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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-04-13

---Logopened Sun Apr 13 00:00:20 2014
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01:53-!-Eearslya [~meow@subsonic.dragonstripes.net] has joined #openttd
01:54<Eearslya>Two part question; Can a single station only have one type of resource in it? If so, can I place two stations adjacent without connecting them as one?
01:54<Eearslya>Train stations, to clarify.
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02:01<Supercheese>You can have two adjacent stations that are logically separate (i.e. different station signs)
02:01<Supercheese>Hold ctrl while building and select separate station
02:06<Hazzard>Stations can hold multiple types of resources at once
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02:10<Eearslya>Well then I'm confused as to why this iron ore mine isn't giving up its ore D:
02:11<@planetmaker>moin
02:12<@planetmaker>Eearslya: does the wagon transport the wrong cargo?
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02:13<@planetmaker>ho andythenorth^Wearly
02:14<andythenorth>quite late :P
02:14<andythenorth>usually I’m up at 5.30
02:14<@planetmaker>kids are like that, I always hear ;)
02:14<@planetmaker>I find 8am very early for Sundays. 7 even worse :)
02:16<Eearslya>Ahhhh I didn't realize I had to refit it...
02:16-!-tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-14-253.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd
02:16<rubidium>well... my circadian rhythm wakes me up every day around the same time (07:00)
02:20<@planetmaker>:) not the worst thing (nor time)
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02:33<andythenorth>hmm
02:33<andythenorth>someone is wrong on the internet....
02:33<Supercheese>zounds
02:35<@planetmaker>wrong on the internet? Impossible!
02:35<andythenorth>I don’t know how many times I can be arsed to correct this GPL crap
02:35<andythenorth>it’s only a game
02:35<andythenorth>do we really care about the legality of newgrfs?
02:36<Supercheese>Ehh, seemingly only for flagrant breaches of conduct
02:36<Supercheese>such as posting binaries without license on the official forums
02:36<andythenorth>kamnet is just talking shit here http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1114258#p1114258
02:36<andythenorth>you don’t get to pick and choose bits of a license as you see fit
02:36-!-Alberth [~hat@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd
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02:36<Supercheese>although that's not newgrf
02:36<@Alberth>moin
02:36<andythenorth>moin Alberth
02:37<@planetmaker>hi Alberth
02:37<@planetmaker>andythenorth, I fear, it should be clarified there. Will you?
02:37<andythenorth>I don’t want to derail Phreeze’s thread :(
02:37<andythenorth>but it’s just plain wrong
02:37<andythenorth>Kamnet always _sounds_ so authoritative
02:37<andythenorth>but is seriously an armchair expert
02:38<andythenorth>Phreeze: going to derail your thread, sorry
02:38<@planetmaker>but then, not sure it's worth the effort here
02:39<@planetmaker>is cc-by-sa incompatible with gpl?
02:39<andythenorth>absolutely 100%
02:40<andythenorth>on both sides (I think)
02:40<rubidium>-nc definitely is incompatible with GPL
02:41-!-Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
02:41<andythenorth>https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#ccbysa
02:43<@planetmaker>-nc and -nd undoubtly are incompatible for sure
02:45<@planetmaker>andythenorth, not worth. it's gplv2 on bananas ;)
02:47<@planetmaker>https://rhodecode.openttdcoop.org/pota-ghat/files/6d42aae1fb1f94ab4c14d02cf953b447174a5030/docs/license.txt <-- Am I at fault? :)
02:47<Phreeze>just woke up, and again a license discussion ^^
02:47<@planetmaker>moin :)
02:48<andythenorth>planetmaker: dual-license?
02:48<Phreeze>i think some newgrfs are dual license
02:48<andythenorth>you’re not incorporating material solely licensed under one license into a project with incompatible licensing
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02:48<Phreeze>from what i've reda in their readmes at least ;)
02:49<andythenorth>dual licensing is *always* valid if you are are the copyright holder of the licensed work
02:49<@planetmaker>andythenorth, not exactly dual-licensed. The 32bpp there are only cc-by-sa
02:49<@planetmaker>there=with pota-ghat
02:49<andythenorth>the problems only kick in for stuff you’re not the copyright holder on
02:49-!-Flygon [~Flygon@147.18.214.218.sta.commander.net.au] has joined #openttd
02:49<@planetmaker>and I can't change the cc-by-sa for the textures. they're not mine.
02:50<@planetmaker>But found in the same license bundling in its original form
02:50<Phreeze>imo the SA says: credit that guy for exactly his parts
02:51<@planetmaker>that's the BY part. SA means share the stuff under the same conditions you got it
02:51<Phreeze>i think it's within the license, if you just credit all theguys
02:51<Phreeze>yeah, BY , never know what part ^^
02:51<andythenorth>planetmaker: you’d have to do wavey-hands about the texturs being content, not part of the program
02:51<@planetmaker>there's grfstrip to get rid of the 32bpp here, too ;)
02:52<@planetmaker>Phreeze, anyhow, I think that there's not a problem for you but only in how kamnet understands licenses :)
02:53<@planetmaker>now back to more productive stuff....
02:53<andythenorth>Phreeze: yes the issue was some 100% incorrect advice
02:53<andythenorth>licenses = boring :(
02:53<@planetmaker>100% boring
02:53<Phreeze>yeah...should have defines that all newgrfs must be gpl ;)
02:54<Phreeze>*defined
02:54<@planetmaker>yes
02:54<Phreeze>afk feeding dog and taking a shower...damn it's before 9h00...
