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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-05-03

---Logopened Sat May 03 00:00:54 2014
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01:57<@planetmaker>moin
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02:24<Flygon>Menta
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02:51<George>do I understand it right, that var e$ and E8 do not work in OTTD?
02:51<George>(E4)
02:52<@planetmaker>for what? Trains?
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02:55<@planetmaker>o/
02:55<@planetmaker>Alberth, thanks for helping Owen yesterday :)
02:55<@Alberth>moin
02:56<@Alberth>yw :)
02:56<@Alberth>not sure what most buttons mean, but this one I could manage :)
02:56<@planetmaker>:)
02:56<@planetmaker>George, can you remind me what those vars are supposed to do?
02:56<George>planetmaker: yes
02:57<George>power and weight
02:58<George>created task FS#6004
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02:58<George>planetmaker: is there any workaround?
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02:58<@planetmaker>you usually know your power as you set it either via property or callback?
02:58<George>No
02:59<George>two engines provide P=P1+P2
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03:01<George>Making every engine know the power of other ingisnes in the set woud be hard, making the same in case several sets work togather - impossibl
03:01<lskynl>morning
03:02<@planetmaker>in reality one engine doesn't know the other in a consist either. They simply all pull the train
03:02<@planetmaker>that's how it also works in OpenTTD
03:02<@planetmaker>(I still don't understand the problem)
03:03<George>I can't check current power and weight of the consist in the code
03:03<George>Currently I'm working on running costs for xUSSR set
03:03<Flygon>Hmmmm
03:03<Flygon>That'd be interesting
03:04<George>RC depends on the amount of weight per power
03:04<Flygon>Cheaper per-loco operation with Diesel MUs
03:04<Flygon>But more expensive per-loco for each Steam loco coupled
03:04<Flygon>Could force real stratergy for 1800s Steam games
03:04<George>so, in case there is only 1 engine I need only the consist weight (RC higher when consist weights more)
03:05<@planetmaker>George, but the totall weight and the total power is taken into account in train operation
03:05<George>in case 2 or more engines I also need power to divide weight between engines
03:05<George>planetmaker: And what?
03:06<George>That does not affect RC calculation
03:06<@planetmaker>I still don't understand what problem you try to solve. What's RC calculation?
03:06<George>running cost factor callback
03:06<George>I need to calculate value for CB
03:07<George>And it depends on current speed, weight, power
03:07<George>and I CAN'T get current weight and power - tha's the problem I have
03:14<@planetmaker>I'm sure those variables can create extremely nice infinite loops when used in callbacks
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03:15<@planetmaker>yet, reading train properties can make some programming much easier...
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04:48<Phreeze>hi
04:50<@Alberth>moin
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05:03<Samu>hi
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05:44<Madis>good morning
05:49<Phreeze>hi
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06:05<George>frosch123: While OTTD actually support var F4, - and does it support F8? And if no - what var contains weight?
06:10<Samu>finally finished what I was doing yesterday. This http://i.imgur.com/3WeC6YE.png and this http://imgur.com/oaWTokq
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06:16<Samu>resuming my research: original acceleration is equivalent to realistic acceleration with x2 weight and 10% steepness in most cases
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06:16<Samu>achievement complete! that was the goal of this research
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06:22<Samu>oh ya, i didn't show the empty results... realistic acceleration favours it quite too much, no matter the combination of settings
06:23<Samu>other than that, realistic acceleration is quite customizeable
06:24<Pinkbeast>Some of the early diesels seem to lose out quite badly there.
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06:28<Wolf01>hi hi
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06:32<frosch123>George: what kind of graphics depend on weight and power?
06:33<frosch123>just in case you want to use those vars in callback 36 to change other vehicle stats: it will not work. recursive property definitions do not work
06:35<@Alberth>hi hi
06:40<Samu>empty load, going downhill mostly: http://i.imgur.com/jgJfTDH.png and http://i.imgur.com/XvKznL7.png
06:41<Samu>i figured I should show these graphs too for better judgement
06:41<Samu>oops, i missed the x3 10%
06:43<Samu>there: http://i.imgur.com/hAX68XP.png
06:43<valhallasw>Samu: try a 2D heatmap to plot it (locos on one axis, model on second axis, value as color)
06:46<Samu>sorry, i dont know what you mean, i can give you the excel file though
06:47<Samu>bings 2D heatmap
06:48<valhallasw>Samu: sure! pastebin it somewhere, or mail it (valhallasw at gmail) and I'll see what I can do :-)
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06:51<Samu>http://1drv.ms/1iK4V3E
06:51<Samu>think you can download it from there
06:52<Samu>be careful with kirby paul, it was getting some biiiig results, I excluded it then
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06:52<Samu>autofill was timing it incorrectly
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07:08<andythenorth>o/
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07:14*valhallasw fires up IPython Notebook
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07:35<valhallasw>Samu: http://nbviewer.ipython.org/urls/dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/32584450/Samu.ipynb?create=1
07:38<Phreeze>is there a tutorial for "advanced" NML with python etc ?
07:39<Phreeze>i know basic scripting from my university days and some vba..but...yeah...
07:40<LordAro>http://insanecoding.blogspot.ro/2014/04/gcc-49-diagnostics.html
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07:48<@Alberth>Phreeze: just read the tutorial at docs.python.org (for your version of Python)
07:49<@Alberth>other than that, you just have to produce text output exactly as you'd have to enter manually
07:49<@Alberth>formatting of the nml is of course less important
07:51<Phreeze>stupid tortoise is not downloading src...gna
07:51<Phreeze>it's "running" with 17 files and stays at 17...
07:52*Alberth gives Phreeze the command-line version of the vcs
07:53<Phreeze>ATARI 2600 vcs ?
07:53<Phreeze>had one as a child
07:54<Phreeze>or more: my parents played with it, before it was cool :>
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08:22<Samu>valhallasw: hey, thanks
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08:38<andythenorth>Phreeze: I wrote a tutorial for basic python templating
08:38<andythenorth>in forums
08:38<andythenorth>Phreeze: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=58390
08:40<Xaroth|Work>tbh, all it really needs is a good library to do all that :P
08:43<andythenorth>nobody wrote one
08:43<andythenorth>and nobody was interested in even trying to define a spec
08:43<Xaroth|Work>how unpythonic of everybody :P
08:43<andythenorth>feel free
08:44<Xaroth|Work>hah
08:44<Xaroth|Work>i have enough libraries to work on
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08:44<Xaroth|Work>like libzfs-python
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08:45<Samu>lost connection :(
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08:46<andythenorth>Xaroth|Work: what would the library do?
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08:46<Xaroth|Work>andythenorth: libzfs or lib..grf?
08:46<andythenorth>lib.grf
08:46<andythenorth>or lib.nml
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08:47<Xaroth|Work>take python objects, turn it into nml (or even better, directly to grf)
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08:50<andythenorth>I think it would be hard to do well. If it’s too clever it will only serve limited needs. If it’s too sparse, newbies won’t be able to use it.
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08:50*andythenorth speaking as someone who has written one library for pixel generation, and chose deliberately not to do that for nml
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08:59<frosch123>Xaroth|Work: better output to nml, that increases the chance that someone may even remotely consider to debug it
08:59<@Alberth>just split nml in a frontend and a backend :p
09:15<Samu>my internet today :(
09:17<andythenorth>if I was doing a library, I’d provide classes for each vehicle type
09:17<andythenorth>with all the standard properties etc
09:17<andythenorth>and then provide some way for authors to subclass from those for customisations
09:17<andythenorth>but it’s all hot air tbh
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09:20<Samu>when you press ' you write b instead
09:20<Samu>funny
09:27<Samu>ctrl-click to follow vehicle doesn't work on zoom out levels, intended?
09:28<peter1139>Yup, but I don't know/remember why.
