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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-04-12

---Logopened Sat Apr 12 00:00:07 2014
---Daychanged Sat Apr 12 2014
00:00<Supercheese>"For example in Polish language the second form applies for numbers that end with 2, 3 or 4, .but excluding -teen numbers. "
00:45<Flygon>Man, dumb idea #3821903
00:45<Flygon>OpenTTD has support for Telegraph, Telephone, Fibre, and various wireless communication towers and lines
00:45<Flygon>Thus allowing profit to be made from the electronic transport of information :B
00:54<Supercheese>I wrote a grf for power lines once
00:54<Supercheese>it could just as easily be for telephone lines
00:54<Supercheese>"100 packets of data waiting"
00:55<Supercheese>would be pretty easy to code
00:55<Supercheese>what sort of "vehicles" would carry the packets of data?
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00:56<Supercheese>I went with "sparks" for carrying electricity
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00:56<Supercheese>I suppose they could carry data just as well
00:57<Supercheese>make it a town growth requirement
00:57<Supercheese>"Must have communication"
00:57<Supercheese>"Town demands faster Internet"
00:58<Supercheese>you may be on to something...
00:58<Supercheese>So then you build a lorry, fill it with microSD cards: http://what-if.xkcd.com/31/
00:59<Supercheese>"Capacity: 1.6 x 10^15 Bytes of data"
00:59<Supercheese>:D
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01:26<Flygon>Supercheese: Sorry for the delay
01:26<Flygon>Well, I was thinking more
01:27<Flygon>You plop down telephone exchange or whatever, and the game starts automatically doing the peering for you
01:27<Flygon>Instead of you building 'vehicles' to transport whatever
01:27<Supercheese>Ah, that would require a source code patch
01:27<Supercheese>I was thinking of possibilities through newgrf only
01:27<Flygon>Because, honestly, it's a bit silly to have electricity as a cargo to be transported :P
01:27<Flygon>As proven by the fourth climate :B
01:27<Flygon>Yes, it would require a patch
01:28<Supercheese>Eh, I think it'd be cute to have it as a cargo
01:28<Supercheese>but then you run into the silly limits on houses
01:28<Flygon>But assuming the whole basic "x by pipe/wire" thing is implemented, and can be stuffed over and under existing whatevers
01:28<Flygon>It'd be quite nice
01:28<Flygon>eg. installing telephone lines on the 'same' tile as roads
01:28<Flygon>But, it would be extensive... and that's the barrier
01:29<Supercheese>like houses can only accept a max of 3 cargoes
01:29<Supercheese>oh, but can they produce any number of cargoes?
01:30<Supercheese>I've not investigated until now...
01:35<Supercheese>very nice, looks like houses can produce any number of cargoes
01:35<Supercheese>so each house could produce communication data
01:36<Supercheese>then for the 19th century you build a telegraph station, build the lines, and send "vehicles" across to carry the data
01:36<Supercheese>eventually it upgrades to telephone lines
01:36<Supercheese>and then radio broadcasts, hmm
01:37<Supercheese>although those aren't sent by houses, just received
01:37<Supercheese>an interesting idea, to be certain
01:38<Pinkbeast>Vehicles> this would only make sense with proper support for continuous transport.
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01:39<Pinkbeast>And of course there's already one communication data cargo in the game. :-)
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02:48<andythenorth>@seen pikka
02:48<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 21 hours, 49 minutes, and 25 seconds ago: <Pikka> simples
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03:06<andythenorth>o/ Alberth
03:07<@Alberth>moin!
03:07<@Alberth>all horses running smoothly?
03:13<andythenorth>so far
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04:45<Wolf01>hi hi
04:46<@Alberth>o/
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04:49<DanMacK>Hey all
04:49<DanMacK>@seen andythenorth
04:49<@DorpsGek>DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 1 hour, 35 minutes, and 21 seconds ago: <andythenorth> so far
04:51<@Alberth>hey, as usual, he's coming and going all day :)
04:51<@planetmaker>moin DanMacK :)
04:52<DanMacK>hey PM
04:53<@planetmaker>nice work on iron horse :)
04:56<DanMacK>thanks
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06:58<frosch123>Supercheese: https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/StringCodes#Using_plural_forms <- there are way more funny plural forms; btw. czech has the same 7 cases as latin
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07:16<andythenorth>can GS track cargo between source-destination pairs?
07:16<andythenorth>wondering about a simple ‘connections’ challenge GS
07:17<@Alberth>hmm, probably not
07:17<@Alberth>I wonder how subsidies do it
07:17<andythenorth>subsidy framework does it
07:22<andythenorth>Refittable to: [nothing]
07:22<andythenorth>but “Offers auto-refit”
07:22<andythenorth>something wrong there :P
07:22<andythenorth>I guess I have to have another switch :(
07:22<andythenorth>or not care
07:27*andythenorth wonders what max sensible price for an RV is
07:27<andythenorth>probably £50k
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07:41<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r26456 trunk/bin/baseset/no_sound.obs (2014-04-12 11:41:45 UTC)
07:41<@DorpsGek>-Update: Baseset translations.
07:43<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r26457 /trunk/src (industry_cmd.cpp industry_map.h) (2014-04-12 11:43:04 UTC)
07:43<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Remove unused parameter from SetIndustryCompleted
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09:06<@peter1138>Heh... Pronborough.
09:08<talebowl>I'm doing some more work on the location button (have been doing some other stuff for the past couple of days, but code should now be more or less done, apart from rechecking everything) and I'm currently working on the actual sprite. I've added the image into media/extra_grf/openttdgui.png and I've also updated media/extra_grf/openttdgui.nfo and make has made the appropriate changes to the files indicated in the changesets some of y
09:08<talebowl>ou pointed me to. However, the sprite doesn't show up in the game (the button seems to be slightly bigger, and there is a greyish line of about 1 or 2 pixels). When I run grf2html on the bin/baseset/openttd.grf (with the win palette) most of the actual images don't show up (however, as that was also the case before I made my changes, I assume that this is normal ) but my added sprite (#175) isn't even in the appropriate table (Action
09:08<talebowl>5 Type 15). I would think that this means that there is a problem with my .nfo edits (I added the sprite line and updated the count). Do I also need to run grfcodec on the nfo's or is just running make enough?
09:10<frosch123>did you edit the first line of the info, where the comment says something about the number of sprites?
09:11<talebowl>I did. As the new sprite would be #175, I updated it to 176 (as it was previously also last+1)
09:12<frosch123>https://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_Debugging#Sprite_alignment_tool <- can you access your sprite ingame via that hing?
09:12<andythenorth>is it bad that I am including my own inflation?
09:13<talebowl>I'll try that, thanks
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09:18<talebowl>frosch123: Nope, that doesn't seem to work. #174 is the cargodist smallmap icon, and when I pick that one and click next, I get one of the signals
09:19<frosch123>did you increment the constant for number of gui sprites in sprites.h then?
09:20<talebowl>ah right, I forgot that. Thanks
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09:25<andythenorth>do buses and trucks have different running costs?