02:54<Phreeze>(and is still dont get it, why my PC woke up from sleep at 4h27 or so)
02:56<andythenorth>for the record :|
02:57<andythenorth>licensing isn’t particularly interesting, and it will never come to a court
02:57<andythenorth>but when people do it wrong, it causes boring forum drama
02:57<andythenorth>‘artists’ get annoyed, other people issue cease-and-desist on our ISPs etc
02:57<Supercheese>license disputes are blergh
02:58<Phreeze>i think, ottd artists want others use their grf
02:58<Phreeze>but some want credit
02:58<andythenorth>they would be a non-issue if fuckheads would stop giving bad advice
02:58<Phreeze>therefore a CCBYSA...they don't care or know or think about getting others into a dilemma ;)
02:59<Phreeze>nevertheless, I've redrawn those CCBYSA pixel by pixel anway
02:59<Phreeze>it's not that much effort with those small sprites ;)
02:59<Phreeze>(*redrawn the parts i wanted to use
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03:01<DanMacK>Hey hey
03:01<andythenorth>hey Dan9550
03:01<@Alberth>hi hi danmack
03:01<andythenorth>oops
03:01<Flygon>A rrelative who used to work at an ISP noted they got C&Ds daily from all sorts of companies (@ andythenorth)
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03:01<andythenorth>DanMacK :)
03:02<Flygon>The workers in the NOC would basically torrent everything they could
03:02<Flygon>It's baffling the ISP never got sued
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03:04<Phreeze>for those not familiar with this: C&D and NOC means WHAT ? :)
03:07<Supercheese>Cease & Desist, I presume
03:07<Supercheese>dunno about NOC
03:09<andythenorth>network operating centre or such
03:12<Dan9550>hello
03:12<Supercheese>My professor would be displeased; I've borrowed some translations from the Latin translation of Harry Potter
03:12<Supercheese>he never liked those books, for some reason
03:14<Supercheese>well, dormiturus sum, valete omnes
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03:20<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> v is a diplomatist <-- is that a person who hates diplomats?
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03:26<Phreeze>paypal is great
03:26<Phreeze>at least for donations and for the economy, not for my account ^^
03:27<Phreeze>i donated 3eur to wikipedia. If there wasn't that "click click done" method, e.g. a normal bank transfer, i'd be too lazy
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03:32<Eddi|zuHause><Phreeze> how do you all sort your trains in newgrfs ? i'm not sure if i should sort by engine, then name <-- https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/entry/scripts/helper.py (basically: cargo, traction type, intro date, original company, name))
03:33<Eddi|zuHause>name is like the least important to sort for
03:34<Eddi|zuHause>the "cargo" part is mostly for wagons
03:34<andythenorth>railytype, intro date,
03:34<andythenorth>except rail and elrail are same
03:35<andythenorth>just do what seems right and play test it tbh
03:35<andythenorth>there’s no golden rule
03:41<andythenorth>hmm
03:41<andythenorth>this is going to go badly
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03:50<DanMacK>??
03:50<@planetmaker>quite. I'll split that, andythenorth
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03:57<andythenorth>ta
03:58<Phreeze>hm i forogot to mention that the newgrf starts 1949 and that original trains are disabled. i should add a parameter for that
03:58<@planetmaker>no worries
04:02<Phreeze>are there bots that download Newgrf automatically ?
04:03<Phreeze>just seen that my old LUnames grf was downloaded nearly 41k .... can't imagine that people want luxembourgish town names ^^
04:05<@planetmaker>people want everything
04:12*LordAro appearo
04:12<Phreeze>oh a Lord appears
04:12<LordAro>bow before me, peasant
04:13<LordAro>:p
04:13<Phreeze>can someone tell me, why in my ingame bananas, i always have 2 versions of Av8 ?
04:13<Phreeze>in my content_download, i have 1.81 and 2.21. the 1.81 has a NEWER timestamp
04:14<Phreeze>same goes for basemod 3.2.1 which was "updated" yesterday, and i have basemod 4.0 from 2012
04:14<Phreeze>is it cause i use "older" versions in some savegame ?
04:15<LordAro>you downloaded the 1.81 after 2.21, as it was a dependency of a scenario or something
04:15<LordAro>i think
04:15<@Alberth>it may be because your openttd is too old?
04:15<Phreeze>1.4.0
04:15<Phreeze>i think it's cause of an older savegame
04:16<Phreeze>i just delete those, and start openttd and see what happens
04:16<Phreeze>OpenGFX_Industries-0.3.4.tar
04:16<Phreeze>OpenGFX_Industries-VERSION.tar
04:16<Phreeze>version ? :D
04:16<@Alberth>technically, you can have newer versions than 1.4.0, but it's unlikely
04:16<Eddi|zuHause>i think there's some old av8 addon set that has 1.81 as dependency
04:17<Eddi|zuHause>that's why it's also available
04:17<Phreeze>apache heliciopter perhaps, i got that one too
04:17*Phreeze wipes it
04:17<LordAro>why are you so concerned by it?
04:17<Eddi|zuHause>it has nothing to do with what you downloaded
04:17<Phreeze>i want to have it clean
04:18<@Alberth>ha ha :)
04:18<Phreeze>i want to select or deselt av8, not "err what's the latest av8 then...click click click ah that one"
04:18<@Alberth>it's an open source project, with distributed control. It's not ever going to be clean
04:24<LordAro>surely only the latest will be displayed in the 'select newgrf' list ?
04:25<@planetmaker>don't mention the $VERSION :P
04:25<Eearslya>Can I have a station be an intermediary for a resource? ie. Train picks up mail in city 1, drops it off at a station, and a road vehicle comes by to bring it the rest of the way to the city
04:26<@planetmaker>Eearslya, transfer orders are your friend. Also check the wiki for it
04:27<@planetmaker>Phreeze, I'm always amazed by the obsession of 'clean' folders people want. But gather zillions of unused mp3 or so which each is larger in size than the average grf
04:27<@planetmaker>worse gather unseend video files...
04:27<@planetmaker>*unwatched
04:28<@Alberth>Eearslya: http://wiki.openttd.org/Feeder_service
04:28<Phreeze>aaand found a bug ^^ a diesel that has a design date of 195
04:28<Phreeze> ;)
04:28<@Alberth>planetmaker: perhaps the unclear mechanism is the problem?
