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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-05-01

---Logopened Thu May 01 00:00:52 2014
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01:20<DanMacK>Hey all
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02:38<V453000>I am seriously starting to wonder about size if I want to animate every industry tile with 250 frames
02:38<V453000>size as in total newgrf size
02:38<V453000>them data
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02:43<Supercheese>As a wise alien once said: Size matters not.
02:43<V453000>16 industries, 16 tiles each, 256 frames per animation? would be 65536 sprites (plus 3x16x16 static ones for inactive state and 2 construction stages?), 66304 where I expect maximum of 1 mb per sprite
02:43<V453000>66 gb?
02:44<V453000>the 1 mb per sprite might be underestimated, too
02:46<V453000>hm somehow 1/16th sprite seems to have only HALF size when compared to the full 16-tile sprite
02:46<V453000>perhaps making the first corner sprite large as hell would be good
02:47<V453000>like 4x4 tiles large
02:48<V453000>well, a thing to consider later, models first
02:50<V453000>hm nay
02:50<V453000>for some reason manual png save saves it as 700kb, while automated render makes 137kb? :D
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02:50<V453000>oh different resolution
02:51<V453000>well that still is 6GB :D
02:52<V453000>or so
02:52<V453000>perhaps I can make most animations shorter
02:53<V453000>but coding it as one sprite would still be awesome (:
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02:53<V453000>now it has 51kb per file
02:54<V453000>well it will work somehow
02:58<Supercheese>I'm sure you can make it work given enough thought and effort
02:58<V453000>which world do you live in
03:00<V453000>I guess most industries dont even need a long animation. But the idea of coding it as 1 large sprite is puzzling me
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03:19<Eddi|zuHause>how do you get 1MB per sprite?
03:21<Eddi|zuHause>and you can have child sprites for the animated parts
03:22<V453000>idk, I got like max 100kb atm :d
03:23<V453000>anyway, is it possible to have 1 large sprite for 4x4 industri?
03:23<V453000>like coded at the front
03:23<V453000>and have the rest of 4x4 get just empty sprite
03:24<Eddi|zuHause>not really
03:24<V453000>why not? :d
03:25<V453000>hy (:
03:25<Eddi|zuHause>you get glitches if the sprite extends too far to the left and right
03:25<@planetmaker>@calc 64*172*4*4*4
03:25<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 704512
03:25<V453000>but glitches with what? the ground?
03:25<@planetmaker>so I'd expect even for an over-sized house sprite at most 700kB
03:25<Eddi|zuHause>like it will disappear if you scroll halfway out
03:25<@planetmaker>sprites must never be wider than a tile
03:26<V453000>hm ok :)
03:26<@planetmaker>cut it in several ones which are drawn on adjacent tiles
03:27<V453000>I do that currently yes, it just has little less-than-a-pixel gaps in between
03:27<V453000>of aplha
03:27<Eddi|zuHause>you can have one single image file, but you have to cut it into several sprites in the code
03:27<@planetmaker>I'd do like eddi suggest: one file which you cut the sprites from directly in the nml code
03:27<V453000>well sure but that isnt really helping, would have to do too much cutting :P
03:28<V453000>so the code alone can cut sprites
03:28<@planetmaker>sure. just define the rectangle which is the sprite
03:28<@planetmaker>you only have to make sure that it adds up to a whole ingame. Thus no overlap, but also no gap
03:29<Eddi|zuHause>overlap doesn't hurt
03:29<@planetmaker>it's like creating a puzzle by cutting the image
03:29<@planetmaker>but cutting it in the image programme is not required
03:30<V453000>great :)
03:30<V453000>that is one less thing to worry about
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05:13<@planetmaker>that's a first... no new postings at tt-forums
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06:15<Samu>this is a nice page explaining how trains accelerate
06:16<Samu>will it apply to road vehicles realistic acceleration too?
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06:28<Samu>:(, but will it apply to road vehicles?
06:28<Samu>is the ton used in the example metric ton or imperial ton?
06:28<Samu>which one the game uses to calculate?
06:29<Xaroth|Work>the difference is 1.6% ...
06:29<Xaroth|Work>I mean.. does that really matter?
06:30<Samu>I am not sure
06:30<@planetmaker>rethoric questions are rethoric, I guess
06:31<Xaroth|Work>it'd be an issue if it was not clear if it were a short or a long ton
06:31<@planetmaker>openttd knows them all...
06:32<@planetmaker>@calc 716*8
06:32<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 5728
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06:33<Samu>how did you come up with the 35 N constant
06:35<Xaroth|Work>define 'you'
06:35<Samu>ah, nevermind
06:35<Samu>the force needed to move on superficies
06:36<@planetmaker>you can go and simply measure it
06:39<Samu>so it all boils down to tractive effort
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06:39<Samu>were those values on vehicles made up
06:40<Samu>it really feels that vehicles move faster with realistic acceleration than original
06:42<Pinkbeast>Sometimes they do because of the way a slope is essentially a fixed malus to speed in original
06:43<Pinkbeast>... for example a heavy freight locomotive with a train of empties will be faster up a slope with realistic acceleration, I think
06:43<Samu>were tractive effort values available on original TTD hidden somewhere in the files?
06:44<Pinkbeast>metric vs. imperial ton> "How Steam Locomotives Really Work" dismisses this with the observation that a week's worth of dirt on a locomotive could more than make up the difference. :-)
06:45<Samu>I'm trying to come up with similar settings
06:45<Samu>for realistic acceleration
06:45<Samu>to be comparable with original acceleration
06:46<Samu>realistic still accelerate much faster when starting up from 0 km/h
06:47<Pinkbeast>That does depend on tractive effort (try the UKRS2 4-2-0 Crampton on a hill start, then rearrange all your signal positions so one never starts uphill)
06:47<Samu>then, they reach a cliff and things get more complicated to adjust
06:47<Samu>i can increase a simulated weight
06:52<Samu>reaching hills is where things get complicated to adjust as I was saying. when a train is going up hill and then downhill, and the whole size of it accounts for both up and down tiles, the force nullifies each other, don't know if I'm being clear
06:52<Samu>if it needs 100 to go up, what happens when it starts going down?
