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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-04-14

---Logopened Mon Apr 14 00:00:22 2014
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03:04<dihedral>good morning
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03:50<DanMacK>Hey all
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05:54<peter1139>protected static still feels wrong o_O
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05:56<SpComb>private volatile const *restrict const x = 0x42;
05:57<SpComb>spot the bug
05:57<TinoDidriksen>2nd const
05:57<TinoDidriksen>Oh wait, no actual type...
05:59<TinoDidriksen>But even then, what language would that be? It's not C++...
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>what does "restrict" mean?
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>i sometimes wonder how so many wtfs can be put into one single line
06:06<peter1139>restrict with const seems silly though :)
06:09<SpComb>private volatile const *restrict const *void mem = 0;
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07:04<krinn>hi, openttdcoop status on heartbleed please?
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07:14<Eddi|zuHause>"on a scale from 1 to tschernobyl, this is a fukushima"
07:14<krinn>server run a debian i suppose?
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>who is the admin of that anyway? Ammler? ^Spike^?
07:15<krinn>my question is not really if it is affect, i suppose it is
07:16<krinn>just if it is fix
07:16<peter1139>1) not all servers were affected
07:16<LordAro>krinn, it could well never have been vulnerable, if it's updated like :L
07:16<peter1139>2) it's been a week...
07:16<peter1139>(well, nearly)
07:16<peter1139>3) test yourself
07:17<krinn>testing a fixed server doesn't make it a non affected one ;)
07:17<^Spike^>4) get ip banned cause you make someone mad by testing stuff without him liking it :)
07:17<^Spike^>it's fixed the same day the news came out
07:18<^Spike^>was a server that was on the nomination of fixing well basicly during this week/my vacation
07:18<^Spike^>but well it was done earlier
07:19<^Spike^>and krinn assumptions about os... ;)
07:19<krinn>yep just assumptions
07:19<^Spike^>we have a mix of 3 OS atm which we are bringing down to 2
07:20<^Spike^>or rather... 2 OS families...
07:20<^Spike^>RedHat and Debian families
07:21<peter1139>I have quite a bit of stuff on Debian oldstable still, which was never affected. Handy.
07:22<krinn>osssl < 1.01?
07:23<^Spike^>considering most servers have been reinstall within the last 1-1,5 year you can prob guess versions
07:24<krinn>older than 2013/12 is fine so
07:25<^Spike^>let's just say the access point we had was vulnerable
07:25<^Spike^>that's a thing we did have... 1 server ssl offloading it for the rest
07:25<krinn>i don't remember where the switch to ssh was made?
07:27<krinn>server got a problem and ssh only was use to upload last time i tried
07:27<^Spike^>eh... ah i know what you mean
07:27<^Spike^>you mean for project pushes...
07:28<^Spike^>ehm... i don't remember exactly when it started failing
07:28<krinn>that's only ssl usage i've made
07:28<^Spike^>ssh shouldn't have been affected if i remember correct
07:29<krinn>yep, that's why i ask, that bug that was a saver finally :)
07:29<^Spike^>we are working on getting https pushing working again just takes time... :)
07:30<krinn>take your time, i prefer ssh
07:30<^Spike^>in the end i don't ;)
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07:31<^Spike^>atleast... not in it's current setup :)
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07:31<krinn>as long as ssh is ok, i'm fine
07:31<^Spike^>it is :)
07:31<^Spike^>until the next bug in openssh is found :)
07:32<^Spike^>we'll never know :D
07:32<krinn>well, it is more than sure it will comes soon
07:32<krinn>because of HB i suppose zillions eyes are put on thing like ossh now
07:33<^Spike^>the moment work calls me out of bed on my free day cause of a critical bug well... should say enough :)
07:33<^Spike^>i work @ a hosting company so lots of linux/unix servers :)
07:34<krinn>any openssh dev should be scared like fuck to have made similar error and don't want his name associate with such a story, so they are working hard imo at reviewing their commit
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07:34<krinn>lol ^Spike^ must have been a bad day then
07:35<^Spike^>it was 2 days before i had a damn exam... so yeah :D
07:35<^Spike^>and i guess if openssh has such a bug... it will happen again :)
07:36<krinn>well it should, that wasn't a huge bug, even the impact is huge...
07:37<^Spike^>considering we do alot with ssl offloading at work...
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07:37<^Spike^>you can realize the impact
07:39<krinn>yes, like Eddi|zuHause said, more like fukushima
07:39<^Spike^>collegue didn't like it either when i "tested" the sslvpn from home :)
07:39<^Spike^>he was calling me about it with info and i was like: Yeah i see.... ;)
07:43<krinn>ah fine! just check my and its date august 2013, so the ssl bug on ottdcoop must be august or earlier
07:44<@planetmaker>not exactly a bug. But we changed the web frontend
07:44<@planetmaker>The new one not integrated with the credentials DB
07:44<@planetmaker>thus no action which requires authentication
07:45<@planetmaker>but that all is totally unrelated to any heartbeat thing
07:46<krinn>fine then! At least i don't have anything to change for ottdcoop
07:47<@planetmaker>and the integration with the credentials DB... takes time :)
07:47<^Spike^>you're member of the biggest social network anyway... ;)
07:47<@planetmaker>didn't exactly become an urgent thing to restore :P
07:48<krinn>^Spike^, you mean irc, i'm not on facebook or tweeter like
07:52<^Spike^>nop.... the NSA ;)
07:52<krinn>must have trigger some servers just putting that word here
07:53<^Spike^>oh well they try to log everything on freenode/oftc/other related irc network anyway ;)
07:53<^Spike^>gives them more to search through
07:53<^Spike^>gives us more time to well... keep them busy even more :D
07:54<krinn>it's impressive to think about google infra, and they have power to log google and all, must have a grounded site that is huge like a country!
08:04<peter1139>Bear in mind that OpenSSH is totally separate to and different from OpenSSL.
08:05<krinn>peter1139, yep that's why i'm happy ssl bug in openttdcoop made us switch to ossh :)
08:05<^Spike^>ehm... it wasn't an openssl bug that leaded to the switch
08:06<krinn>sorry guys, yep, not a bug
08:06<^Spike^>better said the change wasn't related openssl at all
08:06<krinn>but unavaiabability (too long word to not make faults on it)
08:06<peter1139>Unavailability? Quite simple.
08:07<krinn>well, i should put some speller in that xchat one day
08:07<krinn>and also stop calling it xchat one day too
08:08<peter1139>Yeah, the correct name is irssi.
08:08<krinn>nope, hexchat
08:10<krinn>irssi is for me like emacs, extend to a point it's no more usable ;)
08:11<krinn>at least emacs is close to making coffee, that would be fine then
08:12<peter1139>Extend? I... don't use any extensions.
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>i've known a guy who used emacs for his coffee like 10 years ago
08:14<LordAro>how did he manage that?
08:14<krinn>lmao Eddi|zuHause the problem is that might be really possible
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>i think he connected the coffee maker to the serial port or so
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08:14<krinn>serial port interface with some pro coffee
08:15<LordAro>coffee maker with a serial port? ok :3
08:15<krinn>yep what i think, the next part would be programming emacs to do that, and i'm sure it's doable for emacs
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>basically he was tired of getting asked this question all the time, so he actually did it :)
08:15<krinn>i should have taken "pickup the dog for a walk" example
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08:54<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, I'm sure that "written offer" covers very well an electronic document saying "Ask us for the source"
08:54<@planetmaker>"written offer" needs not be a rock or piece of paper
08:55<krinn>yep, it's written, just like we write here or in txt
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: ultimately this is for a court to decide, but that's not the point anyway
08:55<@planetmaker>and, according to GPL FAQ, the written offer is valid for everyone in the world, including people who didn't get the programme from you themselves
08:55<krinn>the aim of the written offer is to prevent anyone from hidding the fact you can have the source
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08:55<Flygon>Damned tails
08:55<Flygon>Growing when I'm not looking
08:56*Flygon runs off again
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: yes, if the written offer is passed on, the right to get the source is passed on
08:56<krinn>nope, the right to get the source comes with the modification of the files you've made
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but still this doesn't mean you have to give the written offer to everyone
08:56<krinn>passing unmodified files, you don't pass the license, it remain to the one that has modify it
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: you don't have the right to pass on unmodified files without license
08:59<krinn>i'm not speaking about removing the license
09:00<krinn>just that, if you aren't allow to remove the license, what's the point of the written offer as the license must be include, and the license grant already the ability to have source in it
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>that sentence makes no sense
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09:01<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, i made a license, you cannot remove it, my license tell you that you must provide source. Why i force you to make another written offer requiring the same thing?