04:29<@planetmaker>Alberth, of feeder services?
04:29<@Alberth>of wanting clean newgrf folders
04:29<@planetmaker>or of how grf deps work? :)
04:29<@planetmaker>maybe, yeah. dunno. I never got the idea to want a 'clean' folder there. The more less issue in trying to debug some crappy savegame ;)
04:30<@planetmaker>and the startup time is no concern even with ~1.5k grfs around on my hdd to search for
04:33<@planetmaker>but how to explain the 'mechanism'? What *is* the actual mechanism and the issue with it?
04:33<@planetmaker>OpenTTD - at least at one point in time - needed the stuff it put there or which you put there actively yourself
04:34<@planetmaker>and if you treasure your savegames, you'll need it again, most likely
04:35<@planetmaker>so... which actions convert water into land or vice versa?
04:35<@planetmaker>raising or lowering land. and levelling land. and clearing land. Anything else?
04:35<@Alberth>flooding
04:36<@planetmaker>oh, of course :) thanks
04:36<@planetmaker>building rivers, I guess
04:36<@planetmaker>or canals
04:37<@Alberth>:)
04:37<Phreeze>in fact, i dont want a clean folder, i want a clean list
04:37<Phreeze>as the in the GRF download, there are 2 av8 downloads
04:38<@Alberth>Phreeze: nobody ever looked at it from a user perspective in the general sense, just like all gui stuff
04:38<@planetmaker>probably needs a 'hide' button :)
04:38<@planetmaker>though we should call it 'delete' ;)
04:38<Phreeze>yeah hide ;)
04:38<@Alberth>"make it go away" :p
04:38<Eearslya>planetmaker: So from what I'm reading, it's not possib le to have the train drop off all its mail, then pick up coal at the same place, without also getting the mail back
04:38<Phreeze>i just deselected them and i use av9 ;)
04:39<@planetmaker>ho begone! ;)
04:39<@Alberth>Eearslya: correct, at least without cargodist
04:39<Phreeze>Eearslya: use 2 trains. Mail and coal on 1 train...hm bad idea, fast freight and slow freight combined
04:39<@planetmaker>Eearslya, that's possible, if you have *one* wagon which carries mail one-way, refit to coal and then loads coal
04:39<@planetmaker>but those wagons might not exist :)
04:39*Alberth hates coal dust on his mail
04:40<@planetmaker>:)
04:40<@planetmaker>refit includes cleansing of the wagon. It won't be coal-dusted. But soap-soaked ;)
04:40<Eearslya>Alright, well barring all that, can I just make this train stop accepting mail? The engines themselves can hold mail, so I can't exactly just remove it
04:41<@Alberth>can you refit the engine?
04:41<@planetmaker>Eearslya, can you refit the engine to *not* hold mail? you can't otherwise stop it
04:41<Phreeze>just leave those mail in it ^^
04:41<Phreeze>like in real life "oh i'm sure that mail was delivered correctly!"
04:42<Phreeze>to be honest: do not use those engines to transport coal ^^ ever seen a TGV with coal wagons ? ;)
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04:43<Eearslya>I'm using it because it's currently the fastest I have
04:43<Taede>i have actually, in my old savegames
04:43<Eearslya>And yes, I could refit it
04:44<Eearslya>Will the station eventually stop collecting mail?
04:45<@planetmaker>no, it won't
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04:46<andythenorth>reift is awesomely powerful, it allows petrol <-> milk
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04:47<Phreeze>i failed hard :X
04:47<Phreeze>disabled default trains in grf
04:47<Phreeze>now i have no wagons ;)
04:47<Phreeze>gotta look up the ids for those hehe
04:48<Eearslya>I'm having fun with FIRS
04:50<andythenorth>which economy?
04:52<Phreeze>what version does the bananas read ? the one i indicate when uploading, or the: "version: 1;" from the source code ?
04:53<Phreeze>in the source code, i cant use 1.1 !? for some reason it wants an integer
04:53<Eearslya>Economy?
04:53<Eddi|zuHause>the version in the source code is for determining which one is newer
04:53<andythenorth>it’s a parameter on FIRS
04:54<andythenorth>hmm
04:54<andythenorth>why do we still call them parameters?
04:54<andythenorth>why don’t we call them options, or settings?
04:54<Eddi|zuHause>it does not need fancy sub-versioning
04:54<andythenorth>‘parameter’ is exposing the implementation to user
04:54<Phreeze>ahhh ok, so i just increment by 1 in the source code, and in banas i call it 1.1 and so on
04:54<Eearslya>FIRS economy, whatever that may mean
04:55<andythenorth>Eearslya: that’s the really big one :)
04:55<andythenorth>I no longer like it
04:55<Eearslya>In what way?
04:55<andythenorth>too big
04:55<Eddi|zuHause>Phreeze: basically, whenever you upload your grf anywhere, the internal version must be higher than all before.
04:55<@planetmaker>Phreeze, source code versions are integer. How you call it for user purposes is up to you
04:55<@planetmaker>you can also call it monkey, zebra, zealot, frog, beaver....
04:56<Eearslya>Why are my engines backwards D:
04:56<Eddi|zuHause>give it fibonacci numbers
04:56<@planetmaker>Eearslya, try ctrl+click?
04:56<Phreeze>i'll give them binary numbers...starting decimal 13424532
04:57<andythenorth>Eearslya: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/get_started.html
04:57<andythenorth>or better http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html
04:57<Eddi|zuHause>there are binary fibonacci numbers
04:58<Eearslya>FIRS is the one I like then, I added it to have more industries after all
04:58<andythenorth>he :D
04:59<Phreeze>bananas error: A pack should contain only one type.
04:59<Phreeze>what am i doing wrong ?
05:00<Phreeze>in the zip, i got the grf, tne PNGs and the readme.txt
05:00<Phreeze>and language and license
05:01<Phreeze>removed gfx...now it says Unknown file in pack: english.lng
05:01<andythenorth>don’t include the source?
