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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-04-08

---Logopened Tue Apr 08 00:00:10 2014
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03:13<dihedral>good morning
03:23<@planetmaker>moin
03:30<@planetmaker>outch... https://www.openssl.org/news/secadv_20140407.txt
03:55<Pulec>quite a hole
03:57<@peter1138>http://filippo.io/Heartbleed/
04:02<@peter1138>all
04:02<@peter1138>keys used with vulnerable processes will need to be replaced
04:02<@peter1138>:S
04:02<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds tedious
04:05<Xaroth|Work>you might want to note, peter1138, that that site logs all requests made.
04:06<@peter1138>Of course.
04:12<Xaroth|Work>http://s3.jspenguin.org/ssltest.py is much safer, credits to TB for pasting me that
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05:28<__ln__>http://privatekeycheck.com/
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05:39<@peter1138>:-)
05:40<dihedral>__ln__, good job you do not have to upload the certificate too :-D
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07:08<Flygon>You know you've played too much OpenTTD when you keep planning stations in your head
07:08<Flygon>When not doing anything related to it
07:09<Flygon>eg. dishes, driving car, working on work...
07:15<maddy_>yeah that happens to me
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08:04<dihedral>Flygon, you should try using that when applying for a job with your national rail company
08:05<Flygon>Australia National were disbanded over 2 decades ago
08:05<Flygon>And I'm still waiting on my future with my job with PTV (long story. LONG)
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09:29<dihedral>PTV = PayTV? :-D
09:35<@peter1138>PornTV. He's a pornstar.
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10:12<Flygon>dihedral: Victoria's Public Transport Operator
10:12<Flygon>Public Transport Victoria
10:13<LordAro>nah, you're totally a pornstar
10:14<Flygon>Stop looking at my FA
10:14<Flygon>Perv
10:14<Flygon>:|
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11:18<Zsub>Hello, I'm running a 1.4.0 dedicated server on ubuntu trusty, with min_active_players set to 1. The server pauses as the last client disconnects, but the (paused) server process uses more CPU than I'd expect from an almost idle process, is that a known 'issue'?
11:19<Zsub>Issue in quotes because it is about 2% CPU on an i7, but the server does prevent the CPU to go to advanced power saving states.
11:20<@planetmaker>2% on a single core for idle when handling in- and outgoing traffic is not extremely much, no?
11:20<@planetmaker>the server likely is queried by clients for availability etc
11:21<@planetmaker>or did you turn off advertising?
11:21<Zsub>The server is not advertised, indeed
11:22<Zsub>But it causes the amount of time the CPU spends in C6 to drop from ~90 to ~30
11:22<Zsub>percent, both
11:23<Zsub>Wait typo, ~90% to ~50%
11:25<Xaroth|Work>that's most likely due to some parts of the engine still running while waiting for clients to join
11:25<Zsub>My question is also not because I can't spare the capacity, but more related to power usage of the machine as a whole :)
11:25<@peter1138>It only performs a minimal sleep.
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11:26<@peter1138>There's a CSleep(1) in src/video/dedicated_v.cpp
11:27<@peter1138>Could be changed to sleep longer when paused.
11:27<Xaroth|Work>didn't you have a patch for that?
11:30<@peter1138>No.
11:31<Zsub>I'm currently downloading and installing the prerequisites to compile so I can test that suggestion
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11:33<@planetmaker>mind, if you want a server, you need svn (and not hg or git)
11:35<Zsub>will the source archive also do? or do I need to svn co?
11:35<Xaroth|Work>i'd go with svn co
11:35<Xaroth|Work>mainly since the build scripts checks stuff
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11:47<Zsub>Alright, have built trunk, now I'm just waiting for my system to settle to get a sortof baseline :)
12:09<Zsub>I increased the CSleep peter1138 mentioned to 100 if the current pause mode is PM_PAUSED_ACTIVE_CLIENTS and the number of events per second for openttd drops from 560 to 20
12:10<Zsub>time spent in C6 increased a bit to ~60%
12:10<@peter1138>Hmm
12:11<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/tmp.diff <-- maybe you're satisfied with that, Zsub ?
12:11<@peter1138>10 is less than 100, so... no :)
12:11<Zsub>btw, I assume that is in milliseconds
12:11<@planetmaker>:) well, adjust then. I just picked a random number larger than 1 ;)
12:11<@peter1138>Yes, it is.
12:12<Zsub>OK, because I couldn't find where that function came from :) googleing 'CSleep' was surprisingly unhelpful :P
12:13<@peter1138>It's an OpenTTD thing :)
12:13<@planetmaker>src/os/unix/unix.cpp:void CSleep(int milliseconds)
12:13<Zsub>planetmaker: yeah that's pretty much exactly what I did, except with 100
12:14<@planetmaker>you probably want to exclude the other pause reasons from slow-down
12:14<Zsub>Yeah, indeed
12:14<@planetmaker>maybe one can include PM_PAUSED_GAME_SCRIPT - but not sure. It usually occurs when people are connected :)
12:15<@planetmaker>hm. my diff is wrong
12:15<@planetmaker>_pause_mode is a bitset
12:16<Zsub>I only used PM_PAUSED_ACTIVE_CLIENTS because it is the most specific to this scenario, I thought
12:16<@planetmaker>updated diff
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12:18<Zsub>I'll apply it and recompile, just a sec :)
12:18<@planetmaker>I didn't update the sleep time. So yeah, you want 100 or so probably
12:18<Zsub>I'm just going to see what difference it makes
12:20<Zsub>compiler suggests parens around the bitwise &
12:20<@planetmaker>hm :) then add them
12:21<Zsub>yeah sure, just letting you know ;)
12:21<@planetmaker>mine actually does, too. I didn't re-compile :D
12:22<@planetmaker>so does that sleep time need a config option?
12:22<@peter1138>No.