09:29<Samu>it is a cool feature
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09:30<Samu>you could make the main menu background game follow a vehicle
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09:31<Samu>would give it a bit of immersion or so
09:37<andythenorth>motion sickness :)
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09:43<Xaroth|Work>vomit comet \o/
09:44<Samu>:(
09:44<frosch123>is that a fork of rct?
09:44<Xaroth|Work>gheh
09:45<Xaroth|Work>that used to be the name of the most insane coaster i could build in rct :P
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09:45<Phreeze>lol
09:50<Eddi|zuHause><George> I can't check current power and weight of the consist in the code <-- let me reiterate the problem to check whether i understand it: you're in the running cost callback, and want to know the weight and power of the whole train? this stuff is usually cached in the front engine, so it should be easy to make a 0x40+ variable
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, 0xF4 contains "cached_power" already
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see a cache for weight
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>ah uint weight = this->gcache.cached_weight;
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>" [TTDPatch] With realistic acceleration: negated total weight of the vehicle, including cargo; without realistic acceleration: full acceleration value" <--- wtf does that mean?
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10:05<Eddi|zuHause>that description makes no sense whatsoever... why would you negate the value?
10:05<Rubidium>something like: real_accel ? -weight : max_speed ?
10:06<Rubidium>hmm, probably not max_speed
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>and does that mean binary negation (~) or numeric negation (-)?
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: no, this->acceleration
10:07<Rubidium>yeah..
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>at least that's how the actual acceleration code uses it
10:08<Rubidium>real_accel ? -weight : power / weight * 4 (clamped to 1..255)
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>again: why the fuck would you negate the value?
10:09<Rubidium>< 0 ? oh... it's just weight : hmm, it's power divided by weight
10:12<Samu>cant build company headquarters... company headquarters in the way. I'm just trying to move it one tile to the right :(
10:13<@planetmaker>easy fix... move it twice
10:13<Samu>ya
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: do you agree that this variable would be stupid and useless, and there should be a new 0x40 variable instead?
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10:23<Samu>i had a random idea for clone vehicle
10:23<Samu>the way I do needs 4 clicks, it could be reduced to 3 clicks
10:24<Xaroth|Work>amount of clicks is less important than how intuitive something is :)
10:24<andythenorth>+1
10:24<Samu>click clone vehicle > click station name (this part should open the list of vehicles that are going to that station immediatelly)
10:25<andythenorth>one weird thing is that I can clone a vehicle that is not depot
10:25<Samu>it -1 click
10:25<andythenorth>but not using the vehicle’s own clone method
10:26<Samu>click cloen vehicle > click station name > click vehicle list going to station > click vehicle to clone , 2nd and 3rd actions could be merged, sometimes I don't have the view on the vehicle I want to clone
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium, George: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/varF8.patch
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, missing "break"s
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>updated
10:30<Samu>if im cloning from a road depot, it would open the list of road vehicles on the station should that station be also for a train or aircraft, I think it's possible to do
10:30<Rubidium>I'm not seeing why one would use such a messy variable
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>alternative: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/var4X_weight.patch
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10:40<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: i don't see anyone ever using that feature
10:41<Samu>i use it very often
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>i mean in the way you want it to work
10:41<Samu>it can work both ways
10:42<Samu>if i click clone vehicle then click a vehicle, it clones that vehicle right away
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>it can, but it's certainly not worth the effort
10:42<andythenorth>it’s bizarre tbh :)
10:42<andythenorth>we should just provide the clone button on vehicle window even if not in depot
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>you can open the list first and then clone from the list already
10:42<andythenorth>dunno why we don’t
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: because we don't know where to build it
10:43<andythenorth>and this is why
10:43*andythenorth will be quiet
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>building stuff in a random depot was possible, but removed because it's stupid
10:44<andythenorth>+1
10:47<Samu>im gonna make a video
10:47<Samu>just for the heck of it
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>what's the point?
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>even if someone was bored enough to implement that, i don't see it getting accepted...
10:47<Samu>will chop it on the 2nd action
10:48<Samu>strange that you don't see how quick it can be
10:50-!-oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
10:52<@Alberth>click on the train instead of the station
10:56<Samu>it's not when I'm seeing the vehicle when it comes useful
10:56<George>frosch123: I want to use weight and power to calculate running cost factor
10:57<Samu>for instance, i have a bunch of trucks going to a station
10:57<Samu>but the station where they were loading is still filling up with cargo
10:58<Samu>I can already do it in 4 clicks
10:58<andythenorth>open station window, open depot, use ctrl-clone
10:58<Samu>my suggestion was merely reducing one click
10:58<andythenorth>I don’t see how you eliminate a click
10:58<Samu>that would need a vehicle in the depot
10:58<andythenorth>just click on the station’s vehicle list
10:58<Samu>I have them all out already
10:58<Samu>yes exactly
10:59<Samu>that's the auto-merged click when clone vehicle action is the current cursor
10:59<Samu>that's my suggestion
10:59<andythenorth>so now you break clone for everybody :(
10:59<andythenorth>it’s a dumb suggestion :)
10:59<andythenorth>in the nicest possible terms :)
11:00<andythenorth>you want to completely change the current behaviour
11:00<Samu>no, it can work with both behaviours
11:00<Samu>it only depends on what I click
11:00<George>Eddi|zuHause: if you expect my testing you need to provide win 32 executable ;)
11:00<andythenorth>also how does openttd know which station vehicle list is supposed to be opened?
11:00<Samu>you click on the station
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>George: we've been there a number of times. i can't provide such executables :p
11:01<Samu>already with the clone vehicle
11:01<George>Someone else can?
11:01<andythenorth>so you want a new button on depots?
11:01<Samu>i think I need to make a video
11:01<andythenorth>‘clone from vehicle list of station \/‘
11:02<Samu>the clone vehicle button is from the depot
11:02<andythenorth>but you need a new button
11:02<Samu>how? it's already there
11:02<andythenorth>the current button clones, it doesn’t open station vehicle list windows
11:02<andythenorth>if you make it do something different, it doesn’t clone
11:02<andythenorth>and then we have months of angry forums
11:03<Samu>it behaves like a normal left click right now
11:03<Samu>when i don't click on a vehicle, it opens stuff
11:03<Samu>opens windows
11:04<andythenorth>so you want to add a new mode
11:04<andythenorth>when clone tool is active, clicking on station opens station’s vehicle list
11:04<Samu>yes! yup
11:05<andythenorth>it does save a click
11:05<Samu>yes, that's all it do
11:08<@Alberth>how to know which vehicle to clone from the list?
11:08<Samu>the origin depot type
11:08<@Alberth>in general, there are many different vehicles with different orders arriving at a station
11:08<Samu>if its road vehicle depot, it opens road vehicle list
11:08<@Alberth>if it's electrical, you can have 2 types
11:09<@Alberth>yeah, so some coal trucks go to A, and some other coal trucks go to B, I want A, how to know that from the list?
11:10<Samu>that needs more clicks or knowledge of what your vehicles are going
11:10<andythenorth>Alberth: you see them in the list
11:10<@Alberth>I cannot click, as that would be a clone
11:10<andythenorth>it’s just changing which of the current windows open when clone tool is active
11:10<andythenorth>it saves a click, it’s not a dumb idea, but dunno if it adds anything except confusion :)
11:11<Samu>:)
11:11<@Alberth>andythenorth: but it just displays a truck, no way to know which one to clone, in general
11:11<Samu>i usually click on the station which has the cargo to load
11:11<Samu>not on the destination
11:12<@Alberth>doesn't matter
11:12<@Alberth>you get a bunch of vehicles in the list, and without further checking, you cannot find out which one you want to clone
11:13<@Alberth>except in the case when you bring everything to the same destination, but that's an exception
11:13<andythenorth>Alberth: you read the orders (for ships anyway)
11:13<andythenorth>I am -1 to this idea, but cloning is not fun :P
11:14<andythenorth>that RV screenshot I posted yesterday was a lot of painful cloning
11:17<@Alberth>ha, you cloned all those trucks, and then complained it was too busy? :)
11:20<@Alberth>hmm, it doesn't allow deleting of a save game, wtf?