06:52<Pinkbeast>Well, that's true in realistic if the train is of uniform density
06:53<Samu>yes, but is it supposed to be like that?
06:54<Samu>or 100-100
06:54<Samu>or am I totally wrong?
06:54<Samu>how does it work in the game
06:55<Samu>that's the question
06:56<supermop>pub successful
06:56<Pinkbeast>I think you'd do best to look at the source rather than rely on anyone's half-remembered memory of the original acceleration model, I'm afraid
06:56<@planetmaker>they had enough beer, supermop ? :)
06:56<@planetmaker>or is there a different scale of success?
06:57<Samu>looking at there
06:57<Pinkbeast>I strongly suspect if you get tractive effort low enough to produce original-like acceleration from the flat, vehicles will be nightmarishly slow uphill
06:57<@planetmaker>original acceleration makes no use of tractive effort. iirc
06:57<Pinkbeast>planetmaker: Indeed.
06:57<Samu>i am referring to realistic
06:57<supermop>beer nd food planetmaker
06:58<Pinkbeast>But if I understand correctly, Samu is trying to give vehicles stats for realistic acceleration which produce performance similar to original acceleration?
06:58<Samu>exactly, similar, but I know it's not gonna be equal
06:58<@planetmaker>sounds nice enough, supermop :)
06:58<Samu>the main problem I have is hills
06:58<Samu>going up, then down
06:59<Samu>while the train is still taking up both up and down tiles
06:59<Samu>that's the most difficult part to come up with similar settings
06:59<@planetmaker>the main problem you have is that you need to understand how TE and power work for vehicles acceleration. And how that is influenced by a slope
06:59<Pinkbeast>Samu: I think (if the density of the train is uniform) then going up-and-down will do very little regardless of vehicle power and TE
07:00<@planetmaker>openttd uses the simple physics formula there. With the variables for power, te, slope, air friction coeff., mass etc as given by vehicles and game config
07:00<Samu>so it's a +100 when going up, then -100 when going down? per tile?
07:00<Samu>given the wiki example
07:00<Samu>i'm guiding myself from there
07:01<Pinkbeast>Samu: That 100N is just 1 tonne x (one percent incline) x gravity at 10m/s/s
07:02<Pinkbeast>As in, it's not an arbitary figure in the game, it's the actual force of gravity. So unless someone has ballsed it up, I expect it is the inverse when going downslope
07:03<supermop>hmm could a vehicle with 0 hp accelerate provided it only ever traversed flat and downward slopes?
07:03*planetmaker goes try wasteland2. The OpenTTD wasteland newgrf inspired me to finally redeem my beta access :P
07:04<@planetmaker>supermop, on level slope 0hp won't give you acceleration
07:04<@planetmaker>obviously downhill you don't need much power to accelerate. You might need a tiny bit to overcome the rolling friction
07:04<@planetmaker>depends on steepness and rolling friction coeff
07:05<Pinkbeast>Part of the reason steam locomotives accelerate so fast with realistic acceleration is power ~= grate area, which is fine at sustained speed, but maximum tractive effort at a start is a function of boiler pressure and cylinder dimensions as well as traction
07:05<supermop>hmm seems my dreams of logs on log flumes will be dashed
07:05<@planetmaker>and mass on powered axles
07:05<Pinkbeast>planetmaker: Er... that's "traction"
07:06<Samu>air friction coeff. think that's what it's missing
07:06<Samu>or density
07:07<Pinkbeast>If gives a sensible figure for rolling resistance, an unpowered train will accelerate from a stop downgrade even on a 1% slope (but the code might first check vehicle power >0 or something...)
07:08<Samu>the faster it goes, the higher the impact of air friction
07:08<Samu>so, going downhill, train won't retain much of the speed
07:09<Samu>(or i just don't know what I'm talking about and suck at physics)
07:09<@planetmaker>F_friction ~ v^2 --> P_friction ~ v^3
07:12<Pinkbeast>But power input from gravity is also proportional to v so the effect in an unpowered descent is less
07:13<@planetmaker>power input from gravity? That's independent of v. It's acceleration is constant g * tan alpha
07:13<Pinkbeast>planetmaker: Nope.
07:14<Pinkbeast>At what rate do you turn potential energy into kinetic energy?
07:14<@planetmaker>more tea
07:14<Pinkbeast>Put another way, the force is constant, but work is force times distance, so if you travel faster, you do more work per unit time.
07:14<Pinkbeast>... this is why tandems are scary downhill
07:17<peter1139>Anyone done 'realistic' slowing yet? :p
07:17<Pinkbeast>There've been one or two patches with caution aspects on signals...
07:17<peter1139>Also, 'realistic' acceleration for trains, taking account of the fact that they don't actually accelerate as fast as they can't due to passenger discomfort.
07:18<juzza1>is discomfort level in metric or imperial?
07:19<Pinkbeast>Er, not really. The coefficient of friction is low enough that even modern units with all powered axles try and get away as fast as possible.
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07:19<peter1139>But I've played train sims!
07:19<peter1139>And I have to accelerate slowly else I get told off!
07:20<sylvieL>I've played train sims too
07:20<sylvieL>I just accelerated until I crashed
07:20<sylvieL>Found it the most exciting way to play them
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07:20<peter1139>Same with flight sims :D
07:20<supermop>some subway drivers like to take full advantage of their 64 powered axles in new york, and it can be quite a jolt...
07:21<Pinkbeast>That's more down to the next derivative; it's easy to get wheelslip if you slam it straight into the top notch, and also while the pax can easily bear maximum acceleration (about 1/8 g at most) they don't like a sudden transition to it.
07:21<peter1139>And with driving sims, I tend to crash without trying.
07:21<peter1139>Pinkbeast, fine, then I mean rate of acceleration.
