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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-05-08

---Logopened Thu May 08 00:00:03 2014
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01:56<@planetmaker>kiz, it's a relatively new feature and the backward compatible way is to leave it off
01:56<@planetmaker>Though that's not an argument really to switch it on by default and only off for existing saves
01:56<@planetmaker>It just needs one default value
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02:48<Eddi|zuHause>you could easily default to "on" and switch it off in AfterLoadGame for old savegames
02:50<Flygon>Dumb question time: What're the recommended ship sets? I'm using FISH and Sailing Ships
02:51<Flygon>But unsure if those're the recommended choices nowadays
02:51<Eddi|zuHause>there are generally no "recommendations" for NewGRFs
02:52<Flygon>I know
03:02<Supercheese>I hear there's a fork of FISH in the offing
03:02<Flygon>Yeah, there is
03:05<Eddi|zuHause>there is also a never-officially-released update to newships
03:05<@planetmaker>the fork doesn't change much (so far), though
03:05<Flygon>newships, that's the one that doesn't appear in the GRF crawler
03:05<@planetmaker>that's the one with guaranteed unavailability ;)
03:06<Flygon>Yaaaay :P
03:06<Flygon>Anyway
03:06<Flygon>Time to try out a 1705 game for the hell of it
03:06<Flygon>Shame there isn't a town speed slower than Slow but not None
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03:37<supermop>if a newgrf, tram 0.1, defines one tram with one livery, and a new version, tram 0.2 defines exactly the same tram, but with an additional livery, can a game started with tram 0.1 use tram 0.2?
03:45<supermop>or, if tram 0.1 defines three liveries that are all the same (green with yellow stripe lets say), and tram 0.2 defines the three liveries with the same names but different colors, would that work?
03:48<@planetmaker>probably depends a bit on how that is handled by the NewGRF. It can work
03:48<@planetmaker>yet, in all honesty, do not worry too much about backward compatibility
03:49<@planetmaker>the only place really, IMHO, where backward compatibility is slightly important is for the author him- or herself when testing the NewGRF
03:50<@planetmaker>as player you usually never should update your NewGRFs in your games anyway. And you can't without disabling several safety belts
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03:55<supermop>ok
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03:56<@planetmaker>though generally, changing livery is not a game breaker, supermop. Worst which can happen - if it really only is livery - is that the vehicles in existing games look different
03:57<@planetmaker>if it changes stats along with livery, that's a different thing
04:00<supermop>ok
04:01<supermop>if i wanted to suggest an additional vehicle for ogfx+ trains, and drew a sprite for it, how likely would it be that it would be included by whoever maintains that set
04:01<supermop>i don't recall if that is you planetmaker or someone else
04:04<supermop>just a later diesel or so for temperate, maybe a MU for arctic...
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04:08<@planetmaker>I haven't done much with that trainset for ages tbh.
04:09<@planetmaker>I guess vehicles which would well complement the default vehicles, they could well be included
04:09<@planetmaker>They mostly should extend the time frame of the set, though
04:09<@planetmaker>as the default time is quite well covered
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06:17<Samu>good day
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06:29<Samu>music question: which of these formats would you be able to pack in openmsx if there was an alternative to MID? MP3, OGG, M4A, FLAC, APE, WMA
06:30<Samu>question is related about licenses or cross-platform
06:33<peter1139>MOD
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06:35<Samu>i was trying to find a mid to mod converter
06:36<Samu>not gonna be an easy converting task, it needs the mid soundfonts
06:37<Samu>so none of those formats?
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>isn't opus the new hype?
06:51<Samu>what's that? never heard of that before
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06:53<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know much about it either, allegedly it's an improvement over vorbis
06:54<Samu>i foudn it
06:54<Samu>http://www.opus-codec.org/
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06:56<Samu>BSD license
06:56<Samu>is that good or bad?
06:58<TinoDidriksen>BSD is one of the most permissive license.
07:00<peter1139>OPUS is primarly designed as a real-time codec for streaming.
07:04<Samu>some games have audio libraries installed on their directory, is opus something similar? you'd have full control of the audio coming out of the game?
