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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-05-02

---Logopened Fri May 02 00:00:53 2014
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02:23<Rubidium>MaximumTimbo: which next game? OpenTTD itself does not host game servers, so you got to be a bit more specific
02:24<@planetmaker>moin moin
02:26<Rubidium>peter1139: though 2048 is only 1/64th of the theoretical largest possible value to reach
02:27<Rubidium>I'm not sure how the score is calculated, but for that you should be able to determine the maximum value too
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02:32<MaximumTimbo>I was talking about the coop server...
02:32<@planetmaker>join #openttdcoop
02:32<MaximumTimbo>I thought I was.. I'm sorry
02:34<V453000>just type /join #openttdcoop :)
02:34<@planetmaker>hard to tell when next begins... the map looks rather fresh
02:34<supermop>i've never played on the coop server
02:37<V453000>should perhaps try (:
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02:53<dihedral>good morning
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03:04<peter1139>supermop, it's frustrating; you have to put up with their ugly design decisions ;p
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03:17<V453000>which is actually entirely untrue as the only restriction is to make things work
03:17<V453000>which in fact is very free
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03:24<supermop>there should be a regularly held cooperative passenger server
03:25<supermop>with plaers assigned different lines or franchises
03:28<V453000>we do that sometimes too
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04:08<V453000>I hereby declare I am going to havethe most awesome factory yet seen
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05:17<Flygon>__ln___ : The Futurama writers must be having a field day
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06:49<Wolf01>hi hi
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07:26<andythenorth>auto-replace appears to check that all refit orders are valid for the target vehicle :D
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08:28<Samu>i found a not*really*a*bug
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08:30<Samu>that green tile
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08:35<dihedral>SirkoZ? :-)
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08:59<George>How to get the power of the consist on NML?
09:00<George>here I can't find any property for that
09:01<George>(power of consist is the power of all engines that are powered on the current rail
09:02<peter1139>same as with nfo
09:02<George>var E4 ?
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09:04<George>And consist weight is var E8 ?
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09:09<George>and in case SELF instead of PARENT they would store power/weight of the current vehicle?
09:09<peter1139>Actually I have no idea about anything NML related :p
09:12<V453000>parent checks for the first engine in consist
09:12<V453000>self for itself
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09:18<Samu>air_drag_coefficient - nice
09:19<Samu>from that link
09:20<V453000>rather useless
09:21<Samu>learning a few things
09:21<Samu>9.81 m/s is the speed of gravity
09:21<Samu>oops, acceleration
09:22<Samu>a tile going up/down is +50/-50
09:22<Samu>how to relate all this with that air drag coefficient?
09:24<Phreeze>why do you all speak of NFO ?
09:24<Phreeze>it's complicated an shit
09:24<Phreeze>if you have a structured language like nml
09:24<Samu>me? I just stumbled upon a link
09:25<Phreeze>no george and peter and those
09:26<George>I've asked about NML
09:26<George>But there was no answer
09:26<Phreeze>var E4 is not nml ;)
09:26<Samu>there is no air_drag_coefficient for aircraft? omg imba
09:26<Phreeze>aircrafts fly in vacuum
09:26<George>Phreeze: you can access vars in NML
09:26<peter1139>9.81 m/s? You sure about that?
09:27<George>like this var[0xE4, 0, 0xFFFFFFFF]
09:27<Phreeze>that's the speed of sonic
09:27<Phreeze>yes that one
09:27<Samu>it's on the wiki article george linked
09:28<Samu>Fraction of the vehicle weight that is available as tractive effort. Tractive effort (in kN) is calculated as (TE coefficient) * 10 * weight (in tons), with 10 being an approximation of the acceleration of gravity (9.81 m/s). Default value is 0.3.
09:29<__ln___>peter1139: 9.81 m/s = 2.7 ft/microfortnight
09:29<__ln___>umm, or 27. whatever.
09:29<Phreeze>jsut use 0.3 ^^
09:30<Phreeze>unless you build rails out of titan or so
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09:35<__ln___>Samu: btw, over here the acceleration is 9.81 m/s^2, not m/s.