07:21<Pinkbeast>Likewise stopping on a rising brake; you can brake heavily, but the jerk if you suddenly go from that to a dead stop is more serious
07:22<Pinkbeast>peter1139: I think you mean the rate of change of acceleration?
07:22<peter1139>Damn it
07:22<Pinkbeast>And the emergency brake doesn't do _much_ more than a full service application, but it causes more damage because it comes on as quickly as possible
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07:23<peter1139>Anyway, anyone done that for ottd? :P
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07:24<Pinkbeast>I figure once you've got caution aspects with PBS reserving multiple segments it should be feasible...
07:27<supermop>plus bug reports from users when a signal changes to red before a junction and their train flys through it as it can't stop in time
07:27<Pinkbeast>Well, that's a bug in the real world. :-)
07:29<supermop>really we need a setting to have drivers occasionally forget to obey a signal
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07:29<Samu>that's a nice disaster suggestion
07:29<Samu>i really hate trains
07:29<supermop>the disasters should be opened up to new grf and or GS
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07:30<Pinkbeast>supermop: And then you could spend money on AWS
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07:30<Pinkbeast>But already the situation where road vehicles are perfectly safe (except around trains) and railways are quite dangerous is a bit silly
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07:30<supermop>and paying class action settlements to families of the passengers
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07:31<supermop>i'd like to see non-disastrous disasters
07:31<Pinkbeast>In the early days AWS availability could be an additional way to differentiate locomotives, more seriously - frex in UK terms the GWR locomotives would always have it
07:35<peter1139>Pinkbeast, pretty sure that would come under BAD FEATURES
07:38<Pinkbeast>peter1139: I think it depends on one's point of view. It seems to me that getting ways to differentiate vehicles that aren't speed, power, capacity, cost is one of the big challenges for larger vehicle sets.
07:38<Pinkbeast>... it doesn't help that reliability and breakdowns are in such a parlous state
07:38<peter1139>It's not my view at all.
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07:40<Pinkbeast>Well, opinions may vary, but even if you don't feel that way yourself, I'm sure you recognise there are people who would like sets to exist where (say) the Jubilee, Black 5, Castle, King, Hall, er one or two LNER 4-6-0s etc all exist and there are reasons why one might use each one
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07:42<supermop>also, for an ideally child-friendly game, why not change the 'bribe' strings to something like 'donation/investment to local institutions' 'massive PR campaign' or even 'lobby local government'
07:42<supermop>don't need to make it explicitly an act of corruption
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07:43<supermop>and instead of getting caught, it could be 'grassroots backlash'
07:46<Pinkbeast>If money wasn't irrelevant there could be a non-bribe facility that's less cost-effective but can't lock you out.
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07:47<Pinkbeast>... I also don't think trains should be having SPAD events and crashing all the time, one or two in an entire game would be enough, but less serious SPAD events could be a source of disruption
07:48<Xaroth|Work>and godzilla should pay regular visits
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08:13<Samu>im listening to modern motion music set
08:13<Samu>it's pretty cool
08:14<Samu>there's one or two tracks that are too loud in relation to others
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08:22<Xaroth|Work>sup aro
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08:25<Flygon>Pinkbeast: Really depends
08:25<Flygon>If it's pre-1920, and you're using a steam loco set
08:25<Flygon>SPAD is far easier to have happen
08:25<Flygon>Given the era
08:28<Pinkbeast>Flygon: Oh, indeed. What I'm really saying is in the ideal situation, SPAD events would be significant enough to have an incentive to reduce, but not a constant source of terrible irritation (just how one might like breakdowns to work), such that whether or not to buy locomotives with AWS (or redesign layouts) would be a real choice
08:28<Flygon>Right, gotcha
08:28<Flygon>Also, having a train stop completely due to breakdown's a bit annoying
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08:28<Pinkbeast>If shunts at low relative speeds were "return to depot" not "train and all contents instantly destroyed" it would help matters
08:29<Flygon>Just because, say, a MTMMTM EMU has one M carriage break down
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08:29<Flygon>Doesn't mean the rest of the Ms can't tow it...
08:29<Flygon>Ditto multiloco sets
08:29<Pinkbeast>Flygon: That's one reason this SPAD thing is a bit far-fetched, it'd be nice to fix breakdowns _first_ and make reliability meaningful
08:29*Flygon nodod
08:29<Pinkbeast>But the canteen closes in 15 minutes so I'm off
08:30<Samu>how can i give feedback about a music set?
08:30<Flygon>Have fun!
08:30<Samu>modern motion
08:30<Samu>the song Modern Problems is too loud/pitchy
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>happy "day of the work" (where nobody works) everybody.
08:32<Eddi|zuHause><Samu> there's one or two tracks that are too loud in relation to others <-- report it at the forum thread
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08:33<Samu>oh, the forum, orudge got my account locked
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>that is certainly not my fault
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08:35<Samu>can't double click on a song name to start playing it?
08:35<Samu>from the list
08:35<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't used the jukebox in ages
08:35<Eddi|zuHause>double click might have been add/remove
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>like in the newgrf setup
08:36<Samu>It's still named Jazz jukebox, but what im listening is not jazz
08:36<Samu>just name it Jukebox
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>make a feature request
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08:38<Samu>okay, im listening to the whole set first
08:38<Samu>need to point out those few songs I believe aren't volume tuned with the others
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: keep in mind that the jukebox is older than most music players you have ever used
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08:55<Rubidium>also keep in mind that it's named after the original music that was to be played in there, not some recently created set of music
08:56<Samu>it's fine then
08:57<Samu>I'm not sure why but the song Hot Pink is tiresome to hear, do you guys tried to listen the whole set?
08:58<Samu>the song is fine, but a bit repetitive
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09:13<Samu>are you guys able to adjust midi volume for an entire song? Like, edit it, increase overall volume and save it again?