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11:35<andythenorth>Alberth: yup :)
11:35<andythenorth>trying to see if I could do it without ships or trains
11:35<andythenorth>I won, but it was painful
11:35<@Alberth>:)
11:36<@Alberth>but you won! :D
11:36<Samu>i made the video anyway: http://1drv.ms/1q0Uk8t - guess where I chopped it
11:37<Phreeze>why put videos on onedrive, theres youtube for that :)
11:37<Phreeze>that dynamic quality shit sucks
11:37<Samu>google sucks
11:37<Samu>dynamic quality, what is that?
11:38<Phreeze>it's what onedrives uses
11:38<Phreeze>it shows the video in a bad quality
11:38<Samu>that's my quality
11:38<Phreeze>then after seconds, it sees: oh he can download faster, and augments the quality
11:38<Phreeze>why "google" sucks ?
11:38<andythenorth>Alberth: did we ever discuss consists, in the past? o_O
11:39<@Alberth>at least once, less than a week ago?
11:39<Samu>when google merged youtube accounts with theirs, I lost access to my youtube account
11:39<Samu>thx to google
11:40<Samu>i needed a google account to delete my youtube account, seriously enervating about it, that I decided I wouldn't use youtube ever again
11:40-!-Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-74-73-132-105.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
11:40<Phreeze>no
11:40<andythenorth>lo Snail
11:40<Phreeze>you just have to switch to the other account samu
11:40<Snail>hey andy
11:40<Samu>I didn't have a google account
11:41<Samu>they wanted to merge with something that didn't exit
11:41<Samu>exist
11:41<Phreeze>no android phone ? :)
11:41<Phreeze>fail per se ;)
11:42<Samu>the quality was supposed to be good, but I see
11:43<Samu>that red looks like pale red
11:43<Samu>the green grass is too bright
11:44<andythenorth>ugh
11:44*andythenorth rediscovers ‘refactor_this.less’
11:44<andythenorth>:(
11:44<andythenorth>oh the humanity
11:44<Samu>using handbrake to convert
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11:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by alberth :: r26554 trunk/src/fios.cpp (2014-05-03 15:45:54 UTC)
11:46<@DorpsGek>-Fix(r26489): Use last address of the destination buffer.
11:48<@Alberth>old crap has a way of turning up at the worst moments :)
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: is that related to the file not writable stuff?
11:50<Samu>i reported that bug
11:50<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: no, it was related to the comment of andy
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>i meant the commit
11:51<Samu>offtopic: what you think of this video quality http://1drv.ms/1fHdYfU - i'm using the save handbrake preset
11:51<Samu>same*
11:52<Phreeze>with quality i mean resolution
11:52<Phreeze>its like 300x200
11:52<Phreeze>then it dynamically adjusts
11:52<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: oh, I got "unable to delete file" when deleting a file
11:52<Phreeze>but again: use a free video website ;) like vimeo or so
11:53<Samu>can't you increase it to fullscreen?
11:53<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: just reading FS#6002, and I am currently wondering where the "File is not writable comes from"
11:53<Phreeze>it doesnt matter if full screen or not ... damn you dont get it
11:53<Phreeze>i'll screenshot it for you ;)
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: the forum thread made it sound like it's not setting the filename correctly
11:53<Samu>good, i need to see
11:53<@Alberth>mine was empty on deletion :)
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: so it might be trying to write to "emtpy string" or something
11:54<Samu>because it's onedrive, it's like dropbox, I deposit files there, it shouldn't convert them
11:54<Samu>it's a 1920x1080 video
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: use a lossless codec?
11:57<Snail>just wondering… anyone out there still using ttdpatch?
11:58<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: I can save in both versions
11:58<Samu>lossless lagarith? i shall try it for openttd
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: someone said saving only worked on win32, not win64
11:59<Samu>for other more animated high fps videos, lagarith isn't too fast as xvid
11:59<Samu>i was using xvid
11:59*Alberth uses linux 64 bits
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: i only know ZMBV, but i never tried to make a video with it
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12:01<andythenorth>Snail: silence...
12:01<andythenorth>Wallyweb probably
12:01<Snail>:)
12:01<Snail>coz I’m tempted to use a feature in my code, that’s not supported by ttdpatch
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>i've never ever even considered TTDP compatibility
12:05<andythenorth>I considered it
12:05<andythenorth>right after I finished smoking crack
12:08<andythenorth>hmm
12:08<andythenorth>time for a break from work
12:08<andythenorth>has anyone made a new GS yet? o_O
12:08<andythenorth>or do I have to play SV *again* :P
12:09<Samu>eddi, plz post a screenshot of how u see the video
12:10<Samu>Eddi|zuHause:
12:10<Samu>trying to find out why this color change in the resulting video
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>i have not watched the video
12:11<Samu>oh, it's Phreeze , soz
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>but in general colour changes in jpeg because it's so lossy
12:11<Samu>it was captured as YV12
12:12<Samu>then transcoded using handbrake
12:12<Samu>handbrake did change the color, I dunno why
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>it's all jpeg-based
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>discrete cosinus transformation and stuff
12:14<Samu>x264 is the video codec
12:14<__ln___>eeeeeeeenglisshhhhhh, cosine
12:14<Samu>but i see
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>which means things are overlaid with curves, and straight lines blur
12:14<Samu>there's a lossless x264, but I can't see anything with it, don't have a decoder for it
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12:20<Phreeze>yay just damaged my gfs phone lcd while replacing the glass
12:21<Phreeze>fuck it
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>why would you do that yourself in the first place?
12:22<@planetmaker>just because?
12:24<@planetmaker>Snail, I'm not sure whether this channel is the right place to find out :)
12:24<@planetmaker>Snail, not exactly new, but George asked some time ago... http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=30188&start=1760
12:25<Snail>yeah should place a message on the forums
12:25<Snail>planetmaker: yep remember that. Was wondering if that changed at all
12:25<@planetmaker>you'll always have the odd person playing TTDPatch
12:26<Snail>I myself would love to use ttdpatch, if I could on my mac (without emulation)
12:26<Snail>at least to get programmable signals :p
12:27<@planetmaker>The question is whether you want to go to great lengths to support both. Or whether you simply branch you code and add OpenTTD stuff in the OpenTTD branch only (or leave-out OpenTTD stuff in that branch)
12:27<Samu>lucky find - http://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=35683&p=306810&hilit=zmbv+codec#p306810
12:27<@planetmaker>or simply ignore one of the two
12:28<Snail>right, the problem is that ttdpatch doesn’t seem to support “spriteblocks” with > 255 items
12:29<Snail>and to correctly code push-pull in certain cases I need large blocks of sprites
12:30<Snail>another perhaps unrelated question
12:30<Snail>any thoughts about separating the graphics of a sprite from its offsets?
12:30<Snail>right now we have to define both at the same time
12:31<Snail>so if the same graphics needs to have different offsets (happens with push-pull) you have to load the “real” graphical sprite twice
12:31<Snail>would be much better if we could define the graphics first, then the offsets, and then link them together...
12:33<@planetmaker>well, you can... in OpenTTD :P
12:33<@planetmaker>extended spritesets for the win
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12:36<Eddi|zuHause><Snail> any thoughts about separating the graphics of a sprite from its offsets? <-- i suggested this before, but got shot down
12:36<Snail>heh. On what grounds was it shot down?
12:37<Snail>I think it would be extremely useful for us newGRF developers
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>something about performance
12:37<Snail>hmm… so having a code that defines 4 times the same graphics is good, performance-wise? :p
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>yes-ish
12:39<@planetmaker>Snail, yes. OpenTTD is CPU-limited mostly. Not memory-limited
12:39<andythenorth>what’s the problem with the graphics being specified with offsets?