12:23<@peter1138>But... does it really not fix the C6 time, or was the condition wrong when it wasn't using & ?
12:23<@peter1138>Hmm, I guess it did drop the events.
12:26<Zsub>with planetmaker's patch (so CSleep(10)) it's now down to about 450 events/s and 43% C6
12:26<@planetmaker>with 100?
12:26<@peter1138>100 or more is probably more reasonable.
12:26<@peter1138>As long as any background network stuff can keep up.
12:27<Zsub>no, with 10 ms sleep, but my sickbeard just started searching, i forgot to stop it :)
12:29<Zsub>Does the server autosave on real time intervals, maybe?
12:30<@planetmaker>it's in game time
12:30<Zsub>Yeah thought so
12:31<@planetmaker>monthly is most frequent
12:31<@planetmaker>which is like every minute
12:31<Zsub>Because it is all over the place now, and I don't see any activity on the console
12:31<@planetmaker>someone downloading stuff?
12:32<@planetmaker>that creates a temporary sav and then uploads it to the client connecting
12:32<Zsub>unlikely, I stopped most services and the console jst states " *** Game paused (number of players)"
12:33<@planetmaker>doesn't mean players can't connect :P
12:33<Zsub>but then it should give a message stating it does, afaik
12:33<Zsub>it usually does at least :P
12:33<Zsub>*they do
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12:33<@planetmaker>maybe, I usually fork it in background
12:34<Zsub>heh, yeah I kept it in the foreground to keep an eye on it
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12:40<Zsub>planetmaker: there can be multiple reasons to pause at the same time?
12:40<@planetmaker>yes
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12:41<@planetmaker>at least as far as I remember
12:41<@planetmaker>evenink and oddink!
12:41<@Alberth>hi hi
12:41<Zsub>I mean, it's possible with a bit enum of course :) Just wondered if it ever would happen :P
12:42<@planetmaker>Zsub, yeah can. For instance you paused it and then people leave
12:42<@planetmaker>or script paused it and people leave. or so
12:42<Zsub>oh yeah
12:43-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d01f6eb.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
12:43<@planetmaker>quak
12:43<LordAro>kauq
12:43<@Alberth>o/
12:43<Zsub>I started openttd with -D -d 1 and console is silent as the grave after pausing the game, meanwhile, events/s all over the place going from 100 to 500
12:43<Zsub>color me rather perplexed
12:44<@planetmaker>try ./openttd -D -d net=6
12:44<@planetmaker>to get more network chatter :)
12:44<@planetmaker>but no clue if that increases your load
12:45<Zsub>it would, but then I can hopefully see where the fluctuations come from
12:46<frosch123>hola
12:46<frosch123>oi, an albert!
12:47<@Alberth>I seem to have missed a release :)
12:47<@planetmaker>:)
12:47<@planetmaker>how surprising :P
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12:48<frosch123>yeah, no way he moved just to avoid being asked for a release post
12:48<Zsub>Well, -d 6 is informative
12:49<Zsub>it's the sprite cache that keeps getting compacted
12:49<Zsub>every few seconds or so
12:49<@planetmaker>uh, in pause state?
12:49<@Alberth>hmm, it proves difficult to fool a frosch :p
12:49<Zsub>planetmaker: *** Game paused (number of players)
12:49<@planetmaker>hm, but ok, why not...
12:49<Zsub>dbg: [sprite] Compacting sprite cache, inuse=94752
12:49<Zsub>dbg: [sprite] Compacting sprite cache, inuse=94752
12:49<Zsub>dbg: [sprite] Compacting sprite cache, inuse=94752
12:49<Zsub>dbg: [sprite] Compacting sprite cache, inuse=94752
12:49<Zsub>dbg: [sprite] Compacting sprite cache, inuse=94752
12:49<Zsub>oops sorry
12:50<Zsub>but yeah, in pause state :P
12:50<frosch123>you missed the "net="
12:50<@planetmaker>Zsub, did you ./configure --enable-dedicated?
12:50<frosch123>you enabled all loggers
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12:51<Zsub>planetmaker: ... MRW: http://i.imgur.com/Kc03Ona.gif
12:51<Zsub>frosch123: yeah I know, I enabled them on purpose :)
12:52<@planetmaker>(our default binaries don't have that either, not sure it changes the sprite cache thing. Just an idea :) )
12:52<Zsub>oh ok, I was afraid I'd done something incredibly unintelligent. I undoubtedly have, but it was not this thing at least :P
12:53<Zsub>Anyway, dinner's ready so bbl
12:53<@planetmaker>no, not at all. But on a (dedicated) server you don't need x-windows :)
12:53<@planetmaker>and leaving out the video driver stuff might chop away some things, too
12:53<Zsub>nope, still mucks around with the sprite cache
12:54<@planetmaker>but what was the time with 100msec CSleep?
12:54<@planetmaker>worse than with 10?
12:54<Zsub>idk, I've kept it at 10 for now
12:54<Zsub>it takes some time to settle after compiling and starting
12:55<@planetmaker>well, enjoy your dinner first :)
12:55<Zsub>thanks very much for your help! bbl :)
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13:29<Phreeze>nevening
13:34<@peter1138>So... did that fix his issue or not? :p
13:35<@planetmaker>maybe :)
13:35-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
13:35<@planetmaker>I was actually waiting for his feedback
13:36<@peter1138>Quite!
13:36<Wolf01>hi hi
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13:44<@Alberth>hi hi sir Wolf
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26447 trunk/src/lang/basque.txt (2014-04-08 17:45:08 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>basque - 56 changes by laxkax
13:47<Phreeze>i was always wondering, if those languages missing maaaaany strings shouldn't just be "put on ice" ....