09:38<Samu>how aircraft fly in the sky:
09:39<V453000>you people certainly have nothing to do
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09:40<Samu>realistic acceleration for aircraft ploz
09:40<Xaroth|Work>next you'll be asking for savegames in xml format....
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09:47<SylvieLorxu>Tssk, XML
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10:14<peter1139>__ln___, that was rather my point, too :-)
10:14<peter1139>Xaroth|Work, I hear JSON is all the rage now.
10:14<peter1139>SylvieLorxu, oh cock
10:14<SylvieLorxu>peter1139: You could still recommend YAML
10:15<SylvieLorxu>Or the OpenTTD save file format, now THAT is obscure
10:16<Xaroth|Work>SylvieLorxu: << you; the joke =====================>>
10:16<Xaroth|Work>peter1139: do you have a patch for it perchance?
10:16<SylvieLorxu>Xaroth|Work: That's the first time something does not fly over my head
10:17<SylvieLorxu>And I should maybe have read the whole conversation
10:17<SylvieLorxu>But meh, lazy
10:17<Samu>hmm, question. I have a road vehicle going through some town with random bridges, but the vehicle is deciding to go through the wood bridge and not the faster one.
10:17<Samu>the faster one, not only is faster, but it's also the shortest way
10:18<Samu>is this the work of the path ai?
10:18<Samu>very strange it would do this
10:18<Xaroth|Work>it's rebelling
10:18<Xaroth|Work>quick, kill it with fire before they want to start a union
10:19<Samu>let me provide a save game
10:21<Samu>it's the sav file
10:21<Samu>look at rentfield and the blue trucks
10:21<Samu>especially those going north
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10:37<Samu>got a funny suggestion for airport builds toolbar
10:37<Samu>make it like trains, to separate the different airport types
10:38<Samu>railway, electrified railway, monorail, maglev -> small airports, large airports, hub airports, helicopter pads
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10:40<Samu>the current airport tools are too clumped imo
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11:21<Phreeze>non_refittable_cargo_classes: bitmask(OLSD,SGCN);
11:21<Phreeze>still dont get it how to define that
11:21<Phreeze>this doesn't work as OLSD and SGCN are "new" cargoes, higher than 31
11:21<Phreeze>a list doesnt work either...
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11:27<andythenorth>I predict that before the game finally dies, someone will cave in and add a ‘load x% order’
11:28<andythenorth>possibly by removing ‘full load’ and defaulting to ‘load 100%’ with the option to adjust
11:28*andythenorth wonders when the last game of openttd will be played
11:28<andythenorth>it could be a frighteningly long time
11:28<andythenorth>assuming no civilisational event
11:29<Phreeze>[17:21:25] <Phreeze> non_refittable_cargo_classes: bitmask(OLSD,SGCN);
11:29<Phreeze>[17:21:30] <Phreeze> still dont get it how to define that
11:29<Phreeze>[17:21:47] <Phreeze> this doesn't work as OLSD and SGCN are "new" cargoes, higher than 31
11:29<Phreeze>[17:21:53] <Phreeze> a list doesnt work either...
11:29<Phreeze>whats the solution?
11:29<andythenorth>why are you defining non-refittable cargo classes?
11:29<andythenorth>and why are you giving it cargo labels?
11:29<andythenorth>(1) don’t use that property, it’s a mistake
11:29<andythenorth>and the people who argue it’s not a mistake are mistaken
11:30<andythenorth>(2) don’t give labels to properties expecting classes
11:30<Phreeze>i dont know why there are [17:21:25] <Phreeze> non_refittable_cargo_classes: bitmask(OLSD,SGCN);
11:30<Phreeze>[17:21:30] <Phreeze> still dont get it how to define that
11:30<Phreeze>[17:21:47] <Phreeze> this doesn't work as OLSD and SGCN are "new" cargoes, higher than 31
11:30<Phreeze>[17:21:53] <Phreeze> a list doesnt work either...
11:30<Phreeze>ups wrong copy paste
11:30<Phreeze>cargo_allow_refit cargo_disallow_refit
11:30<Phreeze>should i use those 2 instead ?
11:30<Phreeze>why do the other exist ?
11:31<Phreeze>can use a cargoclass with cargo_allow_refit ?? or do i always have to add a huge list ?