12:39<Snail>andythenorth: when doing push-pull, you need to change the offsets for the “reversed” (pushing) case
12:39<Snail>while the graphics is exactly the same
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>Snail: imagine i want to make the graphics callback return offsets based on var61, the game has to calculate these offsets (slow) and store these offsets somewhere next to the sprite
12:40<andythenorth>Snail: push-pull is a BAD FEATURE anyway :)
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>so the same sprite may have different offsets depending on where it is drawn
12:40<Snail>so it would be easier and less confusing to define the graphics only once, then define two offsets, and then link graphics + the required offsets
12:40<Snail>andythenorth: LOL
12:41<Snail>Edd|zuHause: yes that’s the point, same sprite, different offsets
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>Snail: so the sprite cache gets much more difficult
12:41<Snail>ok I get it :p
12:41<andythenorth>Snail: how are you defining graphics? o_O
12:41<Snail>andythenorth: currently, you define graphics and offsets at the same time. My idea was to define them separately and then link them. But it looks like this would imply large performance issues
12:42*andythenorth ponders
12:42<andythenorth>Snail: paste?
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>Snail: even if performance isn't the actual problem, it'd be a major change in architecture
12:43<andythenorth>Snail: what templating are you using?
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>Snail: which makes it a hard problem
12:43<andythenorth>m4nfo?
12:43<Snail>andythenorth: yes
12:43<Snail>m4nfo makes it quite easy to define the offsets, you just specify them as a macro
12:43<andythenorth>I would have thought it gets rid of the work for you
12:43<andythenorth>example of some code?
12:44<Snail>it does… mechanically. But still, the code keeps defining the same graphics, and that’s not so elegant :p
12:44<andythenorth>ach, you don’t worry about reading the generated code
12:44<andythenorth>unless you actually have a performance issue, elegance in the generated code is not a goal
12:44<Snail>ok, this is a diesel engine going “forward” (pulling the train(
12:44<Snail> set(template({NG_13p2M},BB600cv.png,x(LAYOUT_STANDARD),y(130)))
12:44<Snail>and this is the same engine going “backward” (pushing the train)
12:44<Snail>set(template({NG_13p2M_R},BB600cv.png,x(LAYOUT_FLIPPED),y(130)))
12:45<andythenorth>yeah, that looks quite reasonable
12:45<Snail>different “template” (i.e. different offsets) and different order the sprites are taken in
12:45<Snail>this gets expanded in a large set of NFO code lines
12:45<@planetmaker>who cares about that?
12:45<andythenorth>hangon
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>that is somewhat similar to how i do it
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>with the left and right turning angles
12:46<@planetmaker>everyone does it that way :)
12:46<Snail>:)
12:47<Snail>Eddi|zuHause: so you have 16 sprites for *all* your vehicles?
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>yes, the problem is that andythenorth doesn't actually understand what things do, and just tweaks numbers until it looks right
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>Snail: 24
12:47<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: :(
12:47<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: andythenorth does have some feelings
12:47<Snail>wow. 24 even for the shortest vehicles?
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>yes
12:48<Snail>I once thought about that too. But then again. If I did 24 sprites for all, it would take me 30 years to finish my set :D
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>but it makes things way easier code-wise
12:49<Snail>having 24 views?
12:49<andythenorth>Snail: this (34 lines) defines a vehicle, https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/iron-horse/repository/entry/src/vehicles/cargo_sprinter.py
12:49<andythenorth>and this (1298 lines) is the result http://paste.openttdcoop.org/raw/3292/
12:49<andythenorth>most of it is whitespace :x
12:49<andythenorth>but I don’t worry about the elegance of that generated code
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>Snail: no, having all vehicles use the exact same template
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/entry/src/gfx/template_16_8bpp_normal.png
12:50<Snail>oh, right
12:50<andythenorth>yeah, what Eddi said
12:50<andythenorth>+1
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/entry/src/gfx/template_3_8bpp_normal.png
12:50<andythenorth>I accidentally have 2 in my train set, because we switched to 10/8 after we had lots of 8/8 vehicles drawn
12:50<Snail>but how can you do with shorter vehicles?
12:51<Snail>hehe there ya go
12:51<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/iron-horse/repository/entry/src/graphics/box_car_ng_brit_gen_1_0.png
12:51<andythenorth>shorter vehicles :P
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>the lengths go from 3 to 16
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>there's a basic template for each length, but all use the same offsets
12:52<Snail>but how can you do with push-pull?
12:52<andythenorth>we can’t
12:52<andythenorth>we have articulated vehicles
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>i don't...
12:52<Snail>sometimes you need to change the offsets for the inverse direction
12:52<Snail>ah I see
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>push-pull is something i decided i won't even attempt
12:52<andythenorth>push-pull, engine-flip and multi-headed engines are all not available to us
12:53<Snail>not even multi-headed engines?
12:53<andythenorth>nope
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>i had a concept for multiheaded articulated engines
12:53<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, before I try that (again), I try that in OpenTTD code rather. Or outsource that to you or so ;)
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>but i never got around to implement that
12:53<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you could swap the graphics on last vehicle, and set length appropriately?
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: exactly :p
12:54<Snail>but you also need to swap each and every wagon
12:54<Snail>unless their graphics are exactly the same
12:54<andythenorth>and power :P
12:54<andythenorth>and TE and weight :P
12:54<andythenorth>and cargo
12:54<andythenorth>ugh
12:54<Snail>why power, te and weight?
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but the last vehicle may be a 1-part vehicle and the first vehicle 3-parts
12:54<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: forbid combining with other newgrfs? o_O
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: then you go insane
12:55<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: we may be at that point?
12:55<Snail>Eddi|zuHause: so code the last vehicle as 3-part too
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i have this mixture in my grf
12:55<andythenorth>oic :)
12:55<andythenorth>I thought you insisted on simplicity :P
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>Snail: the turning stages don't work well if the vehicle parts get too short
12:56<Snail>ah I see
12:56<andythenorth>Snail: convinced yet that the dupliation is ok? o_O
12:56<Snail>andythenorth: :D
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it's simple. it's an array defining: "12: (3,6,3)"
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>so a 12 lu vehicle will have 3 parts
12:57<Snail>Eddi|zuHause: so your UIC coaches are 16/8 long?
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>of these lengths
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>Snail: i think we settled on 13
12:57<Snail>hmm
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>Snail: sets the scale at 2px = 1m in - view
12:57<Snail>interesting. In my scale I’ll use 12 :p
12:58<Snail>heh. Mine is 90cm :D
12:58<Snail>(I tweaked it this way to have UIC coaches (26.4m) to be exaclty 12/8 long)
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>i wanted 16 originally, but there were both optical and gameplay reasons against it
12:58<Snail>Eddi|zuHause: yeah I guess so
12:59<Snail>I think something like yours makes sense. Makes “long” narrow gauge vehicles be 8/8 or 9/8 long. That’s a good effect IMO
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>when deciding on the smaller scale i wanted at least 2x zoom vehicles, but no artist would commit to that
12:59<@planetmaker>:(
12:59<Snail>eddi|zuHause: I bet
13:00<Snail>even a rivet-counter like myself had to give it up...
13:00<Snail>don’t get me wrong I’d love to draw vehicles with better detail
13:00<@planetmaker>if you go the pikka approach, rendering could work. With some skew / distortion
13:00<Snail>but this is not my day-job :D
13:00<Snail>nah I can’t render to save my life
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>i'll probably try pixeltool sometime
13:00<Snail>I grew up on Deluxe Paint, so it’s pixel pushing forever
13:00<andythenorth>pixeltool looks like a winner
13:01<Snail>hmm :)
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>it seems like the next logical step up from my crude pixa stuff
13:01<@planetmaker>it's a nice tool for sure
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>if i get it to run from the generator script
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13:02<Snail>tbh I have too much fun to draw manually
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>i think i have too much fun generating stuff :p
13:02<andythenorth>pixeltool is a much better solution than pixa
13:02<andythenorth>pixa is fine for recoloring
13:03<andythenorth>and mangling spritesheets
13:03<andythenorth>not for drawing vehicles
13:04<Samu>hey Eddi|zuHause , lossless x264 - http://1drv.ms/1q16RZm
13:04<Samu>converted from rgb24
13:04<Samu>it changed colors, I can't do any better with what i have
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't really work well if you can't keep the exact resolution
13:07<Samu>download the file then, it should be 1280x720
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13:08<Samu>it shouldn't be different to what you see in a video player
13:10*andythenorth had better fix RV offsets
13:10<andythenorth>time to tweak some numbers I don’t understand :(
13:11<Samu>the video next to it, is using ZMBV codec i just tried
13:12<Samu>but it can't play on the browser, only if you download
13:12<Samu>it's black
13:12<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: offsets could be reverse engineered from ottd vehicle code? Solving the issue definitively?