07:13<peter1139>No, it's 'just' a codec.
07:14<peter1139>I don't ever see anything other than Midi being supported, anyway.
07:16<Samu>mid needs to be better supported
07:17<Samu>don't you agree? the volume slider for midi affects the audio volume too
07:19<Samu>if the audio was under control by the game instead, that wouldn't be an issue
07:20<Samu>I was told audio playback is external to the game, not sure if it's related
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: depends on which driver is used. it's probably a wrong function being called/argument being passed
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07:26<Samu>can you say, hey play this mid at this volume at the start of each mid?
07:26<Samu>from openttd?
07:27<Samu>instead of being able to change volume during mid playback, it would start playback with the altered volume
07:28<Samu>shouldn't touch the sound effects volume that way, me thinks
07:30<Samu>not sure why it's a driver issue
07:35<Samu>just wondering: if openttd had an internal "audio mixer" and a way to convert mid to an audio stream that could be handled by that audio mixer, then it could manage to adjust volumes correctly, differentiating it from sound and music
07:36<Samu>then the audio would go out to the driver as one stream
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07:49<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: "driver" is exactly the thing that says "play this at this volume". what else would it be?
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07:52<peter1139>"a way to convert mid to an audio stream" ... feel free to come up with a lightweight good sounding MIDI synth.
07:53<Samu>that's something I'm trying to find
07:54<Flygon>Hint: It's not Roland
07:57<Samu>damn midis... they're hard to work with
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: i think you have a totally wrong opinion on how this works at all
07:58<Samu>yeah, I know, i'm not a programmer, but some one with ideas
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07:59<Eddi|zuHause>ideas are worthless if they don't fit the reality
07:59<supermop>not many good TA22s to be had in victoria
08:00<Samu>reality is, the driver sucks, from what I can gather
08:00<peter1139>There's multiple drivers.
08:01<Samu>midis also play different on different OS'es
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>music sheets also play different on different orchestras
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>midis are exactly that, a music sheet. "play this note with this instrument". how the instrument actually sounds depends on who is playing the instrument
08:03<Samu>my thinking logic was mixing music with sound effect in OpenTTD as "only one stream before it's sent out to the OS/driver". This last part here is what I'm not sure about
08:04<Samu>I don't know if that's what OpenTTD already do
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>and your logic is ill-founded because there are no sounds for music in openttd at all
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>or in any midi file, for that matter
08:04<Samu>i know midis aren't sounds
08:04<Samu>they have to be played
08:05<peter1139>And OpenTTD passes that playing off to the OS.
08:05<Samu>I see, that's where it loses control of the outcome
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>it does not "lose control"
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>it just might be misusing the control it has
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08:08<peter1139>Certainly adjusting music volume doesn't affect sound volume for me.
08:08<Samu>maybe it's a windows issue
08:08<Samu>brb
08:09<Samu>ok, max sound effects volume and max music volume. If I turn down sound effect volume, the music is still playing at the correct volume
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>(why am i even saying anything)
08:10<peter1139>Eddi|zuHause, bored? :D
08:10<Samu>just checking
08:10<Samu>it's the midi volume, it's acting as the global volume meter
08:12<Samu>I'm sorry to ask, my last question I promise, does it also happen in other OS'es?
08:14<peter1139>No idea, music volume is not implemented on Linux.
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08:29<Samu>http://osdl.sourceforge.net/main/documentation/rendering/SDL-audio.html#hardwareissues
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>that has nothing to do with whatever...
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09:05<Samu>http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/fluidsynth/
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09:12<peter1139>Samu, then, find a soundfont that is reasonable quality, isn't massive, and has a GPL-compatible license.