11:32<andythenorth>you should specify refittable classes to suit your vehicle
11:32<Phreeze>anyway... will mod this later, walking the dogs now
11:32<andythenorth>don’t use that to try and support specific cargos, it goes wrong
11:33<andythenorth>never use non-refittable classes, it goes wrong
11:33<andythenorth>then use allow / disallow refit for specific labels you know about + care about
11:39*V453000 wonders whether creating a forum thread for YETI has any use
11:39*V453000 knows the answer
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11:52<andythenorth>you will gather a lot of Valued Opinions
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11:56<Samu>kelling 3100 vs CS 4000, there is a huge performance discrepancy when doing realistic vs original acceleration
11:56<Samu>interesting find
11:56<Samu>i should make a video
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11:57<Samu>putting them side by side for comparison
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12:03<Samu>with default realistic settings, 3% steep, 1x weight, the kelling 3100 is slightly faster than CS 4000, almost a tie
12:04<Samu>in the original, kelling 3100 is much worse
12:04<Phreeze>hm andythenorth , other guys here say that a CC_class is cool to support feature cargoes
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12:05<Phreeze>obviously, you are against :D
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12:05<Phreeze>the refits are BAD features
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12:06<Phreeze>no andy :D
12:06<Phreeze>read the whole chat
12:06<Phreeze>was me talking, then andy, then i WHOOOOM ? :D
12:06<Samu>I like refits
12:07<Samu>some are a bit strange
12:07<andythenorth>this is going oddly
12:07<Samu>lifestock on passanger DMUs :(
12:07<Phreeze>hehe, just kidding
12:07<andythenorth>phreeze the interaction between classes and labels is not easy to get right, many have done it wrong
12:07<Phreeze>yeah...DMUs etc should only carry mail at most
12:07<andythenorth>I explained above what you should do though
12:07<Phreeze>i'll just go like they go in ogfx trains
12:08<Samu>i wanted no refits at all for the original trains
12:08<Phreeze>but WHY is there a "disallow" and an "allow" ?
12:08<Samu>they carry what they carry, no refits
12:08<Phreeze>for me, a disallow is an inverted allow
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12:08<Samu>if it carries passengers, then it's passengers the only cargo
12:08<Phreeze>if a cargo is not allowed, obviously it is disallowed
12:09<andythenorth>classes first, then labels
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12:10<juzza1>Phreeze: it's not that simple becase there are cargos and cargo classes. Read
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12:11<Phreeze>are labels over classes ?
12:12<andythenorth>first set the general classes for your vehicle
12:12<andythenorth>don’t set the disallowed classes
12:12<andythenorth>then allow / disallow specific cargos, which over-rides any class-based refits you disagree with
12:13<juzza1>andythenorth: what's the logic behind not setting disallowed classes?
12:13<Phreeze>thats what i did now andythenorth, perfect
12:13<Phreeze>juzza1 : whats the logic OF setting ?
12:13<@planetmaker>juzza1, it only makes sense for some classes
12:13<Phreeze>it's boolean anyway
12:14<Phreeze>either you can refit to coal, or not
12:14<@planetmaker>like bulk but not hazardous
12:14<Phreeze>there's no maybe. maybe is for girls only
12:14<@planetmaker>juzza1, but generally disallowed classes bring easily more pain than gain
12:15<@planetmaker>cargoes can have several, possibly conflicting classes. Thus you would exclude that cargo unnecessarily
12:15<andythenorth>classes are for supporting the unknown future
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12:15<@planetmaker>thus keep the support level broad ^
12:15<@planetmaker>existing cargoes better are supported by their labels
12:15<andythenorth>it is possible to prove algorithmically that your set will always support all cargos in at least one vehicle
12:15<andythenorth>but eh, why bother doing that, just don’t exclude any classes
12:16<Samu>looks like i can't change the weight of trains after buying them, is it a bug?
12:16<Phreeze>problem is you DO NOT exclude: you have to draw a sprite
12:16<Samu>the option is enabled, but it isn't taking effect on the trains
12:16<Phreeze>or use a lame "covered bulk wagon" sprite...
