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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-04-09

---Logopened Wed Apr 09 00:00:12 2014
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01:56<maddy_>g'morning everyone
02:14<Supercheese>good evening
02:16<supermop>good afternoon
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03:19*NGC3982 slappar.
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04:51*NGC3982 is home alone and the IRC is empty. :(
04:52<@peter1138>No it's not.
04:52<V453000>it is.
04:53<@planetmaker>enjoying the sound of silence ;)
04:54*Taede watches the tumbleweed flee
04:54<@peter1138>If the next signal was red then the current one would be yellow and the train would have to slow down. feel that this would be more realistic.
04:54<@peter1138>There is a patch for implementing yellow color in signals in the link
04:54<@peter1138>A patch from nearly 10 years ago, woo.
04:55<@planetmaker>there's also one in michi's collections
04:55<@peter1138>I might have one, I dunno...
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05:31<andythenorth>Pikka: moin
05:32<NGC3982>frågan är hur man får tag i ett pata-kabinett
05:32<NGC3982>God damnit. I'm removing tmux.
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05:59<Pikka>andythenorth: goodnight
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05:59<Pikka>him too
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06:08<Zsub>hey planetmaker, your tmp.diff is still online and it looks like you improved it to check for any client connections
06:09<Zsub>am I reading that correctly, is the implied question :P
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06:12<@planetmaker>yes, you do
06:12<@planetmaker>but you can simply checkout trunk
06:14<Zsub>awesome :)
06:15<Zsub>I have to say this is the fastest I've ever seen an OSS project implement a suggestion
06:16<@planetmaker>sometimes wonder do happen :P
06:16<Zsub>Haha, yeah, so it seems :P
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06:17<Zsub>Also, your code is extremely readable, at least the parts I have seen
06:18<@planetmaker>Otherwise it becomes virtually unmaintainable
06:18<@peter1138>That's not what I found :D
06:18<Xaroth|Work>wait, what, openttd code is readable?
06:18<@planetmaker>hardware programming never is :P
06:18<Xaroth|Work>I had more gone for 'close-to-klingon'
06:18<Zsub>oh dear what did I say...
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06:21<Zsub>Still, I work with/maintain a bunch of bash scripts, most of them at least five years old and all of them copy-pasted from each other
06:23<Zsub>Not to mention global variables all over the place, bash and version specific glitches and workarounds, so I sortof feel your pain ;)
06:23<@planetmaker>you should have a look at stdafx.h ;)
06:25<@planetmaker>or fontconfig.cpp
06:25<@planetmaker>is a bit version and os-specific, too ;)
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06:28<Zsub>I... I need an adult...
06:30<Zsub>But yeah that's pretty bad as far as endless ifdef's go, wow
06:34<@planetmaker>but luckily that file makes sure that we can neglect version and os differences in most other places
06:36<maddy_>so a little bit of pain for a lot of gain?
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06:37<maddy_>hi super
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06:42<supermop>whats up?
06:48<@planetmaker>'yes' was the lowest line. But sky is up ;)
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07:11<andythenorth>@seen pikka
07:11<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 1 hour, 11 minutes, and 20 seconds ago: <Pikka> him too
07:11<andythenorth>he gone
07:15<NGC3982>I love that layout.
07:15<andythenorth>V453000: it’s a lovely drawing
07:15<andythenorth>V453000: it misses something
07:16<andythenorth>hang on
07:16<@peter1138>toys... sweets... beer. wtf?
07:17<V453000>can transform to machinery-food
07:17<andythenorth>V453000: too much Zool
07:17<andythenorth>not enough Doom
07:17<NGC3982>Zool! <3
07:17<andythenorth>V453000: add something
07:17<andythenorth>like ‘souls'
07:17<andythenorth>or ‘blood'
07:17<andythenorth>or ‘demons'
07:18<andythenorth>or ‘toxic waste'
07:18<V453000>well alternate economies are an option :D
07:18<andythenorth>but not that fucking green stuff everyone goes on about, whatever it is
07:18<V453000>the key is the system
07:20<andythenorth>I am spectacularly pleased with my buy cost calculation, and there’s no pikka to show off to :(
07:22<andythenorth>I invented something that seemed reasonable
07:22<andythenorth>which would make my ‘universal engine’ cost around £50k-ish on medium costs
07:22<andythenorth>and it has come out at precisely £50k
07:22<andythenorth>without any faking
07:25<V453000>50 sounds high as fuck
07:25<V453000>mathematically speaking
07:26<andythenorth>it will make you £150k / year easy on a good pax route
07:26<andythenorth>you and pikka have quite different views on costs :D
07:26<V453000>idk, something aroudnd 15-20k gives fun and quick playing
07:26<andythenorth>I am taking the middle of the road :P
07:26<andythenorth>where you get run over most
07:27<andythenorth>starter engines cost about £21k-£25k
07:27<andythenorth>in 1870
07:27<V453000>well that is reasonable
07:28*andythenorth has idea
07:28<V453000>== bad news?