09:13<Samu>increase or decrease, depending on needs
09:14<Samu>City of Energy is an example of one that needs the volume up a bit
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>that is certainly an easy task, but you should talk to the person that uploaded it
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't used a midi editor in ages
09:15<@planetmaker>samu, you *asked* for your account being locked
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09:16<Samu>I did
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>also, i have never listened to the alternate music sets
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>and the original music maybe twice in the past 15 years
09:17<Samu>I'm too scared to return and become too negative on the forums again
09:18<Samu>don't know if it's ok to return
09:19<supermop>i liked the tto main menu song
09:19<supermop>a lot
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>i did, too. but the same music over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and ...
09:29<Samu>oh :(
09:29<Samu>no text
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09:35<Samu>10 more songs to listen
09:35<Samu>i've been listening them for a week, i just don't know their names
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10:06<Samu>hopefully I could fix the volume issue of the midis, then give them to one who knows how to pack them back into the set
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10:19<frosch123>using an unfamilar vcs can give you so much wtf
10:20<frosch123>(bazaar in this case)
10:21<LordAro>you poor person
10:22<Xaroth|Work>no, that's just bazaar
10:23<Samu>omg, the program really fixes volume even by channel choice, instrument choice
10:24<Samu>i can pretty much remaster these midis
10:26<Samu>funny thing, some songs aren't named how they're internally
10:27<Samu>Green Hill is not Green Hill
10:27<Samu>it's Green Hill Zone
10:27<Samu>Techno1 is Drum1, I guess this is a generic untitled1 name
10:28<Samu>they just let it be named Techno1
10:28<Samu>not a true named song
10:28<V453000>Samu: do you actually play openttd? because the amount of spam you manage to create is incredible :D
10:29<Samu>i was trying to fix midis now
10:29<V453000>im trying to fix industries now T_T
10:29<frosch123>i am waiting for widelands to compile
10:31<V453000>wtf is that
10:31<V453000>does it have slugs?
10:31<frosch123>not sure
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10:31<Samu>compare this one!601&authkey=!ACt-lL6Cg6GFQwM&ithint=file%2c.mid
10:31<Samu>to the one that's on Motion Modern
10:32<Samu>that one is processed with normalized volume (increased in this case)
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10:48<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26546 /trunk/src (11 files) (2014-05-01 14:48:44 UTC)
10:48<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Make order wait_time, travel_time and max_speed private
10:49<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26547 /trunk/src (9 files in 2 dirs) (2014-05-01 14:49:16 UTC)
10:49<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Collect order travel and wait times independent of timetables
10:49<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26548 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2014-05-01 14:49:44 UTC)
10:49<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: move updating of load_unload_ticks out of LoadUnloadVehicle
10:50<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26549 /trunk/src (8 files in 2 dirs) (2014-05-01 14:50:52 UTC)
10:51<@DorpsGek>-Change: better estimation for link capacities during full load
10:53<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26550 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2014-05-01 14:53:06 UTC)
10:53<@DorpsGek>-Change: Show measured order times in timetable GUI
10:55<Samu>about the MIDI Normalizer, the author says: "I hope you enjoy the software. And if you do, just let me know by e-mail, it will keep my "appetite" for developing this software alive."
10:56<Samu>shall I email him?
10:56<Samu>and invite him to OpenTTD, which uses MIDIs
10:56<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26551 trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp (2014-05-01 14:56:33 UTC)
10:56<@DorpsGek>-Fix: document revision number for latest savegame version change
10:58<Samu>Alain Besseleer
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11:44<Samu>anyone familiar with licenses or copyright? if I alter one of the midis instrument in a channel to another, or even mute it because it's too annoying, and I breaching anything? would you be able to re-pack the altered midis back and apply the same license?
11:44<Samu>am I breaching*
11:44<sylvieL>Samu: What license is it under?
11:45<Samu>creative commons
11:45<Pinkbeast>Which Creative Commons license?
11:45<sylvieL>There are about 8 of those
11:45<sylvieL>More precise, please?
11:45<Samu>It is the modern motion music pack, dont really know this legal stuff
11:45<sylvieL>Doesn't it display a full name?
11:46<Pinkbeast>Samu: Well, it will say "CC-by-something" somewhere. What's "Something"?
11:46<sylvieL>Creative Commons-Attribution-blah-blah
11:46<Samu>Legal Code
11:46<sylvieL>Not it :x
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11:46<SylvieLorxu>Then you can't release edited versions
11:46<SylvieLorxu>No matter how small the edits
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11:47<SylvieLorxu>The NoDerivs is the part that literally says "you can't release edited versions of this"
11:48<SylvieLorxu>In fact, the only thing that license allows is freely share the original, it's the most restrictive Creative Commons license there is :P
11:48<Samu>well, in that case, my work is complete! - no work to be done
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11:48<SylvieLorxu>And this is why I feel NoDerivs (ND) is a stupid thing to use, nobody will be legally able to help you :P
11:49<Pinkbeast>Samu: That said, you _might_ be able to release a patch in a carefully selected format.
11:49<SylvieLorxu>(NonCommercial is also pretty stupid, because Commercial isn't properly defined. If you use it in a game and receive money, even by donations, is that commercial usage?)
11:50<Pinkbeast>Ultimately that's up to the courts
11:50<@Alberth>SylvieLorxu: accepting help implies acknowledging you're not the best
11:50<SylvieLorxu>It's a legal uncertainty, which is why I really recommend people to only use Free Culture-licensed works. For Creative Commons, that CC0, CC-BY, CC-BY-SA, no others
11:50<Samu>I dont want to get myself in trouble, better not get involved
11:51<SylvieLorxu>Alberth: Which is a pretty sad attitude :(
11:51<@Alberth>Samu: you can talk to the author
11:51<Pinkbeast>legal uncertainty> well, pretty well any word in any license _could_ be subject to the interpretation of the court.
11:51<SylvieLorxu>Nobody can do anything perfect, because nobody knows everything, and it's insane to assume you do
11:51<@Alberth>SylvieLorxu: i fully agree :)
11:51<Pinkbeast>The CC license text does actually attempt to define commercial activity.