09:25<andythenorth>I can only find PR_RUNNING_ROADVEH
09:26<andythenorth>but I have variance between buses and trucks of 3 orders of magnitude
09:26<andythenorth>and my code looks right
09:28<andythenorth>hmm
09:28<andythenorth>unrelated a loaded newgrf in this game screws with base costs
09:28<andythenorth>for all vehicles
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09:35<andythenorth>so I have a bus with run cost factor 27
09:35<andythenorth>and running cost £1350 / yr
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09:35<andythenorth>I have a freight tram with run cost factor 27
09:35<andythenorth>and running cost £10 / yr
09:35<andythenorth>did I just not get enough sleep?
09:35<andythenorth>or is this odd?
09:35<Phreeze>base running costs differ i think
09:36<TheBix>hey guys
09:36<frosch123>andythenorth: any callback involved?
09:36<frosch123>articulated parts?
09:36<andythenorth>articulated in some cases
09:36<andythenorth>but it doesn’t seem significant
09:37<andythenorth>I don’t recall a cost cb, I’ll check
09:37<frosch123>never mind, for rv only the front matters
09:37<frosch123>no articulated effect
09:38<andythenorth>there are no CBs
09:38<andythenorth>nor is it purchase list handling
09:40<andythenorth>yair
09:40<andythenorth>if I just specify 255 in the action 0 property, the buses are ~1000x more expensive to run
09:41<andythenorth>compared to trucks
09:45<andythenorth>running_cost_base wasn’t set
09:45<andythenorth>solved
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10:10<TheBix>guys im on windows
10:11<TheBix>how do I make a patch file?
10:11<frosch123>with your version control system
10:11<frosch123>svn, hg, git
10:11<@Alberth>or with diff
10:12<TheBix>what best practices should I use to make sure my patch is compatible with many others?
10:14<frosch123>the patch format is more or less the same
10:14<@Alberth>use the unified diff format
10:15<@Alberth>add the revision in the filename of the patch file, so people know what version to apply the patch
10:16<@Alberth>ie something like my_change_r26453.patch
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10:21<TheBix>my patch should work for all verions
10:21<TheBix>unless they change rain::GetCurrentMaxSpeed()
10:21<TheBix>Train*
10:21<TheBix>which I doubt happens much
10:21<frosch123>i doubt it works for ottd < 0.5 :p
10:22<TheBix>guys how do I tell if theres a signal on a track?
10:23<frosch123>check rail_map.h
10:23<@Alberth>TheBix: unless you really verify every single revision, just claiming that it works for the one revision you used is much more feasible
10:23<TheBix>Alberth, yes of course.
10:23<@Alberth>if other people want to apply it to another revision, your number gives them a starting point to start checking
10:25<@Alberth>a revision number is mostly just that, a starting point. Whether a patch can be applied to earlier or later revisions heavily depends on the patch itself
10:29<@planetmaker>I'm already happy when a patch works for the revision it claims to be made for ;)
10:31<TheBix>any patches that people are interested in?
10:31<TheBix>preferably little ones
10:31<TheBix>i feel like writing one
10:31<@planetmaker>any of the bugs in our issue tracker which can interest you?
10:31<TheBix>I just rewrote the ATC patch as a little practice thing (and also partially because people say its full of bugs and sucH)
10:32<TheBix>planetmaker, can you link me the issue tracker?
10:34<@Alberth>bugs.openttd.org
10:37<@planetmaker>https://bugs.openttd.org/index.php?string=&project=1&search_name=&type[]=1&sev[]=&pri[]=&due[]=0&reported[]=&cat[]=&status[]=open&percent[]=&opened=&dev=&closed=&duedatefrom=&duedateto=&changedfrom=&changedto=&openedfrom=&openedto=&closedfrom=&closedto=&do=index
10:37<@planetmaker>it gets long if one adds the filtering :)
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10:49<andythenorth>balancing across sets is much easier when you make all of the sets :P
10:49<frosch123>are you sure?
10:50<frosch123>i mean you cannot blame anyone
10:50<andythenorth>I blame the algorithm
10:58<SpComb>the only good strategy for random online multiplayer games is a) a compact industry network to pay off your loan and generate some capital b) build out a massive passenger network
10:58<SpComb>is there autoreplace for wagons?
10:59<frosch123>yes, at the bottom you can select engines/wagons
10:59<@Alberth>:o never used that :)
10:59<andythenorth>:o
10:59<andythenorth>:)
11:00<@planetmaker>feature since... dunno, 2007?
11:00<andythenorth>essential
11:00<@planetmaker>:)
11:00<mg_>:-)
11:00<andythenorth>slightly confusing because it’s a toggle
11:00<andythenorth>but it doesn’t look like a control
11:01<andythenorth>and it’s not an on / off toggle
11:01<andythenorth>and it’s next to a dropdown for replacing by railtype
11:01<andythenorth>so quite easily missed as a function
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11:16<@peter1138>Shoobedoobe.
11:20<Phreeze>so
11:20<Phreeze>dog is half dead after that walk ^^
11:21<frosch123>if you only do it half, it will recover
11:22<Phreeze>that's what i intend^^
11:22<Phreeze>she shouldn't die ;)
11:23<LordAro>TheBix, clearly you should http://freerct.org :p
11:23<Phreeze>that free rct project is going way to slow
11:24<Phreeze>blog started in 2011
11:24<LordAro>your point?
11:24<LordAro>contribute, then it can go faster!
11:24<Phreeze>it will never be released as a final version ;)
11:24<frosch123>don't start a blog
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11:25<LordAro>Phreeze, and you think OTTD will ever have a final version?
11:25<Phreeze>from version 1.0.0 it has
11:25<Eshays>LordAro, what's freeRCT?
11:25<Phreeze>for me it's a "complete" version
11:25-!-Eshays is now known as _TheBix
11:25<Phreeze>free rollercoaster tycoon
11:26<_TheBix>based of the real RCT code?
11:26<LordAro>Phreeze, what makes you think frct will never reach that point?
11:26<_TheBix>or not?
11:26<LordAro>_TheBix, not
11:26<LordAro>reimplementation only
11:26<_TheBix>that's unfortunate
11:26<_TheBix>RCT is now like rogue software
11:26<LordAro>_TheBix, well, we're no chris sawyer, so we can't do the whole thing in x86 asm ;)
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11:27<_TheBix>LordAro, it would be good if there was a real openRCT2
11:27<_TheBix>or something
11:27<@Alberth>actually, we can, but it would be even slower :p
11:27<_TheBix>cuz right now I have a VM on my pc just to run RCT
11:27<_TheBix>x86 asm is not too hard compared to c i guess
11:28<_TheBix>esp if you use a good assembler
11:28<frosch123>what version of rct is the popular one?
11:28<frosch123>1, 2, 3?
11:28<_TheBix>frosch123, 1 and 2
11:28<LordAro>frosch123, 1+2
11:28<frosch123>what does 3 do wrong?
11:28<LordAro>3D
11:28<LordAro>"<_TheBix> LordAro, it would be good if there was a real openRCT2" i think you'll find frct is attempting to do both ;)
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11:28<frosch123>interface? looks?
11:29<LordAro>everything
11:29<_TheBix>frosch123, its just not as in depth
11:29<_TheBix>frosch123, its got a new 3d engine
11:29<LordAro>well, probably not interface :L
11:29<_TheBix>which is pretty good IMO
11:29<_TheBix>however the only disadvantage is that it's not as in depth as the original 2
11:29<_TheBix>IMO
11:30<_TheBix>therefore its missing the appeal of the original ones
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11:30<LordAro>i've never played it myself, but i hear it's a lot more buggy then the originals too
11:31<LordAro>(likely because it's a completely different code base)
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11:32<Phreeze>17:26:10] <LordAro> Phreeze, what makes you think frct will never reach that point?
