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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-04-25

---Logopened Fri Apr 25 00:00:43 2014
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00:08<DanMacK>gey all
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01:56<V453000>max _reasonable_ height for industries? I knowz that tall houses glitch, but industries?
01:56<V453000>e.g. refinery is tall as fuck
01:57<@planetmaker>V453000, the same height restrictions apply to industries as well
01:57<V453000>hi (: okayz
01:59<@planetmaker>the restriction is a technical from drawing. When something changes, the rectangle which needs to be re-drawn extends so much to the front as the highest possible sprite can be in front
02:00<@planetmaker>in order to just reach the point in the back which needs re-drawing
02:00<@planetmaker>thus higher houses / industries means in effect slower game
02:00<@planetmaker>well, allowing higher
02:00<@planetmaker>thus houses higher than the hard-coded re-drawing rectangle will glitch
02:01<@planetmaker>as then they're not properly re-drawn when something in their background changes
02:01<@planetmaker>thus they will be clipped when it happens
02:02<@planetmaker>badly explained, but I still lack tea :D
02:05<V453000>or beer.
02:05<V453000>I get it, thanks (:
02:10<@planetmaker>I didn't look it up properly, max un-clipping height might be 128
02:10<@planetmaker>in normal zoom
02:12<V453000>toying with creating mass railings/pathways on ze refinery :D
02:13<V453000>stupid piece of tubes and stuff :D
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02:43<V453000>=D celebration day, we managed to sell our old camera at work
02:44<V453000>or well, we found the buyer
02:45<@planetmaker>hm... what kind of camera is it, that one would be happy to sell it?
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02:45<@planetmaker>(other than that throwing away isn't the cheaper option) :D
02:45<V453000>an old camcorder thing which was super expensive back then, and now is easily replaced by modern things
02:46<@planetmaker>hm, yeah. Value decays quickly there
02:46<V453000>not that terribly as it is professional equipment, it is still worth 10 000 euro
02:47<@planetmaker>hm :)
02:47<V453000>but the problem is that you have to find buyer who can use that stuff and want s to pay that much
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02:47<@planetmaker>some of the high speed cams we use are also still sold for basically the same price as 10 years ago. With about the same stats
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02:47<@planetmaker>now, that I think of that :)
02:48<DanMacK>Hey V, have you got a spritesheet on NUTS devzone with just the cargos listed?
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02:48<V453000>our problem is that it is the huge camcorder that TV people carry on their shoulder of the size of a bazooka-ish :D ... but today it is common that cameras are put on the flying drones - which can only carry a few kilograms
02:49<V453000>DanMacK: somewhat, sec :)
02:49<@planetmaker>hehe, yeah. When BBC visited us a few weeks ago, they came with a much smaller camera, too
02:49<V453000>DanMacK: if you see NUTS repository, all wagon sprites are in 3 categories, Flatbed, Hopper and Tanker - every wagon has 3 files, one of each.
02:50<V453000>DanMacK: if you combine those 3 together, you have all cargo sprites I use for that wagon
02:50<DanMacK>cool, thanks
02:50<V453000>yeah we have the smaller one as well, but we want to sell it too
02:50<V453000>DanMacK: just ask if you get confused in it (:
02:51<V453000>... there often are also the colour of the hopper/tanker cargoes somewhere near the sprites - useful for recolouring heaps etc
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03:16<LSky>youre up early planetmaker
03:17<peter1139>8am isn't early.
03:17<LSky>hm, maybe youre right
03:20<dihedral>good morning
03:30<LSky>quick question about licenses, a newgrf with a GPL license can be edited and distributed (freely obviously) as long as the original creator is credited and the changes are clearly noted? im trying to get the gist of what the license entails, but its obviously a large wall of text
03:32<@planetmaker>LSky, not really. It's half past 9 am here
03:33<@planetmaker>LSky, GPL means: you're free to modify and re-distribute, as long as you retain credits, not your changes and supply also sources
03:34<@planetmaker>*note your changes
03:34<@planetmaker>I should have written indicate. Less typo-prone :P
03:34<LSky>its longer though
03:40<dihedral>planetmaker, not enough sleep?
03:41<dihedral>did we by the way not have a mention of a need for a party this year?
03:43<@planetmaker>thanks, got enough sleep actually
03:43<@planetmaker>and I know of no party-planning yet
03:44<peter1139>pom te pom
03:44<peter1139>For some reason this router spams part of its firmware as raw ethernet frames when it boots up.
03:55<dihedral>planetmaker, how about we change that ;-)
03:55<@planetmaker>LSky, in what way do you think that ships need tweaking for your scenario?