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13:48<Phreeze>hm i see urdu etc. have disappeared from the mainpage
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>Phreeze: but a language being available might prompt people to sign up for improving it
13:49<Phreeze>that was my thoughts too, but then i realized, that people probably think of translating, when they see that there are already mannnnnyyy ingame
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>Phreeze: maybe with a message "this language lacks many strings, sign up for translator"
13:50<Phreeze>with geo-ip, you can create a string in php ^^
13:50<Phreeze>"hello Mr. X from the persian region, we need your support to translate openttd!"
13:50<rubidium>hi, you are in Quebec... so please help with the French translation...
13:51<Phreeze>lol
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>err... :p
13:51<rubidium>although... based on the fact that your OS is Chinese, you might not be quite so good in "Old" French
13:51-!-Pikka [~Octomom@d110-32-11-122.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd
13:51<Phreeze>Hello german bretzel ! if you are from bavaria, pls leave now. if not, feel free to translate to your dialect
13:52<Phreeze>scnr
13:52<Pikka>zounds
13:52<Phreeze>u2
13:53<Pikka>si
13:54<@peter1138>Pikka, running sounds
13:54<Pikka>does it?
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14:05*frosch123 ponders a temperate-to-fairyland-conversion set
14:05<@planetmaker>:)
14:07<frosch123>maybe i can photoshop some teasers to start a forum topic
14:07<@Alberth>just hussle the graphics of the climates? :)
14:10<Phreeze>fairyland xD
14:10<Phreeze>remembers me of Hook / Peter Pan
14:12<frosch123>does it also make you say "crivens!" ?
14:13<Pikka>or zounds
14:16<Zsub>it seems you even need a graphics set if you `./configure --enable-dedicated` which seems a bit weird to me, what does the server use the graphics set for? :)
14:17<@Alberth>it also contains stats etc for vehicles, ie they are not just graphics
14:17<Zsub>Ah I didn't know :)
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14:17<Zsub>Thanks
14:19<@Alberth>and if you add newgrfs, they tend to have loads of callback code for all kinds of behaviour in the game
14:21<Phreeze>gfx need to be coded, and in the code, the stats for those vehicles etc. are given. but anyway, i could image that those base stats and callback could be included in another separate piece of code
14:21<Zsub>planetmaker: I used your latest diff (http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/tmp.diff) with `./configure --enable-dedicated` and the server seems to be pretty well behaved right now
14:22<@planetmaker>what sleep improvement does it give?
14:22<@planetmaker>with 10? with 100?
14:22<Zsub>100
14:22<Zsub>and it is pretty stable at 20 events/s
14:25<Zsub>It looks like there's about 1min 15s between compacting the sprite cache now
14:25<Zsub>and the CPU spends 80-82% in C6 now, up from barely 50%
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14:30<Zsub>With 10ms sleep there's 22 seconds between sprite cache compacting, and about 135 events/s, with the cpu in C6 about 75% of the time
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14:41<Zsub>oh wow... I ran powertop with the display updating every second, which caused the CPU to not go into a low-power state, which means openttd had more CPU power and generated more events... Everything is connected and influencing everything else, yay
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14:42<Phreeze>some drawing expert here ?
14:44<Zsub>But anyway. For me increasing the sleep works like a charm, planetmaker
14:46<@planetmaker>I see, sweet
14:47<@planetmaker>Phreeze, generally meta questions suck
14:47<@planetmaker>to answer your question 'yes'. But not me
14:48<Phreeze>i need to draw some..err.. "stromabnehmer"...
14:48<@planetmaker>pantographs
14:49<Phreeze>yep
14:49<@planetmaker>Zsub, as you probably still have it running
14:49<@planetmaker>how does it work, if you activate 'build during pause'? :D
14:49<Zsub>hehe
14:49<@planetmaker>how sluggish does the client feel? :D
14:50<Zsub>I'm trying to get my client to log in as the revision is not _exactly_ equal :P
14:50<@planetmaker>you can't login then
14:50<@planetmaker>you need the same revision
14:50<@planetmaker>compile without --enable-dedicated and use the same binary then
14:51<Zsub>Heh, would if I could
14:51<@planetmaker>is your server reachable?
14:52<Zsub>in principle, yes
14:52<Zsub>except I'm now compiling the same revision as the latest precompiled os x client :)
14:53<Zsub>then it should work I think
14:53<@planetmaker>that won't help you
14:53<@planetmaker>modified != unmodified
14:53<Zsub>hmm, bother. I thought I was being smart, not smart enough :P
14:56<@peter1138>Why do we have the sprite cache for dedicated servers again?
14:56<@peter1138>(Wait, is it dedicated?)
14:56<Zsub>ok, there's a server running built from the latest trunk, r26447, with CSleep(100)
14:56<@peter1138>Hmm, must be.
14:56<Zsub>peter1138: yeah I'm running a dedicated server, if that's what you mean
14:57-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd
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14:58<andythenorth>o/
14:59<@planetmaker>\o
15:01<andythenorth>is today a fun heartbleed day? o_O
15:03<@planetmaker>quite
15:03<@planetmaker>you had fun, too? :D
15:04<@planetmaker>nvm your server, Zsub. Simulating localls
15:04<@planetmaker>locally
15:05<@planetmaker>frosch123, doesn't seem to be an issue with build-in-pause
15:06-!-oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd
15:08<@planetmaker>no real delay with a local dedicated server with that patch, paused due to client count and enabled every action during pause
15:08<frosch123>why are you only checking for two pause modes btw?
15:08<frosch123>what makes them different?
15:08<@planetmaker>my assumption is that those two are the ones which usually result in little or no player activity
15:09<@planetmaker>pause-on-join surely makes no sense to then let the server sleep
15:09<@planetmaker>saveload pause should not cause it either
15:09<frosch123>well, then you should check for !pause-on-join
15:09<@planetmaker>game script and error - not sure. They usually will be not unattended
15:09<frosch123>they are ored, so you still delay on join if it is also paused for other reason
15:10<frosch123>also definitely add a comment
15:10<frosch123>if i had to add a new pause reason, i would have no idea whether to add it there or not :)
15:10<frosch123>the selection of pause modes looks quite arbitrary to me
15:11<@planetmaker>saveload is not a good reason to idle
15:11<@planetmaker>join neither
15:11<@planetmaker>as there we actually want to get stuff done
15:11<@planetmaker>the others can be argued
15:11<frosch123>why?