09:01<krinn>because the written offer is to make sure before getting the license, you will get the license part right to access the source
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: the license says to provide written offer. you must provide an actual written offer with it
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>the written offer is not part of the license
09:02<krinn>no the license say you must provide source AND provide a written offer to the source
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>you're leaving out essential details
09:03<krinn>that's why court exists :) details
09:03<krinn>which one?
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>you have to provide source _to anyone that asks_, and you have to write an offer _telling them they have the right to ask, and who to ask_
09:04-!-Pazikonik is "(unknown)" on (unknown)
09:04<V453000>yay licencing rage war :D
09:05<V453000>btw what if you simply do not have the source anymore?
09:06<krinn>you cannot use it anymore
09:06<V453000>well you for example only have newer source files for newer version
09:06<krinn>all the GPL is made only for the source, that's why everyone can sell binary... but any restriction to source is prohibited
09:08<krinn>if you have old source, you have the license for old sources, if you have a newer versions without source, you loose the license on it
09:08<V453000>and then?
09:08<krinn>no license mean you cannot use it
09:09<krinn>just like a copy of windows without license you cannot use it, this doesn't mean the executable is bad
09:09<V453000>and who will sue me if the license doesnt exist and "nobody" is the author if it isnt me anymore?
09:09<krinn>oh you mean you are the author
09:09<krinn>there's no license for author (at least in france)
09:09<krinn>author can swap license as he wish
09:10<krinn>the copyright is hold until the author state clearly he drop it
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: i think it said soemwhere
09:10<krinn>or in france 70 years after author death
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>the written offer must be valid 3 years
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>if you cannot fulfill the written offer, you're in breach of contract, which can have all sorts of legal consequences
09:13<@planetmaker>it terminates your license, thus your right to use the software, less sell or distribute it
09:14<krinn>so you can if you have put a limit in time in your written offer
09:14<krinn>because the time limit is not 3 years
09:14<krinn>it's "at least" 3 years
09:14<krinn>if none specify it, it's then forever
09:14<krinn>just like job contrat, if you want hire someone 3 months, you better write it's for 3 months
09:15<V453000>well but if I lost the source, I cant really prove I am the author anymore
09:15<krinn>you never infringe copyright of anyone, until that anyone claim it
09:16<krinn>this mean yep, if you cannot prove you've made it, and by having source i put a proof i've made it, i can even sue you for your work ^^
09:16<@planetmaker>I should claim again copyright on the illegal OpenTTD version offered for 0.89€ in the iOS store...
09:16<@planetmaker>some sick Chinese rip-off
09:16<krinn>planetmaker, only if they don't respect it
09:16<@planetmaker>I'm sure I already once lodged a complaint on that one.
09:17<krinn>with the binary free download they might provide the written license and path to get source
09:17<@planetmaker>krinn, iTunes store inherently doesn't. It imposes further restrictions on distributions. Thus they don't allow GPL
09:17<@planetmaker>Thus he has no right to upload it
09:17<@planetmaker>They pulled the legal version once
09:17<krinn>yep, itunes cannot add their drm on it
09:18<krinn>no restriction on distribution, this include drm
09:19<krinn>it's easy, putting your work on GPL you make sure as soon as one distrib a version of your work, you can get back the change from them, forcing them to gave you the change even they don't contribute to your work
09:19<krinn>that's why free are sue here! they use kernel, busybox, iptable within the freebox and claim they use on their freebox but no customer can buy the freebox
09:20<krinn>so, we don't sell it, we don't distribute it, so no need to gave the code...
09:20<krinn>but if you resign from free, they make you pay the freebox if you don't sent it back : tada, now the freebox is you, so they really sell it.
09:22<krinn>(i'm not specially proud they are french)
09:25<krinn>Forgetting to include the written offer to the source code. -> tell me your source code are on paper now :)
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: what??
09:29<krinn>nope, not a proof is has to be made not on paper, but it has to be written, that doesn't mean on paper
09:30<krinn>but, if we follow you, i made change to your source code, release a binary for 100000$ and when you ask the changes, i'll answer: you'll get the change when you get your license, and to get the license you must pay the binary price...
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: i still don't understand what you're trying to say
09:31<krinn>that money is a restriction too, and i can deny you your own work with it.
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: yes, i can ask you to show me the written offer that i gave you. and you can only have that written offer if at least one person paid me
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: additionally, i can ask 3,50€ from you for burning on a CD and shipping fees
09:35<krinn>yep, that's normal fees
09:36<krinn>and you can sell your program, and i can sell it too, but i must provide source if i modify it.
09:37<krinn>even not state, it's clear the validity of such written offer should make sense, not asking too much money (for shipping fee) or anything abusing "send me a letter and a kidney and i send you source back"
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>so, what is your point?
09:40<krinn>the point is that any restriction in the written offer is not valid
09:40<krinn>and this include : buy my binary and you get the source.
09:41<krinn>except the author himself that isn't tied to any license. Anyone selling binary cannot hide behind the selling of the binary its need to provide the source
09:42<krinn>and the deal "get my binary for 300000$ and you can ask source" isn't valid.
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09:45<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: it is. you cannot have the written offer if you didn't buy the binary, or got it from someone who bought the binary
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09:46<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: and without the written offer i don't have to give you shit
09:47<krinn>the written offer doesn't force you, the license itself force you :)
09:49<krinn>-> Remember the license requires you make source available to your customers with the product or to include a written offer.
09:52<krinn>So if you don't provide the written offer, you're then tied to provide sources directly.
09:54<blathijs>krinn: If this is about GPL - the license says the source (or written offer) must accompany any distribution of the binary. This means that there is no obligation to release the source to people that are not receiving (buying) the binary.
09:55<krinn>yep, but the written offer is an exception to the license. The license tell everyone GPL must provide source, and if it doesn't provide source it's because of the exception put on the written offer.
09:55<krinn>So if you hide the exception, there's then no exception.
09:55<blathijs>The GPL doesn't say you must provide the source to everyone, only to people that you also provide the binary to.
09:56<blathijs>So if you give a way the binary for free, you can't say "you can get the source only if you pay $lots for the binary"
09:56<blathijs>But if you don't give the binary away for free and only sell it for $lots, there is no need to release the source publically
09:57<blathijs>However, once anyone pays $lots and gets the source, I think they must also receive the right to further distribute the (changed) source
09:58<krinn>It's like a car: you buy a car and then you see a note : that car only start with girl. If that is valid to have such restriction, that restriction must be publicy claim first
09:59<blathijs>I don't think any comparisons with buying physical stuff is applicable here - what counts is the terms of the GPL
09:59<blathijs>Also, I'm not completely following everything you are saying, not all of your sentences seem correct :-(
09:59<krinn>get it? you cannot hide the written offer behind the selling of the binary. Just like you cannot hide the fact a car that everyone knows should be use by male/female can only be use by female.
10:10<Eddi|zuHause> <blathijs> The GPL doesn't say you must provide the source to everyone, only to people that you also provide the binary to. <-- i've been saying the exact same thing.
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: the binary, the license and the written offer are sold as a bundle. you cannot have one without the other
10:13<krinn>no you're wrong, the license itself must be public avaiable to user
10:14<blathijs>krinn: Can you point out where in the GPL it says that?
