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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-04-29

---Logopened Tue Apr 29 00:00:49 2014
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02:39<supermop>you know what would be better than pipelines in ottd?
02:39<supermop>log flumes
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02:46<@planetmaker>supermop, masks are 32bpp, so anti-aliasing them would not do what you expect it to do
02:46<@planetmaker>err... masks are 8bpp
02:50<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: what's a flume?
02:55<supermop>chute for water to flow in
02:55<V453000>just use wetrails supermop :D
02:56<supermop>also adapted into an amusement part ride, whereby one rides in a fiberglass log through the chute
02:56<supermop>i want cargo decay to be based on how fun the ride was V453000
02:57<supermop>signals are hard
02:57<supermop>i mean representing the mechanics of an ottd signal in a little picture of a signal
02:58<supermop>how does one represent, abstractly, that a signal does x, especially without a distant aspect
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02:59<supermop>you have to be somewhat arbitrary about it
02:59<supermop>and hope that the user just figures it out
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03:19<supermop>ok time for a test grf i guess
03:19<supermop>so i have a bunch of individual 256x256 32bpp pngs
03:20<supermop>can i use NML to make a baseset out of those, should i composite them into a sprite sheet first?
03:20<@planetmaker>that depends
03:20<supermop>most of them only need to be 128x256
03:21<supermop>rest is just blue
03:21<@planetmaker>32bpp uses transparency, not blue
03:21<@planetmaker>it's 32bpp :) blue would be blue
03:22<supermop>ok well blue is just a layer i can turn off in the vector file and make more pngs!
03:22<@planetmaker>as to your question: using many separate files, one per sprite surely works
03:22<V453000>o, I can just have alpha without wtfblue with 32bpp?
03:23<@planetmaker>so it might be the same amount of work now to code it with all files separate as combining them in a sprite sheet
03:23<@planetmaker>but if you update, separate files might come in more handy, supermop
03:23<@planetmaker>V453000, 32bpp is just that, no frills, no surprises
03:23<supermop>i want to update a lot
03:23<supermop>because these graphics are ugly, just a proof of concept
03:23<@planetmaker>only if you want company colour or palette animation (like water), then you need to define *additionally* 8bpp masks
03:24<@planetmaker>supermop, just FYI: zbase uses single files
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03:24<supermop>can i make a base set without cc? at least to start with?
03:24<@planetmaker>in principle yes
03:25<@planetmaker>just like zbase has no animated water
03:25<Eearslya_>So, question..I wanna get involved in OTTD coding, but the To-Do List page is..horribly out of date. Is there a more up-to-date page or where could I start?
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03:25<supermop>i've only drawn land slopes, rivers, canals, rapids, so far
03:26<supermop>and i want to quickly test it to see if the tiles look nice together
03:26<@planetmaker>supermop, do you really *draw*? Or render?
03:26<supermop>drawing, in illustrator
03:26<@planetmaker>anyhow, as landscape getting-started, you might look at the code of pota-ghat
03:27<@planetmaker>Eearslya, seems we don't exactly have a more up to date list of nice-to-have things. But of course our bug tracker lists also a lot of bugs which also might be nice targets to tackle
03:27<supermop>is that a base set or landscape grf
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03:28<@planetmaker>supermop, it's a landscape newgrf
03:28<@planetmaker>but for landscape, the difference between base set and newgrf is marginal
03:28<supermop>but the same code would work for a base set?
03:28<supermop>ah ok
03:28<@planetmaker>not 1:1, but a single search and replace would do
03:43<@planetmaker>well, maybe not single. But the effort to change is marginal, usually
03:44<supermop>any faster way to determine what sprite gets which number on this list?
03:44<supermop>or just look at what order they appear in a sprite sheet?
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06:17<peter1139>"Booting Ubuntu with systemd: Now in Utopic" ... on sigh :p
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06:26<Wolf01>hi hi
06:27<peter1139>HELLO THERE WOLF01
06:27<peter1139>MODE 7 :D
06:28<Sacro>ah mode 7
06:28<peter1139>Acorn, not Nintendo.
