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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-04-22

---Logopened Tue Apr 22 00:00:39 2014
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03:15<DanMacK>Hey all
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03:46<peter1139>Top o' the mornin' to ya.
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06:07<Wolf01>hi hi
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08:19<Snail>what is the address to report a grfcodec bug?
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08:39<Snail>just reported my issue :p
08:39<Snail>I set it a higher priority coz I can’t code without this...
08:40<@planetmaker>the test might be easier if you supplied the required images, too
08:40<@planetmaker>so that one can actually build the nfo
08:41<Snail>I did
08:41<Snail>I supplied a RAR file with nfo and png
08:41<Snail>wrong file
08:42<@planetmaker>just attach each file separately. easier also than downloading zip archives :D
08:42<Snail>ok :p
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09:46<Man>hey guys
09:46<Man>anybody there?
09:48<Man>i've got a problem downloading newest ottd
09:48<Man>anybody else?
09:49<@planetmaker>what exactly is the issue?
09:49<Man>it says the file ain`t there
09:50<Man>Not Found The requested URL /binaries/releases/1.4.0/ was not found on this server.
09:50<Man>this exactly
09:53<@planetmaker>what URL?
09:53<@planetmaker>we use several mirrors, so it might be the one near you which failed to sync properly
10:08<Man>could you give me another then please?
10:08<@planetmaker>what is the URL you try to retrieve the file from?
10:09<Man>but i got it already
10:09<Man>changed hu to uk :P
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10:21<mg_>i tried downloading about an hour ago, and .hu mirror wasn't wrking
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13:34<fairc>hey, what can I do if a town doesn't allow me to demolish a building/road?
13:35<@planetmaker>plant trees and/or wait
13:35<mg_>plant trees/bribe
13:36<@planetmaker>better build a good transport service next time before you try to do that
13:36<Phreeze>the trees make them happy like the boss of greenpeace
13:36<Phreeze>@pm: but towns are sometimes in the mountains, and you have to level 6 squares first...
13:37<fairc>I can't find bribe in the menu of the local auth, or where is it?
13:37<@planetmaker>maybe disabled
13:37<mg_>maybe you dont have enough money
13:38<mg_>btw. has anyone ever been caught for bribing local authorities? ;)
13:40<Phreeze>you can even edit that in the options, if youre caught more often or less often
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26481 trunk/src/lang/polish.txt (2014-04-22 17:45:10 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>polish - 1 changes by wojteks86
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13:56<fonsinchen>Maybe I should alter the effect of waiting cargo in stations in order to give an incentive to connect link graphs. The more supply you have in the same link graph the more cargo you'd be able to store at a station without hurting your rating.
13:57<fonsinchen>Easy to do and clearly an incentive. But it again worsen the overcrowding problem.
13:57<fonsinchen>^... could worsen ...
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14:09<fonsinchen>andythenorth: Any conclusions about the waybill mode?
14:09<andythenorth>works so far
14:09<andythenorth>I haven’t tried anything complicated
14:09<andythenorth>I’m playing a relatively small map
14:10<andythenorth>for this kind of game It Just Works
14:10<andythenorth>I have another 70 years or so to try and win the GS goal
14:10<andythenorth>will see if I find anything else
14:10<fonsinchen>Does it make a difference compared with asymmetric?
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14:11<andythenorth>Hard to answer
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14:12<andythenorth>I didn’t stick at asymmetric enough to give a fair answer
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14:12<andythenorth>I found with asymmetric that I was trying to reverse-engineer cdist to get things where I wanted them
14:13<andythenorth>I also got annoyed by cargo building up at some stations for reasons I didn’t understand
14:13<andythenorth>that’s not happening with waybill
14:14<fonsinchen>OK, thanks for testing.
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14:32<andythenorth>fonsinchen: what’s your current thoughts about tile demands?
14:47<andythenorth>V453000: I haz FIRS ideaz
14:50<andythenorth>this I don’t like
14:51<andythenorth>so farms all have to be connected to central transfer stations (slave labour)
14:51<andythenorth>and then, once supplies are being delivered
14:51<andythenorth>all hell breaks loose in an otherwise satisfying network
14:51<andythenorth>and not in an interesting way
14:51<andythenorth>unless they’re all connected and supplied, the cargo volumes are way too small
14:52<andythenorth>and then once they are supplied, the cargo volumes are bonkers
14:52<@Alberth>it simulates realistic good year / bad year :p
14:53<frosch123>i still don't get why andy doesn't like the farm transfers
14:53<frosch123>transfering is the most fun part of the game
14:53<frosch123>and firs farms are about the only legit usecase for road vehicles
14:53<frosch123>is it just a trick to not make bandit?