10:14<@planetmaker>blathijs, the FAQ to the GPL says it somewhat different:
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>"user" is _ANYONE WHO PAID_
10:15<@planetmaker> Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party
10:15<@planetmaker>any third party is anyone whatsoever, Eddi|zuHause
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: NOT THE POINT
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>i said this three times now
10:15<krinn>it's state "anybody who requests" not "anybody that have buy the binary"
10:16<@planetmaker>that's a quote from the license, Eddi|zuHause . That's the point
10:17<blathijs>planetmaker: The written offer is valid for anyone, but only if _you get the offer_ (possibly indirectly)
10:17<@planetmaker>you yelling, Eddi|zuHause, doesn't make your right ;)
10:17<krinn>no: the written offer is valid for anyone as soon as the written offer exists
10:17<blathijs>If you don't have the offer (because you didn't buy the binary and didn't get the offer along with the binary from someone else who bougth the binary) you are not entitled to receive the source
10:18<krinn>that still won't make it true :)
10:18<@planetmaker>blathijs, *anyone* who passes on the binary, must - by the license terms - pass on the offer
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: no, they must make a new offer
10:19<@planetmaker>wrong. Read the last paragraph of §3
10:19<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: planetmaker is right there, you are allowed to pass on the offer, which is why the license states the "any third party" part. You are _allowed_ to pass on the actual source or a new offer instead, I presume.
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>we're discussing like 5 different things
10:19<krinn>this mean planetmaker buy programZ, planetmaker gave me programZ and i can ask you to provide me source, i don't need to ask planetmaker as he didn't 1/ sell it to me (no commercial operation) 2/ didn't modify it himself
10:20<peter1139>BAD FEATURES
10:20<@planetmaker>convenient red-herring now, Eddi|zuHause. Just admit you didn#t read §3 really
10:21<blathijs>In any case, I think the practical value of this discussion mostly boils down to the difference between "nobody bought the binary yet" and "at least one person bought the binary", since in the latter case the binary, source and written offer can be freely redistributed and assumed to be "in the wild"
10:21<krinn>i admit i was wrong on one thing: If you sell the program and source are include with it, you are then allow to not have a written offer. This time, i must buy the program and get the source with it.
10:21<TinoDidriksen>Why does FOSS licensing come up every 3 months in this channel?
10:22<@planetmaker>every 3 months a new person asks about it. One way or another
10:22<@planetmaker>and it's not a bad thing to know your license terms ;)
10:22<krinn>well, i din't asked, it start from "written offer must be on paper" :)
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>there are valid 3 scenarios: 1) you can pass on the written offer itself, after you have bought it (then you give up the right to ask for sources by yourself) 2) you can give away the binary (as in not keeping it), along with the written offer (then you give up the right to distribute), 3) you make new copies of the program and pass them out (then you have to make a new offer)
10:23<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, read the last paragraph of §3. The use of "3rd party" clearly contradicts your statements
10:23<@planetmaker>especially interpretation 3) is wrong
10:24<@planetmaker>I can give you openttd and say to get sources from the website. And you can hand that on and say the same
10:24<@planetmaker>no need to renew anything or write snail-mail letters about that
10:24<@planetmaker>the license doesn't say so. Written things can be electronic since the creation of gpl
10:25<krinn>it would be a bit strange a GPL that was made to cover electronic code, isn't thinking about using electronic media to carry it
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: you can GIVE the offer to a 3rd party (scenario 1), but you cannot MAKE COPIES OF THE OFFER
10:26<krinn>lol yes
10:26<krinn>the only thing that stop the offer is the experiation date of the offer
10:26<@planetmaker>of course I can. I can keep my copy. And give it to you, too. Then the offer for source is valid for you and me
10:26<krinn>better put one, and no less than 3 years !
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: and 3c) does not apply since we're talking about paid (commercial) distribution
10:28<krinn>if planetmaker buy openttd from you with the written offer to send source, i can ask you source too if planetmaker gave it to me
10:28<krinn>and no, i didn't buy you the program myself!
10:28<krinn>And this as long as the written offer tell me i could : at minimum 3 years
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: no, but SOMEONE has to buy it
10:28<@planetmaker>we're not talking the case that it hasn't been distributed
10:29<@planetmaker>then we need no license
10:29<krinn>yes, but you then now (that must be french exception), fall into the "abusive close in contrat"
10:30<krinn>if GPL allow you to query source, except if limited by written offer, you must provide the written offer so anyone can see the conditions that limit the license
10:30<@planetmaker>but if I sell one copy, I must offer source access to anyone
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: no. to anyone WHO CAN SHOW THE WRITTEN OFFER
10:30<krinn>just like if anyone can buy a car that is know to be use by male or female, you cannot hide the fact only female can drive it until the sell is done.
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10:31*blathijs is inclined to agree with Eddi|zuHause on this particular point, though I'm not entirely sure
10:31<blathijs>The license does not say "the offer is only valid to anyone who can show it", so it boils down to how an "offer" is defined I guess
10:33<krinn>The license term can be read by anyone, as soon as you sell something with a "special use case ; a license" you must provide access to the license.
10:33<@planetmaker>yes, but the offer is transferrable and copy-able
10:33<@planetmaker>copy-able derived from 3b: " give *any* third party,..."
10:33<krinn>and nobody can hide a GPL is GPL. And if nobody tell me a written offer limit it, i have no restriction and the license is apply
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: very much no. the written offer is transferrable, but not copyable
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: if you want to make copies, you must make an own offer
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>if then someone activates that offer, you can activate the original offer that you kept
10:37<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: I'm not so sure about that. Is there any written evidence for it?
10:37<krinn>they must pass along a copy of this written offer <- no transfert : copy
10:38<krinn>planetmaker giving me the program doesn't mean he lost his right to claim source from you
10:38<krinn>we're just now 2 that can claim it
10:38<@planetmaker>the main problem is Eddi|zuHause interprets 3rd party different than we do.
10:38<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: Also, that would very much contradict the goal of the "any third party" part: If I receive a written offer from you and then redistribute the binary to a few other people, I should be allowed to pass on the written offer and have them contact you directly for the source. That's how I understand the intent.
10:38<@planetmaker>he thinks that 3rd party is direct clients of the one selling. I dispute that interpretation
10:39<krinn>3rd party is me, planemaker is 2nd, and 1rd is the seller
10:39<@planetmaker>as direct clients are not 3rd-party but 2nd party (if such term exists)
10:39<krinn>and peter1139 would be a poor 4rd as he is too slow, but now you must provide source to 3 guys :)
10:40<krinn>and so until the written offer expire (and i hope you did add a date limit in it)
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>blathijs: for the "i give it to a few friends" you have 3c)
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>blathijs: but then you don't include the original offer, just the information regarding the offer
10:41<@planetmaker>which is a copy of the offer. That's what I say
10:42<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: Oh right. Looking at 3c now, I think that means that _if_ you distribute commercially, you must make your own offer or provide the source
10:42<krinn>yep a copy not a transfert, so planetmaker won't lost his right to claim them by giving it to someone else
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10:42<krinn>blathijs yeah!!!
10:42<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: So if I buy the source from you and then freely publish it on the internet, I'm allowed to include your offer. If I re-sell, then I must make my own offer or supply source directly.
10:43<@planetmaker>might be the difference
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>blathijs: something like that
10:43<krinn>right! and if you forget to add a date limit, the written offer have none
10:43<krinn>and the date limit cannot be less than 3 years
10:44<@planetmaker>probably I could refuse after 3 years. But in times of VCS that's a stupid argument
10:44<krinn>nope, it's 3 years min, there's no upper limit
10:44<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: But I read "the information you received as to the offer" as the offer itself (the language even suggests that the offer is not intended to be valid-on-presenting, just valid-if-you-know-about-it)
10:44<krinn>something not said in contract is not said
10:44<@planetmaker>it's a matter of being able to prove, blathijs :)
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>blathijs: well i could put a license code in the offer, and ask for that code.