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: offsets are a solved issue. it's not my fault you don't understand the solution...
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13:17<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: maybe the colour change was already in your source material?
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13:22<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so where is the solution documented?
13:22<andythenorth>other than cargo-culting from other sets
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: some of my early templated had dots in them for where the sprite anchor was
13:23<andythenorth>they still in the repo?
13:23<andythenorth>without hunting n old changesets?
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>in some earlier rev
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13:24<andythenorth>meh, I’ll do it by, again
13:24<andythenorth>like I have for the last 6 years :(
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>try rev 81
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>the 16lu template
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/revisions/81/entry/src/gfx/template_16.png
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>they might not be complete
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>you need different offsets depending on direction
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>cut off the front and back segment if you want to know offsets for a regular 8lu vehicle
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>and only look at every 3rd sprite for the regular views
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>so 1/4/7/10
13:29<andythenorth>so the dividers are 4/8 units?
13:29<andythenorth>and the red dots are?
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>yes
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>the red dots are the back of the vehicle
13:29<andythenorth>the dark dot is the zero point?
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>yes-ish
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13:30<Eddi|zuHause>on the 8th sprite you see the difference between the offsets for the different directions
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>i stopped putting down dots when i figured out the system
13:32<andythenorth>for different length vehicles, ottd presumably re-centers the zero point?
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>the ingame sprite aligner helps a lot
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>no
13:32<andythenorth>it doesn’t :o
13:32<andythenorth>that was a major false assumption by me :P
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>it's fixed at the front of the vehicle
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>look at the 3lu template i linked earlier
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>offsets are the same, but vehicle is shifted within the template to match
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>it's not symmetric anymore
13:34<andythenorth>hmm
13:36<andythenorth>did you calculate /measure the resulting offsets for this? Or did you do it by eye with BB in-game?
13:38<Samu>i created an animated gif, it maintained the original colors
13:39<Samu>strange, usually gid destroys colors
13:39<Samu>gif*
13:40<@planetmaker>learn about palette vs truecolour
13:41<Samu>gif-video: https://rupavq.dm2302.livefilestore.com/y2ppqDmumaobY7yFFHBuKDo8Ab4kxac0suOKdmJ7HizJel7o9b0uS3e2CPyN4vJ6gxMzEk1CUf4-Cl8l2xY7QQwn2KpQ5MpRdF6f86VY157zqI/bandicam%202014-05-03%2017-35-00-243.gif?psid=1
13:41<Samu>should take a bit to start
13:42<Samu>it's 16 MB
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13:44<andythenorth>hmm
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26555 /trunk/src/lang (czech.txt english_US.txt) (2014-05-03 17:45:18 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>czech - 18 changes by Eskymak
13:45<@DorpsGek>english_US - 5 changes by Supercheese
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: then clearly you have some wrong option set in the encoder that screws up the colours
13:46<Samu>so that's.... handbrake
13:46<Samu>ok, thanks
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know handbrake
13:46<Samu>http://handbrake.fr
13:47<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so did you calculate, or set offsets by eye? o_O
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>i tried by eye, then i got fed up and did the calculation
13:48<andythenorth>ok, so it’s a viable route
13:48<andythenorth>I wasn’t going to spend an evening calcultating to then find out you did it by eye :P
13:48<andythenorth>calcultating?
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>get the bounding box, and find the invisible corner
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>that's where your sprite offset needs to be
13:50<andythenorth>right, that’s a simple method
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13:54<Samu>I always wondered how autosave works when multiple openttds are saving
13:55<Samu>do they screw each other?
13:55<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so it’s more measuring on the spritesheet template than calculating?
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: yes
13:56<@planetmaker>andy, no, you don't need to. The length is known
13:57<Samu>how does windows manages it
13:57<@planetmaker>so you basically can start from there and obtain the rest
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: in which context?
13:57<Samu>if one autosave slot is being in use and the other wants to save with that name also
13:57<andythenorth>planetmaker: ?
13:58<Samu>concurrent access to the same autosave
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: in general, while one program writes to a file, every other program is blocked from writing to that file
14:01<@planetmaker>andythenorth, if you know the length of the vehicle in LU, and you know how the vehicle scales in / and | views, I'd argue that you can obtain the offsets when you know how it has to be for 8/8 LU vehicle in -- view
14:01<@Alberth>depends on the platform :p
14:02<@planetmaker>andythenorth, but I have to confess I went for the visual offset-pushing ;)
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if you have block-y vehicles, it's simple counting of pixels.
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if your vehicles have weird shapes you have to be a bit more creative
14:08<andythenorth>I am counting pixels right now
14:08<andythenorth>seems to work
14:08<andythenorth>to get correct results I have to do a subtraction from spritesheet crop size
14:10<andythenorth>I think that’s incorrect
14:11<Samu>question: i have 2 docks, in which one of them doesn't accept mail momentaneously, but the ship is going towards both without full orders so it has mail from both docks. How do I tell it to unload part of the mail that is accepted from one of the docks and keeps the other part?
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14:13<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: "unload and leave empty"
14:14<Samu>that means it goes empty :(
14:14<andythenorth>are you using cdist?
14:14<Samu>uh? nop
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: at the dock that accepts the mail
14:14<Samu>let me try
14:15<andythenorth>trying to route specific cargo without cdist is not a thing
14:16<Samu>i dont know what is cdist, is it a game setting?
14:17<andythenorth>yes
14:17<andythenorth>cargo distribution
14:17<andythenorth>sorry for jargon :)
14:17<andythenorth>right, the - / and \ views are easy to calculate
14:17<Samu>distribution mode for mail: manual
14:17<Samu>should i change?
14:17<andythenorth>I always find the | views a total bastard
14:19<Samu>it's not working as I intend
14:19<Samu>let's say I have 30 bags of mail from dock 1 and 50 bags of mail from dock 2, already loaded on the ship
14:19<andythenorth>Samu: switching on cargo distribution gives you quite a different game play style
14:19<andythenorth>try it?
14:20<andythenorth>you may find it takes a while to adjust :)
14:20<Samu>if docks 1 accepts mail, can't it just unload 50 from the docks 2 and keep the 30?
14:20<andythenorth>the BB for | views is kind of useless
14:20<andythenorth>why can we draw an accurate one for \ and / but not for | ?
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14:22<peter1139>Because it can only be aligned to a grid.
14:22<andythenorth>k
14:25<Phreeze>samu they are all unloaded
14:26<Phreeze>with cdist off
14:28<Samu>http://i.imgur.com/oPUgnJA.png
14:28<andythenorth>well that was ridiculously easy https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/6066/8_8_rh_offsets.png
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: if you keep the 30 from dock 1, then you load additional mail from dock 1, and your ship slowly fills up with mail from dock 1, which it cannot unload at dock 2
14:30<andythenorth>what’s the compression ratio for x between – and \ views?
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: 2, if you use 32px view
14:31<andythenorth>I get anything from 0.5 to 0.7 measuring from sprites :P
14:32<andythenorth>ok, so once 8/8 length offsets are known, all the others are just a caculation based on length?
14:32<andythenorth>assuming sensible spritesheet...