11:32<Phreeze>cause it's under dev for over 3 years already
11:32<Phreeze>and nothing remotely playable as it seems
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11:33<LordAro>ottd was in development for 6 years (+ however many ludde spent on it before initial release) before it reached 1.0.0
11:33<LordAro>and i would say there's playable stuff
11:33<LordAro>you clearly haven't tried it
11:34<Phreeze>it was niceley playable in version 0.6 too
11:34<Phreeze>i think playable = everything works, no major bugs
11:34<LordAro>sure, it's not a 'game' yet, but it's getting there
11:34<Phreeze>even if oyu have to import graphics
11:34<LordAro>i think frct is at the same point ;)
11:34<LordAro>everything works
11:36<LordAro>i'll freely admit development has been slow, but that's because it's largely developed by only 2 people, who both have day job/exams to worry about
11:37<LordAro>(and 1 of those people doesn't do a huge amount :L )
11:37<frosch123>i've heard they also work on other silly projects
11:39<Phreeze>they should push it more by advertising on open forums
11:40<frosch123>nah, then you only get kids
11:40<@planetmaker>and we want the retirement brigade? :P
11:41-!-Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-66-108-182-178.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
11:41<LordAro>from my perspective, you're all (developers) old anyway :p
11:42<@planetmaker>you should have come to the last openttd meeting ;)
11:42<LordAro>could've, but you'd all leave me out by speaking german :p
11:42<frosch123>i am not sure about the average age of ottd vs frct :p
11:42<frosch123>wut, noone spoke german
11:43<@planetmaker>LordAro, I can ensure you we didn't... only few actually could speak german
11:43<LordAro>german/dutch ?
11:43<frosch123>swedish/french/czech
11:43<@planetmaker>finnish
11:44<LordAro>well, i'll put serious consideration into the next one ;)
11:44<@planetmaker>no English native speaker, though :P
11:44<@planetmaker>thus proven again: the international language is bad English :P
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11:45<Phreeze>luxembourgish ^^
11:45<@Alberth>planetmaker: false, we had belugas
11:45<Phreeze>k german english french too, and some spanish
11:45<frosch123>nah, the brittish just cannot speak properly
11:45<Phreeze>and some pirrrrate
11:45<@planetmaker>Alberth, his native language is not English :)
11:45-!-Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-66-108-182-178.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
11:45<@planetmaker>(it's French)
11:45<@Alberth>oh, canadian of course :)
11:46<Phreeze>you mean: bad accent french ?
11:46<LordAro>Alberth, i thought you were Dutch? :L
11:46<frosch123>anyway, we agreed on speeking unicornish at the start
11:46<@planetmaker>true :)
11:47<@Alberth>LordAro: I didn't claim to be english, did I?
11:48<LordAro>Alberth, well, no, but..
11:48<LordAro>you certainly live in Dutch-land :p
11:49<frosch123>dutchistan?
11:49<LordAro>that's the one :p
11:49<@planetmaker>lol
11:49*peter1138 ponders 512x256/very low towns
11:50<frosch123>do 4kx4k with 2 tons
11:50<frosch123>*towns
11:50<@Alberth>one town is enough :)
11:50<@planetmaker>:)
11:50<@planetmaker>totally flat, 2 towns, 4k^2
11:50<@planetmaker>no industries (initially)
11:50<LordAro>one town, high industries
11:50<@planetmaker>no trees
11:51<LordAro>see if some buffers can overflow :p
11:51<LordAro>planetmaker, of course, the 2 towns have to be in 2 opposite corners
11:52<Phreeze>2 airports + afk
11:52<@planetmaker>No, if you want additional towns, fund them yourself
11:52<__ln__>here's a critical patch that everyone's been waiting for: http://www.nbl.fi/~nbl3392/ottd/spellingfix_2014.diff
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11:52<Phreeze>spelling ?
11:53<frosch123>Phreeze: ln submits a spelling diff every year
11:53<@peter1138>totally flat.. how tedious.
11:53<frosch123>that's why the diff is called 2014
11:53<Phreeze>what does it do ? :)
11:54<LordAro>Phreeze, fixes spellings :p
11:54<@planetmaker>I guess we can accept the patch
11:54<frosch123>one of the group fix suggestion patches also fixed a typo :)
11:54<LordAro>i notice this still hasn't been fixed http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/file/fe8b973688d1/config.lib#l2234 :p
11:58<@planetmaker>sure that it's endianness with two 'n'?
11:58<@planetmaker>it looks so wrong to me :)
11:58<LordAro>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endianness
11:58<__ln__>http://googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=endianess&word2=endianness
11:59<@planetmaker>the winner takes it all, eh?
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12:00<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r26458 /trunk (4 files in 3 dirs) (2014-04-12 15:59:56 UTC)
12:00<@DorpsGek>-Doc: Correct a few spelling mistakes (__ln__)
12:00<@planetmaker>today is commit day
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12:02<__ln__>thanks
12:02<@planetmaker>thank you :)
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12:19<andythenorth>expensive, these trucks
12:19<andythenorth>probably too expensive
12:22<@Alberth>the hard-game people will love you :)
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12:25-!-LSky [LSky@5ED4B2EA.cm-7-5c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd
12:25<Snail>hi guys, I just created a new task on flyspray
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12:25<Snail>my idea was to add a variable for trains that counts the tiles that have been traveled since the last visit to a station or depot
12:26<Snail>I wonder if it has ever been proposed earlier?
12:27<LordAro>what would be the purpose of this?
12:27<frosch123>many sets use the amount of days since last service for liveries and such
12:29<@peter1138>Hmm, masses of passengers with CDist :S
12:31<Phreeze>masses of passengers, now that they see, they are taking actually to their destination ^^
12:32<@Alberth>not really, the tycoon still decides where you can go :p
12:33<Snail>the purpose of this would be to allow some locomotives to travel longer distances than others
12:33<Snail>in the old times, there were small tank steamers that had very little coal and water, and bigger ones that had a larger reservoir
12:33<Snail>so, if you buy a small tank steamer and try to run it over a very long distance, it will slow down after a certain number of tiles traveled, because it will be running out of fuel
12:34<Snail>just something to differentiate engines a bit better
12:34<Snail>“amount of days since last service” would not work, since an engine could stay idle at a signal, therefore using up very little fuel
12:36<andythenorth>Snail: game balancing is over-rated :)
12:36<Phreeze>realism is overrated ;)
12:36<Snail>well, look at it as a way to make small tank steamers cheaper to buy :p
12:37<@Alberth>with the amount of cash that you usually have? :)
12:37<andythenorth>just make them cheaper? o_O
12:38<andythenorth>Snail: how many engines do you have?
12:38<Snail>and then no one would buy the bigger ones :p
12:38<Snail>in the NG set, there are a dozen steamers (1880 - 1940)
12:38<Snail>and a few diesel railcars this variable would be useful for as well
12:39<Phreeze>on a long trip, you could add dummy stations
12:39<Phreeze>as "refuel points" then
12:39<andythenorth>Snail: just delete 8 of them. You’ll feel good when you do it.