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>blathijs: which has no effect whatsoever. but i could do it
10:45<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: Yeah, I think you would be allowed to do that. You wouldn't be allowed to enforce a once-per-code rule, I think though
10:45<krinn>blathijs, in theory yes, but france doesn't allow some unfair offer. Just like any rat close that prevent you from using something because of an hidden restriction
10:46<peter1139>4rd? Crikey.
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>blathijs: but it would prevent any random "i'm feeling lucky" guy asking for stuff that he doesn't actually know
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10:49<blathijs>Is there a specific license dispute that started this, or are we just discussing hypothetically?
10:49<krinn>:) no it start with "written offer must be on paper"
10:50<blathijs>I think we've agreed that that's not true :-)
10:50<krinn>ask Eddi|zuHause
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>blathijs: there's some thread in the forum which was taken out of context somewhere else
10:52<krinn>so part2 is about the "can i hide the written offer"
10:52<krinn>and only gave it if you pay my binary
10:54<blathijs>Ok, so I think the answer to that is yes, you can only give it if you pay the binary. However, you cannot stop others from passing on (copying, if you will) the written offer
10:54<blathijs>Though I don't think we agree on that yet :-)
10:54<krinn>And no :)
10:55<krinn>You can only make the first to pay for the source code only if you include the source with the binary
10:55<krinn>Else you must provide the infamous written offer
10:56<krinn>And as you provide the written offer, you cannot hide that offer because it's an exception to the license.
10:56<@planetmaker>did anyone here buy that scam?
10:56<krinn>And as you must then publicy shown the exception so anyone knows there's one, you provide them the way to get the source, and no, they didn't download or pay it yet
10:57<Xaroth|Work>are you guys still babbling about that?
10:57<Xaroth|Work>bloody hell
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11:01<blathijs>krinn: Why is the written offer an exceptoin to the license? It's something that accompanies the binary you buy. Regarding the "you must know what you're buying beforehand", I'd say it's sufficient to say "when you buy this binary, I'll include a written offer for the source".
11:02<krinn>no the license state you must provide the source
11:02<krinn>only you are able to not provide the source if you use the written offer : it's an exception
11:02<blathijs>or a written offer, right?
11:02<peter1139>How can it be an exception to the license if it's part of it?
11:02<blathijs>Huh? The library says "do a or b", so if you do b, then you're not making an exception to the license?
11:03<krinn>no the binary says, you can do A or B.
11:03<krinn>the license said i mean
11:03<blathijs>You can argue that you must tell people you are going to do "b" before they buy your product, but I don't you can be required to actually _do_ "b" beforehand
11:03<krinn>so license say A: provide source
11:03<krinn>or B: provide a written offer to provide A
11:04<peter1139>Crap, I've lost the train movement patch :S
11:05<krinn>and next to that you have the state of B : written offer have a time limit minimum of 3 years, no upper time limit, and you cannot restrict it and only ask shipping cost or cd/dvd writing cost for it
11:06<krinn>so if you don't provide A, you must provide B. And you cannot ask money for B. Sure you can hide B to everyone eyes, but if you hide B to everyone then everyone can safely assume A is the norm and apply
11:07<krinn>So to make sure everyone knows B is apply, you must provide the conditions of B, and the conditions provide anyone how to get the source for free...
11:07<krinn>As you see, you have only way to sell the binary : state you sell the binary with the source to avoid using B option
11:07<blathijs>krinn: I still think that just saying "I will provide a written offer after purchase" is enough.
11:08<krinn>yeah, but it might depend on country for that. But in mine, you cannot hide a restriction that will influence choice of buyer.
11:08<Pinkbeast>blathijs: Not even that, from the GPL. Of course, I might enquire which you plan to do before giving you money.
11:08<krinn>Per example: WTF ! i wouln't had buy it if i knew i could only get source for 3 years...
11:09<Pinkbeast>krinn: That's between you and the seller, nothing to do with the GPL.
11:09<krinn>yes, it's not the GPL that cover that, but your country code of commerce
11:09<krinn>it's not a fair sell, as you hide to the buyer limitation
11:10<krinn>and i'm sure most european country have such a protection
11:10<Pinkbeast>That's also probably not true since I'm _buying_ the binary, not access to the source.
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11:10<krinn>The problem is your buying to binary without knowning a limitation.
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11:11<krinn>It might be legal in your country, but like i said, selling a car in france and hidding the fact the car need coffee as fuel is not accept
11:11<peter1139>Huh, it's part of the license, of course you know.
11:11<blathijs>krinn: That comparison does not hold, though
11:11<Pinkbeast>Bogus analogy. It's not a limitation on the use of the binary.
11:12<krinn>It's a limitation on the license
11:12<Pinkbeast>peter1139: Why? To receive GPLed software I don't have to agree to the GPL, let alone read it.
11:12<blathijs>krinn: It's like buying a car and getting an offer for a free carwash that's only valid 3 months. You can't complain that you didn't know the carwash was only valid for three months before you bought the car.
11:12<krinn>blathijs, exact!
11:13<krinn>but you can complain if nobody tell you it was only for 3 months
11:13<Pinkbeast>(Likewise Eddi's reference in the thread to the final recipient as a "licensee" is spurious).
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11:13<krinn>because some guy would just buy that model not for the car itself, some other model might be better, but because of the unlimited car wash
11:13<blathijs>Pinkbeast: Good point about not beeing the licensee if you don't redistribute
11:14<Pinkbeast>krinn: Did I buy "binary", or "binary and source access"? That depends on what the seller offered. If the former, you don't have a leg to stand on.
11:15<krinn>in all case, the source access is grant by the license, either directly with the binary, or later because of the written offer.
11:15<krinn>and only the time on the written offer can limit your ability to access it
11:15<Pinkbeast>Obviously, yes, but if I just agreed to buy the binary, I can't complain about which of those I got.
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11:16<krinn>Pinkbeast, if you know the rule prior to do it yes, but for that the rule must be tell
11:16<krinn>and telling the rule is telling the content of the written offer. And that content tell you how to get the source ^^
11:16<Pinkbeast>In the rather stretched analogy, after you buy the car, the seller says "Well, I have to offer you either unlimited washing, or washing for three months; so it's the latter". You've got nothing to complain about.
11:17<Pinkbeast>That doesn't make sense. I'm not in violation of EU contract law if I sell you a binary and afterwards give you something extra.
11:17<Pinkbeast>And I'm not in violation of the GPL if that something extra meets its conditions.
11:17<krinn>You don't give me an extra, you must provide it
11:18<krinn>every cars comes with the washing!
11:18<krinn>the only limit is about the time you get the washing
11:18<Pinkbeast>Just because I had (by the GPL) to give it to you does not mean it was not an extra on top of our commercial transaction.
11:19<krinn>you can tell anyone it's extra to have 5 wheel, but you cannot state it's a commercial extra to get a car with 4 wheels
11:19<Pinkbeast>Plainly when you buy one of the very many bits of consumer electronics with GPLed code embedded they do not say up front how they plan to distribute the source, and this does not violate consumer protection law.
11:19<Pinkbeast>You can _if_ we agreed to sell you a 3-wheeled car.
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11:21<krinn>Pinkbeast, they are violating GPL, they must provide source with it, or way to get it, even if it's a fridge
11:21<Pinkbeast>krinn: 1) but they don't violate the GPL by not saying up front how they will distribute the source
11:21<Pinkbeast>2) a violation of the GPL is not a violation of consumer protection law.
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11:22<krinn>2/ for the one or the other reason, they still violate a law
11:22<Pinkbeast>So if when I get home and open the fridge, there's my written offer; fine, no GPL violation.
11:22<Pinkbeast>And I didn't know up front they were going to do that, but no consumer protection issue; I was buying a fridge, not "fridge + source".
11:23<Pinkbeast>Which law has been violated in this case?
11:23<krinn>it would be harder for a judge to tell a fridge with a limited written offer in time hurt you badly if you didn't knew before the time was limited yes
11:23<krinn>but it's easy for a program
11:24<Pinkbeast>No, it would be impossible in either case if my agreement with the seller said nothing about source code.