06:29<Wolf01>now you need just a green phosphor monitor
06:29<peter1139>Completely wrong :-(
06:29<peter1139>Well, sort of.
06:30<peter1139>Hmm, of course, it was interlaced which makes conversion fun.
06:33<peter1139>Ooh, gotta love the [] symbols :D
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06:39<@planetmaker>Taede, Re FS#5996: The usual, and posix-compliant behaviour is to stay silent, if everything is fine. If your command was wrong, you'd get an error message
06:39<@planetmaker>and you surely know what commands you sent
06:40<peter1139>POSIX-compliant OpenTTD console!
06:43<@planetmaker>granted, long way there :)
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06:58<peter1139>Readline and tab-completion? :p
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07:01<Rubidium>I doubt the console will ever be posix compliant
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07:20<grepwood>What part of the code deals in game config?
07:23<Samu>hey st2
07:24<Samu>xT2: hey
07:29<Rubidium>grepwood: I'd guess most if it has setting or config in the file name
07:29<Rubidium>(latter for game script / AI configuration)
07:29<Samu>i am trying to build a small but "expert" type of rail network that permits fast trains to overtake slow trains using only two lines that can be used in either direction, kinda like I currently do, but without the limitation of a maximum of 3 trains. If anyone wants to help, pls PM
07:33<V453000>"expert" usually means not mixing train speeds :P
07:33<Samu>"smart" then
07:34<V453000>I dont think creating pointless issues is smart :)
07:34<Samu>I can do the first part fine, but 3 trains are the limit
07:35<Samu>4 trains creates the possibility of them blocking each other
07:35<SylvieLorxu>Probably a silly question, but if I put an aircraft in the hangar, do I still have any costs involved with it such as the yearly running costs?
07:37<grepwood>Rubidium, exactly
07:37<grepwood>I'm asking what part of the source code deals with reading those from the file
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07:39<Samu>train 1 direction >> X-junction << train 2 direction
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07:40<Samu>train 3 direction >> X-junction == free path
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07:40<Samu>3 moves first, then 1 or 2 advances and takes the other line
07:41<Samu>then the last one goes straight
07:41<LordAro>grepwood: "if it has setting or config in the file name"
07:43<Samu>if there's a train 4 where the free path is and is heading to X-junction, creates a deadlock
07:43<Samu>how do I avoid this?
07:46<peter1139>Don't lay signals like that.
07:46<peter1139>Remember the safe-waiting-point principle.
07:47<Samu>sorry, a small mistake in my explanation
07:48<Samu>3 moves first, 2 moves next, because 1 can't go to where 3 is headed to
07:48<Samu>and lastly, 1 moves last, and straight
07:49<Samu>i can show you in-game
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07:50<Samu>i need a mix of entry signals with path signals, but i'm noob with entry signals
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07:51<Samu>path signal must reserve in advance so that it triggers the entry signal's red far away on the other side
07:51<Samu>i just dont know how to build this
07:52<V453000>path signals dont Really react to entry signals
07:52<Samu>so i need entry-exit signals
07:53<V453000>if you want any kind of logic, yes
07:54<Jomann>anyone knows how to run openttd in dosbox? because my Linux version freezes every now and then. Doesn't matter what distro.
07:54<V453000>why would you run openttd in dospox :d
07:56<Jomann>as explained above. In linux openttd freezes whole system from time to time. it may has to do with sound, but not sure.
07:56<peter1139>Does OpenTTD even compile for DOS?
07:57<Jomann>not sure
07:57<peter1139>There's no automatic DOS build, anyway.
07:57<V453000>I believe for many people openttd works just fine under linux
07:57<Jomann>or how to enable debug, maybe I can read debug log after next crash?
07:57<Jomann>yeah sure, for me too. Except this annoying freeze
07:57<peter1139>Well, does it freeze or crash?