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09:14<Samu>they suggest two http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/fluidsynth/wiki/SoundFont
09:16<Samu> SoundBlaster AWE 32 is where the Original TTD midis sounded best
09:17<peter1139>Neither of those qualify as "not massive"
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09:30<Flygon>Whelp
09:31<Flygon>I should feel proud for hybridizing a bay and through platform two-track railway line in the width of 4 tiles
09:31<Flygon>While having 6 platforms
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09:46<Samu>the smallest I could find
09:47<Samu>smallest soundfont - 3,95 MB (4.146.440 bytes)
09:47<Samu>from synthfont itself
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09:54<Samu>peter1139: it can be compressed to - 2,78 MB (2.917.288 bytes)
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10:18<Xaroth|Work>@calc (10**14)/(1024**4)
10:18<@DorpsGek>Xaroth|Work: 90.9494701773
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10:44<Samu>The windows own soundfont file is 3,28 MB (3.440.660 bytes), but in another format, in .DLS
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11:07<Samu>I think i got what's needed. fluidsynth (1.1 MB) plus a soundfont (the one I found is 3.95 MB) This font is so far playing fine with the midis provided by openmsx
11:08<Samu>5 MB - is that small enough of a compromise?
11:08<Xaroth|Work>for a single song?
11:09<Samu>no, for the ability to have openttd to play midis independently of external libraries or soemthing like that
11:09<Samu>it's for all midis
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: that would still double the size of openttd
11:13<Samu>the other option is to use the current OS's font, but that is pretty much how it is now
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11:15<@planetmaker>not sure... maybe sound fonts could something optional
11:18<peter1139>Bah, I had to move up :(
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>"public service mikado: who moves first, loses"?
11:23<peter1139>So now I have an 8 between a 256 and a 1024...
11:23<peter1139>Le sigh :p
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>that's medium difficulty
11:31<Samu>gotta be honest, they sound better with this font, and it doesnt' cut off the sound at the end of the songs like it currently does
11:31<Samu>the midis
11:32<Samu>the instruments are very much the same, very minor differences, at least to the one provided by windows
11:33<Samu>but reverbs, echo and some other effects are much better
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11:49<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: then write a driver in src/music/
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: or load the sounfont into windows' midi emulator
11:51<Samu>oh man I wish I could help more than this
12:03<Samu>http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-pictures/how-to-change-windows-7s-soundfont-from-gs/fc7f6e06-a8b2-4cfc-8bbc-fd90a2f49d94
12:05<Samu>there is no way to change the synth on windows 7, or if it is possible, it's not going to be easy
12:07<Samu>microsoft answer in a related question was to use a 3rd party synthesizer
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12:19<peter1139>I'm glad you've spent the whole day mulling this over...
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12:20<V453000>:)
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12:29<@planetmaker>nice. The Germany ministry for families and gender equality has been found guilty to violate gender equality regulations when it comes to hiring new employees :D
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>the weirdest part of movements like this is the individual groups fighting each other because they're not fighting hard enough
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12:46<Samu>are you guys serious about the midi issue or not? I'm listening to all midis to see if there's an issue with this font, so far everything's good
12:49<peter1139>We seriously don't care.
12:50<peter1139>It works as well as it needs to, there's no reason to expend time on it, seeing as most people's first action is to turn it all off anyway.
12:51<@planetmaker>might be a vicious circle, though :)
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13:04<Samu>Finished listening, all openmsx midis play fine, minor differences here and there, but they're not distortions
13:04<Samu>but ok, sorry
13:04<Samu>got too much enthused into this
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13:19<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: it's certainly not a bad thing to get enthusiastic over something, but as long as you don't get someone with programming knowledge equally enthusiastic, it's basically wasted energy
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13:30<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: i still think your volume issue is a matter of finding the right line to change
13:36<peter1139>I think it's probably a Windows driver issue.
13:37<peter1139>midiOutSetVolume((HMIDIOUT)_midi.devid, ...)
13:38<peter1139>Pretty umabiguous that it's dealing with only a MIDI device there.
13:40<peter1139>+m
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13:45<Samu>is this of help? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/desktop/dd798480(v=vs.100)
13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26571 /trunk/src/lang (6 files) (2014-05-08 17:45:52 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
13:46<@DorpsGek>finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
13:46<@DorpsGek>hungarian - 1 changes by Brumi
13:46<@DorpsGek>italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
13:46<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 4 changes by Stabilitronas
13:46<@DorpsGek>slovak - 2 changes by Milsa
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13:48<Eddi|zuHause>peter1139: my uneducated guess is that it's muxed in the wrong place
13:49<peter1139>It's mixed by the OS/drivers and we have no control over it.