11:24<Pinkbeast>I wasn't trying to buy source; I can't complain I don't then like how it was distributed.
11:24<krinn>Per example, there's value for code, who cares about Windows2k, you can buy it already. But if today microsoft sold a windows + sourcecode, even with a higher price, you can be sure they will sold it a lot
11:24<Pinkbeast>That seems completely irrelevant.
11:24<krinn>so there's a price or value for program code, and buying a program can be only made to get your hands on the code, not the program by itself
11:25<Pinkbeast>That also seems completely irrelevant.
11:25<krinn>yes it is, GPL provide code, buying a program GPL you can only do it for the code
11:26<Pinkbeast>Then you should agree with the seller than you are buying access to the source. If you don't, you don't have a leg to stand on.
11:26<krinn>not if the GPL provide it to you
11:26<Pinkbeast>That's a separate issue; the seller does have to meet the conditions of the GPL, but they did so with the written offer.
11:27<krinn>buyig GPL program offer value vs non GPL binary, you will have ability to adapt it to other OS, or just newer version
11:27<Pinkbeast>That is reiterating the previous obvious irrelevancy.
11:27<krinn>it's ok then as long as written offer is tell
11:27<Pinkbeast>You've just made that up.
11:28<krinn>or at least the limitation. One can hide the written offer but state "we limit download of source code upto year 2018"
11:28<Pinkbeast>Again, you've just made that up.
11:29<krinn>so nothing more to say then
11:30<Pinkbeast>What else is there to say? Consumer law: I offer to sell you a binary, making no mention of source code. I supply what I offered. That is absolutely legal.
11:31<Pinkbeast>GPL: I must then supply you a written offer. I do so. GPL: absolutely satisfied.
11:32<krinn>for GPL part yes
11:33<krinn>tell me limit to the written offer and it's fine.
11:33<Pinkbeast>No. I never mentioned source code in the offer.
11:33<Pinkbeast>That's completely legal. Goods must be "as described". I only ever offered to sell you the binary.
11:34<krinn>No, it would be like i only said i sell a car, when one can expect the car comes with wheels
11:34<krinn>if you remove the wheels, you must tell them you sell a car without wheel
11:35<krinn>all cars comes with wheels (well as of today)
11:35<Pinkbeast>But the overwhelming majority of software does not come with source. The majority of GPLed software ordinary people use does not come with source.
11:35<krinn>But the overwhelming majority of GPL software do
11:35<Pinkbeast>No, it doesn't.
11:36<krinn>Well, i didn't count, i let you do if you like
11:36<Pinkbeast>Got the source for your ADSL router? Your phone? Your washing machine?
11:36<SpComb>pretty rare to download a GPL binary with bundled source
11:36<peter1139>Show me source code on your Linux installation CD.
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11:36<krinn>peter1139, sorry i use gentoo
11:36<krinn>so yes i can show you them easy
11:36<SpComb>what was this tldr discussion about? Limited-time GPL source offers?
11:36<krinn>Pinkbeast, and free (illiad) is use because of that
11:37<Pinkbeast>Embedded systems mean no-source wins. Beardy types like us use Linux; _everyone_ has electronics with embedded GPLed software.
11:37<krinn>Embedded system without source using GPL are infringing it
11:37<peter1139>Android phones, eh?
11:37<krinn>android is GPL ?
11:37<Pinkbeast>Not if they supply a written offer, etc etc.
11:37<peter1139>krinn, it uses a Linux kernel...
11:38<krinn>i'm not phone specialist, but i'm sure you can get source for it then
11:38<krinn>i have no phone with android to tell you
11:39<blathijs>Pinkbeast: FWIW, I agree entirely with everything you've said, thanks :-)
11:39<Pinkbeast>blathijs: I'm stuck at home ill so I've not got much else to do. :-)
11:40<krinn>for your router issue, there's a real case there
11:40<Pinkbeast>krinn: You've missed the point. They have to provide access _somehow_.
11:41<Pinkbeast>That does not mean they have to provide access by your preferred mechanism, or disclose what the mechanism is before purchase.
11:41<krinn><Pinkbeast> Got the source for your ADSL router?
11:42<krinn>it's not because it's embed that you can dismiss it.
11:42<Pinkbeast>krinn: Stick to the point, please. My point there was in fact that much of the GPLed software out there comes with (at best) a written offer, not that some router vendors infringe.
11:42<Pinkbeast>So the idea you have that the buyer of a GPLed binary can complain if they get a written offer because that is totally unprecedented does not stand up to examination.
11:43<krinn>Pinkbeast, i hardly find any that comes with a written offer.
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11:43<krinn>in real, i never see any that have such a written offer as of today.
11:44*blathijs thinks krinn wants to argue that when you agre to buy GPL software, you can expect (in the consumer law sense of expect) to receive source, just like you can expect to get four wheels when you agree to buy a car
11:44<krinn>well, it's not extra super expectation from a gpl or a car no?
11:44<blathijs>krinn: They're probably hidden in the EULA that you (and everyone else) didn't read either?
11:44<krinn>can you point me to one written offer?
11:45<Pinkbeast>I think there's maybe something to that (although in practice I think you'd never explain it to a court), but I don't think you can complain that you don't like the GPL-permitted mechanism for getting it.
11:45<Pinkbeast>I got one in the box for _my_ ADSL router
11:45*blathijs had a few of those flyers with GPL license and offers as well, but of course I tossed them out :-)
11:45<krinn>well, i my dsl has provide me a cd with the source
11:45<@planetmaker>wow. that's rare :)
11:46<SpComb>I downloaded some source and compiled the binary for my router
11:46<SpComb>should be that way for all consumer routers!
11:46<krinn>and i'm sure they have put it also on some url
11:50<krinn>so really, i just never seen any gpl with the written offer, honestly
11:50<krinn>i'm not saying it doesn't exist
11:51<krinn>but it should be execption, but like i said before i use gentoo, and most are gpl or other source licensing, only few soft are close one (nvidia driver per example) and that kind doesn't need any written offer anyway
11:52<krinn>your OS might provide you more gpl kind of soft that comes with written offer, but i never seen one
11:57<krinn>Should i take silent as : fuck Krinn is right? or hell we're bored to death.
11:58<Pinkbeast>No, I'm just bored of explaining it to you.
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11:58<krinn>Fine, i could agree to that :)
12:00<blathijs>krinn: I don't think the "Is anyone actually _using_ the written offer thing" is relevant at all to the discussion, really. I think Pinkbeast only mentioned it to illustrate that it's uncommon for software to ship with source
12:00<blathijs>But I've bored as well :-)
12:00<krinn>lol i agree, but not if the software is GPL
12:01<Phreeze>again that license discussion :D
12:01<krinn>nope it just end on bored
12:01<Phreeze>glad it's over for my thread....everything gplv2 and i'm happy ;)
12:02*krinn thinks he wins anyway with the kick ass "show me one that is with a written offer"
12:03<@planetmaker>ah, FLHerne is here. He might want to read up on OpenTTD's directory structure in chapter 4. His knowledge is outdated by ~>3 years ;)
12:03<FLHerne>planetmaker: Eh?
12:03-!-avdg_ [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:04<FLHerne>Ah yes, we have a newgrf dir now. Useful
12:04<FLHerne>But then, at 1am I never have a clue about anything
12:04<@planetmaker>and a baseset. and a screenshot and ...
12:04<@planetmaker>yet you give advise based on very outdated dir structure ;)
12:05<@planetmaker>thus update your knowledge and keep giving support :P
12:05<SpComb>edit newgrf.lst
12:05<SpComb>no, my memory fails me
12:05<FLHerne>It's less wrong than content_download/data :P
12:06<Phreeze>what's a directory ? :>
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>thingie where phone numbers are listed
12:06<Phreeze>ah yeah right
12:06<FLHerne>Phreeze: Definitely not a folder ;-)
12:06<Phreeze>i see openttd 2.0, only an exe, rest remains in the cloud
12:07*Phreeze out
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>openttd 2.0 will be software-as-a-service. since we didn't switch to gpl 3.0, we don't have to provide source anymore
12:09<Phreeze>i dont know why, but i think i'm too stupid to do a correct XCOPY MASSAFCKIFNEDGFJBNZHçRB(=ç
12:10<Phreeze>my batch doesn't keep the directory strucutre while xcopying....wwwwtf
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>xcopy /?