03:55<LSky>im looking into that specific part right now, but itll take me a while before i can edit the newgrf myself
03:55<@planetmaker>we could, but not sure I can host this year. Much of the summer is planned-for already
03:56<LSky>one of the newer versions of FISH has a speed tweak already, so that seems fine
03:56<@planetmaker>LSky, from my experience FISH works quite well out-of-box
03:56<LSky>i do think that it'd need more cargo capacity though
03:56<@planetmaker>ships also don't need to be that fast. they already have a cargo aging bonus
03:57<LSky>if the scenario i had in mind would somewhat work out as planned, it means ships would be taking over quite some of the work that trains normally put in
03:57<@planetmaker>or was it only on station rating?
03:57<@planetmaker>yup, I understood that :)
03:57<LSky>i mean obviously the first step is to try it as-is
03:58<LSky>but ive played on larger maps with lots of water
03:58<@planetmaker>Before I'd... ^ just that
03:58<LSky>and in the end, its still a very long line of ships
03:58<LSky>because theyre slow
03:58<LSky>especially if you'd want to keep server performance in mind, a cargo capacity increase seems like a good way to achieve this
03:59<@planetmaker>fish has giant ships, severl thousand tonnes capacity
03:59<@planetmaker>yet, still, it needs many, for long routes :)
03:59<LSky>especially early on
03:59<LSky>say this game starts in 1950 or 1940
03:59<@planetmaker>early on, you don't have that much cargo either
03:59<@planetmaker>and 1950 is not early :P
04:00<LSky>at that point, i think youre restricted to ships with ~1000 tons of cargo capacity
04:00<LSky>well i was being generous
04:00<LSky>i mean
04:00<@planetmaker>true, there you don't have the giant ones
04:01<LSky>actually im gonna check how big they are later on
04:01<LSky>i thought the tankers didnt go over 2mil, but i could be wrong
04:02<@planetmaker>well, whatever your conclusion. It will also be easy to create a FISH-fork on DevZone. Just ping me, should you need it
04:02<mg_>i start in 1830 with FISH and for many years there is one ship with 170 tonnes capacity, that is max :)
04:03<@planetmaker>being andy, you'll need python and likely like markdown, chameleon and some other python packages to compile it
04:03<LSky>i just read through this one
04:04<LSky>so i better start with that
04:04<@planetmaker>well... if you just want to change a few properties you might get away with a checkout of the repo, adjusting the stats and compiling
04:04<@planetmaker>without so much as diving deeply into it
04:05<@planetmaker>just see the first few lines for the basic stats
04:06<LSky>whats the difference between gross tonnage and capacity_cargo_holds?
04:06<@planetmaker>it's not exactly nml. It's some templating thrown on it
04:06<LSky>this was what I was looking for though
04:07<@planetmaker>the nml doesn't look much different for the basic stats, though :)
04:07<@planetmaker>gross_tonnage is his own naming there. probably translates to capacity_cargo_holds
04:08<@planetmaker>with some cargo-specific factors likely
04:08<@planetmaker>I don't know the details of that code base either.
04:08<LSky>looks like ill keep my hands off the tonnage thing
04:08<LSky>it differs from the cargo capacity sometimes
04:09<@planetmaker>yes... as different cargos have different 'sizes'
04:10<@planetmaker>a ton of ore takes more space than a ton of goods than a passenger. or so
04:10<LSky>ive never used the devzone as such though
04:10<LSky>so im not sure how the process works there
04:11<@planetmaker>It's purpose is to be a hosting platform for open-source projects around OpenTTD
04:12<@planetmaker>So all it basically needs is that you apply for a project (if you haven't one yet) and supply us with your public ssh key (as that's required for commit access)
04:13<LSky>right, i got the part about the hosting platform, but the compiling bit is still unknown to me, do i edit the sourc eand compile it myself?
04:13<@planetmaker>if you like, the DevZone also can supply you with compilation and translation services for the projects
04:14<@planetmaker>well, of course you can (and should) be able to compile the source locally, I think. But I can also enable automatic builds on the DevZone
04:14<@planetmaker>I happily do so, it's just a few mouse clicks
04:16<LSky>id likely be able to compile it myself, though it did take me quite a while to set up an compiling environment for OpenTTD itself on Windows, so itd likely save a lot of time. Im trying to remember if I already had a profile on devzone though, probably not
04:16<@planetmaker>something I can search for?
04:17<@planetmaker>name or login?