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>it should be 0.7-ish if you want to keep perspective
14:32<andythenorth>yeah, so a lot of FISH is wrong because it comes from incorrect renders
14:32<andythenorth>nvm
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if you align the vehicle correctly within the spritesheet, the offsets should not depend on length
14:33<andythenorth>iff
14:33<peter1139>sqrt(2)/2?
14:33<peter1139>1/sqrt(2)
14:33<peter1139>oh
14:33<peter1139>same :p
14:34<peter1139>and offsets should be at the centre of the vehicle
14:34<peter1139>unlike zbase :(
14:39-!-DanMacK [~0a0a6574@188.cimarosa.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
14:39<DanMacK>Hey all
14:40<andythenorth>hey DanMacK
14:41<DanMacK>how goes it?
14:41*andythenorth is fixing road vehicle offsets
14:41<andythenorth>don’t attempt that when your test vehicle has a borked spritesheet
14:42<DanMacK>lol
14:43<andythenorth>4x zoom is a fricking lifesaver for offset checking
14:45<Samu>cargo distribution is confusing, i need to understand what's going on
14:46<Samu>ah I see, i need 3 stations at least
14:47<andythenorth>it’s quite a different way to play
14:48<Samu>10 bags of mail from this station, 3 wants to go to station 2, 7 wants to go to station 3
14:48<Samu>it still picks the whole 10 bags though
14:51<Samu>interesting, i must play with these settings some time
14:54*andythenorth got the wrong adjustment from 8/8 to 7/8 offsets for — :(
14:54<andythenorth>I subtracted 4, looks like I need to subtract 2
14:54<andythenorth>which doesn’t make sense
14:56<@planetmaker>centre-based vs. edge-based, andythenorth ?
14:56<andythenorth>or rather, it makes sense, but it’s now how I understood the explanation :P
14:56<andythenorth>delta / 2 would be the conventional way in all the game engines I used in my murky past
14:56<andythenorth>which would be 2
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>if you centerd it, it would be 2, if you aligned it to the front, it would be 0, if you aligned it to the back it would be 4
15:01<andythenorth>one view is aligned front, one view is aligned back
15:01<andythenorth>8/8 vs. 7/8
15:02<andythenorth>both 7/8 views require an x delta of 2 wrt to the 8/8 views
15:02<andythenorth>ok I think I understand now
15:03<Samu>omg, the reddit server is funny, so much station spreading it's even hard to follow where the cargo is coming from
15:03<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: this ‘measure the invisible corner’ route is very fast and accurate for / \ views
15:04<andythenorth>thanks
15:04<Phreeze>out for a drink, cyas
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15:07<andythenorth>DanMacK: so you got a 6/8 long RV open in paint?
15:07<andythenorth>no sprites = no offsets :D
15:09<DanMacK>Got a 7/8... but I can get a 6/8 :P
15:09<andythenorth>find one we need :)
15:09<andythenorth>ho, they’re all articulated trucks :(
15:10<DanMacK>heh
15:11<DanMacK>There are a couple non-artics
15:11<andythenorth>and tram offsets were ‘special’ last time I tried :(
15:11<DanMacK>hmmm
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15:12*andythenorth wonders if tram offsets are special, or if the tram tracks are just drawn wrong
15:13<andythenorth>iirc, impossible to align to track for both drive sides
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>just try again with the offsets you now know
15:19<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: issue was this https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3247
15:19<andythenorth>so maybe just bad offsets :P
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>well you could just provide different sets of offsets depending on driving side
15:22<andythenorth>yup
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15:56<Samu>can openmsx be used for other files than midi?
15:56<Samu>would it play?
15:57<frosch123>no
15:59<Samu>:(
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>there was a really ancient mp3 patch
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>but nobody bothered
16:01<frosch123>disabling the music works, that's all i care about
16:02<Samu>so, only midis?
16:02<frosch123>if you are lucky
16:02<Samu>not even .mod files? they're similar
16:02<frosch123>but in various cases not even that
16:02<frosch123>.mod is nowhere any similar to midi
16:03<Samu>there's still a tracker to play the sounds in order
16:03<frosch123>well, ok, both separate between instruments and notes
16:03<Rubidium>.mod and .mid is just off-by-one on many keyboards, so they must be similar
16:03<Rubidium>just like mp3 and mp4 are similar
16:04<frosch123>mp3 is layer 3 of mp2 or something like that
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16:05<Samu>is this your page? http://openmsx.sourceforge.net/
16:06<frosch123>no, that is completely unrelated to ottd
16:07<Rubidium>though... on Unix-y OSes it might be possible to run other files than midi by configuring extmidi to be some other music player
16:08<peter1139>extmidi not built on Windows?
16:08<frosch123>though the question arises why anyone would use the internal player anyway
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that's the "nobody bothered" part
16:08<Taede>hysterical raisins?
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>anyone who wanted different music and could be willing to care, just used an external music player
16:09<Rubidium>peter1139: nope, it doesn't seem to be ported to Windows' interpretation of signals and the likes
16:09<andythenorth>all games must have a music player
16:09<andythenorth>it’s a law
16:09<andythenorth>in case my OS didn’t have an MP3 player...
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but i know no game where you could actually change the internal music
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>i mean "officially"
16:10<peter1139>Heh
16:10<frosch123>there was an era where you could change the music by insertnig a different cd
16:10<peter1139>I remember quite a lot of effort went into a generic music player interface...
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16:14<frosch123>there was also a time when people were proud of having 10 gb of mp3, of which they have barely heard 10% and barely liked 5% or so
16:14-!-Godde [~quassel@72.79-160-59.customer.lyse.net] has joined #openttd
16:14<peter1139>Errrr
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16:15<peter1139>So that 83GB directory full of music I've got...
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16:17<@Alberth>you have some listening to do?
16:19<Samu>lol, i just came accross this: http://i.imgur.com/pCi6gyt.png
16:19<Samu>that tunnel doesn't make much sense
16:19<frosch123>why?
16:19<Taede>its no worse than building a bridge to preserve the river
16:20<Samu>it makes the water look too thin after all
16:20<peter1139>I listen regularly. Is it common to not have music collections now?
16:20<frosch123>i am only streaming
16:21<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26556 /trunk (source.list src/music/extmidi.cpp) (2014-05-03 20:21:01 UTC)
16:21<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: use sources.list to tell a file shouldn't be built for a particular platform
16:21<frosch123>who bothers maintaining a collection if you have a streaming service which is managed by someone else?
16:21<peter1139>Hardly need maintaining.
16:21<Rubidium>streaming is still kinda bothersome in certain situations
16:21<Samu>electrified rails on a tunnel with a river over it, strange realism
16:22<frosch123>i do not listen to music at work
16:22<frosch123>would be pointless anyway
16:23*Rubidium was more thinking of certains travel locations
16:23<peter1139>I would use up my 1GB/month mobile allowance rather rapidly if I streaming everything.
16:23<peter1139>*streamed
16:23<Rubidium>e.g. over( )seas
16:24<Samu>my music collection is 6,36 GB (6.832.728.576 bytes)
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16:24<peter1139>Hmm, 2.45GB music sync from Amazon, mostly £0.00
16:25<Samu>mp3, wma, aac, flac and wav
16:25<Samu>all mixed up
16:26<peter1139>Format only matters when it comes to syncing to a portable device.
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16:28<Samu>a bridge over a river is more likely to happen in reality
16:28<Samu>than a tunnel under a river
16:28<frosch123>have you been to hamburg?
16:28<Samu>no
16:29<frosch123>well, there is a popular tunnel under a river
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16:31<__ln___>even two, it seems.
16:31<__ln___>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbe_Tunnel_%281911%29
16:34<Rubidium>there's also at least one in the Netherlands
16:35<Samu>i dont travel much
16:35<Samu>:(
16:35<Taede>coentunnel in amsterdam
16:36<Taede>and one in rotterdam too
16:37<__ln___>also the london underground crosses thames underground and underriver.