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12:16<andythenorth>Phreeze: or you have to invent a time machine
12:16<@planetmaker>Phreeze, you *cannot* draw unknown cargoes. And you *always* need a default sprite, if you go via cargo classes
12:17*andythenorth draws unknown cargos all the time
12:17<andythenorth>all you need is a lack of talent
12:17<@planetmaker>you need a default cargo sprite anyway
12:17<@planetmaker>haha, andythenorth :)
12:17<Phreeze>Chuck Norris can draw unknown cargo sprites
12:17<@planetmaker>and if you use GPL you can easily 'steal' the cargo sprites from nuts
12:17<andythenorth>Chuck Norris wouldn’t bother
12:18<Phreeze>default is coal ^^ so if it doesnt look black, its ...err...buggy
12:18<@planetmaker>thus support all *known* cargoes with proper sprites. And do not bother about what you cannot know
12:18*Phreeze 's going to draw covered hopper...
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12:19<Samu>my question: simulated train weight on settings isn't taking effect on the current game, is it supposed to be that way? a bug? I'm doing it wrong?
12:20<Samu>it still says x3 on train information, but it's not simulating it
12:20<juzza1>Ok, I understand why you recommend not setting the disallowed classes. For some reason, I assumed everyone will check before doing any of them :P
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12:20<@planetmaker>juzza1, who reads specs? :D
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12:22<Samu>ah, i get it
12:23<Samu>wagon and engine weigth isn't simulated, only the cargo weigth
12:23<Samu>that's strange
12:23<Samu>not what I expected
12:23<andythenorth>no, it’s the freight weight multiplier
12:23<andythenorth>it multiplies weight of freight
12:24<Samu>what's a freight weight? isn't it the entire train?
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12:26-!-planetmaker is "Ingo von Borstel" on @#openttd #openttdcoop.devzone #debian @+#openttdcoop.nightly @+#openttdcoop.stable @+#openttdcoop +#openDune #oftc #openttdcoop.bots
12:26<Samu>kinda disappointed
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12:29<Samu>this means, on an empty train, going on a straight line with no hills, neither weight multiplier nor steepness make any difference :(
12:34<andythenorth>do they need to?
12:34<andythenorth>is it really a useful goal?
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12:35<Samu>i expected some difference, then i started to watch two openttds side by side with different weights were behaving the same
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13:01<@Alberth>what happened? such few posts at the forum
13:06<Samu>timetable in ticks
13:09<Samu>ticks are a much better measure unit to compare realistic vs original
13:10<@Alberth>always fun when people think OpenTTD is related to reality :p
13:10<@Alberth>hi hi NGC982
13:11<Samu>time for me to create some statistics spreadsheet on excel
13:12<NGC982>Alberth: Is that not partly the goal of playing it?
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13:12<NGC982>I mean, there must be a reason for it not to contain Tron bikes by default.
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13:13<@Alberth>lousy artists probably :p I am still waiting for the black/white version of OpenTTD, just like Simutrans
13:13*NGC982 still wants that Tron theme.
13:13<V453000>Alberth: you will shit bricks when you see YETI :P
13:13<V453000>not very R-thing
13:14<NGC982>What's YETI?
13:14<@Alberth>\o/ V :)
13:15<V453000> for imagez
13:16<NGC982>That looks very interesting.
13:17<@Alberth>NGC982: this style of tiles
13:19<@Alberth>V453000: I laughed my socks off with that guy that was shocked to find your NUTS being unrealistic, even after you gave him the meaning of the word :)
13:19<NGC982>Very nice.
13:19<NGC982>I love the scetches
13:19<@Alberth>they have a pak with that so you can play simutrans in that style :)
13:19<V453000>well yeah :)
13:20<V453000>idiots will stay idiots
13:20<V453000>"omg it isnt realistic"
13:20<V453000>is exactly the kind of Valued Opinions
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13:21<V453000>I am considering to make a Make the Most BAD POST Thread
13:22<V453000>OR I might as well take a shit on the forum with yeti entirely
13:22<@Alberth>good off-topic topic :p
13:22<V453000>not like NUTS found any use on the forums
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13:23<theholyduck>i dont like forums
13:23<@Alberth>farm looks too normal, perhaps have the people live outside, and the animals inside?