07:58<peter1139>Check the command line options to enable debugging.
07:58<Jomann>it freezes whole system. Can't do anything, only solution is reset
08:06<Samu>X-junction // train 1 direction >> X-junction << train 2 direction // X-junction == free path 2
08:06<Samu>-junction // train 3 direction >> X-junction == free path 1 == X-junction == free path 3
08:06<Samu>sorry, i need help
08:07<Samu>path 2 and 3 signals should turn red when train 3 crosses the 2nd X-junction
08:07<LordAro>Jomann: either way, linux is a lot better supported than dos
08:08<Samu>i need pre-signals somewhere
08:09<peter1139>No you don't. You can't have bidirectional lines working like that.
08:09<LordAro>i think only 1 or 2 of the devs (fonsinchen?) use windows for normal development
08:09<Jomann>yeah I Know. But it is annoying with those crashes :(
08:10<LordAro>if it's actually crashing, upload the crash reports somewhere
08:10<Samu>doesn't pre-signals work bi-directionaly?
08:10<peter1139>Stick to one-way lines with no X-junctions, or expand in parallel and have at least one set of one-way lines.
08:10<LordAro>if it's freezing, that's a little more difficult - trying running with debugging turned on
08:10<Jomann>LordAro, it freezes whole system. I just update system and then start openttd with debug on. Maybe I have debug log after reset
08:11<peter1139>debug output doesn't write to a file, so make sure you can see it.
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>bidirectional lines only work properly with path signals
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>not with presignals
08:11<Jomann>how, when it freezes? :) Okay maybe window mode and terminal beneeth
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>Jomann: freezes are usually device drivers going wrong. or hardware problems
08:13<peter1139>Yup, it's not going to be caused by anything OpenTTD does.
08:13<Jomann>hm. Thats why I thought some problem with pulseaudio. Because amarok and qmmp freeze too after some time. luckily not whole system
08:13<peter1139>Or rather, not caused by OpenTTD misbehaving.
08:14<peter1139>Heh, wait, is it "completely frozen" because you're running in full-screen mode and don't know who to switch it out?
08:14<peter1139>(Even so, PA shouldn't freeze)
08:15<Jomann>no it was always windowed mode with free mouse
08:16<Samu>I can build entry signals on both ways in 1 line, but you say it doesn't work? I don't understand
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08:18<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: ypu can't filter out which exit signal to react on
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08:45<Samu>signal, signal, junction, signal, signal - train must be minimum 3 tiles, or is it 4? the read end must trigger the first signal
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08:49<V453000>seriously the fact that you dont take a screenshot to post it makes me wtf :D
08:49<V453000>[wtf is a verb now]
08:51<V453000>yeah that doesnt really make much sense
08:51<peter1139>You're still trying, even after people said it can't be done? :p
08:51<Samu>yeah, im stuborn
08:51<Samu>if it doesn't work one way, it could work some other way
08:53<V453000>perhaps learn how signals work first, there is a lot of helpful people around openttdcoop servers if you need assistance
08:55<Samu>hmm nop, this didn't work t.t
08:55<Samu>ok, gonna search that server
08:55<Samu>newgrf mismatch
09:01<Godde>wrong channel :D
09:02<Godde>Btw are you supposed to be able to resize the game window on linux?
09:02<Godde>I can resize the window, but the game resolution itself doesn't change
09:07<peter1139>Yes, you can resize the window on Linux.
09:07<Samu>there's no one in there to help
09:16<V453000>Samu: perhaps constructing something and asking others if they know how to solve it is more constructive than just asking in words :D
09:17<@planetmaker>V453000, he'd build what he showed in the screenshot... presumably
09:17<@planetmaker>probably autoclean would catch that company rather soon
09:18<Samu>are you there in the opencoop game?