05:01<Phreeze>k, with just text files and grf it works
05:08<Eearslya>It's amazing how 3 buses can turn a population 3000 city into a sprawling population 37000 metropolis
05:08<Eearslya>Just gotta give it 43 years
05:08<Phreeze>after years, yes ;)
05:09<Phreeze>i have a city like that, with a train station served by 2 trains and 3 buses with 10000 people waiting ^^
05:09<Phreeze>i then realised that the town has become like 10times the size as before
05:10<Eearslya>Yeah, this was the first city I set up in, then moved away and spent 30 years getting my train system working proper..come back and see it's huge now
05:10<Phreeze>^^
05:10<Phreeze>gotta go, see you
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05:14<andythenorth>fricking autorefit
05:14*andythenorth can’t figure out why it’s failing
05:14<andythenorth>I have a vehicle with orders set to refit between pax and mail
05:14<andythenorth>fixed cargos
05:14<andythenorth>it does the first refit from pax -> mail
05:14<andythenorth>but then won’t refit mail -> pax
05:14<andythenorth>no feedback, no error mesages
05:15<andythenorth>just broken orders
05:15<andythenorth>there’s no cargo on the vehicle, nor any waiting
05:16<andythenorth>depot refit works
05:18<andythenorth>refit between mail and ENSP works
05:18<andythenorth>but won’t refit back to pax at stations
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05:51<andythenorth>present in tip too
05:52<andythenorth>I’m not running the autorefit cb
05:52<andythenorth>do I need to use that as well as the property?
05:54<andythenorth>specs say not
05:54<@planetmaker>refit in stations requires that afaik
05:54<@planetmaker>but not 100% positive
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05:55<andythenorth>weird that it would only be required for PAX?
05:58<@planetmaker>andythenorth, iirc, the refit *property* describes the possible refits in a depot
05:58<@planetmaker>if you want station-refit, you need to call the callback
05:58<andythenorth>nah
05:58<andythenorth>specs say set refit_cost to 0
05:58<andythenorth>and set the flag
05:58<andythenorth>this is a bug with PAX
05:58<andythenorth>either in my code, or ttd, or nml
05:59<andythenorth>but my code…there isn’t any specific to this
05:59<@planetmaker>hm, good news... my job funding is safe beyond next year. Unless Russians kill access to the space station :P
06:00<andythenorth>:P
06:01<andythenorth>yeah autorefit is still just bugged
06:02<@planetmaker>ah, I wasn't aware of the "or prop 1C specifies zero cost"
06:02<andythenorth>I’ll have to make a save and post :P
06:03<andythenorth>think I’ve seen this before with ships too
06:06<andythenorth>planetmaker: if you fancied verifying…Iron Horse is on bananas. Tin Rocket (1998) auto-refits all freight cargo, won’t auto-refit to PAX
06:06<andythenorth>but depot refits are fine
06:07<andythenorth>this is at an empty station with no cargo waiting etc
06:07<andythenorth>and cdist set to manual
06:07<andythenorth>I wouldn’t rule out a bug in my code, but I suspect that auto-refit continues to have issues
06:08<andythenorth>every time it’s looked at, something is found :P
06:08<andythenorth>I have tested with compile of tip
06:08*andythenorth has to go do chores
06:08<andythenorth>bbl
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06:25<Wolf01>moin
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06:32<@planetmaker>o/
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06:47<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by frosch :: r26460 /branches/1.4 (13 files in 3 dirs) (2014-04-13 10:47:39 UTC)
06:47<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: [1.4] -Backport from trunk:
06:47<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: Do not crash when supplying an invalid filename without extension to cmd parameter -q (r26423)
06:47<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: Some road constructions used the rail sound effect [FS#5946] (r26422)
06:47<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: Goal GUI failed to shade [FS#5948] (r26420)
06:47<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: (...)
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06:51<@planetmaker>uh, what?
06:52<@planetmaker>hm, looks like frosch using hgsubversion :P
06:52<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by frosch :: r26461 /branches/1.4 (8 files in 5 dirs) (2014-04-13 10:52:19 UTC)
06:52<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: [1.4] -Backport from trunk:
06:52<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: Avoid division by 0 when scaling flow values [FS#5970] (r26448)
06:52<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Feature: Draw links to match _settings_game.vehicle.road_side [FS#5961] (r26445)
06:52<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Change: Use pkg-config for libpng as well (r26435, r26433, r26432)
06:52<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: (...)
06:53<frosch123>planetmaker: no, why?
06:53<@planetmaker>time difference. But I guess the two hours is just the clock difference between dorpsgek and local time
06:54<frosch123>10:47 UTC and 12:47 CEST look fine to me
06:54<@planetmaker>yup. But I first wondered. Then realized ;)
06:54<@planetmaker>first talk. Then think :P
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07:18<LordAro>dem TrueBrain highights
07:20<TrueBrain>@kick LordAro please dont highlight me unneededly; it is rude *trolls*
07:20-!-LordAro was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [please dont highlight me unneededly; it is rude *trolls*]
07:20<TrueBrain>he so had that coming :P
07:21<@planetmaker>don't mess with da FalseBrain ;)
07:22<Pikka>TrueBrain, "needlessly" or "unnecessarily" ;)
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07:22<andythenorth>lo bob
07:22<LordAro>:(
07:22<@planetmaker>:D
07:22<Pikka>lo bob andy
07:22<TrueBrain>Pikka: what can I say .. I am special :D
07:22<andythenorth>it is a pikka
07:22<TrueBrain><3 Lord Aro
07:23<Pikka>isn't it
07:23<andythenorth>did anyone make a GS yet?
07:23<Pikka>did you?
07:24<Pikka>if not, then probably not.
07:24<andythenorth>no
07:24<andythenorth>looks like real programming
07:24<andythenorth>I’m not smart enough
07:25<andythenorth>also newgrfs
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07:25<Pikka>what of newgrfs?