15:11<frosch123>saveload is done in another thread
15:11<frosch123>not sure about join actually
15:12<Zsub>planetmaker: I was just about to report that it seems to work fine :P
15:12<frosch123>but, well just add a coment explaining the intention
15:12<frosch123>i just think that it is non-obvious
15:12<@planetmaker>the intention is to only idle / allow sleep when we expect that the pause mode can persist longer than transiently
15:12<frosch123>even though the corner cases likely do ot matter much
15:13<frosch123>how about "_pause_mode != 0 && !(_pause_mode & (PM_PAUSE_JOIN | PM_PAUSE_SAVE | ...))" ?
15:14<frosch123>i..e list the cases where it should not sleep
15:14<@planetmaker>fine with me
15:14<@planetmaker>then let's only list those two
15:14<frosch123>currently you also delay while joining when paused for lack for clients at the same time
15:14<frosch123>which sounds weird to me
15:14<@planetmaker>with explanation that they're supposedly transient
15:15<Zsub>planetmaker: maybe it is an even better idea to only increase the sleep if no clients are connected?
15:15<@planetmaker>that actually is probably the best idea
15:15<Zsub>That would entirely sidestep the issue of build actions during pause being/becoming slow/sluggish
15:15<@planetmaker>_pause_mode != 0 && client_count != 0
15:15<frosch123>yeah, that makes more sense
15:15<@planetmaker>ok
15:15<@peter1138>Oh... you can build while paused...
15:15<frosch123>though i have no idea whether client_count is 0 or 1
15:16<@planetmaker>I fully agree
15:16<@planetmaker>yeah, I need to figure that out :)
15:16<frosch123>peter1138: team up with eddi
15:16<Zsub>The same could go for the cache compacting, probably
15:16-!-Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:16<@peter1138>?
15:16<@planetmaker>Zsub, nah, that's different
15:16<@planetmaker>could be looked at. But definitely another patch
15:16<Zsub>ah ok :)
15:17<frosch123>peter1138: eddi also learns about features from years ago
15:17<frosch123>though argueably, usually he suggests them
15:18<@peter1138>Ah, I usually patch them, and then... that's it.
15:18<andythenorth>Pikka lo bob
15:18<Pikka>lobob
15:18<andythenorth>what is doing?
15:19<frosch123>how is your mom doing?
15:19<Pikka>remembering I left stuff out of fridge
15:19<Pikka>brb
15:19<andythenorth>hope not ice cream
15:23<Pikka>not
15:23<Pikka>bongiorno
15:24<andythenorth>is doing what?
15:25<@planetmaker>actually, checking for client count then is not needed.
15:25<@planetmaker>as min_active_clients is a pause reason, thus already covered by _pause_mode != 0
15:26<@planetmaker>so only _pause_mode != 0 is the check we need
15:26<Pikka>is doing not much at the moment... eating sammich and thinking about what do.
15:26<Pikka>et tu? many horses?
15:26<andythenorth>is thinking buy costs
15:26<andythenorth>and run costs
15:26<@planetmaker>hm... and the exceptions :)
15:26<frosch123>planetmaker: depend on whether client_count counts connecting clients
15:26<andythenorth>I liked V’s idea, just add 1 to cost for each model
15:26<andythenorth>in order
15:27<Zsub>planetmaker: min_active_clients = 2
15:27<Pikka>tres linear
15:27<Zsub>and allow everything during pause
15:27<@planetmaker>frosch123, network.cpp checks min_active_clients == 0
15:27<andythenorth>Pikka: wondering if costs even matter :P
15:27<andythenorth>IH is plenty much fun in multiplayer GS
15:27<andythenorth>and costs are bollocksed
15:27<Pikka>I don't know whether they matter
15:28<@planetmaker>which actually is done the in the function which sets the pause mode :)
15:28<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26448 /trunk/src (linkgraph/flowmapper.cpp station_cmd.cpp) (2014-04-08 19:28:14 UTC)
15:28<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5970]: Avoid division by 0 when scaling flow values.
15:28<andythenorth>I think they matter a bit
15:28<Pikka>less so in GS
15:28<andythenorth>anyone figured out how original game set costs?
15:28<andythenorth>was it a formula, or just guesses?
15:29<frosch123>planetmaker: i checks NetworkCountActiveClients
15:29<frosch123>*it
15:29<@planetmaker>min_active_clients = 0 means that server never pauses
15:29<Pikka>perhaps we should work it out, andythenorth
15:29<andythenorth>praps
15:29<andythenorth>or invent own
15:29<Pikka>gettatable of stats, look for pattern
15:29<@planetmaker>frosch123, exactly
15:29<andythenorth>Pikka: I’m not so stats :P
15:29<andythenorth>sounds like a job for Real Programmers
15:30<@planetmaker>CheckPauseHelper(NetworkCountActiveClients() < _settings_client.network.min_active_clients, PM_PAUSED_ACTIVE_CLIENTS);
15:30<@planetmaker>line 425
15:30<frosch123>what are you trying to tell me?
15:31<andythenorth>Pikka: do you have Pineapples equivalent of Floss 47?
15:31<@planetmaker>that an explicit check for client number is not needed in our case
15:31<frosch123>why?
15:31<Pikka>"equivalent" how?
15:31<frosch123>the last idea was "pause when no clients connected"
15:31<frosch123>now you want to change it agani to "pause when not sufficient clients connected" or something?
15:32<@planetmaker>meh, yeah
15:32<andythenorth>Pikka: kind of ‘in the middle’ wrt costs, power etc
15:32<Zsub>frosch123: wasn't the last idea to increase the sleep while no clients connected?