09:18<Samu>i'm returning then
09:18<@planetmaker>Not today. I only have the server logs ;)
09:18<@planetmaker>and chat logs
09:18<@planetmaker>but maybe V453000 does have time
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10:12<Eddi|zuHause><Godde> I can resize the window, but the game resolution itself doesn't change <-- i've had that issue when resizing both directions at once. if i only resize one direction, it works
10:12<Godde>It seems to work when compiled from source
10:12<Godde>Problem is gone for now atleast
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>it's an SDL issue
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>i think someone might have adressed it, but i can't remember
10:13<@planetmaker>yup, that's SDL
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10:39<peter1139>Gnome's lock screen is painfully stupid.
10:39<peter1139>Half the time it won't actually blank all my screens...
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11:06<SylvieLorxu>Eddi|zuHause: I... I... I don't even...
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11:45<SylvieLorxu>Is there a way to disable lifestock and have farms only generate grain? I know it's "just a game" but it's just too gruesome to transport lifestock to a factory >_>
11:45<SylvieLorxu>(OpenTTD 1.1.4)
11:48<SylvieLorxu>(For now I'm just commiting economical suicide and only adding a grain hopper to the train, but yeah)
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11:51<Eddi|zuHause>make a newgrf
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>although it needs to be an "oldgrf" to be compatible with 1.1, you should really update to 1.4
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11:55<SylvieLorxu>I'll go and look into what this whole newgrf stuff is
11:56<@Alberth>change climate, in subtropical you have maize and wheat
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11:56<@Alberth>in toy land you only have a toy factory :)
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12:06<peter1139>ps aux
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12:09<SylvieLorxu>Thanks, Alberth
12:10<@planetmaker>play with FIRS. Totally different NewGRFs :P
12:10<@planetmaker>But update to 1.4 before that - you will find most modern NewGRFs to not work anymore on versions as old as 1.1
12:11<Superuser>lol, classic SylvieLorxu
12:11<Superuser>never thought I'd see you in here.
12:11<SylvieLorxu>Superuser: Oh, hey, it's you
12:12<SylvieLorxu>planetmaker: It's the version that's in the Trisquel repos and I'm lazy, but yeah, I probably should...
12:13<Superuser>it's *very* old, it also lacks the new settings screen which makes it actually tolerable to use (among other things)
12:14<Superuser>the nice thing is that ottd has a continuous integration system that builds linux packages *and* static builds that you can take anywhere and they will just work
12:14<SylvieLorxu>I keep forgetting what Trisquel 6 is based on
12:14<SylvieLorxu>It's the previous Ubuntu LTS
12:14<@planetmaker>SylvieLorxu, it's >~ 3 years old
12:14<SylvieLorxu>Oh, that bad?
12:15<Superuser>you can also download the nightly, though 1.4.0 was literally just released
12:15<@planetmaker>at least the OpenTTD they ship
12:15<Superuser>yeah, huge huge improvements have taken place since then, including my ~3300 string translation
12:16*SylvieLorxu grabs the 32 bit Precise package
12:16<SylvieLorxu>I think that's the one I need
12:17<@planetmaker>SylvieLorxu, grab the one from our website :)
12:17<SylvieLorxu>I am ^^
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12:21<SylvieLorxu>I wonder what's new, should look up a changelog
12:21<@planetmaker>lots of things :)
12:22<@planetmaker>LordAro, wrong spelling ;) quak
12:22*Alberth waves
12:22<LordAro>planetmaker: mostly intentional :p
12:22<frosch123>hai :)
12:24<SylvieLorxu>LordAro: Thanks!
12:26<SylvieLorxu>Okay, a whole lot changed
12:27<Superuser>SylvieLorxu: also seeing as you're just getting started and have a half-decent rig, I'd highly recommend zBase
12:28<Superuser>it's a 32-bit graphics pack, you can get it from in game. You use nouveau but that should not be an issue, only the card's memory counts for this as it's litelly a bunch of sprites
12:28<SylvieLorxu>Superuser: I'm not on my desktop :P
12:28<Superuser>and we have the same graphics card so I can vouch for it working very well :)
12:28<Superuser>oh... err ok
12:28<peter1139>I can vouch for zBase looking like shit compare to original.