11:52<SylvieLorxu>Pinkbeast: It attempts to, but leaves a lot unclear. Also, there are licenses that contain zero uncertainty, such as CC0 or WTFPL :P
11:53<@Alberth>SylvieLorxu: it's not assuming, it's intentionally ignoring the possibility in many cases, I think
11:53<Pinkbeast>CC0 is uncertain in jurisdictions that don't have a public domain.
11:53<SylvieLorxu>Pinkbeast: No, CC0 EXPLICITLY puts things into the public domain by granting you all rights possible, even if the country does not have a public domain
11:54<@Alberth>or even avoiding getting confronted with it
11:54<SylvieLorxu>It removes the uncertainty of "public domain"
11:54<SylvieLorxu>Alberth: Fair enough
11:54<Samu>i did end up fixing one midi, and was about to work on the 2nd one, which is harder, was still learning how to use the editor
11:55<Pinkbeast>Ah, yes, fair enough. I think the angle of attack on CC0 would be the Public License Fallback, section 3.
11:56<SylvieLorxu>Let me re-read that
11:56<Pinkbeast>Giving multiple people a non-exclusive but unconditional right to exercise the Affirmer's copyright...
11:58<Pinkbeast>The angle on WTFPL would be that it is "
11:58<Pinkbeast>Whoops, mispaste
11:59<Pinkbeast>"TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR COPYING, DISTRIBUTION AND MODIFICATION", ie does not pertain to attribution, ie I can come back later in places with explicit laws about attribution and sue.
11:59<SylvieLorxu>Hmm, okay, I get your point that there is always some uncertainty
11:59<Pinkbeast>CC0 is much better than I remembered, though.
12:00<SylvieLorxu>Well, interesting discussion, at least, not sure what else to say
12:00<Pinkbeast>I think the real thing is there's always some uncertainty because there's nothing to _stop_ the courts deciding what they like. You can do your best with language, but it's not like programming where you can say you got it right and the compiler was wrong.
12:00<SylvieLorxu>True, true
12:01<SylvieLorxu>Thanks for the insight
12:01<Pinkbeast>... and yes, I agree many of the CC licenses are quite annoying, especially NoDerivs :-)
12:02<SylvieLorxu>NoDerivs is really the worst one in my view. I see it used a lot in music, saddens me because I do sometimes hear remixes better than the original, and yeah...
12:02<SylvieLorxu>Those can't legally exist then :(
12:03<Pinkbeast>Aha. I mentioned patches because, having spoken to m'learned friends, it seems unlikely that a patch that includes no material from the original directly would be derivative.
12:04<Pinkbeast>... this is how "no modified versions" stuff like Pine used to get into Debian, by applying a patch locally and compiling it on the user's machine.
12:05<Samu>I am opening the original, apply some volume changes and save. Some volume changes can be set to 0, essentially I'm muting an instrument totally from the midi
12:05<Pinkbeast>So potentially, convert MIDI to text file, generate patch (in non-context format), distribute patch. Up to the users what they do.
12:05<Samu>you'd need to ship both?
12:05<SylvieLorxu>Fair enough. There are OSI and FSF-approved licenses which only allow patches, and NoDerivs is probably the same
12:05<SylvieLorxu>Samu: Yeah, the original and your change, but NOT a changed original
12:05<SylvieLorxu>You can provide an utility to patch the originals
12:06<SylvieLorxu>But you may not distribute them in a patched way
12:06<SylvieLorxu>And this is all unnecessarily complicated :(
12:06<Pinkbeast>Samu: No, you'd provide them separately with instructions on how to (perhaps a script to automatically) combine them. Tedious, I know.
12:06<Samu>well, no way then
12:06<Pinkbeast>SylvieLorxu: I remember the extensive discussion in Debian about what patch-only stuff was going to be allowed to meet the DFSG, back when the DFSG was being written. :-/
12:06<Samu>i just started using the program
12:07<SylvieLorxu>You're probably better of asking the original artist to use a more sane license
12:07<Samu>it seems to run batches
12:08<Pinkbeast>You might then be able to provide an input file to the program separately.
12:08<SylvieLorxu>Better solution: write your own songs and release them under a cool license like CC0/CC-BY/CC-BY-SA :D
12:08<Samu>also I am basing this volume thing on the default midi device windows provides
12:09<Samu>could end up bad on some other OS
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13:10<Eddi|zuHause>anyone remind me which partition i usually put my root backup on?
13:11<Phreeze>-> /dev/null ?
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is i got totally mixed up since /dev/mapper/sdXY does not match sdXY
13:12<Phreeze>what the hell is mapper
13:12<Pinkbeast>It's usually where lvm puts logical volumes
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>thing that maps logical or encrypted drives
13:14<Pinkbeast>See also /dev/mdN is made of /dev/sdaM and /dev/sdbM where N !=M
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>but that "/dev/mapper/sdXY" was not changed when i added drives, while the "sdXY" did
13:14<frosch123>just check /proc/partitions
13:14<Pinkbeast>Or blkid, or... but it's annoying when it happens
13:15<frosch123>if that gives you too many candidates... maybe you should try with a new machine :p
13:15<Eddi|zuHause> 8 4 1 sda4 <-- "1 block" doesn't sound right
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: well it currently goes to "sdh"
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>so... now i got 3 partitions with roughly the same size that are candidates...