12:12<Phreeze>i use doscommands since 1990 when i was 7 years old...
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't used xcopy in about 20 years now...
12:12<Phreeze>xcopy /Y /E src\*.* F:\cfl-trains\
12:12-!-Myhorta [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:12<Phreeze>should put the whole src folder with subdirs to the cfl-trains folder
12:12<Phreeze>so that i later on have.: \cfl-trains\src\gfx\CFL2200.png
12:13<Phreeze>instead, the "src" fails to be copied with
12:13-!-ST2 [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:13<Phreeze>now i have a cfl-trains\gfx\*.png
12:13*Phreeze feels like a noob now
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>yes. use xcopy /Y /E src F:blah
12:13<krinn>i don't even remember xcopy, was ship default with dos?
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: i think it was new in dos 5.0
12:14<Phreeze>has more options
12:14<krinn>i'm not sure i have use v5, i remember i was swapping dos version to use hdd or floppy (the earlier was cool, but eat lot of mem)
12:14<Phreeze>eddi, i tried and used that, but it just puts the subfolders and files from the "src" directory directly to the cfl-trains...
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>Phreeze: then do F:\blah\src
12:15<@planetmaker>aha. For my router I have to request the source via e-mail. I'll try. I'm curious how it goes :)
12:15<@planetmaker>interestingly the written offer is only visible if you un-tar the image file
12:16<krinn>did they limit the time in it?
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: not when you log into the router?
12:18<@planetmaker>not at all
12:18<Phreeze>Eddi|zuHause yep, i must include the destionation folder too ... was pretty sure it worked other way round too...perhaps with the normal copy cmd
12:18<@planetmaker>I found no license info anywhere, also not in the manual
12:19<@planetmaker>the manual has the usual proprietary bla bla license stuff
12:19<krinn>they add the written offer but not the license ? :)
12:19<Phreeze>sue them ^^
12:19<@planetmaker>krinn, the "written offer" you only get when you tar xf firmware_update_file.image
12:20<krinn>well, nothing wrong i suppose a cool company can do such similar offer even not GPLed soft in use
12:20<@planetmaker>the web frontend might not fall under GPL, so slyly one can argue to not display any license there
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>"Die Lizenzbestimmungen finden Sie auf der beiliegenden Produkt-CD in der Datei „License.txt“." ... hm, i wonder where that landed
12:21<krinn>planetmaker, i have no licensing info in mine too, netgear are cool but not the coolest in the world :)
12:22<krinn>But at least, they put 0 copyright that i could find, just nothing at all
12:22<Phreeze> might find then some china-routers with netgear firmware ?:)
12:22<Phreeze>(btw netgear wifi sticks, back at the time, were shiiiiiiiiç%ç% )
12:23<@planetmaker>hm... bitches:
12:25<Phreeze>smells combined licenses :)
12:25<krinn>yep and the disclaimer about the firmware itself :)
12:25<krinn>smelly router
12:25<Phreeze>at least it's a stable router ;)
12:26<krinn>i'm not sure what stable could be, beyond it works
12:26<@planetmaker>the firmware actually is newer than that copyright let you know. It's Feb. 2014
12:26<@planetmaker>(it's a Fritz box from AVM)
12:27<@planetmaker>so I asked for the images of the current and previous firmware versions. Let's see :) I have both images :P
12:28<krinn>that would be interesting to know what they answer.
12:29<krinn>well, everyone could expect the source of the open source programs use in it :P
12:30<krinn>but i don't why such offer i think you'll get link to busybox or something while they should provide their own busybox version if modified, and pretty sure they don't use a stock one (replace busybox with iptable...)
12:30<@planetmaker>linux 2.4 or 2.6 it seems. From install shell script
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12:31<Eddi|zuHause>you can telnet into the fritz box
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>there's a phone code to activate and deactivate telnet interface
12:31<krinn>that's some kind of default router from german telecom provider?
12:31<@planetmaker>yes, that, too
12:31<@planetmaker>but they also sell it normally
12:32<krinn>lol i didn't think to telnet my router, but it works too
12:32<@planetmaker>was better than the one I had before
12:32<Phreeze>it's one of the best router, but not sure if moddable
12:33<Phreeze>every good provider sells them in my country. they are even deploying latest models now, 7490
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>there's "freetz" which you can install on it
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>(but you lose all warranty)
12:33<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, there are things like that, you can change country, but it remain the same
12:34<krinn>warranty lost for any reason is popular
12:34<Phreeze>planetmaker : what exactly isn't finished in the mars set ?
12:34<Phreeze>i see coded trains etc here:
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: well you can regain warranty by resetting to the original image before asking for warranty
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12:35<Phreeze>(ok alignment of the purchase sprites is not fixed yet)
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12:36<krinn>do you have syslog feature too?
12:36<krinn>sending log to syslog
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>what do you mean?
12:36<krinn>the router log is sent to another host
12:37<@planetmaker>Phreeze, lots of things not finished, basically everything not :)
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>never tried
12:37<krinn>i never login it so, i just look at my log
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12:39<Phreeze>you can let the box send you stuff by mail ^^
12:39<@planetmaker>I don't even know myself the exact status of all of them :)
12:39<@planetmaker>I think trains are not yet finished. Industries aren't for sure. No idea about houses :)
12:40<Phreeze>cant find a page where you can specify syslog server :-/
12:40<Phreeze>i only can code trains ^^
12:42<Phreeze>isn't zephyris in IRC from time to time ?
12:42<@planetmaker>if time-to-time translates to yearly, then yes
12:42<Phreeze> regularly once a year
12:42<@planetmaker>I'd not even count on that ;)
12:43<krinn>Phreeze, with a netgear to ?
12:43<krinn>it's last line option of Logs category
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12:47<DanMacK>Hey all
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12:49<@planetmaker>hm, for sure that's snow outside. And the wind cannot decide on a direction. Only on 7 and above ;)
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12:55<krinn> <- but not all have the option, it sucks i better remember that when changing it
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13:02<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: there's a reason why "april weather" is a common figure of speech
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>hm, the web interface of the router is not responding, but it's still routing
13:05<frosch123>the login is exclusive
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13:05<frosch123>only one user can access the router interface at a time
13:05<frosch123>currently the nsa is using it
13:06<@planetmaker>it's a single-user system. So yes
13:06<frosch123>what do you think was the reason for windows becoming multi-user?
13:12<peter1139>Home routers are so shit :(
13:12<peter1139>And all those GPL violations...
13:12<peter1139>Whoops, not that again.
13:13<frosch123>at least there is no admin to break it
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13:31<Phreeze>[18:49:38] <@planetmaker> hm, for sure that's snow outside. And the wind cannot decide on a direction. Only on 7 and above ;)
13:31<Phreeze>snow ???
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13:44<@planetmaker>snow. yes. No longer though
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26464 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2014-04-14 17:45:28 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>belarusian - 4 changes by Wowanxm
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan - 47 changes by juanjo
13:45<@DorpsGek>norwegian_bokmal - 3 changes by cuthbert
13:45<@DorpsGek>polish - 4 changes by wojteks86
13:45<@DorpsGek>brazilian_portuguese - 4 changes by Tucalipe
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14:09<Wolf01>hi hi
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14:22<andythenorth>is Wallyweb trying to single-handedly unpick software copyright?
14:22<andythenorth>that's a bold venture
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14:35<peter1139>That was short, even for him.
14:43<@planetmaker>below average, yes
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15:11<@Alberth>hi hi
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15:14<rubidium>bye andy ;)
15:15<@Alberth>hi hi andy
15:16<andythenorth>it’s a good forum day
15:16<frosch123>is there such a thing as a "town council"?