12:39<andythenorth>4 is enough for 60 years
12:40<Phreeze>4 steamers for 60 years ???
12:40<Snail>andythenorth: just don’t use 8 of them if you play with the set :D
12:40<@Alberth>but they clutter the buy menu :)
12:40<andythenorth>not just that
12:40<Phreeze>if there are 6 freight 6 passenger, it's ok
12:40<andythenorth>they clutter the grf author’s brain
12:40<andythenorth>too much work trying to ‘balance’
12:40<andythenorth>but there is no ‘balance'
12:40<Snail>don’t worry, my brain is already cluttered enough :p
12:41<@Alberth>it's realistic, there is no balance?
12:41<Snail>at the end of the day, it’s a design decision, and every grf author thinks in a different way
12:41<Snail>I think it’s pointless to convince someone to adopt ideas other than his own ;)
12:41<andythenorth>well yes
12:42<andythenorth>doesn’t stop me and Pikka though
12:42<Snail>no need to stop anyone :)
12:42<@Alberth>Snail: it may trigger you into reconsidering your initial ideas
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12:43<@Alberth>which is never a bad thing, if only to confirm they are still valid
12:43<Snail>I already thought about them, my point is to give the set an array of possibilities the player can choose from
12:44<@Alberth>like almost all newgrfs
12:44<frosch123>well, if you ask an ai author, e will likely say it should be done the same as aircraft ranges
12:44<frosch123>no ai can figure out when a newgrf suddenly decreases power after some distance
12:45<Snail>but an ai could use an engine over distances that are smaller or equal than an engine’s range
12:45<andythenorth>the solution is to just build more depots?
12:45<Snail>if the distance is larger, switch to another engine
12:45<@planetmaker>omg, a range property for trains? Na
12:45<@planetmaker>-1 from me
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12:45<andythenorth>I am +/-0
12:46<frosch123>planetmaker: yeah, would be hard to implement or play with :p
12:46<andythenorth>it would add some extra choices, but ultimately you just build yet more depots
12:46<frosch123>who knows how long a distance is
12:46<andythenorth>the only really challenge is that depot routing is totally borked
12:46<Snail>why hard to play with?
12:46<frosch123>make a detour and then the train is screwed :p
12:46<@planetmaker>the same gameplay behaviour indeed can be achieved with day since last service
12:46<Snail>use certain engines for short, suburban trains, and others for longer spans
12:46<frosch123>Snail: if i have a winding track in the hills, who knows how long it is?
12:46<Snail>planetmaker: not really
12:47<frosch123>time is at least something you can measure
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12:47<Snail>because an engine could stay idle at a signal, therefore not using up fuel. So “days” since last service wouldn’t work
12:47<Snail>it’s “distance” (= tiles traveled) that matters
12:48<frosch123>maybe, but neither humans nor ais would figure it out
12:48<Snail>humans would… why not?
12:48<Snail>you build the line, so you can see how long it is
12:48<@planetmaker>no way
12:48<frosch123>yeah, that only works on very flat maps with straight lines
12:48<@planetmaker>how do I know how long the windy road accross the mountain is?
12:48<andythenorth>snail, wondering if you can get same result with reliability?
12:48<andythenorth>planetmaker: you can guess at that by eye, tbh
12:48<@Alberth>Snail: how long is this track? http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/long_way_up.png
12:49<@planetmaker>for a curvy irregular path which I can't see at once? Hardly
12:49<andythenorth>it’s longer than 32 tiles
12:49<Snail>planetmaker: this would work only to differentiate “urban” from “not urban” traits
12:49<Snail>of course it depends on how you use this variable
12:49<andythenorth>you wouldn’t use these engines for > 16 tiles or so
12:50<andythenorth>can you just make them viciously unreliable instead?
12:50<andythenorth>gets same result
12:50<Snail>andythenorth: no, because reliability isn’t set back up to max when visiting stations
12:51<Snail>while an engine could refill there (provided a water tower is there, but let’s assume every station has got one)
12:51<andythenorth>ah so it’s station based
12:51<andythenorth>not depot based
12:51<Snail>station and depot
12:51<@planetmaker>upping reliability at stations, too, is something I'd be much more in favour of
12:52<@planetmaker>also even without, just use proper orders to service your trains
12:52<Snail>in my set, I could differentiate trains with a range of, say, <20 tiles (small tank engines), <200 tiles (tender steamers) and unlimited (electrics)
12:52<@planetmaker>20 tiles?!
12:52<Snail>yes, for urban trains
12:52<Snail>maybe not 20, say 40. I’d have to balance it out. But it would be my jon
12:52<Snail>*job
12:53<Snail>I’d just like to be given this possibility.. if it’s not too hard to program
12:54<andythenorth>shame there’s no vehicle-local storage
12:54<@planetmaker>tbh, still not a feature I'd like to see. It's cryptic to comprehend. Train paths are not predictable when there's several options
12:54<andythenorth>you could just write it yourself
12:54<andythenorth>just check speed each time cb runs, and incrememnt a counter
12:55<@planetmaker>even the range property for planes works badly
12:56<@planetmaker>and there the distance is easy in comparison
12:56<andythenorth>I find it kind of pointless
12:56<andythenorth>just means building another airport
12:56<andythenorth>it’s as annoying as pathfinding range on ships, which is at least a computational issue
12:56<@planetmaker>yeah. And adding 100s of go via stations
12:56<Snail>planetmaker: again, for trains the distance would work dividing the engines in two, such as “short distance” vs. “any distance”
12:57<andythenorth>Snail: what else could solve this for you? o-O
12:57<Snail>of course I wouldn’t program it to force the player to count the tiles...
12:57<@planetmaker>what's distance?
12:57<andythenorth>Snail: are you using the animation frame?
12:57<Snail>andythenorth: I’ve thought about it… I think this is the best solution
12:57<Snail>andythenorth: yes
12:57<andythenorth>nvm
12:57<andythenorth>you could have used it as a counter
12:57<Snail>I mean my steamers are animated. Why?
12:58<@planetmaker>how does it behave if I build a straight track, send the train to go and then cut that and send it on a detour of 8k tiles length?
12:58<frosch123>andythenorth: you do to much industries
12:58<andythenorth>I do?
12:58<andythenorth>:P
12:58<@planetmaker>what if the shortest route is one-way only?
12:58<@planetmaker>and I just flip the signal?
12:58<andythenorth>Snail: would you consider re-coding your set so each ‘vehicle’ is made up of multiple parts, some invisible
12:58<andythenorth>?
12:58<Snail>planetmaker: then you would need to use an engine with a longer “range”. Simple as that
12:59<@planetmaker>Snail, but it already started. now it's on the way, I modify the path. what now?
12:59<Snail>andythenorth: some of my vehicles are already like that
12:59<@Alberth>planetmaker: it gets tricky only when a train causes such detours
12:59<andythenorth>do vehicles have an animation ‘frame’?
12:59<@planetmaker>Alberth, easy to devise such setup :)
12:59<@planetmaker>or conditional orders
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12:59<@planetmaker>if load% > 0 goto short else goto 10k tiles
12:59<Snail>planetmaker: then, since you modified the track, your choice of engine could have been made better...