14:54<andythenorth>if I really hated the farms I’d have removed the clustering by now
14:54<andythenorth>I think there’s a better solution
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14:56<Phreeze>first thing i read from andy, is a rant vs his great grfs :)
14:56<Phreeze>20:54:16] <andythenorth> if I really hated the farms I’d have removed the clustering by now
14:56<Phreeze>[20:54:20] <andythenorth> I think there’s a better solution
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14:57<Phreeze>what are those catenaries andy ?
14:57<frosch123>andythenorth: anyway, the key to interesting gameplay is diverse gameplay
14:57<frosch123>so, feel free to add another chain with different mechaincs :p
14:57<frosch123>"even fuller firs"
14:58<Phreeze>interesting varies a lot: some find it interesting in playing realistic as hell, other love details and create giant infrastructure, others want to make perfect tracklayout etc
14:58*Phreeze slaps andythenorth around a bit with a large trout
14:58<frosch123>Phreeze: i wouldn't call "realistic" playing
14:58<fonsinchen>andythenorth: I think I'm going to remove tile demands.
14:58<fonsinchen>No one likes them
14:59<frosch123>the most extreme realistic players are not playing at all, but just to bullheaded to use photoshop
15:01<andythenorth>fonsinchen: routing is to industry instances (or tiles), not to stations?
15:01<andythenorth>I have two covered industries, one appears to be unsupplied
15:01<fonsinchen>it's to stations with demand
15:01<fonsinchen>probably tile demand again
15:02<fonsinchen>ah, you mean supplied by the same station?
15:02<andythenorth>so the final distribution from station to accepting industry is same as vanilla ottd?
15:02<andythenorth>whichever N tile is nearest?
15:02<fonsinchen>That's just as without cargodist. It only delivers to one industry.
15:03<andythenorth>ah ok
15:03<andythenorth>feel like solving that? o_O (separately)
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15:04<Pikka>so that you can stationwalk across all your farms and not have to build feeder networks? ;)
15:04<fonsinchen>I definitely don't feel like solving that. It's a mess.
15:04<Pikka>little distribution networks are "interesting gameplay" though
15:04<andythenorth>only for the first 5 or so :P
15:05<andythenorth>then they are ‘chore'
15:05<Pikka>they get your trucks used
15:05<andythenorth>I could live without that
15:05<frosch123>andythenorth: how does that no apply to all industries?
15:06<frosch123>connecting the fifth industry is always the same as before
15:06<andythenorth>most primaries only produce one cargo
15:06<andythenorth>so the station building is less tedious
15:06<andythenorth>most / non-farm /s
15:07<frosch123>maybe create a "andy"-economy without farms :p
15:07<andythenorth>it’s quite easy to do a non-blocking dropoff / pickup arrangement
15:07<andythenorth>it’s hard to do two non-blocking pickups and a dropoff
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15:07<andythenorth>and omg, realism
15:07<andythenorth>or rather aesthetics
15:07<andythenorth>mines look ok with lots of station around them
15:08<andythenorth>farms look stupid when there are more truck stop tiles than farm
15:08<andythenorth>I think the answer is higher initial production, lower supply boost, and fewer farms per cluster
15:08<@Alberth>close the farm when too many stops nearby :p
15:08<andythenorth>Alberth: evil :D
15:09<Pikka>all arable land has been occupied by roads, you have been eaten by a grue
15:09<@Alberth>how many farms per cluster do you have now?
15:09*andythenorth looks
15:10<@Alberth>it used to be quite nice in setup, but then again, I hardly play with supplies
15:11<andythenorth>up to 10
15:11<@Alberth>:o that's a lot :)
15:11*andythenorth checks code
15:11<@Alberth>5-6 is what I remember
15:12<@Alberth>but a very big cluster once in a while could be nice
15:13<peter1139>Hmm, is 4096x4096 playable?