12:29*SylvieLorxu is on the X60s, with integrated Intel graphics, yay!
12:29<Superuser>peter1139: I disagree, and I grew up on the original AND 8bit for ottd
12:29<Superuser>as soon as I got a good pc (my previous one was a low end from 2002) I replaced it zbase and never looked back
12:29<Superuser>but art is subjective :)
12:31*Alberth is glad it is
12:34<SylvieLorxu>OpenTTD 1.4.0 is all laggy on the title screen :(
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12:37<Superuser>try erasing your config
12:37<Superuser>rm -rf ~/.openttd
12:38<@planetmaker>ehm, no!
12:38<@Alberth>rm ~/.openttd/openttd.cfg perhaps
12:40<@planetmaker>Superuser, please be very careful what you advise. You just recommended to delete all screenshots, savegames, newgrfs, AIs and whatever he might have gathered or produced with openttd
12:41<Superuser>fair point
12:41<Superuser>though I do have a strange habit of doing clean installs for everything
12:42<@Alberth>Superuser: I'd reformat the C: drive every time if I were you
12:43<@Alberth>or rm -rf / in unix terms :)
12:43<@planetmaker>rm -rf /* :P
12:44<@Alberth>so much for "force" :p
12:45<SylvieLorxu>--no-preserve-root is necessary
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12:47<Superuser>not with /*
12:48<@Alberth>dd < /dev/zero > /dev/sda will work too :p
12:48<LordAro>dd < /dev/urandom > /dev/sda :p
12:49<LordAro>or /dev/random, for that cryptographically secure deletion :p
12:49<@Alberth>I think you'll run out of random bits very fast :)
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>if you use /dev/random you're not done before the police arrives
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>/dev/urandom is faster
12:55<Godde>But then you can't be completely sure noone is monitoring your deletion D:
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>you could also overwrite the drive encryption key (and its backup)
12:59<@Alberth>just buy a new drive, you never know what the old bits were used for :p
12:59<@planetmaker>iew. Used bits? I want fresh bits on my new drive!
13:00<@planetmaker>Not the rotten ones. I have them already myself here in some corner
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>if your bitburger is rotten then you did something wrong
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13:33<SylvieLorxu>It's still slow by the way, I think that it's purely because the title screen of 1.4.0 displays WAY more busses/etc. than the one in 1.1.4
13:35<@planetmaker>you could try to change in your ~/.openttd/openttd.cfg one setting for the memory reserved for graphics:
13:35<@planetmaker>sprite_cache_size_px = 512
13:35<@planetmaker>instead of the other value you might have
13:35<@planetmaker>maybe it helps
13:36<@planetmaker>if you have the necessary ram
13:37<SylvieLorxu>I have 3GB so I assume it'd work
13:37<Superuser>yeah if it's lagging on that screen, you prob don't want to run zBase...
13:37<Superuser>definitely give it a go on desktop though if you like the game ^^
13:37<SylvieLorxu>A bit more initial loading delay, but after that, seems way better
13:38<Superuser>also the title screen games are very unrealistic
13:38<Superuser>in a real game, it's not nearly as hectic
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>lag on the title screen is rarely because there's so much going on
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>because it's not actually that much compared to a real game on a large map
13:45<SylvieLorxu>Eddi|zuHause: It's the most apparent difference between the 1.1.4 title screen (which had no issues) and the 1.4.0 one, and planetmaker's tip did seem to help
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26540 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2014-04-29 17:45:18 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>basque - 9 changes by laxkax
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan - 10 changes by juanjo
13:45<@DorpsGek>italian - 12 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>SylvieLorxu: actually the difference that makes the difference here is the new zoom modes and 32bpp graphics
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>SylvieLorxu: there are a loooot of differences under the hood
13:47<SylvieLorxu>Eddi|zuHause: Hmm... Well, the tip seems to work so far, but what should I look for if I have further issues?