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07:26<andythenorth>making
07:26<andythenorth>GS and newgrf can’t both be making
07:26<andythenorth>12 degrees C here
07:26<andythenorth>must be summer
07:27<Pikka>must be
07:28*andythenorth considers a GS
07:28<@planetmaker>https://rhodecode.openttdcoop.org/pm-openttd/changeset/e8f54f5611363d6e0256f61a7a231e5829ab215f and https://rhodecode.openttdcoop.org/pm-openttd/changeset/78587412e6a7b94beb59c6078655fc39ae79681a might do the trick for caching of the GetClosestWaterDistance values
07:28<andythenorth>simple GS
07:28<andythenorth>after random number of years, it puts up message: “You won!”
07:28<@planetmaker>first player to build a HQ wins?
07:28<andythenorth>maybe also “You lost!”
07:28<andythenorth>as option
07:29<@planetmaker>might actually not be a bad idea, andythenorth :)
07:29<andythenorth>then game is over
07:29<@planetmaker>For players who need an ending, that's great :)
07:29<andythenorth>play until you’re dead
07:29<andythenorth>bit too realistic
07:29<@planetmaker>after 5 million years we'd not only be dead, but long de-composed
07:29<Pikka>can't be having realism
07:29<@planetmaker>unless you prepare your dead such that you'll be fossilised
07:30<@planetmaker>Like finding a good swampy marshland or so
07:34*LordAro attempts to rebase http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/newmap.git/commitdiff/7e616d2388acaaa475b736fa476685d556c82eb5 against http://vcs.openttd.org/git?p=openttd/trunk.git;a=commitdiff;h=0566a6cfdaa3a4b1e28676b076e2f833bd39bd8f;hp=94d326dc7dcc3f5d8850f32a1e02b93fb233b710
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08:49<Pikka>first player to build a HQ wins... hmmm... :)
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08:59<andythenorth>“And I would argue that a NewGRF falls under an artistic and entertainment work, and not software or documentation. “
08:59<andythenorth>FFS
08:59<andythenorth>that’s just stupid
08:59<Pikka>all license arguments are stupid
09:00<andythenorth>well yes
09:00<andythenorth>anyway
09:00<andythenorth>maybe he’s right
09:01<andythenorth>planetmaker: strictly newgrfs aren’t an interactive program, and they don’t display the GPL notification at startup
09:01<andythenorth>so we should stop using GPL
09:01*Pikka stopped using GPL
09:02<andythenorth>well done Pikka :D
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09:02<andythenorth>is there food here?
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09:02<Pikka>only coffee
09:02<andythenorth>yes
09:02*andythenorth found rice
09:02<Pikka>I think you should keep using GPL
09:02<Pikka>or
09:03<Pikka>whatever
09:03<Pikka>no-one's going to court over newgrfs. being a good member of the community and being intellectually honest are higher priorities than legalismisms
09:04<andythenorth>the problem comes when we get takedown notices
09:04<andythenorth>and other crap
09:05<Pikka>what licence people use for their newgrfs isn't going to change that though
09:05<andythenorth>also I wanted to switch to http://www.wtfpl.net
09:08<Pikka>the real "problem" is that the plebs all want to reuse one another's sprites, and so that tricksy little viral GPL gets passed around.
09:08<andythenorth>might do that :P
09:08<andythenorth>I like that problem fwiw
09:08<andythenorth>means I can take stuff from anything
09:09<andythenorth>whereas all this ‘based on respect’ etc shit is meaningless
09:09<Pikka>yes
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09:09<Pikka>but so is the GPL if no-one's going to sue
09:09<andythenorth>yeah, but then I just ignore them
09:09<andythenorth>and they can’t start sending takedowns to our ISPs
09:10<Pikka>but they can
09:10<andythenorth>well yes
09:10<andythenorth>anyway, it’s all a bit la la la eh
09:10<Pikka>zacly
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09:11<andythenorth>mostly this is not licenses, mostly ‘someone is wrong on the internets'
09:11<andythenorth>bad andythenorth
09:12<andythenorth>is there food here? only eating coffee causes shakes
09:12<Pikka>I had a banana but I ated it
09:13<andythenorth>shame
09:13*rubidium still got a "the laughing cow"
09:13<andythenorth>you could have sent it to me
09:13<andythenorth>mmm
09:13<andythenorth>laughing cow
09:13<andythenorth>no proper cheese in France
09:13<Pikka>I have a bit of bert in the fridge
09:13*andythenorth considering starting a business, importing real cheese to France
09:14<rubidium>what is real cheese?
09:14<rubidium>"real American imitation cheese"?
09:14<peter1139>14:01 < andythenorth> planetmaker: strictly newgrfs aren’t an interactive program, and they don’t display the GPL notification at startup
09:14<peter1139>Pretty much no GPL software does display a notification, heh.
09:15<andythenorth>rubidium: cheddar
09:15<andythenorth>the majority of proper cheese is cheddar
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09:15<andythenorth>there are others, but they are much less significant
09:16<andythenorth>ha ha
09:16<andythenorth>“If I don’t actually do what the fuck I want am I in violation of the terms of the license?”
09:16<andythenorth>from the FAQs
09:19<andythenorth>it is a very funny page
09:19<andythenorth>only andythenorth would find a licensing FAQ funny :(
09:22<@planetmaker>peter1139, also NewGRFs (can) display the license info ingame where it's nicely user visible
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09:33<andythenorth>V453000 is a bit quiet
09:33<andythenorth>is he here?
09:33<V453000>no
09:33<frosch123>if in doubt, he is drunk
09:33<@planetmaker>oh there
09:33<@planetmaker>in the beer barrel :P
09:34<V453000>rendering a fucking stone
09:34<@planetmaker>you didn't start with it?
09:34<V453000>with what? :D
09:35<@planetmaker>rendering?
09:35<V453000>wat
09:35<andythenorth>V453000: so farms = slave labour?