15:14<andythenorth>only if you don’t get bored easily
15:16<Phreeze>4096 is like an "endless game"
15:16<Phreeze>i'm just into small maps now, 512
15:16<fonsinchen>4096x4096 is probably a pain, but 4096x64 is pretty cool
15:16<andythenorth>seems coal mins can cluster up to 20
15:16<andythenorth>but spread over a larger distance
15:17<andythenorth>oh I’m reading this all wrong :)
15:17<andythenorth>Alberth: I have absolutely no idea how big a cluster can big be :)
15:18<@Alberth>it's a surprise :)
15:19<andythenorth>seems to be
15:19<andythenorth>I suspect there is no fixed limit per cluster, but rather a number of clusters per map
15:20<Pikka>such cluster
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15:24<andythenorth>a mine running at Gung Ho is easy to serve with trains
15:24<andythenorth>farms with trams or trucks are a PITS
15:25<andythenorth>one day I will learn to type
15:25<andythenorth>or die
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15:27<Eddi|zuHause>news flash: 512 is not "small" :p
15:28<@Alberth>number of clusters per map, interesting :)
15:28<@Alberth>I usually play with few industries, which would explain why my farm clusters are quite small
15:29<andythenorth>my last game had 8-16 per cluster
15:29<andythenorth>256x256 is small
15:29<@Alberth>I hope you scale the number of clusters on map size
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>small maps are a problem with FIRS, there are so many industry types that you only get one per type
15:29<andythenorth>Alberth: yes :)
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>which breaks the clustering
15:30<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: 64x64 is fun :)
15:30<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: insoluble :D
15:30<@Alberth>you get one industry of every type :)
15:31<@Alberth>and almost no room left to transport stuff
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>my last 64x64 game was with MiniIN
15:32<frosch123>do a 128x64 map, and build two stations on it
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>but that one 128x256 game i played with YACD was great fun
15:32<peter1139>YACD :D
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise i played 512x512 or bigger
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>usually i prefer "sparse" maps
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. low towns/industries
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>lots of space inbetween
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>it's a shame the variety distribution is so bad with aspect ratio scaling
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>or i'd try something like 128x2048
15:37<andythenorth>you _could_ fix it o_O
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15:49<andythenorth>converting to electric rail on a bridge converted the narrow gauge underneath it
15:51<@Alberth>only convert the bridge ramps :)
15:51<andythenorth>drag-drop error :P
15:52<Phreeze>what catenaries are in that screenshot ?
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15:54*Phreeze slaps andythenorth around a bit with a large trout
15:55<Phreeze>20:50:26] <andythenorth> this I don’t like
15:55<andythenorth>I dunno
15:55<andythenorth>they’re trams
15:55<andythenorth>I don’t know the details
15:59<andythenorth>Pikka: I am very +1 to AV9 so far
15:59<andythenorth>it’s 1927, and choosing which plane to use is very easy
16:01<andythenorth>silly bunching ships
16:01<andythenorth>looks silly
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>those are the default tram catenaries
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>which look ugly as hell with all the double poles
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea why they were even considered for inclusion
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16:04<Pikka>probably because you didn't draw any better ones at the time
16:04<Pikka>av9 is good times
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>i think there were alternatives available back then already
16:09<andythenorth>feel free to patch them
16:10<andythenorth>I had never noticed the ugliness until you pointed it out :|
16:10<andythenorth>now I can never unsee it
16:12*andythenorth had stations on ‘planned’ instead of ‘waiting'
16:12<andythenorth>11,700 tonnes of Iron Ore waiting
16:12<andythenorth>or is that tons?
16:13<@Alberth>it's heavy either way :)
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16:23<Phreeze>i think i had an av9 problem
16:23<Phreeze>the newspaper didnt show the sprite, but some "av9" letters
16:23<@planetmaker>g'evening (again)
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16:24<Pikka>yes, somewhat buggy
16:24<Pikka>it's not exactly a proper release ;)
16:25<Phreeze>check it
16:26<Pikka>9.8 is really just a stats test, to see if it's playable
16:27<peter1139>Surely not.
16:27<Pikka>surely it's not playable?
16:27<peter1139>I've no idea.
16:28<peter1139>Is ukrs2 out yet?
16:28-!-Superuser [~superuser@2a02:e00:fffe:fbee::b5a2:2197] has joined #openttd
16:28<Pikka>no, it's still in denial
16:29<andythenorth>shameful egypt jokes
16:30<Pikka>all men are fools, and what makes them so is beauty like what I have got?
16:31<andythenorth>let’s see what cdist does with ‘refit any available’ orders
16:33<andythenorth>not much so far :P
16:34<fonsinchen>andythenorth: You have to run each cargo over the link at least once to bootstrap it.
16:34<fonsinchen>Otherwise it won't know what it can refit to.
16:34<andythenorth>should be ok in this case
16:35<andythenorth>existing route
16:35<fonsinchen>It only works if it's "existing same link for all available cargos".
16:36<fonsinchen>(or for initially unrouted cargo "to any station")
16:37*andythenorth wonders how the refitted cargo is chosen
16:37<andythenorth>180t coal waiting, 7809t iron ore
16:37<andythenorth>refit chosen is coal :P
16:38<fonsinchen>Iron probably doesn't have the right routing information.
16:38<fonsinchen>Does it refit all wagons to the same cargo?