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>let's not worry about that until you have actual issues :p
13:49<SylvieLorxu>Fair enough
13:49<SylvieLorxu>Oh yeah, it also asks me to update the base graphics set because it's missing a number of sprites :(
13:50<SylvieLorxu>Oh, I see
13:50<SylvieLorxu>Online content manager has it
13:50<SylvieLorxu>Still weird that I have to do that after a new install :x
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13:55<Eddi|zuHause>well it reuses the files you had from your previous install
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>the main program does not include any graphics
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>it will download some if you don't have any, but if you have old ones, it doesn't automatically update
13:56<Superuser>which is why I recommended wiping .openttd
13:57<Superuser>anyway ottd is the lightest game ever
13:57<Superuser>I'd give up playing games on that laptop altogether
13:57<SylvieLorxu>(It's so difficult to find out the license of stuff...)
13:57<Superuser>(roguelikes don't map to laptop controls so even those are out of the question)
13:57<SylvieLorxu>Superuser: Nethack is lighter
13:57<Superuser>but the controls don't work =p
13:57<Superuser>you need a numpad
13:57<SylvieLorxu>Not really
13:58<Superuser>unless you like remapping lots of keys
13:58<SylvieLorxu>I just need to switch back to qwerty for Nethack but meh...
13:58<SylvieLorxu>Can't be bothered
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14:09<Eddi|zuHause>do not wipe .openttd
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>it's not worth the trouble
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14:19<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by frosch :: r26541 /branches/1.4 (16 files in 3 dirs) (2014-04-29 18:18:52 UTC)
14:19<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: [1.4] -Backport from trunk:
14:19<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: Prevent comparing to NULL when strndup could not allocate memory (r26476)
14:19<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: Potentially undefined shifts in NewGRF code (r26475)
14:19<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: Make sure there is no uninitialised sprite data (r26473)
14:19<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: (...)
14:21<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26542 /branches/1.4 (3 files in 3 dirs) (2014-04-29 18:21:49 UTC)
14:21<@DorpsGek>[1.4] -Backport from trunk:
14:21<@DorpsGek>- Change: Remove demand calculation based on tiles (r26484)
14:22<@DorpsGek>- Fix: Allow single-vehicle consists to station-refit in a meaningful way (r26483)
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14:35<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26543 /branches/1.4 (5 files in 5 dirs) (2014-04-29 18:35:01 UTC)
14:35<@DorpsGek>[1.4] -Backport from trunk:
14:35<@DorpsGek>- Fix: Buffer overruns in handling of symbolic links inside tars (r26514)
14:35<@DorpsGek>- Fix: Incorrect usage of strecpy (r26505, r26485)
14:35<@DorpsGek>- Fix: Reading console input on dedicated server relied on unspecified behaviour (r26496)
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14:41<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by frosch :: r26544 /branches/1.4 (27 files in 11 dirs) (2014-04-29 18:41:19 UTC)
14:41<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: [1.4] -Backport from trunk:
14:41<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: [Windows] Crash when the operating system performs the "paint" callback during window creation [FS#5994] (r26539, r26538)
14:41<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: OpenBSD compilation [FS#5992] (r26523)
14:41<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: - Fix: prevent from ever reading huge (or negative) amounts of data in strgen (r26521)
14:41<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: (...)
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15:09<Xaroth|Work>he's at it again
15:11<Phreeze>cya Bayern
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15:36<Eddi|zuHause>who cares?
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15:37<Eddi|zuHause>this keeps getting better
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15:41*sylvieL slowly claps
15:41-!-sylvieL is now known as SylvieLorxu
15:41<frosch123>does that change your nick?
15:42<SylvieLorxu>Haha, no
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>clap on clap off?
15:42<SylvieLorxu>I dc'd, and XChat doesn't automatically change it back to my preferred nick
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15:43<Eddi|zuHause>you can probably script that
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>bien sur
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15:58<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: having auto-filled a timetable, how do I force the vehicle separation?