13:00*andythenorth is wondering if invisible vehicles can be used as storage
13:00<Snail>because in such a context, short-range trains are for short lines only, which shouldn’t be lengthened. If your service might include detours, it’d be safer to buy the longer-range engine
13:01<andythenorth>hmm
13:01<andythenorth>there’s never any profit in arguing with a newgrf author who has a fixed idea :)
13:01<Snail>:D
13:01<andythenorth>speaking from experience :P
13:02<burty>I'm trying to run the ServerGS that I downloaded from the in game content download... I just keep getting "Your script made an eror: the index WID_GS_RESTRICT_LABEL does not exist". I'll post on the forum thread but I was hoping that someone might be able to give me a quicker response here :)
13:02<Snail>well, I thought about this before. The reason why I’m proposing it, is because I couldn’t find any workaround
13:02<Snail>otherwise I wouldn’t be bothering you ;)
13:02<@planetmaker>I see really no game play benefit at all
13:02<andythenorth>planetmaker: that’s not the purpose of most newgrfs ;)
13:03<andythenorth>you’re making an invalid assumption
13:03<andythenorth>most newgrfs benefit the author
13:03*andythenorth looks in the extended vars
13:04<Snail>not just the author, but even some players who might think like him
13:04<@planetmaker>length restriction itself can be a tool to achieve something. But if the idea is to have long distance trains vs. short distance trains and make it matter, then e.g. load speed vs. driving speed already help nicely to make a difference
13:04<Snail>planetmaker: load speed only matters for wagons or railcars, not locomotives
13:05<Snail>driving speed is more of a thing to differentiate freight vs. pax, and generally increases with time
13:05<andythenorth>we mostly use manhattan distance between stations?
13:05<andythenorth>we don’t pathfind for tile count?
13:05<@Alberth>burty: that label got deleted in r26320
13:05<andythenorth>this could be a thing when setting orders, but it would have to be manhattan I would imagine
13:06<andythenorth>and moving the station sign (for example) would be a problem
13:06<@Alberth>burty: about 2 months ago
13:06<Snail>andythenorth: why would moving the station sign be a problem?
13:06<@planetmaker>probably andythenorth is right though. I simply should not argue against it. No point :P
13:07<andythenorth>planetmaker: reality is, someone will patch it, or someone won’t
13:07<andythenorth>the amount of stuff that just turns up is quite high
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13:07<andythenorth>the amount of stuff that goes in after long long discussion is relatively low
13:07<@planetmaker>station sign determines distance between stations, Snail
13:07<andythenorth>at least, low compared to amount of discussing :P
13:07<Snail>oh, so that would be a problem for AI?
13:08<andythenorth>and if this was a restriction on orders
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13:08<Snail>andythenorth: I see. Well, I wasn’t imaging it as a restriction on orders
13:08<Snail>I don’t know if that would work well
13:08<@planetmaker>it's a severe restriction
13:08<@planetmaker>AIs fail already on plane orders when they're restricted in range
13:08<Snail>yes, so I was thinking about just adding this “tiles traveled” variable, and nothing else
13:08<andythenorth>but at least it would be consistent, if done as range
13:09<andythenorth>not Yet Another Mechanic
13:09<Snail>then, it would be my job, as a newgrf developer, to code certain trains in such a way that they would travel slower when this new “tiles traveled” variable is greater than X
13:09*andythenorth can’t see anything useful in extended vars
13:09<Snail>and to clearly document this in the purchase list
13:09<@planetmaker>how do AIs read purchase list?
13:09<Snail>I agree that restricting the orders would be too complex and “dangerous"
13:10<burty>Alberth: oh right. I'll have to try the one thats on the thread then :)
13:10<@Alberth>burty: it got replaced by WID_GS_RESTRICT_CATEGORY and WID_GS_RESTRICT_TYPE
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13:11<Snail>planetmaker: AIs could perhaps read this “X” (maximum distance) for each train and then only use an engine if the distance between the stations it will serve is greater than “X”?
13:11<@Alberth>although I fail somewhat in understanding what a GS needs with the advanced settings window :)
13:11<@planetmaker>Alberth, it's needed e.g. for tutoriaGS
13:12<@Alberth>a ServerGS? :)
13:12<andythenorth>what’s the max value of motion counter var?
13:12<@planetmaker>very big. but NML's might be broken
13:13<@planetmaker>Alberth, hm... ServerGS probably not :)
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13:13<andythenorth>Snail: if the motion counter is big enough, and your distance is short enough, that might work
13:13<Snail>planetmaker: not a problem for me, I don’t use NML
13:14<Snail>andythenorth: how would it work?
13:16<@planetmaker>I was also talking to andy...
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26459 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2014-04-12 17:45:43 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan - 2 changes by juanjo
13:45<@DorpsGek>simplified_chinese - 10 changes by siu238X, xiangyigao
13:45<@DorpsGek>traditional_chinese - 1 changes by siu238X
13:45<@DorpsGek>finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
13:46<@DorpsGek>russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
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14:22<andythenorth>Snail: motion counter is a 32 bit value http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VariationalAction2/Vehicles#Motion_counter_.2846.29
14:23<andythenorth>if I’ve understood correctly that could be used to count tile motion
14:24<andythenorth>hmm it’s not reset when visiting depot probably
14:26<frosch123>you cannot change power or something on open track anyway
14:26<frosch123>it will desync
14:26<frosch123>you cannot change cached values at random times
14:26<Snail>frosch123: but for instance, I can change TE upon entering a track of a different railtype
14:26<frosch123>so, changing stats fails anyway, no matter what var
14:26<Snail>and speed as well...
14:27<frosch123>yes, track change updates the cache
14:27<frosch123>but not normal driving
14:27<Snail>I see… not even entering a new tile?
14:27<@planetmaker>that would halt OpenTTD to a crawl
14:28<@planetmaker>frosch123, thinking of something like http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/index.php?source=tmp.diff for map cache?
14:28<@planetmaker>(No usage yet made of it in the patch)
14:29<frosch123>"bits 0...9" ?
14:29<@planetmaker>max. value we can get from the function as-is-implemented is 0x200
14:30<frosch123>is there a need to bit stuff that in the first place?
14:30<frosch123>it's not going to the savegame
14:30<@peter1138>Don't forget to add a few uint32s to store track usage counters...
14:31<@planetmaker>no. But it's an uint16 and we could add other stuff in the remaining bits? Or just leaving them blank?
14:31<@planetmaker>would be waste of 6bits per tile
14:31<frosch123>don't safe space if there is no need to :)
14:31<frosch123>there is no reason for saving space here
14:31<frosch123>that was the point :p
14:31<@peter1138>Why do you need to cache water distance again?
14:32<@planetmaker>even not when considering speed?
14:32<frosch123>anyway, do you want to use ReInitWaterDistanceCache in some other module?
14:32<@planetmaker>peter1138, better shipping lanes
14:32<frosch123>else it could be static
14:32<frosch123>or if you like more c++, those functions could be static members of TileCache
14:32<@planetmaker>for now it can be static, yes. I'm not sure whether it needs to be called for large-scale landscaping
14:32<@peter1138>Not using water class for that?
14:33<frosch123>water class is troublesome
14:33<frosch123>water class is very different from distance to coast
14:33<@planetmaker>that's more a pain.