16:38<andythenorth>it’s ships, but yeah I think you’re right
16:38<andythenorth>the iron ore has lost its route
16:38<andythenorth>it’s ‘any station'
16:39<fonsinchen>Then it should actually load it. If it doesn't please show me the savegame
16:39<andythenorth>and the trains have stopped dropping off (they don’t have explicit transfer orders)
16:39<andythenorth>hang on I’ll upload
16:39*peter1139 steals andythenorth's smartquotes.
16:40<andythenorth>stupid irc client
16:40<fonsinchen>You're still playing the waybill patch, right?
16:42<andythenorth>maybe it just needs more time to get the links up
16:44<fonsinchen>which of those iron horses is the right one?
16:45<andythenorth>oops sorry
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16:46<andythenorth>700M - filename is iron-horse.tar
16:46<fonsinchen>The newest one, I guess? The non-alpha one?
16:46<andythenorth>dated 20 April
16:46<andythenorth>didn’t realise there were 4 in the dir :P
16:48<fonsinchen>Fiddlewig East, I guess?
16:48<fonsinchen>One thing to note is that the ship will only refit when it's empty
16:48<fonsinchen>Just like without cargodist
16:48<andythenorth>should be empty afaict
16:48<andythenorth>did I mess up an order?
16:48<fonsinchen>one is half full of coal
16:49<fonsinchen>the other one refits to iron
16:49<andythenorth>ok, so it was just patience needed
16:50<Wolf01> :o
16:50<andythenorth>does the vehicle just refit to lowest cargo ID with some amount waiting?
16:50<andythenorth>looks that way
16:50<fonsinchen>hmm, no it prefers coal
16:50*andythenorth bets on lowest ID
16:50<fonsinchen>whenever there is coal it refits to coal
16:50<Pikka>Wolf01, yes, but on the other hand it's Trainz
16:51<andythenorth>coal is ID 1, iron ore is 8
16:51*Pikka suspects that also
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16:54<andythenorth>np :)
16:56<fonsinchen>It will only refit to something else after trying one cargo successfully if the consist's free capacity for the new cargo is lower than that for the old one.
16:56<fonsinchen>Works fine for trains or other things with multiple vehicles per consist
16:56<fonsinchen>not so much for ships ...
16:58<andythenorth>bloody ships :)
17:00<Pikka>the obvious solution is articulated ships
17:00<Pikka>and articulated aircraft
17:00<andythenorth>they won’t be able to overtake
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17:07<andythenorth>fonsinchen: FWIW, I don’t think an incentive is needed to connect nodes
17:07<andythenorth>but then again, I only play with GS now, and that controls the incentives
17:08<andythenorth>speaking as the failed designer of a large industry set, I would recommend leaving gameplay incentives to GS :P
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17:24<andythenorth>‘close dock’ anyone?
17:26-!-JdGordon1 [] has joined #openttd
17:27<Pikka>close to what?
17:27<Pikka>how close?
17:27<Pikka>almost touching?
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>softly caressing
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17:28<Pikka>peter1139, so what was the problem with the shortened diagonal patch?
17:28<peter1139>It doesn't work.
17:28<Pikka>but apart from that?
17:28<peter1139>It does but doesn't.
17:29<peter1139>It doesn't always get the distances right. Needs more sub-positioning accuracy.
17:29<Pikka>easy fix?
17:30<Pikka>knock it over in an afternoon?
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17:31<Eddi|zuHause>multiply the number of substeps by 3?
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>1.5 is "almost" sqrt(2)
17:33<peter1139>Might as well do it properly and have smoother motion in 4x zoom
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>multiply by 12 :)
17:36<Pikka>yes but
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>(this was done by exposing "progress" to newgrfs
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>which is in original TTD specs, but somehow omitted by OpenTTD
17:37<Pikka>well if it's a newgrf specific thing it might not be so bad
17:38-!-andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
17:38<Pikka>but I don't want to have to choose between having sliding animated vehicles, and having 4 times as many animation frames. :)
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>var B8 was it
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17:38<Eddi|zuHause>+ case 0x38: return (v->GetAdvanceDistance() - v->progress)*256/v->GetAdvanceDistance() - 1;
17:39<Pikka>looks like it
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>the original specs had something weird in there
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>could just expose progress directly, though
17:39<Pikka>38 B On each round of vehicle processing, if the vehicle is not stopped, the low byte of current speed (or 3/4 of the current speed, if bit 0 of vehicle direction is clear) is subtracted from this field; if the result overflows the vehicle is to move by 1 unit of location (for trains, the vehicle additionally is to move by the number of units equal to the high byte of the current speed)
17:40<Pikka>fun times
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17:41<Eddi|zuHause>progress is counting up while varB8 is counting down
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17:42<Eddi|zuHause>hm, did i not upload that?