07:30<andythenorth>BAD FEATURE
07:30<andythenorth>make engines before 1900 a bit cheaper, because otherwise gameplay is really boring then
07:30<andythenorth>everything is slow :P
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07:33<V453000>me has engines from year 0
07:33<V453000>make them free then? :D
07:34<andythenorth>I think so
07:34<andythenorth>'easy start’
07:37<V453000>but the engines are equally fast as in 1900? :P
07:37<andythenorth>this is problem yes
07:38<andythenorth>but not enough to care
07:38<andythenorth>bit of random crap is fun
07:39<V453000>-> beer
07:40<@peter1138>Sounds boring.
07:41<andythenorth>or free engines?
07:44<V453000>I am afraid peter1138 doesnt understand the importance of beer cargo
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08:05<andythenorth>all these trains have a 40 year lifespan
08:05<andythenorth>should I care
08:06<@peter1138>Nope. It's not like you'll finish it.
08:07<andythenorth>does anybody finish it?
08:07<andythenorth>I could 1.0 it
08:07<andythenorth>that’s ‘finished’? :P
08:11<andythenorth>V453000: model 1 55pmh > replacement model 2, 45mph
08:12<andythenorth>newer model is slower.
08:12<V453000>then it isnt a replacement?
08:12<andythenorth>due to realism, and evil
08:12<V453000>if it has better power/te/capacity-something, then it can get on the same level and then it is another choice what you can get
08:13<andythenorth>it has much more power
08:13<andythenorth>and TE
08:13<V453000>well then it is probably a different purpose vehicle
08:13<V453000>not replacemtn
08:13<andythenorth>irl it’s for taking slow coal trains up hills cheaply
08:13<andythenorth>but this is not rl
08:14<V453000>it is like having fast and strong train class
08:14<V453000>both can coexist and each can have its use
08:14<andythenorth>I just leave it be
08:14<V453000>BUT I think it is nicer to do it vice versa still
08:14<V453000>first introduce slower classes, get faster classes later
08:15<andythenorth>I am +1 to that
08:15<andythenorth>this is the only exception
08:16<V453000>just dont take them as replacement, just competition between each other
08:16<V453000>-> creating which is good so the player has some choice
08:18<andythenorth>choices :P
08:19<V453000>like beer
08:24<andythenorth>is maglev a thing?
08:24<V453000>is wetrail a thing?
08:24<V453000>or monorail?
08:25<andythenorth>they are thing
08:26<V453000>adding maglev is great, but kind of requires universal track type
08:26<andythenorth>I was thinking of splitting
08:26<V453000>otherwise autoreplace goes to shit
08:26<andythenorth>freight and pax maglev types
08:26<andythenorth>I am -1 to this crap for now
08:26<andythenorth>enough to do, enough to do
08:27<andythenorth>actually just run costs and offsets to fix
08:27<andythenorth>and cargo sprite crap, but that can wait
08:27<@peter1138>autoplace goes to shit?
08:27<@peter1138>because it won't let you replace incompatible types|?
08:28<V453000>how do you turn your network from rail to maglev then?
08:28<andythenorth>it’s part of the gameplay? o_O
08:29<V453000>it is just slave labour, and while might be part of the original train set, is convenient to get rid of by newgrf
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08:29<V453000>if you already implement maglev, having it autoreplaceable to is nice to say the least
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08:47<V453000>peter1138: works? :D
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09:19<Xaroth|Work>V453000: love the hands
09:19<V453000>just illustrator hands :d
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09:52<andythenorth>how much should running costs be?