09:35<V453000>yes
09:35<@planetmaker>I'm asking you, what you render, V453000 ;)
09:36<V453000>oh, beginnings of yeti stone mine planetmaker :P
09:36<andythenorth>V453000: I kind of agree, I was hoping cdist would solve it :P
09:36<@planetmaker>he, nice :)
09:36<V453000>we have cdist - firs game on our prozone server atm, cdist isnt helpful.
09:37<andythenorth>worse than helpful
09:37<andythenorth>the opposite
09:37<V453000>:)
09:37<andythenorth>also you hate supplies generally?
09:38<V453000>no!
09:38<andythenorth>just farms
09:38<V453000>supplies are great but every industry needs to be able to contribute to supply produciton
09:38<V453000>farms are the problem in their number, you just have to build X times more in order to get the same (or less) than other industries
09:39<andythenorth>I have serously considered ‘farms’ = a single industry instance
09:39<andythenorth>instead of a cluster of 10 or so
09:39<andythenorth>worked in railroad tycoon
09:39<V453000>the clustering is just weird
09:39<andythenorth>much higher production, single drop off
09:39<andythenorth>weird in which ways?
09:41<V453000>In general for all industries: in multiplayer everybody needs everything to have firs work nicely. Having a cluster of an important industry only somewhere is only for the player who found it first. For farms: slave labour :)
09:41<V453000>if everything was spread over the whole map individually, it would get a lot more playable
09:41<@planetmaker>I don't think that's true for FIRS farms
09:41<andythenorth>hmm
09:42<@planetmaker>them clustering is one of the selling points for me
09:42<andythenorth>^ main reason I never changed it
09:42<V453000>what I could see as a working option would be: 1. have e.g. FARMING / MINING area and 2. let ANY primary produce its own supplies
09:42<@planetmaker>FIRS generally might not be ideal for small to intermediate maps with multiplayer
09:42<andythenorth>+1
09:43<V453000>what would that mean is, some players would not get to all industry types, but it would not hurt them
09:43<andythenorth>V453000: point 2 means what?
09:43<V453000>which hurts the system of firs majorly, too
09:43<V453000>point 2 means e.g. farms must be able to create farm supplies in all economies
09:43<andythenorth>ok
09:43<andythenorth>that was always ruled out, due to closed feedback loops
09:43<V453000>which isnt a problem only in the case of "each player gets something" but also in general
09:43<andythenorth>but Heart of Darkness does it….sky didn’t fall
09:44<V453000>in that case oil/iron ore/coal/... should not be able to create ES
09:44<V453000>which I would agree with
09:45<andythenorth>V453000: consider realism :P
09:45<V453000>...
09:45<andythenorth>RL farms definitely don’t feed grain to cows
09:45<andythenorth>or use cowshit for growing crops...
09:45<V453000>see
09:49<andythenorth>original design had a farm supply depot
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09:51<andythenorth>V453000: you can’t just ignore the farms? o_O
09:51<V453000>exactly
09:51<V453000>you totally can
09:51<V453000>and you have no reason at all not to do so
09:52<V453000>which imo is wrong
09:52<V453000>the player should have some motivation to use everything
09:53<@planetmaker><andythenorth> or use cowshit for growing crops... <-- they definitely do that
09:53<@planetmaker>heck, it's even recommended practise
09:53<V453000>yes, I think that would solve the farm self-insufficience
09:54<andythenorth>there is room to add an industry
09:54<andythenorth>grain, livestock -> FMSP
09:54<andythenorth>maybe fruit?
09:54<andythenorth>not milk :P
09:54<andythenorth>or wool :P
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09:58<V453000>can farms produce livestock poo as a new cargo?
09:58<andythenorth>no slots
09:59<V453000>:D
09:59<V453000>well how about letting towns grow only if you give them food, and grabbing FMSP from a supply depot near towns, town grows = moar FMSP
09:59<V453000>human shit?
10:00<V453000>sounds a lot like yeti though :P
10:00<V453000>perhaps grain farms could feed animal farms, and animal farms could poo on grain farms
10:00<V453000>that would actually be nice
10:01<V453000>or even demolish FMSP as a whole and let ES go to farms too
10:01<V453000>machinery, tractors, ...
10:01<andythenorth>just ‘supplies'
10:01<V453000>yea
10:02<V453000>it doesnt help the fact that farms couldnt make supplies tho
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10:06<andythenorth>that was by design originally
10:06<andythenorth>doesn’t make it right
10:06<andythenorth>but the idea was you had to connect up the whole economy to get food to grow towns
10:06<andythenorth>although growing towns is the most boring goal ever never
10:13<pthagnar>coca farms
10:13<pthagnar>the products of which cause towns to shrink
10:13<@planetmaker>shrink? Grow!
10:13<@planetmaker>citizens are angry / indifferent / happy / hippi ;)
10:15<andythenorth>hmm
10:15<andythenorth>ships can auto-refit pax <-> other cargos
10:15<andythenorth>wtf have I done wrong here :|
10:15<andythenorth>my trains just won’t do it
10:25<andythenorth>Pikka: got any trains that auto-refit pax <-> other ?
10:25<Pikka>I do not
10:25<Pikka>but I see no reason why it shouldn't work
10:25<andythenorth>me neither
10:25<andythenorth>works for ships
10:26<andythenorth>can’t see anything wrong in my code
10:26<Pikka>unless your fabulous 3-part-vehicles don't play well with autorefitting...
10:26<andythenorth>fabulouso
10:26<andythenorth>I shall abuse them
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10:29<andythenorth>dunno what I could do that would only affect PAX
10:34<andythenorth>seems not due to fancy 3 part vehicles
10:51<Pikka>dunno then
10:52<Pikka>I blame peter1139
10:52<LordAro>who doesn't?
10:59<peter1139>What?
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12:13<andythenorth>spose I could try reading ottd src
12:19<andythenorth>why would PAX even have a special case in src?