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: ctrl+click on "start date", then each ship will wait at its first order
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>at least with ships you'll have no problems with overtaking and stuff
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>suggestion for airplanes: an airplane will not attempt to land (stay in waiting loop) until its "travel time" has run out
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>(in turn means "wait time" has to include taxiing)
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>(or plane timetables need two separate timings for travelling)
16:05<Samu>balancing aircraft?
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16:08<Samu>turn on inflation
16:09<Phreeze>inflation sucks
16:09-!-jjavaholic [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:09<Samu>turn on normal breakdowns
16:09<Phreeze>does inflation include cargo payment ?
16:09<Phreeze>so why do i make less and less profit ? :)
16:09<Phreeze>i had a game with 50 years inflation
16:10<Phreeze>an engine cost me 1.4million eur xD
16:10<Samu>that should balance aircraft
16:10<Samu>can't mass em
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>inflation for income is lower than for expenses
16:11<Samu>problem with inflation is who joins later in the game
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>after 170 years of inflation, you need about 5 times the income
16:12<Phreeze>which is weird, cause stuff gets more expensive cause of industries etc
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>@calc (1.ß4/1.03)**170
16:12<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
16:12<Samu>how does the loan work with inflation?
16:12<Phreeze>so people must pay more for the train
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>@calc (1.04/1.03)**170
16:12<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 5.16820201339
16:13<Samu>the permissable max loan on year 170?
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: max loan gets increased
16:13<Phreeze>when inflation reaches "high" amounts, you loan is long payed off ;)
16:13<Phreeze>isnt it fixed ??
16:13<Phreeze>like 1 mio max ?
16:13<Phreeze>so it will be 2mio
16:13<Phreeze>400max * 5
16:13<Phreeze>@calc 400*5
16:13<@DorpsGek>Phreeze: 2000
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>@calc (1.04)**170
16:14<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 786.443777924
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>that's the actual inflation
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>so if it was 1Mio at game start, it's 786Mio after 170 years
16:15<Samu>but everything costs 5 times more, right?
16:15<Samu>not good :(
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>especially short routes will become unprofitable
16:16<Samu>is it even possible to start any route by then? 170 years after, starting as a new company?
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16:17<Eddi|zuHause>probably not
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>you have to balance out the inflation spread by your network effect, a fresh route will never have any such effect
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16:19<Eddi|zuHause>with your start loan you can buy the same number of vehicles/tracks, but the running costs will eat you up
16:19<Samu>I see
16:24<andythenorth>what causes auto-refit to fail?
16:24<andythenorth>it’s an issue with my grf
16:25<@planetmaker>good evening
16:25<andythenorth>auto-refit / auto-replace
16:25<andythenorth>stupid andythenorth
16:26<andythenorth>the auto-replace UI allows me to set up the auto-replace rule
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>"The christian-democratic party (conservatives) are outraged about (social-democratic/labour) former chancellor Schröder attending Putin's birthday party, even though the christian-democratic head of foreign policy was also attending the party"
16:26<andythenorth>but it fails silently in depot
16:26<andythenorth>force-upgrade button fails also
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: wagon-attach callback?
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16:27<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: not used
16:27<andythenorth>cargo refits don’t match 100%
16:28<andythenorth>wonder if it’s that
16:28<@planetmaker>they better match. iirc
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>you mean cargos or cargo subtypes?
16:29<andythenorth>the currently refitted cargo in the source vehicle is a valid refit for the target (new) vehicle
16:29<andythenorth>but the values for refittable properties are not identical for both types
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>does it work if you separate the vehicles from the chain, and then use the upgrade button?
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>did you set autoreplace for the correct vehicle group?
16:30<andythenorth>no groups
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16:34<andythenorth>it’s specific to some vehicles
16:34<andythenorth>can’t figure out why
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>you use refit callback in weird ways?