15:32<@planetmaker>yup
15:32<Zsub>And leave the whole paused state alone?
15:32<Pikka>I don't think I have enough vehicles for there to be a middle
15:32<@planetmaker>no. pause state must be queried to be active
15:33<@planetmaker>but no clients must be connected, too :)
15:33<Pikka>the pineapple trains are generally underpowered compared to TTD/"reality". makes them more interesting imo if they don't all hit top speed halfway out of the station...
15:33*andythenorth looks
15:33<andythenorth>oic
15:34<andythenorth>you really don’t have any duffs or SD40s or anything
15:34<andythenorth>how nice
15:34<Zsub>But then, as far as I can see/understand, you need to check both the pause state as well as the number of connected clients, right?
15:35<@peter1138>WD40?
15:35<@planetmaker>yes
15:35<frosch123>i guess checking pause state is needed for the case "also run with no clients connected"
15:35<andythenorth>Pikka: AMF Lincoln looks like universal train to me :P
15:35<Zsub>Because you do not want to increase the sleep if someone wants their server to remain running while no clients are connected
15:35<andythenorth>no matter how hard you try, there’s always a universal train :P
15:35<@peter1138>frosch123, you mean the default? :D
15:35<Pikka>andythenorth, that's where costs come in. :)
15:36<frosch123>peter1138: that's just to scare people away for hosting even more empty servers
15:37<Pikka>universality also isn't as much of a problem for me because I have fewer locos. every loco gets a couple of decades during which it is the "best".
15:39-!-lugo [lugo@apple.bnc4free.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:39<Pikka>Lincoln is nearly twice as powerful (and twice as expensive) as Chief. When the Lincoln comes out, you can use it to replace doubleheaders or use it for new routes, but if you have a network built around Chiefs, you're not going to want/need to replace them 1:1. so it's either keep using Chiefs for a while, or redesign your network somewhat.
15:39<Pikka>more interesting than a 10% improvement in every stat every 10 years. ;)
15:40<andythenorth>+1
15:40<Zsub>If I understand correctly, there are a few possible combinations:
15:40<Zsub>1. Game not paused and clients connected, so CSleep(1)
15:40<Zsub>2. Game paused and clients connected, CSleep(1)
15:40<Zsub>3. Game paused, no clients connected, CSleep(100)
15:40<Zsub>4. Game not paused, no clients connected, CSleep(1)
15:41<Zsub>I think that's them all?
15:41<frosch123>your nick is way too close to "Zuu" btw
15:41<@planetmaker>yeah :P
15:41<Zsub>Zuu?
15:41<@planetmaker>he's not here right now :)
15:42<Zsub>Ah ok :) It's usually pretty unique, fortunately :P
15:42-!-Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
15:42<@planetmaker>Zuu is also pretty unique :P
15:42<@planetmaker>but quite common around here :)
15:43<Zsub>hehe
15:43*planetmaker points to contributor list
15:43<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/tmp.diff <-- patch got bigger
15:44<andythenorth>Pikka: I was going to just peg the cost of my engines to yours :P
15:44<andythenorth>I don’t think that quite works
15:44<Pikka>:P
15:45<andythenorth>would have saved me the work :P
15:45<Pikka>well I gave you the formula that I use for costs... but since your locos are more powerful, they end up with sillycosts
15:45<andythenorth>that yes
15:45-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6B88B.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
15:45<andythenorth>I can make my own formula using hp and speed and crap
15:45<@Alberth>we do have NUTS, but SILLY is still free
15:45<andythenorth>but I might just use buy menu position multiplied by x
15:46<andythenorth>SILLY Alberth
15:46<andythenorth>you don’t have a newgrf yet, you should start
15:46<@planetmaker>I thought in the Netherlands they have CRACK? :P
15:46<@planetmaker>or WEED
15:46<@Alberth>I think I have 2, no idea where they are though :p
15:46<andythenorth>hmm
15:47<@Alberth>planetmaker: not to mention SEX
15:47<andythenorth>Pikka: is the Floss 47 grossly too cheap?
15:47<@planetmaker>oh noes!
15:47<frosch123>planetmaker: no idea whether to count clients already in STATUS_AUTHORIZED..STATUS_PRE_ACTIVE state
15:47<Pikka>all the TTD locos are, isn't it?
15:47<rubidium>frosch123: you probably should... downloading the map and such
15:47<andythenorth>£10k on low costs
15:48<Pikka>who plays on low costs?
15:48<andythenorth>people who lost the last GS
15:48<andythenorth>on a sensible PAX route, its going to make £80k / year
15:48<andythenorth>too cheap
15:49<@planetmaker>frosch123, any client connection and attempts should matter probably
15:49<frosch123>so even more code :p
15:49<@planetmaker>it's not like we really need to stretch the sleep to its extreme either
15:50<@planetmaker>:D
15:50-!-Jerik [~Jerik@c-68-80-55-194.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
15:50<Zsub>planetmaker: diff looks good to me, applies cleanly (duh :P ) and compiler doesn't complain :)
15:51<@planetmaker>so... checking for NetworkHasJoiningClients() as well?
15:51<@planetmaker>Or should we just ignore that corner case?
15:51<frosch123>write a new function?
15:51<rubidium>clientpool.isempty()?
15:51<frosch123>or that
15:52<Zsub>isn't the worst case for joining clients that they have to wait 100ms for one cycle of the main loop?
15:52<@planetmaker>packet sending is slow in worst case
15:52<@Alberth>+static inline uint NetworkCountActiveClients() {} <-- shouldn't it return some integer?
15:53<@planetmaker>it should
15:53<rubidium>Zsub: for savegame downloading that 100ms is going to be pain
15:54<Zsub>rubidium: oh, ah a client is considered 'joining' while downloading the save then, not already joined
15:54<Zsub>?