09:53<Xaroth|Work>99% of the money earnt
09:54<maddy_>V453000: YETI looks interesting
09:55<V453000>andythenorth: running_cost_factor:100; is what I got
09:55<V453000>maddy_: thanks (:
09:55<V453000>andythenorth: on ALL of my engines :)
09:56<maddy_>providing supplies to primary industries to increase production is cool, what I didn't like in FIRS is that I had to deliver them gradually in small bits, by building a truck just for that
09:56<andythenorth>how do you know you don’t have to do that in YETI? o_O
09:56<V453000>nobody said it isnt going to be gradually :D
09:56<V453000>but yeah that mechanic is yet to be decided
09:57<maddy_>I don't know, I am just...hoping :)
09:57<andythenorth>I think you should do them insane
09:57<andythenorth>like FIRS ones are now insane
09:57<andythenorth>hmm V453000 really did set all running costs ~same
09:58<V453000>sure did
09:58<V453000>I tried to describe most of my current ideas
09:58<V453000>no reason to give a shit about running costs
09:58<maddy_>just hated the micromanagement of transporting supplies to a transfer station, then building trucks with timetables so they deliver the supplies just at the right speed etc.
09:59<V453000>well there are many various way how to do it
09:59<V453000>not just trucks
09:59<V453000>e.g. leaving coal trains with 1 wagon for supplies, returning with that wagon back to the mine
09:59<andythenorth>it’s not micromanagement :P
10:00<V453000>andy, in case of e.g. farms it is just slave work :D
10:00<andythenorth>micromanagement is if I change the amount randomly every few months :P
10:00<andythenorth>V453000: I fricking hate farms
10:00<V453000>random changes in productions are easily handled by self-regulating things like auto-refilling stations (overflows) etc
10:00<V453000>you wouldnt win anything there andythenorth :P
10:00<andythenorth>farms are crap
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10:01<V453000>andythenorth: I described some FIRS BAD FEATURES in the blog article
10:01<andythenorth>V453000: what is this SANE MODE?
10:01<V453000>farms/industry placement/not all industries create supplies
10:01<V453000>andythenorth: sane mode is a lie
10:02<V453000>but yeah fuck knows, the chains can be replaced a lot, the system will probably stay
10:02<maddy_>the graphics for the industries is a lot of work
10:02<V453000>I know right :)
10:02<andythenorth>V453000: have you played FIRS Heart of Darkness?
10:02<V453000>a bit yeah
10:03<V453000>the ports are an excellent feature, works very well with the temperate economy where every primary can suddenly produce supplies
10:03<andythenorth>it’s totally unbalanced, but it doesn’t have the same problems with supplies
10:03<andythenorth>supplies in ‘FIRS Economy’ are boring
10:03<andythenorth>and yes, they lead to emphasis on supplies cargos
10:03<andythenorth>then ‘oh crap, too many supplies'
10:04<V453000>fact that ports have production cap means that it supports to use more ports instead of just one, which I also like
10:04<andythenorth>‘Heart of Darkness' is less logical than ‘FIRS’
10:04<andythenorth>logic isn’t good
10:04<V453000>:D (:
10:05<V453000>anyway, I gtfo (: cya
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10:29<LordAro>i saw that
10:29<LordAro>vaguely scary stuff
10:32<andythenorth>understated :)
10:33<andythenorth>precisely scary
10:33<andythenorth>the amount of time spent on measures like implementing SSL, and setting strong passwords, enforcing good infosec discipline etc
10:34<andythenorth>is a staggering amount of waste given that a massive part of the internet had the door unlocked
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10:39<TheBix>hey guys
10:39<TheBix>anyone know anything about development?
10:40<SpComb>I heard the OpenSSL guys know how to write C
10:42<LordAro>well, kinda
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10:54<andythenorth>default trains are way too cheap to run
10:54<andythenorth>I wonder how I used to lose so badly :(
10:54<@peter1138>Your mum.
10:54<TheBix>how do I get the next train in front of a train in the code?
10:54<Xaroth|Work>as i said, 99% of money earnt should be spent on running cost :P
10:54<andythenorth>my mum didn’t play much TTD
10:54<andythenorth>mostly Repton
10:55<andythenorth>and Mr. Ee
10:55<andythenorth>and Snapper
10:56<@peter1138>Which Repton?