14:33<@planetmaker>I tried that first, peter1138 and it gets very ugly
14:33<frosch123>planetmaker: i guess static member functions would look fance, e.g. TileCache::UpdateWaterDistance
14:33<@planetmaker>the gain is also much more limited than just caching coastal distance
14:34<@planetmaker>aye, I guess I could go that way, yes
14:34<@peter1138>How often do you need the coastal distance?
14:35<frosch123>when using the pathfinder all the time
14:35<@planetmaker>peter1138, the idea is to differ between coastal vessels and trans-ocean vessels
14:35<@planetmaker>and then the PF...
14:36<@peter1138>Seems like a shed load of effort for a feature nobody is going to use.
14:37<Snail>“the idea is to differ between coastal vessels and trans-ocean vessels”
14:37<@peter1138>BAD FEATURE or something heh
14:37<@planetmaker>BAD indeed
14:37<Snail>how different is it from differ between short-distance tank steamers and long-distance tender steamers? :p
14:37<@planetmaker>very
14:37<@planetmaker>it's the track type, Snail
14:37<Snail>ok, tell me how :)
14:38<@planetmaker>and railtypes are there at your disposal :)
14:38<Snail>you mean we have different “water types"?
14:38<andythenorth>there’s an existing distinction via canal / sea speed fraction
14:38<@planetmaker>we do
14:38<andythenorth>but it’s of limited use
14:38<Snail>meaning canal vs. sea?
14:38<@peter1138>WaterClassses are roughly the water equivalent of RailTypes, so...
14:39<andythenorth>ships can set different speeds for canal (& river) or sea
14:39<frosch123>planetmaker: on second though, maybe storing the complete distance is a bit too much; limiting it to storing distances < 64 or something would allow incremental updates
14:39<@planetmaker>I won't argue that the thing, if finished, is of marginal gain. But it's fun to do :)
14:39<frosch123>peter1138: water classes are fixed on map construction
14:39<NGC3982>Evening.
14:39<andythenorth>I think the canal / sea speed fraction is a BAD FEATURE
14:39<andythenorth>but as it exists, I feel obliged to use it
14:39<frosch123>they are stored in industry tiles, exposed to newgrf and whatever
14:39<@planetmaker>that was my first thought, too, frosch123. I even thought of like 16 tiles
14:39<NGC3982>Sea speed fraction?
14:39<andythenorth>how is this news to everyone? :P
14:39<frosch123>you cannot just add a 5th one, not would it solve the problem here
14:40<frosch123>planetmaker: 16 is also fine
14:40<@planetmaker>frosch123, it would. If they dynamically changed or got re-computed
14:40<@planetmaker>but that's way more messy... they're used in many, many places :)
14:40<@peter1138>Whatever happened to more height levels?
14:40<@peter1138>(Can you guess where I'm going?)
14:41<@planetmaker>yes, I do. I quoted that option earlier today :P
14:41<@planetmaker>(more height levels with neg. height or offset)
14:41<frosch123>height levels were not updated for long
14:41<frosch123>multiple sea level never made it anywhere
14:41<@peter1138>Was a long time ago. Was nice :p
14:42<@planetmaker>peter1138, but that's not an exclusive thing, can even be complementary
14:42<@planetmaker>the cache is transient. Height levels are part of map
14:42-!-ABCRic [~ABCRic@a79-168-244-115.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Quit: Herp derp]
14:42<andythenorth>I just want to say now...
14:42<@peter1138>TMWFTLB? :D
14:42<@planetmaker>so if there's height levels which define deep sea... fine. For shipping purposes they then can take over coastal distance
14:42<andythenorth>I can fix the gameplay issue in Squid without needing the whole map rewritten…
14:42<@peter1138>Andy will use the feature, but never release anything with it :D
14:43<frosch123>i doubt height levels for sea will ever happen :p
14:43<andythenorth>peter1138: I refer you to the bundle server :P
14:43<frosch123>the patch from r10k or something shows issues which will hardly get solved
14:43<@planetmaker>frosch123, *if* we get MHL, then one level for deep/shallow sea surely would be possible :)
14:43<andythenorth>if you’re having fun with this carry on
14:43<frosch123>nope, that's my point
14:43<andythenorth>otherwise I just take the speed penalty off the river boats when at sea
14:44<frosch123>multiple level flooding is silly/broken at best
14:44<andythenorth>problem solved
14:44<@planetmaker>andythenorth, I'm (currently) not rewriting the map. I'm just adding caching for frequently-used values. And this is one way it can be used
14:44<frosch123>there were patches to raise the sea level in the past
14:44<andythenorth>planetmaker: :)
14:45<andythenorth>what counts as ‘release’ these days anyway?
14:45<andythenorth>bundles? bananas? alpha in forums?
14:45<andythenorth>v1.0?
14:46<@planetmaker>well, release fish2/squid anyway :)
14:46<@planetmaker>make a new release if and when I finish this toy :P
14:47<andythenorth>the only thing blocking Squid are some ugly ships
14:47<andythenorth>I could turn them off
14:47<@planetmaker>draw some flowers on them, then they're beautiful. Hippy-class steamer ferry
14:49<@planetmaker>brb
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14:59<andythenorth>Snail: if you could find some storage, you could use the motion counter and 80+ var 16 (station index) http://marcin.ttdpatch.net/sv1codec/TTD-locations.html
14:59<andythenorth>but I don’t know if anyone has found a way to do storage on a vehicle
14:59<Snail>hmm
14:59<Snail>I’ll try to see if I can do it
15:00<Snail>but I guess the problem here is caching, since I can’t change a vehicle’s top speed while it’s in motion
15:00<Snail>and CB32 doesn’t help either
15:00<andythenorth>I wonder if there are cb36 props that you could abuse on invisible vehicles
15:00<andythenorth>for storage
15:00<andythenorth>they only change occasionally
15:00<frosch123>there is no storage for vehicles
15:01<frosch123>stuff only changes triggered by the player
15:01<andythenorth>frosch123: you could set a property and then later read it?
15:01<andythenorth>cb36, change at station
15:01<andythenorth>never tried
15:01<andythenorth>would have to be on invisible vehicle
15:01<frosch123>there is no storage :)
15:01<frosch123>the best you can get is a desync
15:02<frosch123>by abusing caches
15:02<andythenorth>so I couldn’t use, for example, TE value as storage?
15:03<andythenorth>supposed to be 0 for articulated parts, so no dice
15:03<andythenorth>use the offset values on visual effect?
15:05<frosch123>when joining a game everything is reset
15:05<andythenorth>ah
15:05<frosch123>so everything that you cannot tell from the vehicles being on the track is lost
15:05<frosch123>and any differences will result in a desync
15:05<andythenorth>Snail: “limitations are good” ?
15:05<andythenorth>:P
15:06<Snail>well, limitations that let the player explore the set in its entirety are good IMO :p
15:07<Snail>otherwise you’d always go for the “fastest, most powerful” engine :)
15:07<Snail>but then again, some people will say my set will be full of BAD FEATURES. Oh well
15:09<andythenorth>can’t be helped
15:12<Snail>:)
15:21<@planetmaker>V453000's thread should have been titled "what are bad features if you want to play a transportation game". The bad features are not bad if you want to build a simulation game.