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>not entirely sure what the other two hunks do
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>seem to just shuffle around stuff
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17:59<qwebirc76812>Hey folks, running into a problem with the android version
17:59<qwebirc76812>"failed connectiong to ....." after install
17:59<qwebirc76812>this a temporary issue? known? workaround?
18:01<Pikka>you should ask the developer, the android port isn't an official release
18:03<Pikka>his name is pelya on the forums afaia
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>1st step: change your nick
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>2nd step: tell what you're trying to do and which step fails
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>3rd step: provide the full error message
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18:20<seriously>okay that's a bit of a strange request
18:20<seriously>but alright
18:20<seriously>I installed the game on Android
18:20<seriously>and when I run it
18:21<seriously>it tries to connect and grab the data files
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18:21<seriously>and fails
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18:22<seriously>on the SDL loading screen
18:23<seriously>"1/4: Connecting to"
18:23<seriously>a url which doesn't respond on my desktop either
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18:31<seriously>seems like something silly like a bad url reference in the sdl wrapper installer
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>that seems to work here
18:32<Pikka>here too. either the server was temporarily down, or the problem is on your end.
18:32<seriously>trying it again
18:33<seriously>maybe it was just an internet burp
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it was a mirror that was not available
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18:34<seriously_>yup workin now
18:35<seriously_>was doing that all day
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18:36<Guest7264>is it possible to install and run openttd from one folder after its been built from source?
18:36-!-Guest7264 is now known as NucWin
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18:36<Eddi|zuHause>create an empty openttd.cfg in the folder
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>then it will use all data and save files from there
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>instead of the personal directory
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18:37<NucWin>im also trying to avoid make install
18:37<NucWin>do i just need openttd from bin folder after make
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18:38<Eddi|zuHause>try "make bundle"
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>the binary is not enough
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>you also need language files and stuff
18:39<NucWin>ah nice thats what i needed
18:39<NucWin>thanks muchly
18:39<NucWin>will have to remember that one for when compiling other stuff
18:39<Eddi|zuHause>also, you need a graphics pack additionally to the source/compile
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>but it will usually try to download those on first start
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>except if you're on OSX, because nobody implemented that there
18:42<NucWin>it was complaining about lzma even though i had its dev packages installed so just installed build-deps including sdl stuff
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>it needs "lzma2" (also called "xz")
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18:43<Eddi|zuHause>it works without, but you can't open other people's savegames or join multiplayer servers
18:44<NucWin>will have to try and remember that, wiki pages could do with stuff for building dedicated server only as package is not provided
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18:45<Eddi|zuHause>wiki pages do stuff you put on them :)
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>if you found something missing from the wiki page, and you did that, then you're the expert :)
18:46<DanMacK>hey all
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18:51<luaduck>hoy folks, is there any way to do something akin to file includes with the OTTD config file?
18:51<luaduck>got a banlist I want to share between servers
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>not that i know of
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>but you could do a "on server start" script
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>in the script subdir
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19:07<luaduck>good idea
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19:41<NucWin>how do i get my dedicated server to use newgrf ive downloaded using content command
19:49<Eddi|zuHause>put them in openttd.cfg as "path/file.grf = parameters"
19:49<Eddi|zuHause>or use a savegame made by the client
19:49<NucWin>umm i tried that but it seemed to delete them
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>do not edit openttd.cfg while the server is running, it is overwritten on exit
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>(or use the "reload config" command)
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>note that newgrf changes only apply to new games, not savegames
19:52<NucWin>i thought i had stopped the server and copied [newgrf] section from local client but didnt seem to wokr
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>you probably missed something
19:56<Wolf01>'night all
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19:57<NucWin>total_town_replacement_set-3.14\ttrs3w.grf = 1 0 2 1
19:57<NucWin>under [newgrf]
19:58<NucWin>but when i quit the server its deleted again
19:58<NucWin>and i have checked 3times that i stopped the server first
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20:13<Eddi|zuHause>NucWin: replace \ by /
20:14*NucWin face palm
20:14<Eddi|zuHause>happens to the best of us :p
20:14<NucWin>thanks again
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20:46<DanMacK>Hey all
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21:41<DanMacK>Hey hey
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23:30<DanMacK>Anyone alive in here?
23:32<Supercheese>vivus sum
23:35<Pikka>I'm not
23:37<Supercheese>You're undead, then?
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---Logclosed Wed Apr 23 00:00:40 2014