16:40<andythenorth>I used refitted capacity
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>that may be a source of trouble, but needs further debugging, which is hard when you canÄt actually interact with it
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>replace happens in 3 basic steps: 1) the new vehicles are purchased, 2) the refit is attempting to copy the original refit, 3) the consist is re-assembled, discarding some wagons if option is set
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>if all these steps succeed, the cargo is transferred to the new consist and the old consist sold
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16:44<andythenorth>I’ve narrowed it down to a specific class of vehicles
16:44<andythenorth>must be a mistake in my code
16:47<Wolf01>'night all
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16:51<andythenorth>a clue
16:52<andythenorth>refrigerated food cars are a valid replacement for pax-only carriages
16:52<andythenorth>according to auto-replace UI :P
16:53<@planetmaker>:D Bon appetit!
16:53<andythenorth>it’s like a conspiracy-nut plot :P
16:55*andythenorth suspects the default cargo type on the lead vehicle
16:56<andythenorth>thought I fixed that :P
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21:22<Twyster>I've got a problem saving a scenario. "File not writable" and I've tried running the game as an administrator and saving it to other locations. Just got the computer back from the shop yesterday so that might have something to do with it.
21:38<Eddi|zuHause>probably something to do with directory permissions
21:39<Eddi|zuHause>can you try a USB drive or something?
21:40<Twyster>It's running off of a USB external drive, but the default save directory is in My Documents.
21:41<Twyster>The first place I tried to save it to to fix the problem was on the external drive the game was running off of.
21:44<Eddi|zuHause>usually when this happens people try to write to the program files directory or something
21:45<Eddi|zuHause>but can you check the directory permissions anyway?
21:46<Eddi|zuHause>it could in theory also be an antivirus or similar protection mechanism
21:47<Twyster>Everything except special permissions is checked on the default (My Documents) directory. Checking the external drive now...
21:47<Eddi|zuHause>but i have nmver heard of that actually happening
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21:49<Twyster>Yeah, all permissions except special permissions are enabled. Maybe the Nightly has a bug?
21:50<Eddi|zuHause>i find that unlikely
21:50<Eddi|zuHause>but you can try another version without closing your current one
21:50<Eddi|zuHause>just download the zip and unpack it
21:53<Twyster>I just tried the last stable release. No problems. Something went wrong.
21:53<Twyster>With the Nightly I mean.
21:54<Eddi|zuHause>can you find out which exact nightly starts to go wrong?
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21:56<Twyster>I was using r26540. I'll go back through the revisions one by one after I check the change logs for likely culprits.
21:57<Eddi|zuHause>try also using that nightly installed on other locations? in case it's really like an antivirus blocking the writing
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22:01<Twyster>r26540 and the Last Stable were installed in the same folder (different subfolders for each of course). I don't think it's Bitdefender.
22:03<Twyster>I just swapped the locations of the installation. Put r26540 into a temporary folder and put the Last Stable into the folder that r26540 was in.
22:03<Twyster>The stable didn't have a problem saving a scenario.
22:05<Twyster>r26539 had a change where "Fix [FS#5994]: [Windows] Crash due to assuming (formerly) _video_driver is being set before the operating system has time to perform the first "paint" callback". The shop I got my computer fixed at did a video driver adjustment. But...
22:06<Twyster>r26526 had a change in the handling of scenario generation. "Remove: Ability to set map generation seed via GUI. If you really need it, use the console."
22:06<Twyster>I'm going to test the revisions preceeding those two first.
22:06<Eddi|zuHause>nothing of that should matter
22:10<Twyster>Where are the revision downloads? I think there's nothing for it but to go back one-by-one and test them all.
22:11<Eddi|zuHause>you can get the nightlies at
22:12<Eddi|zuHause>but if you want individual revisions you need to check out the source and compile
22:15<Twyster>I guess I'll be playing the stable release for now... Thanks for your help.
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---Logclosed Wed Apr 30 00:00:50 2014