13:49<peter1139>If they get it wrong, that's not our fault.
13:49<peter1139>I don't see many bug reports from everyone having this problem.
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>maybe the midi emulator is "implementing" volume change by passing it on to the next higher volume filter
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>and at that point it's already muxed the audio streams
13:51<peter1139>What does that have to do with us?
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13:54<Wolf01>hi hi
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13:54<Eddi|zuHause>you should know what the programs do that you're interfacing with :p
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13:58<@Alberth>hi hi
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14:01<peter1139>And we should know how any particular combination of hardware, OS, and drivers behave oddly?
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>yes
14:06<peter1139>Cool
14:10<Samu>most audio hardware out there is realtek nowadays
14:13<Samu>if the problem is the driver, i can try emailing realtek, but i have no idea how to expose the problem to them
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14:18<@Alberth>hai
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14:20<andythenorth>lo bob
14:23<George>[22:00:51] Alberth has no thoughts [22:01:55] planetmaker had none so far either - and what to do? Who can make a decision?
14:26<andythenorth>lskynl: so are you going to update the docs for Redfish? o_O http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/redfish/push/LATEST/docs/html/get_started.html
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14:38<Samu>Give me a bit of guidance, how to approach realtek about the changing volume issue. mailto:pctech@realtek.com
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: i doubt the issue is in their code
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: it's more likely in windows' midi emulator
14:41<Samu>i've been searching the microsoft forums, they removed the midi device selection from the sound control pannel, but it's still possible to change the device
14:41<Samu>hacking into the registry
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>what's that meant to solve?
14:42<Samu>to see if there was a way to change volume for midi only, and not make it act like it's a global volume
14:43<Samu>dont know the technical terms, I know there's commands you send to the device driver that will then carry on
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14:44<Samu>the emulator should be the device
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14:45<Samu>i also wonder if there's still a midi volume controler after all
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14:59<Samu>I give up
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15:29<andythenorth>I had three stupid GS ideas. I’ve forgotten them :(
15:32<andythenorth>one was a variation on “Win Now” button
15:32<andythenorth>I think I was going to make it random whether you won or lost :P
15:33<andythenorth>also I thought of a way for towns to really screw with you, but don’t remember how :P
15:34<Samu>"paint"-shop image: http://i.imgur.com/duTYTWE.png
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>next episode of "useless statistics that nobody ever asked for"?
15:36<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that might be a good GS actually
15:36<andythenorth>‘achieve arbitrary goals measured by pointless statistics'
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i thought "randomly change volume"
15:37<andythenorth>also good
15:37*andythenorth considers a new version of NoCarGoal
15:37<andythenorth>but you don’t get told the target, you have to guess
15:37<andythenorth>and the feedback is ‘cold, warm, warmer’ etc
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i've played a card game called "shadow hunter" where you're good or evil, and you don't know which other person is on your side
15:39<andythenorth>ha
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>and to mix it up there are neutral people who only fight for themselves
15:42*andythenorth considers Easter Egg GS
15:42<andythenorth>you get told there are 10 eggs
15:42<andythenorth>eggs are unlocked by connecting stuff
15:43<andythenorth>probably by providing service to a town or industry
15:43<andythenorth>Easter Egg Hunt *
15:43<andythenorth>my kids are obsessed with easter egg hunts, hours of free entertainment
15:44<pthagnar>Frimpthatton council announces a subsidy for mystery service from Undisclosed Location to Who Knows Where?
15:47<@planetmaker>sounds fun actually
15:47<@planetmaker>not hero quest. But transport quest
15:47<@planetmaker>treasure hunt à la OpenTTD :)
15:47<@planetmaker>find the secret subsidy and win a 100x bonus for 3 years on the route
15:52<andythenorth>hmm
15:52*andythenorth starts IE7
15:52<andythenorth>let’s see how sad I’m going to be
15:53<andythenorth>quite sad
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15:56<@planetmaker>why would you start that ancient one?
