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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-04-15

---Logopened Tue Apr 15 00:00:24 2014
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00:43<Supercheese>Ugh, translating the zillion advanced settings strings is a slog-and-a-half
00:49<Supercheese>Ahh, totally worth it, I get to use ablative supines
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03:25<DanMacK>@seen andythenorth
03:25<@DorpsGek>DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 10 hours, 19 minutes, and 21 seconds ago: <andythenorth> bye
03:34<peter1139>@seen belugas
03:34<@DorpsGek>peter1139: belugas was last seen in #openttd 3 weeks, 5 days, 18 hours, 13 minutes, and 20 seconds ago: <Belugas> hello
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05:08<Eddi|zuHause>let's just hope they don't do a debian-style "this code throws warnings and looks useless" type of strip down :p
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05:08<peter1139>Weirdly, they appear to be using CVS. Maybe that's an OpenBSD thing o_O
05:11<Xaroth|Work>why would anybody want to use CVS :|
05:14<Eddi|zuHause>using CVS in early university almost made me stop using version control at all
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06:08<peter1139>Cool, my TLS configuration is so secure nothing can connect ;(
06:08<Xaroth|Work>that's how it's supposed to be, right?
06:08<peter1139>Yes yes
06:14*peter1139 cranks it down a couple of notches so that clients can actually connect.
06:14<peter1139>(Except XP)
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>is that one of those things where the machines say: "the world is safest when humans are extinct"?
06:15<peter1139>Nah, it's a "your OS is too old to support TLSv1.2" thing.
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06:58<NGC3982>I hate cars
06:58<NGC3982>I hate, i hate. I hate.
07:00<peter1139>But... do they hate you?
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07:05<NGC3982>I noticed some brake fluid leakage on my v50
07:05<NGC3982>It seems i need to change the full clutch all together
07:05<NGC3982>25% of the cars estimate worth.
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>get a car built before 2000
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>or one built before 1950
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>the newer a product is, the more it is built to break after a certain time
07:19<peter1139>But yeah, also those electronic gimmicks...
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>and this time span reduces
07:19<peter1139>(With lead-free solder)
07:19<NGC3982>That seems way too arbitrary.
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>it's a modern version of inflation
07:20<NGC3982>The car has not been problemativ except that, though.
07:20<NGC3982>But it's just..
07:20<NGC3982>I'm so frustrated right now.
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>they need to sell 7% more cars every year
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>but the target audience does not grow that fast
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>so they need to sell more cars to the same people
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>so they make the cars last shorter, so they have to buy more cars more quickly
07:21<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, studies into the claim that "the newer a product is, the more it is built to break after a certain time" by the Stiftung Warentest found that it cannot be held up with good justification
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>a good conspiracy theory is never defeated by facts :p
07:25<NGC3982>I work with car insurance, and there is a -heavy- difference in the number of machinery faults since 2003-2004.
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>but there certainly are examples for that. like that lightbulbs last exactly 1000 hours, while it's perfectly possible to make ones that last 100000 hours
07:25<NGC3982>So, i do not agree.
07:25<peter1139>NGC3982, more or less? heh
07:25<NGC3982>Way, way less.
07:26<NGC3982>Something happend with the motor industry between 2003-2004. The Swedish market suffered from less than half of it's predicted underwriting on motor/machinery faults.
07:27<NGC3982>But that's just Sweden.
07:27<NGC3982>I have no idea on how the rest of the world works.
07:27<NGC3982>(And it has been like that since).
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: maybe they realized that with all the electronics in there, it's not really possible to repair stuff, so they put more effort in design?
07:29<NGC3982>I don't know.
07:29<NGC3982>Good guess, tho.
07:29*NGC3982 is still pissed of his god damned mind.
07:29<NGC3982>Ass hats.
07:30<NGC3982>The problem is that the clutch cylinder costs roughly 1500SEK
07:30<NGC3982>But changing it requires changing the entire clutch system, and to dismount the engine.
07:31<__ln__>that's only because sweden failed to join the euro.
07:46<NGC3982>tl;dr: Our IT security claims that case is irrelevant for password security.
07:46<NGC3982>And i have no idea why
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07:52<peter1139>And then there are password schemes that only allow a-z and 0-9...
07:52<peter1139>For some reason, banks like them.
08:00<SpComb>SQL injection -proof
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: how does disallowing A-Z make it more SQL-proof?
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>plus, you shouldn't store plain-text passwords anywa
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08:16<NGC3982>peter1139: And insurance companies.
08:16<NGC3982>Only a-z, 0-9 and one special digit.