15:16<frosch123>or are there only "city council"s?
15:16<FLHerne>frosch123: Yes
15:17<andythenorth>there are many councils
15:17<andythenorth>in many countries
15:17<FLHerne>Not sure if there's such a thing in current UK adminish stuff, but it's certainly a recognisable term
15:18<andythenorth>frosch123: what’s the context?
15:19<frosch123>ottd has a very specific meanings for city vs. town
15:20<frosch123> <- fs#5988
15:20<andythenorth>for EN British, town council is fine
15:27<frosch123> <- STR_CONFIG_SETTING_RESTRICT_DROPDOWN_HELPTEXT is certainly hard to find a meaningful text for
15:27<andythenorth>it’s because it’s a tricky feature :)
15:28<frosch123>maybe "restrict the list below by seemingly random criterions"
15:29<andythenorth>or confuse andythenorth
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15:50<NGC3982>"He left us a cyber footprint. Greg is decrypting the ISP right now"
15:50<NGC3982>CSI <3.
15:51<frosch123>does he use a screen magnifier to read the isp?
15:51*FLHerne prevents his computer from being hacked by unplugging the monitor :P
15:52<Phreeze>never watched csi
15:52<Phreeze>and never will
15:52<FLHerne>Or not, that was NCIS? Same thing, anyway
15:52<frosch123>Phreeze: neither did i, but you cannot escape from certain images on the internet
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16:11<Supercheese>Heh, I just find these oddities in tooltips while translating them
16:11<@planetmaker>gather them :)
16:11<rubidium>anything techy in TV/movies is iffy at best
16:11<rubidium>even IP addresses
16:11<Supercheese>I did, and frosch already has patches to fix them as above
16:12<Supercheese>I had reported them on flyspray
16:12<frosch123>i still have no convincing text for the filter dropdown
16:12<Supercheese>Yeah, 'tis tricky
16:12<frosch123>maybe the forum is right, that it is wrong then :)
16:13<Supercheese>if the base strings are changed, that should mark translated strings as "outdated" or such in the webtranslator, yes?
16:13<frosch123>"strings needing validation"
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16:26<Supercheese>Eh, the en_US constant use of "Streetcar" over "Tram" really bugs me
16:26<Supercheese>I've never once called them streetcars
16:27<Supercheese>perhaps it's an East Coast thing
16:29<peter1139>Hmm, my RC (actually IR) helicopter only lasts about 1 minute :(
16:31<andythenorth>signals in tunnels
16:32<Supercheese>signa in cuniculis
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16:42<FLHerne>peter1139: Mine does too. Aws a bit better when it was new
16:42<peter1139>Probably was but I never played with it much really, heh.
16:43<peter1139>And as a cheap plaything it's hardly worth finding a replacement battery if such a thing exists, heh.
16:43<peter1139>, heh.
16:43<@planetmaker>hm, our money is (internally) always calculated in GBP and only for display purposes converted to whatever the user choose, right?
16:43<peter1139>Feel free to change that.
16:44<@planetmaker>so in principle we could use floating point conversions?
16:44<peter1139>Those integer multiples are a bitch.
16:44<frosch123>planetmaker: yes, you cannot make money by trading
16:44<@planetmaker>how's the feeling to adjust the rates to somewhat current rates like in FS 5987?
16:44<frosch123>planetmaker: never do floating points :)
16:44<@planetmaker>for display-only?
16:44<peter1139>frosch123, silly
16:45<frosch123>"this costs 19.95" - i have "19.95" - "not enough money"
16:45<peter1139>Round up the costs, heh
16:45<@planetmaker>display_val = (floor)(money * exchange_rate)
16:45<peter1139>I dunno
16:45<peter1139>planetmaker, nah
16:46<frosch123>planetmaker: anyway, aren't our conversion rates exactly those from 2050?
16:46<frosch123>when the game ends
16:46<@planetmaker>haha :)
16:46<peter1139>problem is you round the displayed cash, which doesn't help
16:47<frosch123>anyway, i wonder whether we shouldn't do the reverse
16:48<frosch123>why arbitrary precise conversion rates which result in silly things like loan in 145872.412 steps?
16:49<frosch123>so, maybe we should only have factors like 2, 5, 10, 20, 50 and such
16:49<frosch123>so round numbers stay round
16:50<@planetmaker>Then we just should get rid of all factors, making them 1. And just call the currencies a custom "unit"
16:50<@planetmaker>(which is what I do for myself actually. Custom currency € with exchange rate 1:1 to internal money)
16:50<frosch123>well, while prices are non-sense anyway, a cost of 10000 lira is still different than 10000 pound
16:51<@planetmaker>exactly. prices are all nonsense
16:51<frosch123>i guess prices need to match what the player can imagine or so
16:51<@planetmaker>so it could just be 10000 money units
16:51<@planetmaker>however you call the unit :)
16:52<andythenorth>paxdist is a lot of fun
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16:53<frosch123>but yeah, the extreme case would be to restrict multipliers to 1, 10, 100, 1000 :)
16:53<peter1139>Too many passengers :(
16:53<frosch123>only move the digit
16:54<frosch123>but 2 and 5 are not bad either
16:54<peter1139>Make GBP 100
16:54<@planetmaker>we'll get flamed for such decision ;)
16:54<peter1139>Then shift right twice.
16:54<peter1139>Instant fixed-point maths.
16:54<@planetmaker>with GBP = 100, other factors are easier
16:54<frosch123>we can make a forum poll :)
16:55<peter1139>Just makes that 64 bit limit a bit smaller...
16:55<peter1139>Assuming it's still there.
16:55<@planetmaker>increasing money accuracy requires a bigger money var, though
16:55<frosch123>do you want loan go in steps of 19748 DM ? or 10000 DM? or 20000 DM ?
16:55<frosch123>planetmaker: if yuo move the digit, you do not need to increase it :p
16:55<__ln__>it would be so wrong to make GBP be something that metric!
16:55<@planetmaker>I anyway only use ctrl+click
16:55<frosch123>you can do that in the string drawing :p
16:55<@planetmaker>the loan steps are stupid anyway - or are they meanwhile adjusted to inflation?
16:55<peter1139>__ln__, well... GBP _is_ metric.
16:56<@planetmaker>20k steps when an engine costs 1.5 million is stupid anyway
16:56<peter1139>No wait, that's decimal
16:56<frosch123>planetmaker: max loan does not increase either, does it?
16:56<peter1139>Anyone fancy implement LSD support?
16:56<frosch123>i cannot remember
16:56<__ln__>peter1139: currently, and for now, yes.
16:56<@planetmaker>I think load max amount does
16:56<@planetmaker>LSD, the thing the Beatles sung of in Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds?
16:57<peter1139>max loan increases with inflation, yeah
16:57<peter1139>LSD... pounds, shillings & pence
16:57<frosch123>hmm, yeah, indeed, max loan grows
16:57<peter1139>not directly with inflation though
16:57<__ln__>let us not forget William Shatner's cover version of Lucy in the Sky.
16:58<peter1139>Please, I'd rather we did.
16:58<frosch123>max loan is "(intial_max_loan * inflation) // loan_interval * loan_interval"
16:58<__ln__>for those using spotify:
16:59<peter1139>"Log in to listen for free" ... why even bother with logins...
16:59<@planetmaker>scraping your e-mail and selling it
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17:01<__ln__>why the f does it give a login page without a possibility to open the link in the app... must be some improvement.
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17:21<idl0r>can you guys release 1.4.1 with the most recent fixes of the 1.4 branch? i just tried it from git and it seems the invalid free / crashes have been fixed there
17:21<idl0r>*please release
17:23<@planetmaker>there'll be a 1.4.1-RC1 soon
17:23<idl0r>great, thanks
17:27*rubidium wonders what commit would've fixed an invalid free
17:30<@planetmaker>only the -q parameter, it seems :)
17:30<@planetmaker>when supplied an invalid filename
17:31<@planetmaker>We should at least address the crash on loading of (some) old savegames
17:31<rubidium>that should yield a SIGSEGV
17:31<rubidium>not an invalid free
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17:36<@planetmaker>idl0r, which crash in particular do you find fixed?