12:20<@planetmaker>road stops
12:20<@planetmaker>town growth
12:20<andythenorth>for rail stations though?
12:21<@planetmaker>no :)
12:21<andythenorth>unless it’s an unintended consequence of something else :P
12:21<andythenorth>I kind of want it to be my grf, but I can’t find anything wrong
12:27<andythenorth>this is the nml for the vehicle http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3225/
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12:27<andythenorth>someone find the code where I unintentionally blocked PAX auto-refit?
12:27<andythenorth>only thing I can think of is that it doesn’t find a capacity for PAX during the refit
12:28<andythenorth>and that’s just a bad guess going nowhere :P
12:30<@planetmaker>is pax default cargo?
12:31<@planetmaker>where does that vehicle have any capacity at all, andythenorth ?
12:36<andythenorth>tin_rocket_1_switch_cargo_capacity_by_cargo_0
12:36<andythenorth>and similar
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12:57<andythenorth>been looking for auto-refit code in src
12:57<andythenorth>bit lost
13:00<andythenorth>wonder if there’s something that prevents going across classes
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26462 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2014-04-13 17:45:28 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>german - 3 changes by planetmaker
13:45<@DorpsGek>hungarian - 5 changes by Brumi
13:45<@DorpsGek>italian - 3 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<@DorpsGek>turkish - 4 changes by wakeup
13:45<@DorpsGek>welsh - 6 changes by kazzie
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15:03*andythenorth might play a game
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15:09<Supercheese>take care, the only winning move is not to play
15:09<Supercheese>;)
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15:22<@DorpsGek>Commit by peter1138 :: r26463 /trunk/src (10 files in 2 dirs) (2014-04-13 19:22:23 UTC)
15:22<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r10190ish): Add special handling for PALETTE_CRASH to work for non-8bpp-mapped sprites.
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16:09<Bob_>hi
16:18<andythenorth>NCG or SV?
16:19<@planetmaker>for what, andythenorth ?
16:19<@planetmaker>hi Bob_
16:19<andythenorth>playing a game
16:19<@planetmaker>difficult choice
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16:21<andythenorth>SV I think
16:21<andythenorth>more depth
16:21<@planetmaker>:)
16:23<Bob_>how's it going guys?
16:24<andythenorth>setting up a game
16:24<andythenorth>takes about 10 mins :P
16:39<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> planetmaker: strictly newgrfs aren’t an interactive program, and they don’t display the GPL notification at startup <-- neither programs need to be "interactive" nor is a requirement for GPL to show at startup.
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16:41<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: read licence paragraph 2c
16:42<andythenorth>nah he’s right
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: starts with a giant "IF"
16:42<NucWin>what is the bare minimum deps for a dedicated server? ubuntu wants to install mesa, pulse and lots of other packages i surely dont need
16:42<frosch123>well, the parantheses at the end are important
16:42<frosch123>if the program does, you have to keep it that way
16:43<frosch123>NucWin: if you compile yourself, do "./configure --enable-dedicated"
16:43<frosch123>that should remove the need for most X libs
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but again, NewGRF is not interactive in the first place, so the whole section doesn't apply
16:44<NucWin>so compiling myself will be the best route for dedicated?
16:44<andythenorth>do stations have PBS signals in or not?
16:44<andythenorth>I never figured out it
16:44<frosch123>it is unlikely that you find a dedicated-only package for ubuntu
16:44<valhallasw>andythenorth: no, just out
16:44<NucWin>thanks
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>NucWin: we don't offer precompiled dedicated servers, because there is not enough demand
16:44<valhallasw>andythenorth: PBS signals should be at a place where the train can stop
16:44<frosch123>i guess only gentoo may have such a use flag
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no, stations don't have builtin signals
16:45<valhallasw>oh, 'in' like that
16:45<andythenorth>but a train won’t forward reserve past a platform where it is stopping?
16:45<NucWin>only get 10GB of space on my vps so dont want to go package crazy, i will build locally and upload :)
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: just trains that reverse check for a free path without a signal
16:46<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: but, wouldn't it be appropiate for newgrf to print "absolutely no warranty"?
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it will reserve beyond the platform to the next signal
16:46<andythenorth>trying to figure out if my metro stations need signals in front of them or not :P
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: print to where?
16:46<frosch123>on all sprites
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: do the sprites read interactive commands?
16:46<frosch123>in the vehicle details
16:47<frosch123>no warranty of any purpose for this vehicle
16:47<andythenorth>+1
16:47<andythenorth>can we have a blink character code?
16:47<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: nuts includes text in some sprites
16:47<frosch123>andythenorth: only in ttdp
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: just use an animated text colour? :p
16:48<andythenorth>good point
16:48<frosch123>ottd no longer uses text colour definitions from the baseset
16:48<andythenorth>fire cycle
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16:56<@planetmaker>10GB is sufficient, if you don't do anything out of the ordinary. zlib, liblzma, lzo2, icu, dunno about fontconfig for servers
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16:56<@planetmaker>NucWin, unless you have the same system on the VCS as on your compile machine, it's going to be fun :)
16:56<frosch123>what do you want icu for?
16:57<@planetmaker>fancy text :P
16:57<rubidium>even lzo2 isn't really needed for servers
16:57<NucWin>both are ubuntu 12.04 x64
16:58<@planetmaker>aye, ok. I still find it always easier to compile on server :)
16:58<rubidium>on the other hand, lzma requires pkg-config which might pull in quite a bit of gnome stuff
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16:59<peter1139>bah @ powercut
17:00<@planetmaker>https://packages.debian.org/de/wheezy/pkg-config seems small, rubidium
17:00<rubidium>and all it's dependencies?
17:01<@planetmaker>don't I understand the list that way?