08:16<NGC3982>though, they do actually allow åäö.
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08:50<@planetmaker>I'm always disgusted again by sites which say like "password max. 10 characters". omg, why?!
08:52<blathijs>Saves on storage costs
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08:58<NGC3982>Storage of what? Bytes?
09:00<@planetmaker>yet I wonder how many people would use much longer passwords?
09:00<@planetmaker>though a pass sentence is easier to remember and more secure :)
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09:08<Flygon>planetmaker: Even worse for the Australian Government's Centrelink online services
09:08<Flygon>7 characters max
09:08<Flygon>My standard password is a smite bit longer than that
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09:18<TinoDidriksen>Max lengths for passwords quite clearly shows that they're storing passwords, instead of hashing them.
09:20<@planetmaker>yeah, made me wonder, too
09:20<@planetmaker>But then, the website I had to register with... they sent back login + password in plaintext in an e-mail to me
09:20<@planetmaker>so wouldn't matter anyway
09:21<@planetmaker>and tbh, the world biggest publishers handle logins just as securely
09:21<@planetmaker>(aka Elsevier)
09:21<@planetmaker>maybe they changed practise meanwhile, dunno
09:25<LordAro>i like how "verified by visa" asks you for particular characters of your password
09:25<LordAro>also showing that they must store it in plain text
09:25<LordAro>or at least an easily reversible algorithm
09:25*peter1139 sets up smokeping to monitor his ADSL.
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09:49<Sacro>LordAro: or they store hashes of the combinations
09:50<LordAro>possibly, but storing hashes of all 3-letter combinations of someone's password? seems unlikely
09:51<@planetmaker>that's not too many. 3 over n
09:52<@planetmaker>nor would they need to save all actually. They could just save a fixed set of combinations
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>well you could use a tricky hash function...
09:53<@planetmaker>like the identity-hash? :D
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>no, i mean one that is homomorphic to leaving out letters
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>but that is very serious maths, i doubt they go through that effort
09:55<Sacro>There's no real reason to either
09:55<Sacro>it's not likely a bank would get their DB compromised
09:55<SpComb>ha ha
09:55<theholyduck>Sacro, well any bank or anything else worth its salt
09:56<Sacro>hashing only slows down the compromising of passwords
09:56<theholyduck>is secured by more than just your password
09:56<Sacro>theholyduck: eh?
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09:56<theholyduck>my bank requires my social security number, my password, and one of 3 physical identification devices
09:56<theholyduck>to log in
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09:57<Sacro>hah, SSN
09:57<@planetmaker>yeah. or the admin's ssh key ;)
09:57<theholyduck>frankly, it doesnt really matter if my bank password is relativly easily remembered or cracked
09:57<theholyduck>the physical component to logging in makes it secure
09:57<Sacro>i have a username, password and fob
09:58<Sacro>I'd hate them using SSN more tha anything else
09:58<@planetmaker>username, password + some kind of tan
09:58<theholyduck>my bank has 3 options, you can have a fob, a scratch of card with 1 time codes printed
09:58<theholyduck>or a cellphone
09:58<Sacro>cellphone != good idea
09:58<Sacro>especially SMS
09:58<theholyduck>Sacro, which is why theres the 2 other options :P
09:59<Sacro>scratch off OTP is nice
09:59<theholyduck>its all about the level of convenience vs security
09:59<theholyduck>the cellphone is very convenient, the fob is reasonably convenient
09:59<theholyduck>and the card is very unconvenient :P
09:59<Sacro>but the cellphone is very insecure
09:59<Sacro>fob is not too bad
10:00<Sacro>card is great
10:00<theholyduck>so, you get to pick your own level of usability vs security and stick with that
10:00<theholyduck>i have a scratch card in a socket-safe thing
10:01<theholyduck>for if i cant for whatever reason use the 2 other authentications
10:01<theholyduck>Sacro, as for the ssn, its how shit is done in norway
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10:10<Sacro>so long as there's somethign you have & something you know
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11:07<krinn>rt effect with gpu
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13:10<Phreeze>ahhh typo in my translation...shame on me
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26465 /trunk/src/lang (6 files) (2014-04-15 17:45:37 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan - 23 changes by juanjo
13:45<@DorpsGek>croatian - 4 changes by VoyagerOne
13:45<@DorpsGek>english_US - 5 changes by Supercheese
13:45<@DorpsGek>finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
13:45<@DorpsGek>luxembourgish - 4 changes by Phreeze
13:45<@DorpsGek>swedish - 2 changes by Joel_A
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14:06*andythenorth wonders how many people he has to contact to re-license to WTFPL
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14:21<idl0r>planetmaker: - do you want the bt or even the dump?