13:24<V453000>no but dont you worry, I have some extreme wtf for the farm
13:24<V453000>this is just the inactive state
13:24<V453000>wait for active - producing - state
13:24<V453000>with animals -and stuff-
13:25<V453000>going to be majorly awesome
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13:26<@Alberth>your yeti scheme has a touch of monty python or inspector gadget :)
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13:27<@Alberth>:o you're going to have stuff and things too?
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13:40<Samu>are ticks in timetable rounded to a day-tick?
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13:45<Samu>it's multiples of 74! :(
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26553 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2014-05-02 17:45:31 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>croatian - 5 changes by VoyagerOne
13:45<@DorpsGek>dutch - 50 changes by habell
13:45<@DorpsGek>norwegian_bokmal - 16 changes by cuthbert
13:45<@DorpsGek>russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:45<@DorpsGek>slovak - 18 changes by Milsa
13:47<V453000>Alberth: stuff and things? :D
13:48<JoeBrown>Hello, I am trying to change grass tiles to desert in a tropical map
13:48<JoeBrown>How do I do it?
13:49<Brumi>there's a button for that on the landscaping toolbar
13:50<JoeBrown>I cannot find that toolbar. Google seems to refer to it often, but I only have Land Generation tool bar in landscaping
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13:51<Brumi>yes it's called land generation toolbar
13:51<Brumi>right to the zooming buttons
13:52<Brumi>and within the land generation toolbar the second button from the right is the desert conversion tool
13:52<JoeBrown>ah, ffs, why is it lighthouse icon T_T
13:53<Brumi>maybe you're using some newGRFs?
13:53<JoeBrown>found it thankyou, it seems to be a weird icon
13:53<JoeBrown>Not sure, I think I have everything turned off, but I found the button :)
13:53<Brumi>hmm for me it's not a lighthouse
13:54<Brumi>that's weird
13:55<juzza1>JoeBrown: do you have opengfx biggui activated?
13:55<juzza1>It doesnt seem to have that icon, so it uses the lighthouse one
13:56<JoeBrown>There are no mods active under NewGRF Settings menu, but that name does ring a bell
13:57<juzza1>you might have it in [newgrf-static] section of openttd.cfg
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14:05<andythenorth>suggestions forum lacks things to rant about :P
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14:12<Samu>i had a nice suggestion today, it got lost somewhere in the chat
14:14<Samu>ah, found it
14:14<Samu>got a funny suggestion for airport builds toolbar
14:14<Samu>make it like trains, to separate the different airport types
14:14<Samu>railway, electrified railway, monorail, maglev -> small airports, large airports, hub airports, helicopter pads
14:15<Samu>this was it
14:15<andythenorth>probably won’t get done
14:15<andythenorth>blocks New Airports
14:15*Alberth ponders about towels and needful things as cargoes for towns
14:15<andythenorth>which won’t get done either
14:15<andythenorth>Alberth: towels and babelfish?
14:16<andythenorth>and paranoid androids?
14:18<@Alberth>andy, not sure, the new airports in the form of building on tiles could be feasible too
14:18<@Alberth>needful things are a very different category :p
14:18<andythenorth>they wouldn’t be grouped by those groupings though?
14:19<andythenorth>oic. I was thinking hitchhikers
14:19<@Alberth>towels are hitchhiker indeed
14:20<andythenorth>frosch123: your bloody GS is going to beat me :(
14:21<frosch123>do you have an usb beating stick?
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14:21<frosch123>we could add support for such devices
14:22<@Alberth>wow, towel day :)
14:22<@Alberth>grouping of airports would become somewhat meaningless, probably
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14:23<@Alberth>although for hysteric raisins, we'll keep the currently existing airports too, I guess
14:23<frosch123>or convert them on saveload :)
14:23<JoeBrown>What are the requirements for a small town to turn to a city? Does it work with gloabl population or will it always grow to a city?
14:23<@Alberth>frosch123: yep :)
14:23<frosch123>i kind of doubt anyone would want to use them
14:24<frosch123>well, only considering reasonable opinions ofc..