04:18<@planetmaker>Wrt the compilation by DevZone: there seem to be some who actually use it without compiling yourself - that's fine with me, I don't mind. Personally I prefer to check-in somewhat tested code, though and have it build my stuff so that others can also check the development versions and to have a place to reliably build the releases (tags)
04:21<@planetmaker>also it's a check that I added all necessary files to the source or whether I forgot something.
04:23<V453000>how can something be so complicated to model like a stupid ass LADDER on an oil tank
04:24<@planetmaker>LSky, or you persuade andy to add parameters to FISH (or programme those parameters yourself). More complicated but more versatile :)
04:24<LSky>i dont wanna bother him too much really
04:25<LSky>he has plenty of projects
04:25<LSky>ive not seen cargo capacity parameters on newgrfs yet
04:26<LSky>FISh doesnt seem to really need it either, except for this one project were talking about
04:26<LSky>if id request anything from andy, its for him to fix the hotel bug in FIRS
04:26<LSky>that his project too right?
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04:36<LSky>but yeah, ive asked him about that already, but i think hes busy enough as is
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04:40<LSky>ill get back to you on the project thing, im looking at the apply window now and theres some questions ill have, ill see if youre around later for that
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08:43<V453000>the future to be oil refinery key part :D
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09:11<Eddi|zuHause>wrong perspective!
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>peter1139: what do i do with magnesium? there seems to be neither a fuse nor a decay rule for it
09:20<peter1139>I don't know. I actually won on my first go with only 444 points, but I've no idea how.
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>well you need two oxygen to create silicon, then it's easy
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>but if the oxygen merges with a helium-4, then you get stuck
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>this time i won with 444.5, the previous time i lost with 639
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>this game is bad :/
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>i had 3 iron and 3 magnesium :/
09:49<Eddi|zuHause>you need 2 oxygen, but oxygen merges into neon too easily, and then you need to keep it from merging to magnesium until it decays to oxygen again, while trying to merge a beryllium into carbon
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09:55<Flygon>I really really
09:55<Flygon>Wish I was around you guys when I was doing that research for the short story I never wrote
09:56<Flygon>Howdy fjb
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>now i had 4 iron
10:38<Wolf01>won wit 548
10:38<Wolf01>at the second attempt
10:38<Wolf01>and I still have to win one at 2048
10:38<peter1139>2048's easy
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>i've still not had a 16384
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>it should be possible, but a lot of things have to go the right way
10:41<peter1139>i haven't managed 4096
10:41<peter1139>got close once
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11:00<LordAro>such illegals
11:04<LordAro>oh, and apparently it's licensed under GPL3
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11:17<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26507 /trunk/src (string.cpp string_func.h) (2014-04-25 15:17:17 UTC)
11:17<@DorpsGek>-Cleanup: remove now unused custom strndup implementation
11:26<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26508 /trunk/src (gamelog.cpp safeguards.h) (2014-04-25 15:25:59 UTC)
11:26<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: use seprintf instead of a custom vstrcatprintf hybrid
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11:40<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26509 /trunk/src (70 files in 13 dirs) (2014-04-25 15:40:32 UTC)
11:40<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: replace strdup with stredup (the latter ensures the return is not NULL)
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13:31<Phreeze>FRVG Fruit (and optionally Vegetables) 00A4 Express, piece goods, refrigerated
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13:32<Phreeze>how do i have to understand that ? if i put the bitmask of refittable to CC_EXPRESS, can it be refittet to carry milk ?
13:32<Phreeze>or does the wagon need to have the 3 bitmasks of express good and refrig ?
13:35<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26510 trunk/src/townname.cpp (2014-04-25 17:35:29 UTC)
13:35<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: use memcpy instead of strncpy in the town name replace word function since we never want to add a '\0' anyway, and we know the exact length too
13:43<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26511 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2014-04-25 17:43:09 UTC)
13:43<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: use strecpy in game_text
13:44<@planetmaker>good evening
13:44<Phreeze>planetmaker - can you check my questons from just before ^^
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26512 trunk/src/lang/croatian.txt (2014-04-25 17:45:08 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
13:45<Phreeze>err, in fact , replace milk by fruits ^^
13:46<@planetmaker>Phreeze, use cargo_allow_refit to allow refit to a specific cargo which does is not allowed by the cargo class refit masks
13:46<@planetmaker>otherwise, if you want to go via the cargo classes, check the classes of all cargos you want to cover
13:47<Phreeze>i have a covered cargo wagon for example
13:47<@planetmaker>But I recommend to use the class support for generic support (yet unknown cargoes) and list all cargoes you want to support explicitly in the quoted property
13:47<Phreeze>if i give it the mask CC_EXPRESS; can it then refit to TOURISTS ????