15:23<andythenorth>v is a diplomatist
15:25<@planetmaker>that's putting it diplomatic :P
15:25<@planetmaker>http://www.cheapass.com/node/66
15:25*andythenorth is also a diplomatist
15:25<andythenorth>famously
15:27<Phreeze>lol
15:27<frosch123>i such cases i am always disappointed that dorpsgek has no full shell syntax
15:27<frosch123>i would like to visualise diplomacy using "users | xargs kick"
15:29<@planetmaker>:)
15:42<LordAro>frosch123, patch it :p
15:43<Phreeze>how do you all sort your trains in newgrfs ? i'm not sure if i should sort by engine, then name
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15:43<Phreeze>or just date of appearance
15:44<frosch123>sort them by type of usage
15:45<@planetmaker>yup. Type of usage is best. That cannot be done by filter
15:46<@planetmaker>date, power, speed,... all possible anyway
15:46<@planetmaker>destroys my usual behaviour though to look at the bottom of the list after lengthy scrolling ;)
15:46<Phreeze>type of usage -> freight or passenger ?
15:47<@planetmaker>whatever usage groups you have
15:47<frosch123>pax/freight, strong/fast, local/distance
15:47<@planetmaker>express pax, local pax, light fright, heavy fright... dunno :)
15:47<Phreeze>there isn't any more in OTTD^^
15:47<Phreeze>ah k yeah
15:47<@planetmaker>oh, there definitely is. Depends on how you design your stats
15:48<Taede>just look at nuts, there's a half a dozen classes just for rail
15:48<@planetmaker>I just wanted to suggest a conversation with Mr Bad Features ;)
15:49<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nuts lists all classes, though
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15:52<Phreeze>wetrail wtf
15:52<Phreeze>i should try that nuts grf once xD
15:53<Taede>yeah, if you include the nuttier classes, you get over a dozen i think
15:53<frosch123>only 11
15:54<Phreeze>i dont have as much engines
15:54<frosch123>and the 11th class is no class, but just the vehicles which fit no other class
15:54<@planetmaker>wetrail is no crazier than pipeline or powerline rail ;)
15:54<Taede>still a lot
15:54<@Alberth>the various PURR tracks add up quickly
15:55<Phreeze>22 from 1954+
15:55<Phreeze>i havent started to draw steamers
15:55<Phreeze>it's a pita ^^
15:55<@Alberth>you have many rail types available, all the time
15:56<frosch123>well, if you have a realism-based set, you will likely have "distant pax", "local pax", "light freight", "heavy freight", "mountainous freight"
15:56<frosch123>depending on origin, maybe less freight classes and more diverse local pax
15:56<Phreeze>ah i see now that i can give the trains an ID by inclkuding an int in FEAT_Trains function
15:57<frosch123>you should give them an id anyway
15:57<Phreeze>i just left it away, it will then take the order as i coded them
15:57<frosch123>the id is what matters for savegame compatibilty when updating your set
15:57<Phreeze>oh ok
15:57<Phreeze>can i start at 1000 ?
15:57<@planetmaker>sure
15:57<frosch123>if you don't give an id, you break stuff when reording your code :)
15:57<Phreeze>i think if i take 20 or so, it may mess up with original trains
15:58<@planetmaker>but the actual ID does not matter at all. Just do it sequentially, starting at 1
15:58<Phreeze>still so much to learn and discover..
15:58<@planetmaker>It also doesn't matter for sorting. You can define sorting separately
15:58<andythenorth>planetmaker: good article
15:58<@planetmaker>it's just a number important for savegame compatibility. Which doesn't matter for anyone except those who develop it ;)
15:59*andythenorth goes in 10s
15:59<andythenorth>:p
15:59<andythenorth>for articulated parts reasons
16:00<andythenorth>but don’t pay attention to what I do
16:00<frosch123>everyone should learn some "traditional basic", just to learn about how to deal with numbers :)
16:01<andythenorth>I learnt Basic
16:01<andythenorth>dunno if it had types
16:01<@planetmaker>not sure anymore either.
16:01<@planetmaker>10: DIM A 30
16:01<@planetmaker>20: A = "blah blah"
16:01<andythenorth>ha, I’d forgotten DIM
16:01<frosch123>10 $andy = $input
16:01<frosch123>planetmaker: i don't think there were colons
16:01<andythenorth>I just made swearwords in random color
16:02<andythenorth>over and over again
16:02<andythenorth>no colons
16:02<@planetmaker>I totally forgot the syntax
16:02<andythenorth>I have BBC Emulator here
16:02<andythenorth>there is BeebEm for OS X
16:02<@planetmaker>it's like 20+ years ago I wrote GW basic...
16:02<andythenorth>oh you probably never had BBC micro computers outside of UK :P
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16:03<Phreeze>thats old
16:04<frosch123>oh, it's "andy$", not "$andy"
16:04<Phreeze>i only started with some 386 i think
16:04<Phreeze>dont know if i touched a 286 before
16:04<Phreeze>the 386 had 25mhz and a 14 inch scren, vga !
16:05<frosch123>planetmaker: 24 for me :p
16:06<frosch123>Phreeze: at least you know the times with a "turbo button" :)
16:06<andythenorth>did that turn on the maths co-processor?
16:06<andythenorth>why was it ever turned off?
16:06<@Alberth>andythenorth: I had one
16:06<Phreeze>yeah, but "turbo" was always on
16:06<andythenorth>some stuff crashed?
16:06<frosch123>though it was actually a turbo switch at the back(!) of the 8088 i had
16:06<Phreeze>in fact it was more a "unpress to slow down"
16:07<frosch123>andythenorth: it was a hardware daylength patch
16:07<Phreeze>486 dx 50 went down to 25 by unpressing
16:07<Phreeze>i had to turn it off for 1 game
16:07<andythenorth>2Mhz 6502 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Micro
16:07<Pinkbeast>We had 486/66s that went down to 8 with turbo off, supplied with half of them wired up the wrong way round, endless comedy
16:07<andythenorth>32KB
16:08<Pinkbeast>At least you got to play with most of that 32K in MODE 7 :-)
16:08*andythenorth is actually old
16:08<@Alberth>yep, unless you used mode 0, which ate 20KB
16:09*Pinkbeast is going to strongly dispute the idea that having used the Beeb makes you actually old, albeit with a transparently self-serving motive
16:09<@planetmaker>we're playing the MHz downscale game? I can only offer 10 MHz minimum for my first computer, a 286
16:09<Phreeze>mode7, for SNES ;)
16:09<@planetmaker>with turbo key which toggled it to 12 MHz. I really wondered what people thought they were useful for
16:09<Pinkbeast>Phreeze: It's also the teletext mode for the Beeb - no graphics, just words and colours, but only 1K. Text adventures used it.
16:09<@planetmaker>turbo was indeed always on
16:10<frosch123>we should tell people who want a daylength patch to get a computer with turbo switch instead
16:10<@planetmaker>hahaha :)
16:10<Phreeze>in fact, the turbo was a BAD FEATURE
16:10<Phreeze>we can close the topic now xD
16:10<frosch123>or when their 4kx4k map runs slow: press the turbo button on the back of your prc
16:10<frosch123>-r
16:10<@planetmaker>that's good advice
16:10<@planetmaker>if it's not there, it's inside the chassais
16:11<Phreeze>it's funny how the turbo is used nowadays
16:11<Pinkbeast>Even on a 486/66 some DOS games ran a bit stupidly fast
16:11<Phreeze>even laptops overclock themselves.i dont like it
16:11<Phreeze>some years back, AMD build processors with locked multipliers so you couldnt overclock them...