10:56<@peter1138>2 was so evil :S
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10:58<andythenorth>most of them
10:58<andythenorth>and yes evil
10:58<andythenorth>there was also level editing
10:59<andythenorth>many happy wasted hours
10:59*andythenorth spent about as much time editing games as playing them
10:59<andythenorth>also badly coding very bad Acorn Basic games
11:00<andythenorth>without any understanding of what a sprite blitter actually was or should do
11:00<andythenorth>someone should have given me a book or something :P
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11:20<mg_>hi. question: do towns grow if i connect two of them with a road? i do not transprot anything between them with that road, just connect them
11:24<LordAro>makes no difference
11:24<LordAro>other than they have a 'free' road to build on
11:24<@planetmaker>so it might ever so slightly impact growth :)
11:24<@planetmaker>most often immeasurably little
11:24<mg_>i see
11:25<mg_>thx :)
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11:41<ZirconiumX>I didn't know Macbook Pros snored.
11:45<andythenorth>mine does
12:01<@peter1138>Hmm, nice, my 3TB drive is dying...
12:02<ZirconiumX>Backup time!
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12:43<Eddi|zuHause>[09.04.2014 04:41] <peter1138> Hmm, could just commit what I have and let MJP sort out the rest ;) <-- always a good idea to let other people figure out the details :)
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12:47<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, well it's SSE...
12:49<@planetmaker>then ask him...
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12:50<@peter1138>Sure, that's the plan. Meanwhile I'll play with 32bpp-optimized so I can see path reservations etc...
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13:41<frosch123>V453000: i like toffee way more than candyfloss
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26452 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2014-04-09 17:45:18 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>basque - 18 changes by laxkax
13:45<@DorpsGek>english_US - 2 changes by Supercheese
13:45<@DorpsGek>russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
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13:50<@Alberth>more interesting cargo chain? I tend to do candyfloss, as the toffee quarry looks so stupid to me
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14:00<XeryusTC>is it just me or is there some kind of weird acceleration going on when scrolling with the mouse at higher zoom levels?
14:03<frosch123>Alberth: sugar, toffee and candyfloss are equivalent
14:03<frosch123>but i like the toffee quary graphics most :p
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14:08<andythenorth>bon soiree
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14:21<andythenorth>what is making?
14:24*Alberth is mostly throwing patches into trunks, of work done in the last 2 weeks
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14:24<@Alberth>unfortunately, no openttd patches :(
14:27<andythenorth>I should have aliased makego=‘make install && say done’ years ago
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14:28<@Alberth>aiming for finishing rather than perfection is an art too :)
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14:29<@Alberth>hi hi, wolf
14:29<Wolf01>hi all o/
14:29<andythenorth>the time wasted watching shells compile, instead of reading the interwebs :(
14:30<andythenorth>must be hours
14:31<Wolf01>oh oh happy birthday Terkhen
14:32<andythenorth>I need a faster compile :P
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14:34<andythenorth>Alberth: wondering if there’s a way to read modified date of a python module’s source? What would I search for?
14:35<andythenorth>python does it when compiling .pyc, but maybe I have no access to that :P
14:36<andythenorth>hmm found an example
14:37<@Alberth>the module its __file__, and use the os.stat ?
14:37<andythenorth>will try
14:38<@Alberth>the stat module gives access to the fields returned by os.stat
14:39<@peter1138># cos i know where syd barret lives
14:41<andythenorth>print os.stat(__file__).st_mtime seems to work
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14:48<@Alberth>:o didn't know you could do that :)
14:51<@peter1138>Hmm, so anything 32bpp other than zBase to play with atm?
14:53<@peter1138>Hmm, locks2.diff
14:53<andythenorth>this definitely won’t go wrong in future :P print inspect.stack()[2][1]
14:53<andythenorth>as a way of getting at a calling module
14:54<@peter1138>Do it!
14:54<andythenorth>I did :(
14:54<andythenorth>this will cause regret
14:54<andythenorth>in future
14:55<@peter1138>Hmm, need to find a save with locks.
14:55<Phreeze>how can i turn those fucking ufos off !!!!!