17:01<__ln__>its
17:01<rubidium>you mean the architecture list with sizes? That's only for the package itself
17:01<@planetmaker>it lists with a red dot the deps
17:02<NucWin>dont think i have build stuff on my vps
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17:02<rubidium>yeah, which lists glib
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17:02<NucWin>if it fails this way i will just have to install it
17:03<__ln__>glib is not exactly "quite a bit of gnome stuff"
17:03<frosch123>gnu/gnome/gimp :p
17:03<rubidium>and glib is more or less the root library of GTK/GNOME/...
17:04<rubidium>a lovely 4 MB big library with a 8 MB data appendix
17:05<andythenorth>maybe I should stop station walking and build some trams
17:05<__ln__>it is, but it is a requirement for a lot of other software as well (including a lot of non-gui software), so i'm wondering if anyone has a system without glib installed already.
17:06<__ln__>for example, irssi depends on glib.
17:07<rubidium>seems like the gnome pulling capability of pkg-config is quite limited
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17:09<@planetmaker>good night
17:10<peter1139>glib is almost a standard library now
17:21<andythenorth>building these metros is faff
17:22<Supercheese>So many strings to translate
17:25<frosch123>night
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17:25<andythenorth>signals in tunnels anyone? :P
17:26<Supercheese>cirdan's NMF has that
17:26<FLHerne>andythenorth: And on bridges, and on underground railways
17:26<Supercheese>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=58420
17:26<Supercheese>and much more
17:27<Supercheese>no signals on bridges yet it seems
17:28<FLHerne>And on station tiles (including the diagonal ones). Obviously they have to be restrictive and programmable and speed-limiting and act as waypoints too
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17:41<andythenorth>how do I fix a train that has no power?
17:41<andythenorth>can’t convert the railtype
17:42<andythenorth>crash another train into it?
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17:42<+glx>don't change newgrf in a running game ;)
17:43<andythenorth>I didn’t
17:43<andythenorth>some track got flooded
17:43<andythenorth>but that should have nothing to do with railtype
17:44<andythenorth>appears to be no solution :o
17:45<andythenorth>well that’s fucked my game :)
17:45<Supercheese>why can't you convert?
17:46<andythenorth>just can't
17:46<Supercheese>well fix that
17:46<andythenorth>train on it
17:46<andythenorth>can’t convert with a train on it...
17:46<Supercheese>oh, can't convert while the train's there eh
17:46<Supercheese>lame
17:46<andythenorth>yeah
17:46<andythenorth>so how did the train get there? o_O
17:46<Supercheese>patch that sh*t out
17:46<+glx>how train can be on a track where it has no power ?
17:46<Supercheese>:O
17:47<andythenorth>glx: is a good question eh?
17:47<+glx>that's why my first reaction was newgrf change
17:47<FLHerne>Can't you just leave it stranded there?
17:48<andythenorth>FLHerne: this is definitely the best way to fix bugs, yes
17:48<Supercheese>Crash another train into it
17:48<Supercheese>that'll remove it
17:48<Supercheese>:D
17:48<andythenorth>can't
17:48<Supercheese>awww
17:48<FLHerne>It's a feature, clearly. Discourages allowing your railway to flood by increasing the hassle :P
17:48<andythenorth>incompatible railtype
17:49<Supercheese>well, flood the train then
17:49<+glx>hmm so the flooding modified railtype ?
17:49<andythenorth>not sure
17:49<Supercheese>doesn't flooding destroy the train?
17:49<FLHerne>Are there no trains that %will% run on that railtype, then?
17:49<andythenorth>it destroyed one train
17:49<Supercheese>but not the other? O_o
17:49<+glx>what does say landscape info ?
17:50<andythenorth>says it’s standard railway track
17:50<andythenorth>not metro track
17:50<andythenorth>I’ve managed to connect more track and crash the train
17:51<Supercheese>huzzah
17:51<andythenorth>interesting issue
17:51<+glx>maybe you can try to reproduce it :)
17:51<andythenorth>ugh
17:54<Supercheese>Bug husbandry is a tough profession. Sometimes those issues just don't want to reproduce, despite all attempts at breeding
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>i always wondered what this word "husbandry" actually means
17:57<Supercheese>to wiktionary
17:57<Supercheese>huh, no etymology
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>well, for starters: which language is it derived from
18:01<__ln__>to OED -> etymology: HUSBAND n. + -RY suffix.
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: recurse
18:01<__ln__>husband, n.: THe master of a house, the male head of a house. Obs.
18:02<__ln__>Etymology: Late Old English húsbonda , -bunda , < hús house + late Old English ? bónda , bonda , bunda , < Old Norse bóndi , peasant owning his own house and land, freeholder, franklin, yeoman; earlier búandi , bóandi , originally present participle of búa , bóa to dwell, have a household; but the Old English use answered immediately to Old Norse húsbóndi , a man of this rank in his capacity as head or master of the household
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>so, nordic
18:04<Supercheese>http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=husbandry
18:05<Supercheese>and yeah Norse
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18:14<andythenorth>bye
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19:20<Wolf01>'night
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19:48<FrenkyPohodar>Good day to you.
19:54<FLHerne>FrenkyPohodar: Good (very early) morning :-)
19:55<FrenkyPohodar>In the Czech Republic, two in the morning :)
20:01<FrenkyPohodar>I found on the internet OTTD-web config for editing openttd.cfg but somehow it still does not. I'm going to ask for help. I guess I'm wrong path. I do not know how to specify the path there is a way to win C: \ Users \ Leviathan \ Documents \ OpenTTD \ content_download \ data but how to write for linux? I do not have the file data
20:03<Supercheese>According to http://wiki.openttd.org/Openttd.cfg
20:03<Supercheese>Linux : "~/.openttd"
20:03<FLHerne>On Linux, the equivalent path is ~/.openttd/content_download/data
20:04<FLHerne>And your guide may be outdated, because for manual installation you should just be using ~/.openttd/data
20:05<FLHerne>content_download should only be edited by the game, to store things downloaded with the in-game interface
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---Logclosed Mon Apr 14 00:00:22 2014