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18:46<mg_>i have a question about dredging sites. how can i unload sand/stone on shore? i can transport it by ship but i can't seem to figure out how to unload it
18:50-!-Eddi|zuHause3 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>mg_: "transfer and leave empty"
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>then pick it up with a train or truck
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>or use cargodist
18:51<mg_>thanks :)
18:52<mg_>its the "transfer" thing
18:52<Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> how's the feeling to adjust the rates to somewhat current rates like in FS 5987? <-- absolutely not. i found it already stupid the last time when DM was changed from 4 to 3
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18:52<Eddi|zuHause>the change serves no purpose whatsoever...
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>plus it "breaks" the euro conversion
19:03<peter1139>Randomise on startup.
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19:10<LordAro>randomise currency on startup
19:11<LordAro>with no option to change it
19:12<peter1139>And why not prices while we're at it.
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19:23<supermop>anyone want to play a fast 128x64 game?
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20:40<supermop>can some callback change passenger decay rate when load percentage is over a certain amount?
20:41<Supercheese>cargo_age_period callback, make it based on cargo_count / cargo_capacity
20:42<Supercheese>So crowded passenger cars are less comfortable and so lowered payment, eh?
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20:48<supermop>i cant think of a good way to model a vehicle with moderately comfortable seats, but some standing room that may well be crush loaded
20:49<supermop>so i was thinking, set capacity to be the crush load, but with a note as to how many seats in the buy menu
20:49<supermop>then if the load is >seat number, switch from slow decay rate to fast decay rate
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20:50<supermop>possibly with 3 levels: all seated, seated with comfortable amount of standees, and crush load
20:51<supermop>but the player has little ability to limit trams loading beyond seated capacity anyway
20:52<supermop>i guess one could use conditional orders
20:54<supermop>i don't want it based on refits, that is player chooses in depot whether a tram has standing passengers or only seated
20:55<Supercheese>Yes, I see what you mean
20:56<supermop>and packed tram lines should be 'punished' but still make money
20:56<supermop>but a tram car running as a light rail to the next town with 100 people hanging off the side should not
20:57<supermop>it would be really cruel if loading time slowed with load too..
21:00<supermop>a bit unrelated:
21:02<supermop>if the connection between a 2-car tram is bigger than 1 meter, would you code it as a 3 part vehicle with a very short middle car?
21:03<Eddi|zuHause>as a personal rule of thumb: i don't create vehicle parts less than 3lu (~6m)
21:05<supermop>i'd say its about 2.5m on this tram, and 4-6 people can stand (uncomfortably) in there
21:06<Supercheese>I don't think loading speed would change much with load percent
21:06<Supercheese>the same people/sec can go through doors
21:06<supermop>i often have to fight my way from my seat to the door though
21:06<Supercheese>ah, if others aren't getting off yeah
21:07<Supercheese>well in OTTD it's everybody-off-everybody-on at every stop
21:07<Eddi|zuHause>but you do that _before_ arriving at the station
21:07<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: yes, i should
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21:08<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i think cargo decay depending on load is a "BAD FEATURE" as long as you can't control it
21:09<supermop>but often in rushhour here you have trams getting delayed because some idiot is standing in the stairwell and there is no room to move in
21:09<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: i think a tram set based on one city is nothing but "Bad Features"
21:12<supermop>but the trams are right here and easy to look at,
21:13<supermop>and i can go ride a progression of models from the 30s through to today when i need to get ideas for stats to make up
21:14<Supercheese>Eh, giving a minor penalty (0-20%) to decay rate when severely overloaded seems fine
21:14<Supercheese>not sure if it's particularly "realistic"
21:14<Supercheese>I don't really ride any rail vehicles... well, ever
21:15<Supercheese>Last time I took public transport was.... uh... twoish years ago?
21:16<supermop>well i pay ~$3.50 no matter how far i ride, how fast the tram gets there, or how crowded it is along the way
21:16<Supercheese>so yeah, "reality" doesn't care how full the trains are
21:16<supermop>but the tram operator isn't exactly who i pay with that fare anyway
21:16<Supercheese>although there may be off-peak tickets or such
21:17<supermop>i pay the regional government, or rather their transit authority a certain amount to load up my fare card
21:17<supermop>and they have a contract with a company that has won a tender to operate the trams
21:18<Supercheese>I'm glad OTTD doesn't try to simulate that, imagine bidding for routes...
21:18<supermop>presumably that authority could pay the operating company based on what ever incentives they chose
21:19<supermop>lets say they agree to pay you $X per passenger mile, but they will penalize you if their constituents are complaining that their tram was too slow, too uncomfortable, or too crowded
21:20<supermop>in which case the ottd model of passenger payments is not too unrealistic
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21:21<Supercheese>Of course, it's up to the set designer, do what you want really
21:22<Supercheese>I like quite a few so-called "bad features"
21:25<supermop>me too
21:26<supermop>that said,
21:27<supermop>i think it would be bad to have capacity for an 80s tram change sometime in the 90s (when they are being refurbished and seats are removed to make more standing room)
21:27<supermop>it would be confusing to have refits with differring capacity and decay rates?
21:29<supermop>especially if they new seats were more comfy, AC was added etc: so the newer refit has even slower decay when half full, but much worse decay when full
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22:10<Supercheese>Sounds tricky
22:10<Supercheese>I didn't think you could limit refits based on current year though
22:10<Supercheese>pretty sure all subtypes are always available
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22:15<Pikka>Supercheese, what makes you think that? :)
22:15<Supercheese>just my recollection
22:15<Supercheese>could easily be wrong
22:16<Pikka>not that all this isn't definitely BAD FEATURES. It might be "realistic" though.
22:22<supermop>can i adjust the spacing between articulated parts of a tram?
22:23<supermop>Pikka: is there any good way to model crush loading vehicles?
22:24<Pikka>you can adjust the spacing by making vehicles shorter or longer, just like with a train
22:25<Pikka>and I don't know
22:25<supermop>i guess you could just make the capacity the same as seat number
22:26<supermop>although that would give newer, larger trams near zero capacity
22:26<Pikka>I mean you can always trade off speed/capacity/loadingspeed etc. but I think once you start refitting between capacities and mucking around with cargo decay you're into TMWFTLB / BAD FEATURE territory
22:27<Pikka>when it comes to capacity, I'm all for the making up numbers that make sense from a gameplay point of view, rather than trying to be "realistic"
22:27<supermop>i certainly dont want to refit capacity - or change it based on year
22:28<supermop>hmm i guess could just make up a number as if all trams old or new were fitted out with some number of 2+2 seating
22:28<supermop>and increase the number of seats with tram size
22:29<supermop>so 30m tram hold twice as many people as a 15m oone, and not go into any further detail
22:31<Supercheese>In reality, the trams have pretty much the same internal space available, regardless of technology
22:31<Supercheese>so if you were aiming to just crap people in church-youth-group style, then they'd be roughly equivalent
22:32<Supercheese>so your idea seems reasonable
22:33<supermop>it seems like there should be some trade offs between the era of high and low floor trams
22:33<supermop>and speed isn't an interesting differentiating factor for RVs
22:34<Supercheese>if that did affect available space, then yeah
22:34<Supercheese>there's always tractive effort and, indirectly, acceleration
22:34<Supercheese>which would probably be more important than max speed in congested urban areas
22:34<supermop>because i don't doubt that by 2050 some company with enough money could make a 300kmh bus if they really wanted to, but it would be useless
22:35<Supercheese>err, tractive effort + power
22:35<supermop>it seems like every 20th C and later tram in melbourne has a top rated speed of 80kmh
22:36<supermop>and i am not interested in either slowing early trams nor making later trams faster than that
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