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16:01<@Alberth>to feel sad?
16:03<andythenorth>because browser usage stats require me to support it :|
16:10<andythenorth>10% :|
16:11<@planetmaker>some fossils die hard. But worth to care so much?
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16:14<andythenorth>no choice :P
16:14<andythenorth>contractual
16:14<@planetmaker>bah, sucks
16:15<Samu>what are you doing with IE7?
16:15<andythenorth>mostly I am watching how broken things are
16:15<@planetmaker>so it's not payment but pain and suffering money
16:15<andythenorth>then filing them under ‘level 2 support: don’t fix minor visual defects’
16:15<andythenorth>planetmaker: yes
16:15<Samu>but why 7 if there's 11
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16:16<andythenorth>because customers
16:16<Samu>and what is it that youre doing, a homepage?
16:16<andythenorth>not exactly
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16:45<Eddi|zuHause>"Band collects 20000 dollar from spotify for silent album 'sleepify'"
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16:57<peter1139>Old
17:02<Wolf01>'night all
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17:04<@planetmaker>good night
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17:46<Samu>statistics! http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_explorer.asp
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17:48<Xaroth|Work>Samu: that's hardly representative.. as it's just that site's stats.
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17:49<Xaroth|Work>now if that was google's stats, then it'd hold some ground, but w3schools...
17:50<Samu>some other: http://gs.statcounter.com/
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17:53<Samu>http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php
17:55<Samu>i dont think ie 7 is used all that much http://www.netmarketshare.com/browser-market-share.aspx?qprid=2&qpcustomd=0
17:57<Xaroth|Work>Samu: I'm pretty sure most web developers agree that IE7 (and most of IE, for that matter) can die a slow, fiery death.. but if your contract tells you that it needs to support it, then support it you will
17:58<Samu>when i had windows xp, and i had it for quite a long time
17:58<Samu>the last supported IE browser is 8
17:59<Xaroth|Work>You'd be amazed how many systems still run XP
17:59<Samu>they should be using IE 8 at least
18:00<Samu>microsoft forces that update
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18:00<frosch123>nah, they are probably behind a firewall
18:00<frosch123>and the admins block all dubious websites
18:00<frosch123>including some of your own company
18:02<frosch123>(like when subsidy complains to the ceo that they do not want to link to the website of another subsidy, because it is constantly infested with malware, and they do not want to send their customers there)
18:03<Xaroth|Work>heh
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18:04<frosch123>"if you return home from a business trip to that subsidy, and hand over your notebook immediately for cleaning, we will kill you - very slowly"
18:05<frosch123>+do not
18:11<Xaroth|Work>gheh
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18:22<+glx>most xp users were still on IE6 I think
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18:24<+glx>(and the black transparent background for png)
18:25<frosch123>night
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18:41<Samu>just throwing a random idea, have the full load indicator as a progress bar in the vehicle window title
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18:44<Samu>let me paint-shop the idea to better describe what I mean
18:53<Samu>here's how it looks like https://rupavq.dm2302.livefilestore.com/y2peHrWpSn9qJT4BIeAeHGDfQGsG6E9KaBmZ_6sU1SaZnWAwnbCu72lwmmifETGa-htLr-968uov4US0OtJzeFp1tA7D-4SkR-0qhJG2VSYtRI/vehicle%20window%20title%20load%20progress%20pain-shop%27ed.png?psid=1
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19:54<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: you'll find it way easier to implement "Loading (x%)" as the status line
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20:42<Samu>do you mean have the load % bar at the status line instead of window title?
20:44<Samu>it was supposed to be a quick way to see how much is loaded while traveling, that's the difference - no need to head into the details sub-window
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20:58<DabuYu>Samu: instead of the complete window title color, how about a little bar similar as how is done in the stations list?
20:58<DabuYu>http://wiki.openttd.org/images/c/ce/StationList.png
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20:59<DabuYu>I like the idea
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