15:54<rubidium>yup
15:54<Zsub>because I can see how that is going to get _really_ old _really_ fast
15:54<rubidium>it's not seen as active at least
15:55<rubidium>does it bother you (a lot) when it doesn't go into deep sleep when one client is joined, but it is paused?
15:55<Zsub>me? no, I don't expect that to happen a lot
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15:57<@planetmaker>rubidium, where is that client pool defined?
15:57<Zsub>rubidium: you mean that a client joins, plays some and then clicks pause? Because I didn't think that was possible
15:57-!-lugo [lugo@apple.bnc4free.com] has joined #openttd
15:57<@planetmaker>ah... I get somewhere
15:58<Phreeze>wtf...my openttd.exe has 0 kb...
15:58<Phreeze>.from my nightly folder, which is never modified in any way
15:59<rubidium>planetmaker: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3214/ <- something like that?
15:59<frosch123>Phreeze: quite good compression isn't it?
16:00<frosch123>"FOR_ALL_CLIENT_SOCKETS(cs) return true;" <- that line scares me :p
16:02<Phreeze>bezt kompräschn evaaaa :-/
16:02<Zsub>I'm logging off in a minute, but not before thanking you guys again: thanks for your work!
16:04<frosch123>yeah, we had great fun standing around pm in a circle, and point out things :)
16:05-!-Zsub [~Joris@5249B9F1.cm-4-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Zsub]
16:05<@planetmaker>I can live with that :)
16:07<@peter1138>so the 1-liner was crap? :p
16:10<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/tmp.diff <-- another update
16:10<@planetmaker>using rubi's suggestion on checking for client activity
16:10<frosch123>at least fix his coding style :p
16:11<frosch123>+uint NetworkCountActiveClients() <- that hunk is no longer needed
16:11<frosch123>+bool HasClients() { <- i meant he missing \n
16:11<@planetmaker>oh, missed that, thx
16:13<@planetmaker>so we now have spend enough time on it to want this patch? :D
16:13<@planetmaker>(updated with the last fixes)
16:13<frosch123>yeah, submit it to fs
16:14<@planetmaker>:D
16:14<frosch123>you should also post it in .dev, for review
16:14<@planetmaker>in the suggestions forum
16:14<frosch123>anyway, i am running out on issues to point out :p
16:15<@planetmaker>:)
16:19<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r26449 /trunk/src (3 files in 2 dirs) (2014-04-08 20:19:41 UTC)
16:19<@DorpsGek>-Add: Allow more sound sleep for dedicated servers when there's nothing to do and nobody paying attention
16:19-!-oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
16:20<@planetmaker>thank you all for the lively and fruitful discussion :)
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16:31<andythenorth>action 0 property too large :(
16:31<andythenorth>what a knobber
16:32*andythenorth has to visit spec
16:33-!-kruger is now known as NGC3982
16:34<NGC3982>Evening.
16:35<andythenorth>bah
16:35<andythenorth>what I need is an algorithm to spread the cost factor across the vehicles
16:35<andythenorth>based on HP and speed
16:35<andythenorth>capped at 255
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16:36<frosch123>btw i consider writing a blog on why construction costs are a bad feature :)
16:36<@planetmaker>don't feel held back on that :)
16:36<andythenorth>BAD FEATURES
16:37<andythenorth>frosch123: I await your blog with interest :)
16:37<NGC3982>I had yet to be greeted with "bah" whilst connecting to IRC.
16:37<NGC3982>:D.
16:37<@planetmaker>:)
16:37<andythenorth>I am now officially bored of trying to construct these costs in code
16:37<frosch123>NGC3982: i rather wondered about the missing ü in your name
16:37*planetmaker makes an official note
16:37<andythenorth>and doing it manually puts a brake on expanding the code
16:37<andythenorth>planetmaker: thanks
16:37<andythenorth>appreciated
16:37<andythenorth>for the record
16:38<@peter1138>Remove all costs, they just prevent fun.
16:38<NGC3982>frosch123: NGÜ3982?
16:38<frosch123>no, krüger
16:38<@peter1138>freddie
16:38<NGC3982>Oh.
16:38<@peter1138>or was it freddy?
16:38<NGC3982>Yes, indeed.
16:38<NGC3982>It's after Ivar.
16:39<andythenorth>removing costs is….possible :P
16:39<@peter1138>DO IT
16:39<@peter1138>Also remove boats planes and road vehicles
16:39<NGC3982>:(
16:39<andythenorth>peter1138: moar boats
16:39<andythenorth>less planetmaker
16:39<andythenorth>oops
16:39<andythenorth>less planes
16:39<@peter1138>Articulated vehicles
16:40<@planetmaker>:(
16:40<frosch123>lol
16:40-!-ccfreak2k [~ccfreak2k@haqua.4chan.fm] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
16:40<@peter1138>Tractive effort just confuses people, take it out.
16:40-!-planetmaker is now known as planetmake
16:40<@peter1138>Also 32bpp cos it forces people to render.
16:40<Pikka>yep
16:40*planetmake feels less
16:40<frosch123>peter1138: most important, all settings that are different to original ttd shall be basic settings
16:40<Pikka>it's a terrible feature because it forces people to render, and the renders look bad
16:41-!-NGC3982 is now known as NGC398
16:41<andythenorth>tractive effort :P
16:41<NGC398>Feel free to bask in your OCD anger.
16:41<@peter1138>remove everything that isn't in ttd basically
16:41-!-Guest5893 [~glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:41<frosch123>such as "savegame date format"
16:41<andythenorth>are we trolling each other, or serious?
16:41-!-ccfreak2k [~ccfreak2k@2605:6400:2:fed5:22:0:6979:842d] has joined #openttd
16:41*andythenorth could +1 this stuff
16:41<andythenorth>:P
16:41<frosch123>andythenorth: what's that?
16:41<andythenorth>eh?