14:21<idl0r>planetmaker: with the 1.4. git branch it works fine so far
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14:24<rubidium>idl0r: is that binary compiled with libxdg-basedir, and if so... which version?
14:25<idl0r>rubidium: yes, 1.1.1
14:26<rubidium>then is probably your problem
14:28<rubidium>the reason why the 1.4 branch might work is because stripping isn't enabled there and as such the binary layout it different, making the chances of hitting this xdg bug change
14:28<idl0r>rubidium: yep, works fine without xdg
14:30*rubidium wonders whether to change the configure to reject those older xdg versions
14:31<rubidium>let me guess, the 1.4 branch doesn't link to libxdg-basedir
14:33<rubidium>does the configure in 1.4 say something like "checking libxdg-basedir... needs at least version 1.2.0, libxdg-basedir NOT enabled" ?
14:34<idl0r>100 points
14:34<rubidium>then the backport in the 1.4 branch that was made hid the bug in libxdg-basedir due to refusing to link to it
14:34<idl0r>checking libxdg-basedir... needs at least version 1.2, libxdg-basedir NOT enabled
14:35*rubidium would've expected Gentoo to have the newer version of libxdg-basedir though
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14:37<idl0r>yeah, i just checked our bug tracker and there is indeed a version bump request for the already two years old 1.2.0 release..
14:38<idl0r>i might take care of it sometime this week
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14:47<Eddi|zuHause>* andythenorth wonders how many people he has to contact to re-license to WTFPL <-- i refuse.
14:48<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you just saved me a lot of effort :)
14:49<andythenorth>you don’t like the terms?
14:49<andythenorth>or you don’t like fragmentation>
14:54<frosch123>anyone playing with lira?
14:56<frosch123>actually, is anyone playing with something other than pound, euro or dollar?
14:56<LordAro>you can assume *someone* is
14:57*Pinkbeast would play in old pence if one could. :-/
14:57<Taede>i used to play with guilders
14:57<rubidium>just add a few lines to known-bugs.txt
14:57<frosch123>guilders are fine too
14:57<rubidium>ofcourse the exchange rates are never right
14:58<rubidium>and why are the current exchange rates better than those a few years ago?
14:58<frosch123>did you read my latest comment in that task?
14:59<rubidium>no, I just read the title and though... ***sigh***
14:59<frosch123>i am seriously wondering why there are no bug reports about taking loan in steps of 387300000 lira
14:59<frosch123>playing with most of the currencies is borderline silly
15:00<rubidium>likewise-ish with the rial
15:00<rubidium>but... you'd make rial = lira
15:00<frosch123>yeah, "borrow 49010000"
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15:01<andythenorth>so is there an objection to flat docks, or just a lack of interest?
15:02<frosch123>well, to be fair, taking/repaying loan is about the only round number in the game
15:02<rubidium>which is totally wrong because 1 ITL = 18.18 (so 20) IRR
15:03<rubidium>1 GBP = ~42k IRR, so factor 50k?
15:04<rubidium>lets see what the factors would become with the 'current' exchange rates and the (1, 2, 5) * 10**n (n>=0) rounding
15:05<krinn>why not add random rate? so one could add bitcoin... and wow your loan just cause down from 10k to 1k ;)
15:06<krinn>s/cause/goes :/
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15:14<rubidium>not really usable that way :(
15:15<frosch123>rial changes by factor 10?
15:16<frosch123>what do you mean with "usable"?
15:16<rubidium> <- much more legible
15:17<frosch123>ah, you mean a side-by-side diff
15:17<rubidium>I think many will be mad because the exchange rate of EUR <-> pre-EUR is totally different, and exactly that is about the only fixed exchange rate there is
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15:19<frosch123>maybe :)
15:19<frosch123>let's hope wolf01 actually plays with lira
15:20<andythenorth>distract them with flat docks
15:20<rubidium>e.g. EUR -> FRF = 6.86, so rounded that'd be 5. In the new 'way' it'd be 10 so off by a factor 2
15:20<frosch123>round it to 5?
15:21<frosch123>if eur = gbp, you can also make the conversion from euro to stuff, instead of pound to stuff
15:21<rubidium>but it isn't ;)
15:21<rubidium>unless we declare EUR is the base currency
15:21<frosch123>yeah, that's what i mean :p
15:22<frosch123>LordAro: are you scottish?
15:22<rubidium> <- interesting exchange rate over time
15:23*Taede lives in scotland
15:23<frosch123>what happend on 18 sep 2013?