14:24<@Alberth>of course
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14:27<andythenorth>new airports is such a myth :)
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14:34<andythenorth>maybe I should use the capacity parameter :P
14:36<NGC982>Um, i cannot seem to find any japanese industry station set in the online content.
14:36<NGC982>Is that so?
14:36<NGC982>Or is that not so.
14:36<frosch123>"Japanese Stations 3.0" 27062 downloads, grfid 45530500
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14:39<@Alberth>traffic jam!
14:40<V453000>;;nice andy
14:43<Samu>i should have known beforehand that 1 day is really multiples of 74 ticks in timetable... :(
14:43<Samu>i switched to ticks for better refinement... and then... :(
14:44<frosch123>autofill uses multiples of 74, you an adjust to any number
14:44<NGC982>frosch123: That does not contain any industrial platforms.
14:45<Samu>I was counting on autofill for precise measurement
14:45<Samu>guess I'll convert my results to days now
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15:16<Samu>preliminary graph
15:16<Samu>Realistic vs Original
15:16<NGC982>I just noticed
15:16<Samu>the bar is filled up with the total number of days it took traveling
15:16<NGC982>When running more than one instance of openttd.exe in Windows 8, it divides each of them into a single CPU core.
15:16<NGC982>That is nice.
15:16<Samu>using each acceleration modes
15:17<NGC982>Is that OpenTTD och Windows related?
15:19<Samu>a larger area for a color fraction in the bar means that it took longer time traveling than a shorter bar
15:20<andythenorth>frosch123: beat it :D
15:20<andythenorth>took 86 years and 3 months out of 100
15:22<Samu>my research concludes that realistic with a weigth x3 is the equivalent to original for early game engines, while at the very late game engines, the situation reverses, original becomes faster than realistic even with a x1 weigth
15:23<Samu>this graph example is only for travelling in a straight line with no hills whatsoever
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15:25<frosch123>the biggest difference is in the handling of hills and valleys
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15:38<Samu>a different graph. This one is per train model:
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15:39<Samu>oops, train size is number of wagons, a damn typo
15:41<Samu>transporting oil
15:42<Samu>so, no Millenium example
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15:52<Samu>I'm gonna pick a real-game savegame example to test turns and cliffs
15:56<frosch123>i like the term "real-game" :)
15:57<JoeBrown>Is it possible to change a square in middle of map to water?
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16:01<frosch123>it wouldn't surprise me if it's not
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16:04<frosch123>JoeBrown: actually, you can
16:04<JoeBrown>Its not expanding though ?
16:05<JoeBrown>Ah wait it is, thanks
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16:12<DanMacK>damn I didnt know that lol
16:17<frosch123>we are talking about scenedit, not in-game :)
16:18<andythenorth>ho ho
16:19*andythenorth would quite like water
16:19<andythenorth>useful in MP :P
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16:27-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!~superuser@2a02:e00:fffe:fbee::b5a2:2197] by DorpsGek
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17:20<Samu>3% steepness with x3 weigth results in 24 days travel, but 10% steepness with the same x3 weigth results in 23 days, is something wrong with this results?
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17:21<Samu>is maglev different?
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17:55<Samu>can you create the button that maintains a window open when I press Delete key for Advanced Settings?
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18:30<Eddi|zuHause>why would you want that?
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>settings shouldn't be anything you constantly change
18:33<Samu>testing different steepness right now all the time, it would be usfeul at times
18:34<Eddi|zuHause><Samu> <-- that's your NewGRF set being too old
18:35<Samu>what version should I have? I thought it was the latest
18:35<Samu>OpenGFX 0.5.0 here
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>that is not a newgrf
18:37<Samu>there's no newgrf active at all
18:38<Samu>there is an AI script running, that's just it
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18:40<Eddi|zuHause>then tell the opengfx people, but likely there is no ground type difference for a baseset
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>by "tell XYZ" i mean "post to their forum thread", of course. or their bug tracker
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19:14<Samu>woah, steepness can be bad ass
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20:05<Wolf01>'night all
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21:27<Samu>what is the maximum days timetable can register?
21:27<Samu>autofill on timetable just got 20 days, that's not right
21:28<Samu>it took way way longer
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---Logclosed Sat May 03 00:00:54 2014