16:37<Taede>and then theres loads of aquaducts too
16:37<Rubidium>that's #2 (Willemsspoortunnel in Rotterdam; merely four tracks wide and half a few hundred meter or so wide river)
16:38<Rubidium>hmm... I should've thought harder
16:38<Rubidium>Keyrail probably has more tunnels under rivers than Prorail ;)
16:38<Rubidium>actually, the Coentunnel in Amsterdam is for cars. The one for trains is the Hemtunnel
16:39<George>[18:27:54] <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium, George: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/varF8.patch
16:39<George>Could someone provide win32 executable for me?
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>George: that patch is stupid, use the other one
16:40<George>I can't use patchs, I can use win32 executable
16:40<frosch123>Taede: hmm, i have only seen aquaducts near ship lifts or or locks
16:40<frosch123>are there bigger things in nl?
16:40<Taede>https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.0789029,5.8242996,929m/data=!3m1!1e3
16:41<Taede>thats one that springs to mind, as ive traveled underneath a lot
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: Mittellandkanal/Elbe is a large aquaeduct
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>and there are loads of smaller canals in france that have aquaeducts
16:41<Rubidium>Infraspeed/HSL/high speed tracks has two, Keyrail/Betuweroute (incl. "havenspoorlijnen", cargo only routes) has 4 (one under two rivers) and Prorail (normal/other rails) has 4 as well
16:44<Rubidium>although... the question becomes... what is a river and what isn't? For there to be a consideration for a tunnel, the river should at least be navigable by large ships
16:45<Rubidium>and all the rest gets basically a bridge of some sorts
16:47<Rubidium>but I guess I digress
16:47<Taede>so what constitutes a large ship?
16:47<Rubidium>width: > 10 meters, length: > 50 meters, draft: > 5 meters?
16:48<frosch123>isn't ship size measured in whether they fit unter bridges or through canals?
16:48<frosch123>and otherwise as big as possible?
16:48<frosch123>panama-canal-sized ships and such
16:48<frosch123>or elbe-sized ships
16:49<Rubidium>true, but... height is not always a problem
16:50<frosch123>Samu: anyway, considering the images on the web, canals bridges are not particular deep
16:50<frosch123>so nothing wrong with ottd there
16:50<Samu>ok
16:50<Samu>i just found it funny
16:51<Rubidium>... when there are bascule or swing bridges
16:51<Samu>cargo distribution disables subsidies?
16:52<Rubidium>a number of the Dutch rail bridges have been replaced by tunnels because the bridge needed to "open" too often for the amount of trains that needed/wanted to pass
16:52<frosch123>Samu: http://www.meva.at/global/img/all/presse/72dpi/08_11_24-Wasserstrassenkreuzung_Minden-Foto_1-RGB-5626.jpg
16:52<frosch123>there is water on the top
16:52<Samu>scary thought, so close to electric post
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16:53<frosch123>what? lol
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16:53<frosch123>better install an umbrella at those lamps :)
16:53<frosch123>in case it is raining
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16:53<Samu>oh :\
16:54<Taede>if water from the canal/river reaches the electric line, the electric system is what i'd be worried about least
16:54<frosch123>seriously, if that breaks you have other issues :p
16:54<frosch123>there is a lot of water in a canal
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16:54<frosch123>enough to flood your town likely
16:54<Taede>and a lot of stones keeping it up
16:54<Rubidium>if the amount of water leaking out of the aqueduct is so large that is exceeds the massive rainstorms under which the catenary still has to work, then... there'll be more problems than just some shorting of catenary
16:55<Rubidium>it might actually be seen as a 'safety' system; shutting down rail traffic before it's fully flooded, but only if it leaks exactly above the catenary
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16:56<Rubidium>I'd be more scared of foot bridges and morons trying to piss on the catenary than aqueducts
16:56<Rubidium>*queue mythbusters episode* ;)
16:57<frosch123>there is bridge over a railtrack in my town
16:57<frosch123>it has glass "walls" at the sides
16:58<frosch123>which for some reason earthened quite solidly
16:58<frosch123>*are
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16:58<frosch123>no idea whether static loads on glass would be likely near catenary
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17:00<Rubidium>I guess it's precautionary
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17:01<Rubidium>in case a catenary breaks and is tossed into the glass
17:02<Samu>is cargo distribution disabling the subsidies?
17:02<frosch123>yes
17:03<Samu>woah, there is a huge difference in profit with this enabled
17:04<Samu>it's only 1/6 of the profit
17:04<Samu>poor AI
17:04<Samu>not ready for this
17:09<Samu>does autoclean no vehicles will kick in if the only vehicle that was available in a company is destroyed by another player?
17:12<frosch123>ofc
17:12<frosch123>ottd has no graveyard for vehicles to remember who murdered them
17:13<Samu>unfair
17:13<frosch123>does it matter?
17:13<Samu>well, not much if the player doesn't come back
17:14<frosch123>puberty is the phase between realizing that life is unfair, and realizing that that is not necessarily bad
17:14<frosch123>or something like that
17:15<Samu>there's pink on my server, he only got a bus now
17:19<frosch123>well, he'll use a tank newgrf next time
17:19<frosch123>and go train hunting
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17:28<Eddi|zuHause>we should make a newgrf property for that :p
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>"structural integrity"
17:29<Taede>rv_crashes_train instead of other way around?
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>something like that
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>modern lightweight DMUs are frequently destroyed on hitting cars
17:31<Samu>i posted this earlier today, wondering if it's useful for anything http://i.imgur.com/jgJfTDH.png
17:32<Samu>i was asking for a way to customize empty loaded trains a bit better
17:32<frosch123>a sheep flock is enough to derail a highspeed train
17:32<Samu>for realistic acceleration
17:33<frosch123>customizable realism sounds cool
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17:34<Samu>for early engine models, realistic acceleration is too good
17:34<Samu>even with weight x3 and steepness 10%
17:35<frosch123>use a vehicle newgrf then
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: only in tunnels :p
17:35<Samu>if I adjust these a bit more, it becomes a bit off-balanced for whenever the trains are full loaded
17:35<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: true, there are no level crossings inside tunnels in ottd
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: that assumes that "original" is any kind of useful reference value?
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17:36<Samu>yes, but i want to stop using original, I want a similar approach using realistic
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: that's a nice graph, but it doesn't say there is any actual problem
17:37<Samu>thanks, i have more
17:37<frosch123>we should ottd turn into a pure game platform
17:38<frosch123>remove default climates, default vehicles, default industries, ...
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: like minigames and stuff?
17:38<frosch123>only allow adding stuff via grf
17:38<frosch123>then people would stop comparing stuff
17:38<Samu>let me find the full loaded graph
17:39<Samu>sec
17:39<frosch123>resp. use the comparison result for choosing, instead of as a reason to change
17:39<Samu>here - http://i.imgur.com/3WeC6YE.png
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17:41<Samu>then i also have the sum of all days all engines made using a set of settings
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: let me stop you right there and tell you that the last time we changed realistic acceleration to be less effective, we got a large number of complaints that people's savegames were unplayable now
17:42<Samu>:(
17:42<Samu>just change the default for new openttd installations then, I guess
17:42<Samu>or nevermind
17:44<Samu>this graph here adds all days on an example of a pure straight line with no cliffs: http://i.imgur.com/UTbGRu3.png
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17:46<Eddi|zuHause>... i have rarely seen a less meaningful statistic...
17:46-!-Samu [~oftc-webi@po2-84-90-120-62.netvisao.pt] has joined #openttd
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>... i have rarely seen a less meaningful statistic...
17:46<Rubidium>you know realistic acceleration was meant to stop trains from dropping their speed a large amount when going up one tile height level and to prevent them from going at 640 km/h through a 90 degree corner?