15:24<Taede>countdown to independenc referendum?
15:24<Taede>that happens on 18sept this year
15:24<frosch123>13 sep 2013 actually
15:27<Taede>hmm, not sure there was anything, anything specific?
15:29<frosch123>irr<->gbp rate changed by factor 2 from one day to another
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15:32<rubidium>the wikipedia about the rial mentions completely differnet... well... dates/years
15:32<Wolf01>hi hi
15:33<Taede>cant find anything about that date in specific
15:33<@Alberth>evenink Wolf01
15:34<frosch123>Wolf01: do you play ottd set to lira?
15:34<Wolf01>usually yes
15:34<krinn>that should be more than enough to raise it
15:34<Wolf01>some times I play with pounds or dollars
15:34<frosch123>is it weird that loan are taken in steps of 387300k lira?
15:35<frosch123>we are pondering about rounding conversion rate to sane factors, so it would be 200000k lira
15:35<Wolf01>I don't care about that, once I earn the money I need, I give back all the loan :D
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i often play with "RM"
15:36<frosch123>your problem
15:36<Brumi>I usually play with forints which has an exchange rate of 378 in the game
15:36<Brumi>and I don't find it strange that the loan is not taken in 'round' steps
15:37<Brumi>I don't care really
15:37<frosch123>when i noticed that numbers are that strange, it really surprised me :)
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but "rounding" the loan amount means that when you hit (unrounded) max loan you always have this "broken" loan amount leftover
15:38<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: stop talking off-topic nonsense
15:38<Brumi>the only problematic thing is sending money to other companies
15:38<Brumi>but I also got used to that as well
15:38<krinn>i don't think anyone need to adjust that, that would makes sense only if the game really have real value of money
15:38<frosch123>Brumi: that happens with all conversion rates :)
15:39<Brumi>yeah :)
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15:39<krinn>it's not like if the A320 cost the real prize of the A320... so it's just it cost that, you have enough or not
15:39<frosch123>yes, but i expected people to get weirded out by loans in steps of 3780k forint
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: you probably have the wrong "target audience" in here :p
15:40<krinn>the max amount you can loan is just what we seek, not the stepping
15:42*andythenorth plays openttd
15:43<NGC3982>I love the Japanese NewGRF sets
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15:46<andythenorth>why am I using narrow gauge trains here?
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15:47<andythenorth>urgh, this is full FIRS
15:47<andythenorth>I forgot
15:48<andythenorth>how silly
15:48<andythenorth>too many types of industry
15:48<frosch123>didn't it win the poll? :p
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15:49<andythenorth>voting is not awesome
15:49<andythenorth>flat docks are awesome
15:51<Supercheese>flat docks?
15:53<andythenorth>in my imagination they’re awesome
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15:56<andythenorth>I actually think flat docks are impossible to implement
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16:03<andythenorth>:o full FIRS is really complicated
16:03<andythenorth>maybe I should delete it
16:03<frosch123>can you edit the caption of the poll?
16:04<frosch123>"what firs to delete?"
16:04<andythenorth>wise idea
16:04<@Alberth>just rename to "insane" :p
16:04<Brumi>full FIRS being so complicated is part of its charm for me :P
16:05<andythenorth>should I announce that on basis of poll, I’m deleting it?
16:11<frosch123>if there is a wiki article about firs, we should quote that representative poll
16:13<idl0r>hm, weren't there tooltips in prev. versions? for all the menu items
16:13<idl0r>i haven't played for.. like 4 years? so i don't recall
16:13<frosch123>in the past tooltips showed on rmb
16:13<frosch123>now they show on hoover
16:14<frosch123>an old-man hoover
16:14<idl0r>hm, i don't have any tooltips on hoover
16:14<frosch123>maybe you can disable theme ven
16:14<frosch123>check advanced settings
16:14<andythenorth>where are oil tankers?
16:15<andythenorth>this ship set is stupid
16:16<idl0r>there's just an option to show a brief description as tooltip
16:17<idl0r>well.. that's enough i guess
16:18<@Alberth>maybe you used a configuration that sets the tooltip back to RMB?
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16:25<andythenorth>cdist is awesome for PAX
16:27<andythenorth>wish I could use it for freight :P
16:27<andythenorth>fonsinchen: manual dispatcher? How would it work o_O
16:35<andythenorth>don’t change newgrfs on a running game :P
16:36<krinn> (LOL not what the guy do, but the referrer decision is awesome)
16:38<andythenorth>bored of my game
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---Logclosed Wed Apr 16 00:00:27 2014