14:56<andythenorth>I am about to write some caching using a file on disk
14:56<@Alberth>disable disasters?
14:56<andythenorth>I am definitely not competent to do this
14:56<Phreeze>i recheck disasters but i'm nearly 200% sure they are off
14:57<Phreeze>aaand the setting was on
14:57*Phreeze slaps that setting wound
14:58<+michi_cc>peter1138: is 32bpp (only terrain though).
14:58<Phreeze>something that distrubs me is that "train 1 can't find a way to blabla" and "train 1 gets very old" is in the same news-category
14:58<Phreeze>i dont care about old trains, as i turned it off
14:58<Phreeze>but i care about misplaced signs and trainjams
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15:06<@peter1138>Error: Assertion failed at line 79 of /home/petern/ottd/git/trunk/src/water_map.h: IsTileType(t, MP_WATER)
15:06<@peter1138>pom te pom!
15:09<Pikka>you bruk it
15:11<Pikka>what, never?
15:12<andythenorth>oh look
15:12<andythenorth>a pikka
15:12<Pikka>whence a pikka?
15:14<@peter1138>Oh okay, I did.
15:14<@peter1138>Forgot it wasn't a clean build :p
15:15<andythenorth>is .cache a thing we do?
15:15<andythenorth>nml does it
15:16<Pikka>how goes hoss?
15:16<andythenorth>hoss has costs
15:16<Pikka>dan posted as if there'd been an update, but it's still alpha 3 on the fruitstand?
15:16<andythenorth>I got distracted by ‘optimisation'
15:16<andythenorth>it’s alpha 3?
15:16<andythenorth>more alphas soon
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15:36<+glx>[20:08:06] <andythenorth> bon soiree <-- bonne soirée ;)
15:36<andythenorth>what is not equal about these values? 1397067993.0 1397067993.0
15:37<Phreeze>noob andy
15:37<+glx>something after 0 maybe :)
15:37<Phreeze>type ?
15:37<andythenorth>I’m co-ercing both to float
15:38<andythenorth>oh no I’m not
15:38<andythenorth>I’m printing them both as float :P
15:38<andythenorth>not same
15:38<+glx>printed they are the same ;)
15:38<frosch123>try printing the difference
15:38<frosch123>in scientific notation
15:40<XeryusTC>andythenorth: did you and pm play a game on the prozone?
15:40<andythenorth>not recently
15:41<XeryusTC>there is an arctic game on it that has reached the end according to the gamescript
15:44<andythenorth>I just wrote a caching thing that saves 8s on most compiles
15:44<andythenorth>probably severely unwise
15:45<andythenorth>I already thought of a way it can go wrong
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15:46<@peter1138>I wrote a thing to cache newgrf information. It went wrong after the first go.
15:46<@peter1138>Seems to be much faster these days anyway.
15:47<@peter1138>@seen belugas
15:47<@DorpsGek>peter1138: belugas was last seen in #openttd 3 weeks, 0 days, 6 hours, 26 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <Belugas> hello
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15:57<andythenorth>it can’t be good, layering on all this crap for faster compiles
15:57<andythenorth>it’s going to bite me :P
15:58<@peter1138>Anything like ccache for it?
15:59<andythenorth>the templater caches some stuff, and nml caches some stuff
15:59<andythenorth>but I had to write my own string in the middle
15:59<andythenorth>still, I can’t be worse than OpenSSL or Apple’s programmers, right?
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16:07<frosch123>hmm, did they invent a new cve severity level?
16:08<andythenorth>all your key belong to us?
16:08<@peter1138>CVSS 2 20.1?
16:08<frosch123>ah, i confused debian with cve ratings
16:09<@peter1138>Hmm, nearly £5m cash. Maybe I can build airports again.
16:09<andythenorth>Pikka: the rivets are animated
16:09<andythenorth>you have to look closely
16:11<andythenorth>let me know when you’ve found them
16:11<@peter1138>10cc is missing all those 5000hp trains we're used to.
16:12<Pikka>but at least it has animated rivets
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16:16<andythenorth>Pikka: my universal engine is universally £50k to buy
16:16<andythenorth>which is nice and in the middle :P
16:16<andythenorth>that is pointlessly pleasing
16:16<Pikka>are you updating a banana?