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>which is which now?`:p
13:22<Pinkbeast>Mount 'em and look? </captain-obvious>
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>"they all look alike"
13:24<frosch123>get a new machine with twice the disk size as all you existing disks, then copy them over:
13:24<frosch123>everyone does that
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13:25<frosch123>the number of nested backup folders will be the c14 method of future archaeologists
13:26<frosch123>way more accurate than dates stored in the filesystem themself
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26552 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2014-05-01 17:45:32 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>czech - 14 changes by djst
13:45<@DorpsGek>finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
13:45<@DorpsGek>italian - 5 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<@DorpsGek>brazilian_portuguese - 49 changes by Tucalipe
13:45<@DorpsGek>russian - 32 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:47<Phreeze>watching Mad Max
13:47<Phreeze>to prepare for wasteland grf xD
13:49<Samu>i downloaded all grfs
13:50<Samu>its taking 4,72 GB
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13:50<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: yes, my filesystem does look like that :p
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: that's only going to get worse
13:51<DanMacK>hey all
13:51<Samu>wait, im wrong
13:51<Samu>2 screenshots were 3 GBs
13:52<Samu>so it's 1,4 GB of downloaded content
13:53<Phreeze>all grfs....i didnt, i did not want some, like grfs that only add 1 feature or 1 plane or so..useless for me
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>i have 130MB in content_download and 250MB in data
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>and 800MB in grf development stuff
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>and 1.1GB in savegames
13:54<Phreeze>1.1GB savegames O_o i recently deleted all my old savegames
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>well i have 6.6GB in openttd checkouts
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>my miniin checkout is 250MB and my trunk checkout is 800MB
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14:00<frosch123>yeah, what would be the point of miniin savegames without minin checkout
14:00<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: do you keep patching it, so it compiles?
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>not really
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>i tried compiling some older things, but i don't think i tried with miniin
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14:05<Samu>why's that aircraft don't depart when they're full loaded of mail?
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>oh, seems i did try to compile and it worked :)
14:05<Samu>trains depart
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: special rule that "full load" always applies to passengers
14:06<Samu>oh, SH '125' goes out nearly empty, only the mail bags
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>yes. "someone" thought that it should only work this way for aircraft
14:08<Samu>if i have a mixed train passengers and some other cargo, will it depart when passengers are loaded?
14:08<Samu>passengers and valuables for example
14:08<Samu>i wanted to focus on valuables
14:09<Samu>let me try, brb
14:09<andythenorth>I love the special rules
14:09<@Alberth>hi hi
14:09<andythenorth>lo Alberth
14:10<andythenorth>so when can we do consists?
14:10<andythenorth>then we can declare them a BAD FEATURE
14:10*peter1139 declares andythenorth a BAD FEATURE
14:10<@Alberth>we didn't implement andy yet :p
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>peter1139: i'm pretty sure i did that already :p
14:11<Samu>train is departing, full loaded passengers, nearly empty valuables, so confusing
14:11<@Alberth>"any cargo" really means any cargo :)
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: only airplanes are special
14:11<Samu>aha, only airplanes
14:11<Samu>ok, thanks
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i don't see any changes in MiniIN that would indicate a compile fix
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14:12*andythenorth is mis-implemented
14:12<@Alberth>Samu: even then, aircraft focus on passengers, so it would work the same as your train in this case
14:12<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: maybe you are using a old os
14:13<frosch123>but things start to stop compiling when you get never compilers and libraries
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: loads of warnings
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i think it's easier with C instead of C++
14:14<Samu>refiting ratio of aircraft to mail is 1:1, shouldn't it be 1:2?
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: my OS is about 2 years old, i think
14:14<andythenorth>two suggestions, declare them BAD if you must. (1) make a new group from a vehicle window, or from the ‘vehicles sharing this order’ window. (2) make a new group from ‘vehicles using this station’
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14:15<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: and i definitely changed architectures inbetween ;p
14:15<frosch123>iirc some libpng was some issue somewhen
14:16<andythenorth>groups are super useful, but a faff to add vehicles to
14:16<Samu>is there a quick way to see the sized number of my trains without sending them to depots?
14:17<frosch123>what number?
14:17<andythenorth>no, but it would be useful
14:17<andythenorth>he means length
14:17<andythenorth>it’s an odd omission
14:17<Samu>yes, length
14:17<andythenorth>I sometimes have to send trains to depot to understand their length
14:17<Natio>Do you mean how many squares they take up?
14:18<Samu>i have a train sized 10 right now, but i had to send to depot to make sure
14:18<Natio>Well, i usually count with 2 carts per square
14:19<Natio>So if you have 1 locomotive + 9 carts = 5 squares :)
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>i have libpng 1.2.49 and 1.4.11, not sure which one is used
14:20<@Alberth>Natio: that only works with default vehicles and some newgrfs. Many newgrfs however use different length wagons and engines
14:20<Natio>Ooh i had no clue. I havent got to toy around with the newgrf sets yet :)
14:20<andythenorth>OS X Mavericks build absolutely chugs in windowed mode
14:20<andythenorth>full screen is fine
14:20<andythenorth>stupid Mavericks something
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: 32bpp?
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: animated?
14:22<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: the blitter? Or the use of newgrfs?
14:22<andythenorth>how do I check?
14:22<Samu>how do I check if I'm running 32 bpp
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>-d driver=3
14:24<Samu>I like to flip windows with start+tab, but with openttd in full screen it just doesn't work
14:24<Samu>it works fine in window mode
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>dbg: [driver] Successfully loaded blitter '32bpp-anim'
14:27<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: make run -d driver=3 -j13 ?
14:27<Samu>it loaded some 8bpp blitter
14:27<Samu>for me
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>i think you need special arguments for "make run"
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>something along the lines of "OPENTTD_ARGS=<blah>", but that name is probably wrong
14:28<andythenorth>I’ve omitted run
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you need to pass this to ./openttd, not to make
14:29<andythenorth>dbg: [driver] Successfully loaded blitter '8bpp-optimized'
14:29<andythenorth>dbg: [driver] Successfully probed blitter '32bpp-anim' is also present
14:29<Samu>how many video drivers should the -h list?
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>oh, "OPENTTD_ARGS" would even have been correct :p
14:30<Samu>List of video drivers:
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: depends on your OS, for me it's "sdl", "dedicated" and "null"
14:30<Samu> win32: Win32 GDI Video Driver , dedicated: Dedicated Video Driver
14:30<Samu>and null
14:31<Samu>what is dedicated?
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>it's for servers
14:31<andythenorth>hmm, how to force 32bpp blitter?
14:31<frosch123>andythenorth: use nightly
14:31<andythenorth>can’t test the cdist patch with that :)
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: -b 32bpp-optimized
14:31<frosch123>nightly force 32bpp on all platforms by default, unless you find the secret config-only setting to enable 8bpp
14:32<frosch123>andythenorth: wasn't that one committed?
