planetmaker>I think I'll reply that we released it already in anticipation of his decisive vote :P
18:00<+glx>:)
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18:16<frosch123>night
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18:18<@planetmaker>seems to have been the typical case of "first read, then send, then read the rest of the page". He said he noticed at the moment he sent the e-mail :D
18:18<@planetmaker>that deadline was 2 weeks ago
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18:32<mg_>:)
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19:09<supermop>very tempted to go out for a magic but i reckon i should save the money and make coffee at home
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19:22<Eddi|zuHause>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSpFRcTeUQ4
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19:51<supermop>over-extracted
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21:21<supermop>is there no undo in pixel tool?
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22:57<supermop>would a tram look stupid if it was longer than 1/2 a tile (non-articulated)
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23:01<Eddi|zuHause>who would get the idea of vehicles longer than 1/2 tile!
23:03<supermop>you are a bad influence, eddi
23:03<supermop>although
23:04<Eddi|zuHause>it was actually not even my idea, i just improved it
23:04<supermop>what is to stop me from making it a three part vehicle, with the front and rear bogies as front and rear sections, and the body as the center?
23:05<supermop>the tramways are so narrow compared to rails though, maybe it would look like it was clipping houses in turns
23:06<Eddi|zuHause>well you could copy the CETS code 1:1 in that aspect
23:06<Eddi|zuHause>the main reason i introduced the additional angles is curves
23:07<Eddi|zuHause>and the slicing is supposed to help with glitches
23:07<supermop>trams spend little time in curves thoug
23:07<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't mean you can leave it unsolved
23:08<supermop>trying t throw together a quick tram set of 5 or so trams using pixel tool for graphics
23:08<supermop>it might be easier to just use more 'standard' lengths
23:08<Eddi|zuHause>probably
23:09<supermop>but the longest vehicle is 15m, earlier vehicles are 14m or less and later are articulated, so i want to emphasize the length of this one somehow
23:10<Eddi|zuHause>then make the others shorter
23:10<supermop>8/8 for this and 7/8 for the others might look ok
23:11<Eddi|zuHause>in CETS, 16m is a 8lu vehicle, and 14m 7lu, although the scale is probably slightly smaller than usual
23:11<supermop>hmm
23:12<supermop>i was thinking 3m = 2/8 but i guess that would leave the trams comically large compared to trains
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23:12<Eddi|zuHause>well the "normal" vehicles have heavy length distortion usually
23:12<supermop>yeh
23:13<Eddi|zuHause>i'd refer to GermanRV as comparison, but that has some nasty scale issues in itself
23:13<Eddi|zuHause>in general, it seems to be a 24m scale
23:14<supermop>also i cant think too much about RV, there are too many extant problems... i just have one more week left of not working 50hrs a week and thought i'd throw together a small set to play with the trams outside my window
23:14<Eddi|zuHause>CETS uses 32m scale
23:14<supermop>32/tile?
23:14<Eddi|zuHause>yes
23:14<Eddi|zuHause>24m would be your 3m per 2lu
23:20<supermop>ah hmm ok there is another tram that is 16m
---Logclosed Wed Apr 02 00:00:58 2014