16:41<andythenorth>what?
16:42-!-NGC398 is now known as NGC3982
16:42<frosch123>about the "serious" ?
16:42<@peter1138>path signals make people dumb cos they don't bother learning to make simple priority LL_RRLLXXAAZZ feeder systems
16:42*andythenorth plays Doom
16:42<@peter1138>so take them out
16:42-!-planetmake is now known as planetmaker
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16:47-!-Natio [~Natio@x1-6-e0-46-9a-98-35-7a.cpe.webspeed.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
16:51*peter1138 ponders committing all of his patches in one go.
16:57<@planetmaker>32bpp CC? :)
16:57<Supercheese>RGB Company Colors? Yes please
16:58<frosch123>what, ttd did not have that!
16:58<Pikka>company colours looks like thomas, it's a bad feature
16:59<Supercheese>was there ever any full TtTE grf?
16:59<Pikka>nope
16:59<Supercheese>oh wait they've changed the name to T&F haven't they
16:59<Supercheese>bah
16:59<Supercheese>"friends"
16:59<Pikka>thomas and fiends
16:59<Supercheese>indeed
17:00<@planetmaker>lol
17:00<Supercheese>they have any maglev "friends" yet?
17:00<Supercheese>isn't that the logical progression?
17:00<Supercheese>show's been going for decades
17:00<andythenorth>hmm
17:00<Supercheese>should see vacuum tubes in a couple
17:00<andythenorth>I don’t know why I bother with Military Base
17:00<andythenorth>bored
17:01<Supercheese>although then they'd be unable to talk
17:01<andythenorth>the thing with Doom is
17:01<andythenorth>you get the shotgun on level 1
17:01<andythenorth>and the chaingun and chainsaw on level 2
17:02<Supercheese>and then the chainsawshotgun?
17:02<andythenorth>the chaingun is probably the most effective for most of the game
17:02<andythenorth>designers of grfs should take note
17:02<andythenorth>and stop providing shit vehicles for early part of game :)
17:02-!-zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:02<Supercheese>Chainsawsuit
17:02<Supercheese>Chainsaw trian
17:02<@planetmaker>so... thomas the chainsaw engine? :P
17:02<Supercheese>train*
17:02<Pikka>yebbut
17:03<Supercheese>and yes
17:03<Supercheese>Trainsaw, if you will
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17:03<Pikka>"early part of the game" is ill-defined. half the people who play TTD start in 2100 and build nothing but maglevs.
17:03<andythenorth>oh yeah that :P
17:03*andythenorth is biased
17:04<andythenorth>can I be bothered to automate costs?
17:04<andythenorth>or will I just type them in ?
17:04<Supercheese>cost = rand(255);
17:04<@peter1138>planetmaker, Supercheese, didn't think anyone wanted that
17:04<@peter1138>plus it wouldn't work with Pikka's stuff
17:05<Pikka>well
17:05<Pikka>stations, base set, that kind of ilk, it will work with those :)
17:05<@peter1138>which is basically the only 32bpp that matters
17:06<Supercheese>the only 32bpp that matters is alpha channel so I can fake my underground subways. I am not biased in any way.
17:06<Pikka>peter1138, does it work with 8bpp grfs
17:06<Pikka>if you're using the 32bpp blitter?
17:06<@peter1138>Yup.
17:07<Pikka>smashing
17:07<Supercheese>pumpkins
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17:09<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r26450 /trunk/src (11 files in 4 dirs) (2014-04-08 21:09:06 UTC)
17:09<@DorpsGek>-Feature: Hierarchical vehicle subgroups.
17:09<@peter1138>Whoops
17:09<@peter1138>Slipped
17:10<andythenorth>ha ha
17:10<andythenorth>now the foamers will be happy
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17:10<@peter1138>The what?
17:11<andythenorth>the ones who are making an accurate scale model of some (usually british) trains
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17:12<@peter1138>Hmm.
17:13<Pikka>what's a hierarchical vehicle subgroup when it's at home?
17:14*andythenorth compiles
17:14<frosch123>what do the hierarchical groups do?
17:14<frosch123>autoreplace?
17:14<frosch123>hmm, what do groups generally do?
17:14<frosch123>i forgot what their purpose is :p
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17:15<frosch123>is autoreplace their only feature?
17:15<frosch123>hmm, send to depot maybe as well
17:15<andythenorth>and organisng
17:15<andythenorth>it’s very important to organise your trains, for some people
17:15<andythenorth>so you can create realistic diagrams
17:15<frosch123>ah, organizing for organizational purposes, i guess?
17:16<@peter1138>Oh wait, I remember the problem
17:16<@peter1138>Someone went and added some microoptimised SSE code to the blitter. Bugger.
17:16<andythenorth>frosch123: it’s like filing your email into cascading folders
17:16<@peter1138>heirarchical groups, is like groups
17:16<@peter1138>except you can subgroup things
17:17<frosch123>oh, i figured emails are best filtered by sender and receiver
17:17*andythenorth tries it
17:17<frosch123>not by subject
17:17<andythenorth>works fine peter1138
17:17<andythenorth>you will have made some people very very happy
17:17<@peter1138>and then do mass start/stop/replace/etc on sets of groups at once
17:17<andythenorth>there was a long and bad discussion about it a few years ago here
17:17<frosch123>receiver "all employees" go into spam folder
17:17<@peter1138>Oddly enough, I wrote that years ago too.
17:17<@peter1138>Okay so this code is missing a code path but still works. Huh.