13:47<Phreeze>as tourists is "passengers, express"
13:48<@planetmaker>I think so
13:48<Phreeze>hm k
13:49<Phreeze>i better use refittable_cargo_types: bitmask(FRUT,COAL,COPR); etc then
13:49<Phreeze>gonna be a huge list ^^
13:49<@planetmaker>yes. But who cares?
13:49<Phreeze>me not ;)
13:49<@planetmaker>Makes sure you always know - independent whether an industry set re-defines cargo classes - which cargoes are transported
13:50<Phreeze>yeah, but it's still often pretty obvious
13:55<@planetmaker>well, I could recommend you to look at both, OpenGFX+ Trains and Dutchtrainset. They both use it similar and have a nice list of which wagon uses which cargoes, I think
14:00<Phreeze>i just sorted them in my cargotable
14:01<Phreeze>so i can do a quick copy paste and check
14:08<Phreeze>silly question, will this work:
14:08<Phreeze>switch(FEAT_TRAINS, SELF, sw_cargo_cap, cargo_type_in_veh) {
14:08<Phreeze> MAIL,GOOD,LVST: return 35;
14:09<@planetmaker>I think you have to list them separately
14:09<Phreeze>oh god ..
14:09<@planetmaker>MAIL: return 35; GOOD: return 35;
14:09<@planetmaker>patch to NML welcome :)
14:10<@planetmaker>maybe it's more intelligent, but I don't know
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14:20<Eddi|zuHause>HEY!!! where did xkcd get my directory structure from!!
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14:21<Eddi|zuHause>Phreeze: you can only do continguous ranges... so "MAIL..LVST"
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>rearrange the table if necessary
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14:35<Phreeze>ah ranges, cool
14:35<Phreeze>as i grouped them
14:35<Phreeze>ah damn cant copy paste lines that begin with slashes in irc ^^
14:36<TinoDidriksen>Use a better client that doesn't try to react to / from pastes.
14:37<Phreeze>i always used nnscript, but have no key for an old mirc ;)
14:37<@Alberth>better use a paste bin :)
14:37<Phreeze>no, cause people must click then ;)
14:41<Superuser>you can use // to start a line with a slash
14:42<@Alberth>like most people "use focus follows mouse" :p
14:42<Superuser>or /say /x
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14:49<Phreeze>" // doesnt work either
14:49<Phreeze>i pasted a comment, so i pasted a // ;)
14:51<Taede>ctrl+enter ?
14:59<Superuser>depends on the client
14:59<Superuser>mIRC... typical
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15:22<frosch123>oh my...
15:22<Superuser>Geore Takei?
15:23<frosch123>did anyone of you also ponder to print out some of the topics from the suggestion forum and pin them somewhere in your bathroom?
15:23<andythenorth>I have yes
15:23<@Alberth>to scare you out of your bath room? :)
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15:25<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26513 trunk/src/string_func.h (2014-04-25 19:25:38 UTC)
15:25<@DorpsGek>-Fix: 9x compilation, maybe
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>why do people make bundle installation stuff that asks interactive stuff halfway through?
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>before every individual step i have to click "yes, license blah" and "yes, typical installation"
15:31<peter1139>And then it's something dumb like agreeing to the GPL
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15:34<DanMacK>hey all
15:35<@Alberth>hi hi
15:39<andythenorth>hi DanMacK
15:39<andythenorth>just cooking
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15:42*Alberth adds some sprites and nml phrases
15:43<DanMacK>cool whats cooking?
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15:51<andythenorth>omelette and bacon
15:52<Phreeze>andythenorth your bathroom must look weird
15:52<Phreeze>BAD bathroom
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>if what you're cooking is cool, you're probably doing something wrong
15:58<@planetmaker>even ice cream? :)
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15:59<Eddi|zuHause>if you're cooking ice cream, you're probably doing something wrong
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: so how much iron did you make? ->> [25.04.2014 14:26] <peter1139>
16:02<@planetmaker>you evil you!
16:02<@planetmaker>thou shall not tempt me :)
16:06<@planetmaker>the game is faulty. D+D -> 4He. But doesn't work
16:06<@planetmaker>except that that reaction is seldom due to rarity of D
16:06<frosch123>what is special about iron?
16:06<@planetmaker>frosch123, it's the last element you can make with fusion
16:06<@planetmaker>and gaining energy
16:07<Rubidium>based on that game, why isn't there more magnesium?