16:12<Phreeze>(only with silver-compound or a pencil)
16:13<@planetmaker>well, i7 also auto-overclocks itself on one core, if the rest is idel
16:13<@planetmaker>*idle
16:13<@planetmaker>but that's not a button I can press
16:13<Phreeze>yeah, not as cool
16:14<Phreeze>i always like the digital number on the PC
16:14<Phreeze>showing the mhz :)
16:14<Phreeze>later i build a LCD Panel for that ;)
16:14<frosch123>haha, the digital display with the old power button was silly actually
16:15<@peter1138>MODE 7
16:15<frosch123>it looked as if the computer really displayed something
16:15<frosch123>but it was just hard wired what bits to light when the button was down or up
16:15<Phreeze>shhhhht
16:15<Phreeze>i changed the turbo off LEDs later ;)
16:15<Phreeze>was 25, i modded to 75
16:16<Phreeze>so it went from 50 (turbo on) to 75 (tubo off)
16:16<Phreeze>friends were just WOOOOOWing :D
16:16<frosch123>:p
16:16<frosch123>that sounds like some serious computer skills
16:16<Phreeze>HAX
16:17<frosch123>how to make your computer run faster
16:17<frosch123>bridge these two pins on the lcd panel
16:17<Phreeze>*look like it could run faster*
16:17<Phreeze>in fact, my pentium 60 board was awesome: a jumper set the mhz. i just put it to 75 :)
16:17<Phreeze>was 50 60 75 i guess, not sure what the lower number was
16:18<Phreeze>can someone explain me how Tractive effort is calculated by openttd? i didn't define it, but it shows up. Can i modify that manually too ?
16:19<@planetmaker>set the property
16:19<frosch123>in the grf you set the friction coefficient
16:20<frosch123>ottd computed the te by multiplying that with the weight
16:20<@planetmaker>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Vehicles has the actual explanation in the property description
16:23<Phreeze>hm i see i see
16:23<Phreeze>i think i'll live with the ottd calculated ones
16:26<andythenorth>they’re ‘correct'
16:26<andythenorth>I only change them to dibble specific vehicles for game balance
16:28<Phreeze>i'm just preparing tracks and vehicles for a screenshot of all the vehicles....
16:28<Phreeze>WHEN A UFO LANDS ON THEM
16:31<andythenorth>bye
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16:31<frosch123>Phreeze: photo bombing :)
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16:47<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/index.php?source=tmp.diff <-- you meant more to go this way, frosch123 ?
16:55<@Alberth>void ReInitAllMapCaches() needs a doxygen comment
16:55<@Alberth>please add a "." at the end of evry sentence in the docs
16:56<@planetmaker>true, thank you :)
16:56<@Alberth>it is allowed to have single line comments if you like /** ... */
16:58<@Alberth>whether the patch is a good direction, is a question I cannot answer :)
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17:01<@planetmaker>well, I probably should introduce caching first for something we already need
17:01<@planetmaker>like town distance or so
17:02<frosch123>planetmaker: yeah, but as "static" members
17:03<frosch123>they do not use "this", but affect all
17:03<frosch123>you also do not need the c-function then
17:04<@planetmaker>you mean the ReInitAllMapCaches() is not needed then?
17:04<frosch123>yes
17:05<frosch123>you can directly call TileCache::ReInitAll() then
17:05<frosch123>it uses TileCache as namespace more or less
17:06<@planetmaker>aye
17:15<Phreeze>another ufo now lol
17:15<Phreeze>was just letting the game run
17:15<frosch123>it lands on track, if you have only few track pieces, it will land there :)
17:16<Phreeze>but every few years ?
17:16<Phreeze>hey, tracks with an engine on it, are not destroyed after the xcom avenger comes ;)
17:17<frosch123>well, your trains also stop in front of the ufo, instead of running into it
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17:22<Phreeze>they are stopped ^^
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17:38*peter1138 accidentally makes this shit more complex :(
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17:41<Phreeze>damn winrar cant create TARs
17:42<Phreeze>any way to create a tar with windows without installing additional zippers ?
17:42<Taede>i use 7zip for all my compression needs
17:42<frosch123>why would you want to create a tar in the first place?
17:42<Taede>tar is just storing info, no compression though
17:43<Phreeze>7zip is like the best, but the interface is so fugly, that i prefer not to use it ^^
17:43<Phreeze>i KNOW what a tar is..
17:43<Phreeze>don't the newgrfs should be in a TAR ?
17:43<frosch123>bananas also takes zip if you mean that
17:43<Phreeze>ah ok ;)
17:44<frosch123>it processes them into tars after validating the content
17:44<Phreeze>i just updated my old lunames grf...
17:47<frosch123>why does winrar still exist?
17:48<Phreeze>cause it's better than winzip
17:49<Phreeze>and has a modern looking UI
17:50<+glx>but 7zip is free
17:51<Phreeze>free is relative on the webz ;)
17:54<@planetmaker>frosch123, thinking of caching of the coastal distance. Wondering what update policy should be done
17:54<@planetmaker>should it only be updated when actually queried. Keeping a list which says which values are current
17:55<@planetmaker>or always keep the cache list up to date?
17:55<frosch123>i believe the most efficient way (though maybe not the easiest), is to mark an area in the cache as invalid when clearing water or when flooding
17:55<frosch123>and the recompute the value when accessing
17:56<frosch123>though you can recompute multiple tiles better than single ones
17:56<@planetmaker>ok, that was my thought, too.
17:56<@planetmaker>the 'not all tiles always but only when needed'
17:56<@planetmaker>could re-compute an area then
17:58<frosch123>but well, as usual: 1. make it work, 2. make it good, 3. make it fast :)
17:58<@planetmaker>:D
17:59<frosch123>"preempty opimisation is the root of all evil"
17:59<frosch123>(i would address them all to d.e.knuth, but i have actually no idea)
17:59<frosch123>s/preempty/pre-emptive/
18:00<@planetmaker>hm, yeah :)
18:00<@planetmaker>could be
18:01<@planetmaker>wiki says you're right ;)
18:01<@planetmaker> Knuth, Donald (December 1974). "Structured Programming with go to Statements". ACM Journal Computing Surveys 6 (4): 268. CiteSeerX: 10.1.1.103.6084.
18:03<frosch123>oh, it's "premature", not "preemptive" :)
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18:07<Phreeze>released my CFL Trains Set to bananas, feel free to test and punish me with devastating comments ;)
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18:12<Phreeze>afk bed ;)
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18:31<@planetmaker>he... "File too big (~104K)" from hgview for town_cmd.cpp :P
18:35<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/index.php?source=tmp.diff - a clear case of caching without caching ;)
18:35<@planetmaker>bed time now, though. Good night.
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18:47<LordAro>how regularly is git.openttd.org updated? it seems to be behind...
18:47<LordAro>only by 11-28 hours though
18:49<@peter1138>Seems up to date for me.
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18:51<LordAro>it's weird, the gitweb seems to be updated, but pulling it results in r26455
18:51<@peter1138>(svn r26459) -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:53<LordAro> (svn r26455) -Change: Prompt for confirmation when deleting a vehicle group.
18:55*LordAro tries a new checkout
18:57<LordAro>that's better
18:57<LordAro>weird
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19:32<Wolf01>'night all
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