16:17<andythenorth>only if you want all costs £0
16:17<andythenorth>running costs
16:17<andythenorth>I was going to do them tonight
16:17<andythenorth>but I just spent 2 hours saving 8 seconds
16:18<andythenorth>wagon running costs, yes or no?
16:18<Pikka>yes, imo
16:21<Pikka>is local authority cost for removal signed? can you make it so the town likes you demolisihing certain buildings? I'm guessing "no"...
16:21<andythenorth>gentrify slums, gain rating?
16:21<andythenorth>build tesco, gain rating?
16:21<andythenorth>until 2004, backlash happens
16:24<frosch123>Pikka: no, it isn't
16:25<andythenorth>Pikka: what say about running costs?
16:26*andythenorth looks what NARS 2 says about them
16:26<Pikka>are you doing the 75% off when stationary thing?
16:26<andythenorth>NARS 2 says ‘moar'
16:26<frosch123>my unwritten blog says: set purchase cost to zero, and running cost that high that iron ore trains run at a loss
16:26<andythenorth>Pikka: not yes
16:26<andythenorth>not yet *
16:26<andythenorth>maybe never
16:26<@planetmaker>why ore trains at a loss?
16:26<frosch123>so you have to make the money with secondary and tertiary cargos
16:27<andythenorth>NARS 2 looks like running cost is turned up by 4?
16:27<Pikka>about that, probably
16:27<andythenorth>frosch123: dump the cargo payment rate?
16:27<Pikka>but it is tuned for 75% off when stationary
16:27<frosch123>andythenorth: i cannot put out all the teaser quoted at once :)
16:28<Pikka>+ all that other nonsense that NARS does with running costs
16:28<andythenorth>NARS 2 costs look like the ones I’m thinking of
16:28<andythenorth>except no 75% discount
16:28<andythenorth>am I being mean?
16:28<Pikka>the discount is a goodfeature imo
16:29<andythenorth>BAD FEATURE
16:29<andythenorth>that won’t get annoying :P
16:29<Pikka>it allows trains which spend a long time loading cargo to be profitable
16:30<Pikka>while not making trains which bounce back and forth with instant full loads overly profitable
16:31<andythenorth>I might add it
16:34<Pikka>0s everywhere
16:35<andythenorth>can we declare 2048 over yet?
16:35<frosch123>there are a lot more negative than positive numbers
16:36<Pikka>it's not over until the fat lady gets 65536
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16:44<andythenorth>let’s just have easy costs
16:45<andythenorth>want them harder, use base cost mod grf
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16:47<Pikka>base costs are local to the grf, if you set the base costs in hoss no other newgrf (except one which specifically alters hoss) will change them.
16:48<frosch123>base costs are only local, for features the grf provides stuff for
16:48<Pikka>well, yes
16:48<frosch123>grf which do nothing but basecosts do them global
16:48<andythenorth>what do we want from costs? We want to make money in our games, yes / no?
16:48<frosch123>read by unwritten blog .p
16:49<andythenorth>I will
16:49<andythenorth>in the future
16:49<andythenorth>but for today I need to set a value :P
16:49<Pikka>interesting, frosch123
16:49<Pikka>so global basecost mods break the balance between grfs which set their own basecosts? :D
16:49<frosch123>they are incremental
16:49<frosch123>they do not overwrite, but add
16:50<frosch123>that's why there is a "bast cost mod" grf :)
16:50<Pikka>fair enough :P
16:50<frosch123>it's the html apporach
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16:51<frosch123>change features to make the more useful while keeping compatibilty, at the cost of making them more complicated :)
16:51<Pikka>andy: is the "halve all costs" parameter in 10cc a bad feature?
16:51<Pikka>high costs for singleplayer where costs are for balance, low costs for GS games where you want to build build build?
16:52<andythenorth>Pikka: HEQS has same
16:52<andythenorth>I dunno
16:52<andythenorth>thing is you have to remember to set it in advance
16:53<andythenorth>it’s the best we can do
16:53<andythenorth>but it’s pretty crappy imo
16:56<andythenorth>pretty tricky
16:56<andythenorth>I want to get a spread of costs
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17:07<andythenorth>ok that will do
17:13<andythenorth>Pikka: new hoss
17:17<andythenorth>also for bed andythenorth
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