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>or: -b 32bpp-anim
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: you likely don't want to change the video driver anyway
14:33<Samu> -b drv=32bpp-sse4-anim
14:33<Samu>im gonna break my system
14:33<Samu>didn't work
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: no "drv="
14:34<andythenorth>is it plausible that 32bpp-anim is more performant that 32bpp-optimized?
14:34<andythenorth>specifically on map scroll
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there may be all sorts of weird effects. it's apple :p
14:35<andythenorth>hard to measure, but definitely smoother scroll on the 32bpp-anim blitter
14:35<Samu>what about the debug window?
14:35<andythenorth>the 8bpp one is rubbish
14:35<Samu>-b 32bpp-sse4-anim -d
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: -d opens the debug window
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>(unless you "convert" to a console application)
14:37<Samu>yes, i wanted to make sure it's running with the blitter
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14:38<Samu>it opens a black window
14:38<Samu>no text on it
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: well you left out the parameter for -d
14:39<Samu>-b 32bpp-sse4-anim -d driver=3
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14:39<Eddi|zuHause>is it weird that i like this parody even if i don't know the original?
14:41<Samu>it works!
14:41<Samu>my cpu supports sse4 then?
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14:42<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: was it listed in -h?
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>then yes
14:43<Samu>much awesome
14:43<Samu>good job AMD, you support Intel instructions
14:44<TinoDidriksen>They cross-license almost everything.
14:44<TinoDidriksen>Intel's 64bit arch is called AMD64.
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>because IA64 is dead
14:47<Samu>is it possible to run the game in fullscreen (borderless windowed mode)?
14:47<Xaroth|Work>those are two different terms
14:48<frosch123>depends on your os as well
14:48<Xaroth|Work>fullscreen != borderless window
14:48<frosch123>check game options and see what it does
14:48<Samu>it does fullscreen, it seems to be the real fullscreen, not a borderless window occupying the whole screen :(
14:49<Samu>then again, it would only be able to use the desktop res....
14:49<Samu>guess it's a pointless request after all
14:50<Samu>the game is so tiny in 1920x1080
14:51<Samu>"blitter upscaling" - does such term exist?
14:51<Xaroth|Work>you can zoom...
14:52<Samu>i mean upscale the entire application
14:52<frosch123>you can configure bigger fonts
14:52<Samu>so that toolbars, icons and such are also scale
14:52<frosch123>and you can use bigger gui sprites
14:52<Samu>even text
14:53<Samu>no, not exactly that
14:53<Samu>I can upscale fine from 1280x720 to 1920x1080, the video driver is doing it fine, but that requires fullscreen
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14:54<Samu>in window mode, there's no upscale, it is using the desktop resolution which is already 1920x1080
14:55<Samu>I wanted some way to upscale the entire OpenTTD window in window mode
14:55<Xaroth|Work>as frosch123 said
14:55<Xaroth|Work>zoom + font size adjustment + bigger gui sprites
14:56<Samu>i'm sure it's not that what I'm looking for
14:56<frosch123>but it's what exists :p
14:58<andythenorth>I need much bigger ships :P
14:58<andythenorth>which idiot made this stupid ship set so small?
14:58<Xaroth|Work>you did
14:58<frosch123>try redfish, saves you work?
15:03<Samu>something like this:
15:03<Samu>that's what is zooming OpenTTD for me
15:03<Samu>it's zooming 1280x720 to fit the whole 1920x1080, I see everything bigger
15:04<Samu>and no black borders
15:04<Samu>but that's only for full screen :(
15:04<Samu>the lower the resolution I set in-game, the bigger I see
15:06<Samu>if I don't enable image scaling, I get black borders in low resolutions
15:07<Xaroth|Work>we know what you want
15:07<Samu>and the tiny game in the middle
15:07<Xaroth|Work>it's not in openttd
15:07<Xaroth|Work>we gave you the closest possible method
15:07<Xaroth|Work>so you can keep explaining, but the answer won't magically change :|
15:07<Samu>oki, sorry
15:07<Xaroth|Work>no need to be sorry
15:08<Xaroth|Work>just trying to save you wasted energy :)
15:08<frosch123>no need to save wasted energy
15:08<frosch123>we have enough of that
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15:44<andythenorth>“GameScripts wanted, cash paid"
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15:45<@Alberth>what should it do?
15:45<andythenorth>it should amuse me
15:46<@Alberth>hmm, slightly ambiguous requirement :p
15:49<andythenorth>he he
15:49<Rubidium>Alberth: not as bad as the requirements from ;)
15:55<andythenorth>Alberth: what would *you* want in a GS? o_O
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15:56<@Alberth>I like nocargoal, except it should do more calculations for me, I miss a prediction for the end result, an I am too lazy to compute it myself
15:57<@Alberth>and perhaps it should not stop after 3 goals, but just give me new ones instead
15:58<@Alberth>but perhaps they should be more specific
15:59<@Alberth>or it will run out of cargos to assign pretty quickly :p
15:59<@Alberth>you can only increase demands after that
16:00<@Alberth>or require a rate (X tonnes / month coal)
16:03<andythenorth>I am +1 to NCG, but with more cargos, or a difficulty ladder or such
16:07<Superuser>oh you are thinking of a different scoring system?
16:07<Superuser>most excellent
16:07<Superuser>I see that my complaining has paid off ^^
16:07<frosch123>no, you are behind by 3 years
16:07<andythenorth>and no
16:08<andythenorth>what is scoring?
16:08<andythenorth>I don’t understand
16:09<Superuser>is it really such an ignored aspect of the game...?
16:10<Superuser>okay, my bad, perfroamcne rating
16:10<Superuser>that's the official name
16:10<Superuser>it determines your position in the league table
16:10<Superuser>from which the winner of the game is drawn
16:11<Superuser>however, the metrics used for this have serious problems and need a good rethinking, because they do not scale well to the end-game and constrict player choice
16:11<andythenorth>they’ve been around since 1994, perhaps they’re proven?