17:18<frosch123>receiver "all employees" and sender "doorman" or "admin" go into "annoying spam"
17:18<andythenorth>frosch123: all my mails have a rule now
17:18<andythenorth>‘mark read, autoreply'
17:18<andythenorth>let’s see
17:18<andythenorth>@calc 2*5*52
17:18<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 520
17:19<Pikka><andythenorth> it’s very important to organise your trains, for some people http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5938?project=1&pagenum=2 <- my favourite bug report
17:19<andythenorth>I got back 21 days a year
17:19<Pikka>"I can't use refit because, imo, it puts the cost on the wrong line in the finance window"
17:19<andythenorth>Pikka: I do wonder
17:19<@peter1138>How does 32bppSSE2 work? It doesn't appear to have any rendering code
17:19<andythenorth>there is too much fun in the game
17:19<andythenorth>we should remove more fun
17:20-!-Ttech [~ttech@00014919.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Este é o fim.]
17:20<andythenorth>this reality simulator is too much like a game
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17:20<@peter1138>Oh god this SSE is impenetrable :(
17:21<@peter1138>in?
17:21<Pikka>im
17:21<andythenorth>ip
17:21<@peter1138>#define ALPHA_CONTROL_MASK _mm_setr_epi8( 6, 7, 6, 7, 6, 7, -1, -1, 14, 15, 14, 15, 14, 15, -1, -1)
17:21<@peter1138>what the
17:21<frosch123>it's not hex :)
17:22<andythenorth>more sleeping?
17:22<@peter1138>No but
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17:23<Pikka>andythenorth: apart from anything else, making refits cost is a bad feature :D
17:24<andythenorth>BAD
17:24<Pikka>treble
17:25<Pikka>a treble feeture
17:25<@planetmaker>peter1138 should also add more doxygen descriptions
17:25<andythenorth>also bedtime
17:25<Pikka>g
17:25<Pikka>'
17:25<andythenorth>can someone fix Iron Horse, thanks
17:25<Pikka>night
17:25<andythenorth>bye
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17:25<@peter1138>planetmaker, too busy getting pissed at sse
17:25<@planetmaker>+bool GroupIsInGroup(GroupID search, GroupID group)
17:25<@planetmaker>it adds proven speed-up
17:25<@peter1138>397 #if (SSE_VERSION == 2)
17:25<@peter1138>398 void Blitter_32bppSSE2::Draw(Blitter::BlitterParams *bp, BlitterMode mode, ZoomLevel zoom)
17:25<@peter1138>399 #elif (SSE_VERSION == 3)
17:25<@peter1138>400 void Blitter_32bppSSSE3::Draw(Blitter::BlitterParams *bp, BlitterMode mode, ZoomLevel zoom)
17:25<@peter1138>401 #elif (SSE_VERSION == 4)
17:25<@peter1138>402 void Blitter_32bppSSE4::Draw(Blitter::BlitterParams *bp, BlitterMode mode, ZoomLevel zoom)
17:26<@peter1138>403 #endif
17:26<@peter1138>planetmaker, yes, but it's impossible to alter
17:26<@peter1138>cool cool
17:26<@peter1138>so cool
17:26<@planetmaker>quite difficult to do, yeah
17:26<@peter1138>And I need to do so
17:26<@peter1138>Or I just commit stubs that crash openttd.
17:26<@peter1138>Tempting.
17:26<@planetmaker>what do you need to alter it for?
17:26<@peter1138>crash remap code
17:27<@peter1138>27-Dec-2011 19:23
17:27<@peter1138>probably shouldn't've sat on it
17:28<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/crashremap6.diff
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17:29<frosch123>same for newspaper?
17:30<@planetmaker>what problem does it solve?
17:30<frosch123>i guess it makes 32bpp vehicles grey when they crash
17:30<frosch123>instead of keeping them coloured
17:31<@peter1138>Yup.
17:31<@peter1138>Dunno about newspaper.
17:31<@planetmaker>uses the same remap iirc
17:31<@peter1138>No, newspaper works.
17:31<@planetmaker>if not coloured
17:31<@peter1138>Newspaper draws normally and then changes the colour after.
17:31<@peter1138>IIRC.
17:31<frosch123>ah, right
17:32*NGC3982 strypsexar davidstrauss
17:32<NGC3982>Oh.
17:32<NGC3982>Snap.
17:32<@peter1138>So that patch works for the non-SSE blitters.
17:32<@peter1138>Absolutely no idea how to translate it.
17:32<NGC3982>Sorry, wrong channel. Please don't translate that.
17:32<NGC3982>jag fick precis lära mig frukterna av tmux
17:32<NGC3982>What on earth
17:32<@peter1138>tmux yes.
17:32<NGC3982>My tmux is broken
17:32<NGC3982>Sorry.
17:33<@peter1138>32bpp colour remaps doesn't need blitter changes though, iirc, so that's okay :p
17:33<@peter1138>Oh yeah, the crash remap also makes show path reservation work again.
17:40*planetmaker -> sleep. Bye for now
17:44<@peter1138>http://www.tt-forums.net/search.php?keywords=SSE
17:45<frosch123>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=69421
17:45<@peter1138>Yeah Google found it.
17:45<frosch123>always use google
17:46<MJP>peter1138, I may try to help you with your crashremap6.diff (maybe I'll have some time tomorrow)
17:46<@peter1138>Ok cool
17:46<@peter1138>Well, by "help" you'll need to do it all :p
17:46<@peter1138>Cos I have no clue :D
17:47<MJP>no problem :)
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17:52<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r26451 trunk/src/group_cmd.cpp (2014-04-08 21:52:53 UTC)
17:52<@DorpsGek>-Change: Document GroupIsInGroup() function.
17:54<Wolf01>'night
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18:02<frosch123>night
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20:30<supermop>i love playing small maps
20:30<supermop>lots of fun on 64x128 right now with 2ccnml nightly
20:30<supermop>no overhead emus though
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22:41<@peter1138>Hmm, could just commit what I have and let MJP sort out the rest ;)
22:56<Supercheese>doooo eeeet
23:24-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
23:31<@peter1138>Heh, I just rebased code from February. 2013.
23:32<@peter1138>No issues... wonder if it compiles though.
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---Logclosed Wed Apr 09 00:00:12 2014