16:07<@planetmaker>the heavier stuff is all supernova - results, eating its energy
16:08<frosch123>so, is there a theory where the universe ends up iron only?
16:09<Rubidium>arguably the universe ends up with only hydrogen (or just separated quarks or so)
16:10<@planetmaker>frosch123, that's the standard theory, yes
16:10<@planetmaker>unless it expands so fast that not all elements can fuse
16:10<frosch123>i guess not solid iron though :)
16:11<@planetmaker>enough of that, actually
16:11<@planetmaker>the earth is full of solid iron
16:11<andythenorth>so who is coding a new GS? o_O
16:12<andythenorth>could be
16:12<andythenorth>what does it do?
16:13<@planetmaker>making iron makes you all go "wooo" and respected
16:13<@planetmaker>bonus for delivery of iron to where the GS decides that there is demand
16:14<@planetmaker>might also stretch to ore and or coal or workers
16:14<@planetmaker>you can opt in on single tasks
16:14<@planetmaker>if you fail, it's the same effect as a train crash: no cargo at all or so
16:15<@planetmaker>so choose wisely what you can promise
16:15<@planetmaker>suggested time any 5 ... 20 years in the frame from 1850 ... 1970.
16:16<@planetmaker>most delivery points (depending on tasks taken, they might have different difficulty) wins
16:16<andythenorth>go on then...
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16:27<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but why does the game often get stuck at magnesium? does it not merge with anything?
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16:28<Eddi|zuHause>i've just had 4 iron, a magnesium and 2 oxygen, but i couldn't bring the oxygen together anymore :/
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16:32<Eddi|zuHause>score was 1914
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17:06<+glx>first time I win in that kind of game
17:06<+glx>final score 694.5
17:09<frosch123>hmm, oh, not all of them are stable
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17:13<@planetmaker>no... And I hate that 24Mg doesn't fuse :P
17:14<+glx>I sometimes don't understand how I got some fusions
17:16<@planetmaker>it's all explained below
17:18<+glx>didn't see :)
17:18<frosch123>ah, i was searching for mg over and over again :p
17:19<+glx>so to win you just need to get Ni56 and don't lose until it decays
17:21<Rubidium>the odd thing about the game is that the hard part is somewhere in the middle. After you passed the point (oxygen merging), it's quite trivial
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17:30<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26514 /trunk/src (fileio.cpp safeguards.h) (2014-04-25 21:29:54 UTC)
17:30<@DorpsGek>-Fix: rewrite link-in-tar handling so it doesn't use strncpy and it doesn't overrun its buffers anymore
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17:55<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26515 /extra/masterserver_updater/src (19 files in 4 dirs) (2014-04-25 21:54:59 UTC)
17:55<@DorpsGek>[MSU] -Fix: compilation with recent changes in trunk
17:55<@DorpsGek>[MSU] -Codechange: snprintf -> seprintf
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17:57<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26516 /extra/masterserver_updater/src/shared (3 files) (2014-04-25 21:57:31 UTC)
17:57<@DorpsGek>[MSU] -Codechange: get rid of ttd_strlcpy/ttd_strlcat
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18:42<Xaroth|Work>alt text on that comic, eddi
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>then a) it's misspelled, and b) i still don't know what it actually is
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18:55<Xaroth|Work>you've never read the books?
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18:59<Eddi|zuHause>i've practically never read ANY books
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>a handful of children's books, stuff in school, the green mile and something about mongolians invading...
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21:09<supermop>ok, before i post a new thread and look like an idiot
21:10<supermop>here is yet another idea for daylength
21:10<supermop>after all, days should just be arbitrary in ottd, it's the ticks that matter, right
21:14<supermop>sooo why not have things that occur daily or monthly instead occur every 74 or 2220 ticks etc
21:14<supermop>or any arbitrary amount of ticks
21:16<supermop>so scaling number of tiicks per day has no effect on the real speed of those other events
21:16<supermop>if user wants to change the frequency of those events they could possibly do so either by newgrf or game setting
21:19<supermop>i envision this being implemented along side a 24 hr clock
21:40<MagisterQuis>So, I'm setting up a dedicated server. I can't work out how to get it to stop printing debug messages to the console.
21:40<MagisterQuis>As cool as it is to know who queries me, I don't really care that much.
21:41<MagisterQuis>Even with -d 0 or -d net=0, it still prints them.
21:43<MagisterQuis>Is there any way to suppress the dbg: [net] [udp] queried from … messages without going into the console and manually changing the debug level?
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---Logclosed Sat Apr 26 00:00:45 2014