17:46<Samu>my last graphic i want to show: http://i.imgur.com/oaWTokq.png
17:47<Rubidium>neither of these scenario's is covered in your test, as such... I'd concur with Eddi's conclusion
17:47<Samu>that's full load on the real-game example from the other graph
17:47<Samu>there are no 90 degrees because it is forced as game setting
17:48<Samu>but there are a few turns
17:48<Samu>i can provide savegame if u want
17:48<Samu>do you?
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: for "realistic acceleration", everything is a curve that has two turns in the same direction within one train length
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17:50<Rubidium>Samu: since it's a setting it's not forced
17:50<Rubidium>but besides that, two close 45 degree corners can make a 90 degree corner as well
17:50<Samu>ah I see, I believe there's a few of those
17:51<Samu>there's also one uphill that is harder to go
17:51<Samu>takes 2 tiles
17:51<Samu>not adjacent, but for the whole composite
17:52<Rubidium>anyhow, those two changes are why the acceleration model is called realistic; it's more realistic than the original one. Later TE got added
17:52<Rubidium>in any case, neither acceleration is 100% realistic
17:53<Rubidium>a) a train doesn't take days to accelerate to max speed
17:53<Rubidium>b) a train doesn't take hundreds of kilometers to accelerate to max speed
17:53<Rubidium>c) a (fast) train doesn't take a few hundred meters to accelerate to max speed
17:54<Rubidium>d) a train doesn't stop instantly
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>e) a train's acceleration is actually affected by weather and stuff
17:55*Rubidium was just writing something along those lines
17:55<Samu>it was a nice research for me anyway, I was looking for the equivalent combination, pretty much just to say that realistic x2 with 10% freight cargo is the best approach to simulate original difficult
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>f) a train's max speed is defined by its braking power more than its acceleration power
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>especially downhill
17:56<Rubidium>pff... trains go at the speed of light
17:56<Samu>the only problem is that there's not much customization for empty-loaded trains going downhill
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: remember that patch that removed max speed from realistic acceleration?
17:56<Rubidium>(for some observers)
17:57<Rubidium>not really, but sounds like infinispeed
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: if the observers are light particles, then yes
17:57<Rubidium>or close to it
17:59<Rubidium>hmm... time for bed
17:59<Rubidium>night
18:13<Samu>heh i just noticed i missed T.I.M lol
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18:14<Samu>doesn't matter
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18:29<Wolf01>'night
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19:09<Samu>can river tiles become indestructible one day?
19:10<Samu>treat them like unmovable objects?
19:10<Samu>much like lighthouse tiles
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>if you implement it...
19:12<Samu>oh :(
19:12<Samu>I guess not
19:13<@planetmaker>it's open source and patches can be accepted
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19:15<Samu>who invented rivers for the map generator?
19:16<Samu>indestructible river tiles can be bad for locks
19:17<Samu>unless the map generator could generate them rivers a bit different
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>you can always reroute the river by canals
19:17<@planetmaker>Samu, did you ever build locks on a river and destroy it again?
19:18<Samu>yes
19:18<Samu>it keeps the river tiles
19:19<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, how about some smooth jazz? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDvt5q6bt1s
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19:21<Samu>just tried, the river is still a river
19:21<Samu>not a water tile owned by me
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19:22<Eddi|zuHause>if you don't like smooth jazz, maybe this is more to your liking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6tKZ-cg4RI
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19:41<Samu>changing game settings in the middle of a server makes everyone confused, lolol
19:43<Samu>does weight multiplier also apply to trucks? nevermind, I will check it out
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19:45<Eddi|zuHause>why would a setting that says "freight train" apply to trucks?
19:47<Samu>^_^
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22:15<Airwave>I have a station that's becoming somewhat of a bottleneck in my railway system. Any tips on how to improve it?
22:15<Airwave>Screenshot: https://frh.no/station.png
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23:10<Flygon>Airwave: Yes
23:11<Airwave>Flygon: Sweet. It's slightly changed now, by the way.
23:12<Flygon>Airwave: What I'd do is make sure the two incoming and outgoing lines don't conflict
23:12<Airwave>I have another railroad coming in there now. If you refresh the image you'll see it.
23:12<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/openttdwtfcloverleaf.png Rudimentary example here (try not to chuckle. I only noticed the way it looks when I finished constructing x.x)
23:12<Flygon>Your two bottlenecks are the immediate station entrances and exits
23:13<Airwave>What does it look like? Mickey Mouse?
23:13<Flygon>Try not to think on it too mch
23:13<Flygon>Point is...
23:13<Flygon>Have three seperate tracks merging together at the entrance... but with a more complex arrangement
23:13<Flygon>Ditto exit
23:13<Airwave>If you tell me what it looks like I can focus.
23:14<Airwave>Is it Mickey?
23:14<Airwave>Which one is the entrance and which is the exit, by the way?
23:14<Flygon>There's two entrance's, two exits
23:14<Flygon>The south end is the entrance, the north end is the exit
23:14<Flygon>Note how the two lines each are all 100% seperate
23:15<Airwave>Ok. Makes sense.
23:15<Flygon>Until the switch directly next to the station
23:15<Airwave>Right.
23:16<Airwave>How would I apply that to my station? I'm having a little trouble visualizing it.
23:17<Flygon>I'm trying to find an archived screenshot, but can't find a good example
23:17<Airwave>Here's the save game, if that would help: https://frh.no/station.sav
23:21<Flygon>Okay, since I can't find any good examples
23:21<Flygon>I got a bad example
23:21<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/openttdtracklayoutmassive.png
23:21<Flygon>Pretend it's a one-way station
23:21<Flygon>One side is all entrance tracks
23:21<Flygon>One side is all exit tracks
23:22<Flygon>Note how there is no real issues with bottlenecking track capacity
23:22<Flygon>At least, bar trains entering and exiting at the joints
23:22<Airwave>Right. I see.
23:22<Airwave>I'd have to decimate that nearby lake.
23:22<Flygon>You don't have to build a station that big
23:23<Flygon>In fact
23:23<Flygon>Your station is very easy to refit
23:23<Flygon>Lemme get paint.net out
23:23<Airwave>Ok, cool.
23:23<Airwave>Thanks, by the way. I really appreciate the help.
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23:27<Flygon>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2651992/Art/Other/airwavelayout.png
23:27<Airwave>Ah, I see. That's interesting.
23:27<Airwave>Let me try to change it in-game and post a screenshot.
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23:32<Airwave>I'm not that great with signaling though. Which signals do I put where?
23:34<Airwave>Aaaand I just crashed two trains.
23:34<Airwave>Fortunately I saved first.
23:34<Flygon>I only ever use three signals
23:34<Flygon>One way, block, and that signal that's like a one way one but trains can pass from behind it
23:39<Airwave>But which ones do I put where?
23:39<Airwave>I'm trying to work it out, but just crashing trains.
23:39<Flygon>I'm unsure how to explain it x:
23:42<Flygon>Signalling's one of those things that's very hard to explain unless you can explain it live x.x
23:42<Flygon>And even then, I'm a bad teacher
23:42*Flygon prods #openttd, anyone else around?
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23:45<Airwave>Ok, I've made the changes.
23:46<Airwave>Ok, updated station: https://frh.no/station.png
23:48<Airwave>The problem now is that only one train at a time can be in that whole thing right at the entrance of the station, so they end up waiting longer than they need to.
23:50<Airwave>It's still a definite improvement though.
23:50<Flygon>Remove the grey exit signals and replace all the yellow entry signals with One Way Signals
23:51<Flygon>That'll allow any amount of train as per. track capacity to go through
23:51<Airwave>Ok, I'll give that a try.
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23:51<Flygon>And your exit is still a tad bottlenecked
23:52<Airwave>Yeah, I didn't change that.
23:53<Airwave>That signaling change appears to have done the trick.
23:54<Airwave>No more waiting, yet no crashes so far.
23:54*Flygon nod
23:55<Airwave>Awesome. Thank you very much.
---Logclosed Sun May 04 00:00:15 2014