16:12<andythenorth>20 years worth of testing
16:12<andythenorth>it’s quite audacious to declare them wrong
16:14<Superuser>:: slams desk :: Call me audacious but :: speedy lines :: the mechanics are faulty!
16:14<Superuser>I may write an extended post about them on the forum, we need to come up with new mechanics
16:15<frosch123>i told you, you are behind by 3 years
16:15<frosch123>if you refust to look up what game scripts are, we can only flame you
16:15<Superuser>you can't just ship a broken game
16:15<Superuser>you should strive to make the default game as good as possible, not rely on people to mod it...
16:15<andythenorth>empirically we can
16:15<andythenorth>and we do
16:15<@Alberth>commercial companies have been doing that forever
16:15<Superuser>makes me think back to unpatched Morrowind
16:16<Superuser>wouldn't you agree that Morrowind without patches was a terrible experience?
16:16<frosch123>let's say, ottd is not for narrowminded people
16:16<@Alberth>Superuser: no idea, I never played that
16:16<andythenorth>also there is no way we could change the scoring mechanism
16:16<andythenorth>someone with an elaborate savegame would go nuts on the forum
16:16<andythenorth>or even worse, here :P
16:17<andythenorth>Nothing May Change
16:17<@Alberth>nor the can the default game be changed, I think
16:17<Superuser>support both
16:17<Superuser>as game scripts
16:17<Superuser>I bet you I can come up with a better system, in fact I promise you that
16:17<Superuser>you just wait and see :D
16:18<@planetmaker>cool. Better system means a person submitting a patch queue and going through review
16:18<Superuser>you will be very impressed and I'll make sure I link you to Superuser's superior competitive OTTD
16:18<Superuser>I may even write a script for it
16:18<andythenorth>no you have to use the version in game, not some mod based on an open architecture
16:18<andythenorth>you can’t rely on people to mod it
16:18<Superuser>of course I won't
16:19<Superuser>surely the current win conditions are implemented as a script right?
16:19<Superuser>that's bad design :(
16:19<andythenorth>Nothing May Change
16:19<andythenorth>Nothing May Change
16:19<Superuser>I take it that's your development philosophy...?
16:20<@Alberth>Superuser: in 1994 there were no scripts
16:20<Superuser>I don't know, I think you'll have to cut support for the old TTD at some point if you wish to move the game forward
16:21<Superuser>maintaining compatibility for that whole stack is surely quite taxing
16:21<Superuser>hopefully this will be the first step ^^
16:21<andythenorth>we don’t wish to move the game forward
16:21<Superuser>now I need to take a month or so to think about this
16:21<andythenorth>Nothing May Change
16:21<Superuser>you say that until you see my proposition... that is all :)
16:21<andythenorth>do you have a project manager?
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16:24<andythenorth>it’s very amusing that GS has nothing to do with high score table or the win conditions
16:25<frosch123>noone considered it important enough
16:25<frosch123>why would you bother with highscores if you can work in gameplay?
16:25<andythenorth>well yes
16:26<Superuser>wait a sex
16:26<Superuser>so different win conditions would be... impossible?
16:26<Superuser>in its current state, at least
16:27<frosch123>@kban Superuser 86400 24 hours for you to look up game scripts
16:27-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!~superuser@2a02:e00:fffe:fbee::b5a2:2197] by DorpsGek
16:27-!-Superuser was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [24 hours for you to look up game scripts]
16:28<andythenorth>oh he was such fun too
16:28<andythenorth>I’ll have to go to bed now :(
16:30<andythenorth>frosch123: your GS might beat me again :P
16:30<@Alberth>gn andy, and others too
16:31<andythenorth>bye Alberth
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16:32<andythenorth>has nobody made the 2048 GS yet?
16:32<andythenorth>should be easy, no?
16:32<frosch123>everyone wanting that is busy playing 2048
16:32<frosch123>it's an unsolvable problem
16:34<Phreeze>it's a boring game
16:34<Phreeze>it's like those picture shifting games from the 80s...
16:34<frosch123>isn't the original shifting game from 1925 or something?
16:37<andythenorth>patience is a boring game, but it’s still played a lot
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16:52<Eddi|zuHause><Samu> is it possible to run the game in fullscreen (borderless windowed mode)? <- on useful OSes you could just right-click the window and say "remove frame"
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16:58<Eddi|zuHause><Phreeze> it's like those picture shifting games from the 80s... <-- i had an interesting shifting game once, it had blocks of 1x1, 1x2, 2x1 and 2x2, and you had to get the 2x2 block from one corner to the opposite one
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>the empty space was 2x1
16:59<frosch123>4 times 1x1, 4 times 1x2, 1 time 2x1, 1 time 2x2 iirc
17:01<frosch123>anyway there is a whole family of thsoe
17:02<frosch123>"klotski" is even part of standard kde4
17:02<frosch123>with various dozen of those
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17:02<frosch123>oh, it's part of gnome games
17:02<frosch123>why does it start with k then?
17:03<peter1139>Because that's the name of the game?
17:08<Samu>benfica > juventus, 2-1 aggregate
17:13<@planetmaker>hm... :)
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17:21<DanMacK>Hey all
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17:35<Eddi|zuHause>the funniest thing about 2048 is how it says "you won" and then the actual game starts :)
17:35<frosch123>parallels to ottd?
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>i have never seen that part of openttd
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18:18<peter1139>I guess Eddi|zuHause manages, with German precision, to reach 2048 every single time with no effort.
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18:18<Eddi|zuHause>almost every time, at least
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18:54<Wolf01>'night all
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19:10<Aristide>Navitia is open source now x)
19:11<Aristide>(Navitia is used on TCL website for calculate path)
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19:36<DanMacK>Hey supermop
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21:46<supermop>hi danmack
21:48<supermop>oops he's gone
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22:29<MaximumTimbo>When does the next game begin? I have the nightly build, but have the most recent....
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---Logclosed Fri May 02 00:00:53 2014