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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-05-09

---Logopened Fri May 09 00:00:05 2014
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00:16<Flygon>Feels so weird having a 17xx game...
00:16<Flygon>No trains makes for a waaaaay different bulk freight game
00:16<Flygon>So much river focus!
00:24<Supercheese>No wagonways?
00:24<Supercheese>I figure those would be almost mandatory in the 1700s
00:26<Supercheese>Also, I coded a Montgolfier balloon, you could have your 18th century aircraft travel booming :P
00:26<Supercheese>Although I don't think I ever released that particular .grf
00:27<Flygon>:P
00:27<Flygon>No wagonways
00:27<Flygon>Not the right GRFs installed, sorry :P
00:27<Flygon>As appealing as horses as locomotives is :P
00:33<Flygon>Oh, eer
00:33<Flygon>You mean road based ones, don'tcha
00:33<Flygon>Issue with that is, is low capacity with eGRVTS x.x
00:33<Supercheese>No, I meant railtype
00:33<Supercheese>Wagonway grf
00:34<Flygon>Ah, gotcha
00:34<Supercheese>although IIRC it had some broken stats
00:34<Supercheese>i.e. horses would never go above 1 mph
00:34<Supercheese>unless you had Original accel model
00:34<Flygon>That's a bit of a dealbreaker
00:38<Supercheese>yeah it was issueful
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06:32<Flygon>Whelp
06:32<Flygon>More ships than RVs
06:32<Flygon>The year is 1775
06:32<Flygon>Cannot WAIT for trains
06:36<peter1139>Got horse & cart too?
06:37<Flygon>peter1139: Yeah
06:37<Flygon>But it's not good enough
06:37<Flygon>Low loads
06:37<peter1139>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dockworkers_in_Cap-Haitien.jpg
06:38<Flygon>eGRVTS doesn't consider horses as strong as humans
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07:47<andythenorth>bad andythenorth
07:48<peter1139>Yes
07:48<andythenorth>what are the criteria by which patches are selected for inclusion in trunk?
07:48<andythenorth>is there voting?
07:48<andythenorth>is there a committee?
07:48<andythenorth>are there minutes?
07:48<andythenorth>can I submit a memorandum?
07:51<peter1139>Does it interest a dev?
07:51<peter1139>It's certainly no democracy.
07:52<Xaroth|Work>it involves lots of bribery
07:52<Xaroth|Work>or smooth talking
07:53<peter1139>Obviously a patch for a bugfix is fairly likely.
07:55<Flygon>Xaroth: Now, now, this isn't FA
07:56<Xaroth|Work>Flygon: FA?
07:56<andythenorth>peter1139: obviously we prioritise including a patch if someone repetitively whines rudely about it in the forums, including in other unrelated threads?
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>i've had patches sit around idly for a year and then suddenly being commited with no warning
07:56<andythenorth>I mean it’s not a democracy, but acting like a twat definitely increases the chance, right?
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i can't tell if you're being sarcastic
07:57<Flygon>Xaroth: Long story
07:57<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause I need an emoticon :P
07:58<Xaroth|Work>Flygon: no tl;dr version?
07:58<Flygon>Nope
07:58<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: if you were forced to gamble €5000 on it, do you think I am being sarcastic? You could get Bayesian about it :P
07:58<Flygon>tl;dr furries
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08:25<peter1139>Well sometimes acting like a twat gets you commit rights...
08:25<peter1139>Oh, he left.
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09:06<Eddi|zuHause>how do you edit .lnk files in wine?
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10:25<Samu>which settings for cargo distribution should I try?
10:25<Samu>symetric, asymetric?
10:26<Samu>im gonna host a server with this
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12:45<Samu>What is .lnk file? The LNK file extension is used for files that represent Windows shortcut to a program installed on computer.
12:47<peter1139>...
12:48<Samu>yeah, 4 hours late answer, sorry
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12:54<Samu>asymmetric cargo dist, anybody wants to join? http://www.openttd.org/en/server/80714
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12:57<peter1139>He wasn't asking what a .lnk file was...
12:58<Phreeze>what's a lnk file ?
12:58*Phreeze 's out
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13:00<Samu>edit a .lnk file?
13:00<Samu>it's a shortcut, right-click then properties
13:00<Phreeze>^^
13:01<Phreeze>who was asking btw ?
13:01<Samu>it was zuHause
13:01<Phreeze>eddi ? i'm sure he knows what it is
13:01<Phreeze>restarting pc...
13:01<Samu>14:06] <Eddi|zuHause> how do you edit .lnk files in wine?
13:02<Phreeze>in WINE <--
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13:02<Samu>isn't that windows running on linux?
13:02<@planetmaker>not exactly
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>well obviously i did try right-clicking...
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>didn't work
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13:03<Phreeze>re
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>said something like "no property window for this file type"
13:04<Rubidium>can't wine run a real explorer?
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>dunno, only tried wine's explorer
13:05<Phreeze>wines explorer is weird
13:05<Samu>on windows those files are special
13:05<Phreeze>it's shit anyway,they could improve the interface so much, but they fail
13:05<Phreeze>for years now
13:05<Samu>their properties won't show the file details, but it edits it
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>yes. it's shit. but i guess nobody ever uses it anyway
13:11<Samu>http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/vstudio/pt-BR/9bd371ba-6bc3-493c-a5df-2f15fa5fa5c7/how-to-get-the-actual-path-with-lnk-file?forum=vcgeneral
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13:12<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: might editting the file as UTF-16 in a text editor work? Or does that break too much?
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13:13<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: there's binary stuff in there
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i tried a hex editor but it didn't work as intended
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>and i'm too lazy to research the file format
13:14<@planetmaker>that might be a problem in this case :)
13:17<Samu>http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/vstudio/pt-BR/22a54517-ed9c-41ce-a308-d5df78ccea70/editing-a-windows-shortcut-file?forum=netfxbcl
13:17<Samu>this?
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13:19<Samu>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_shortcut#Microsoft_Windows
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26572 /trunk/src/lang (4 files in 2 dirs) (2014-05-09 17:45:28 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>japanese - 31 changes by guppy
13:45<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 3 changes by Stabilitronas
13:45<@DorpsGek>persian - 5 changes by 100ra
13:45<@DorpsGek>slovak - 6 changes by Milsa
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13:54<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i was expecing there was already a tool for it
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14:27<andythenorth>o/
14:27<@planetmaker>\o
14:27<andythenorth>where is cake?
14:30<@Alberth>o/
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14:31<Samu>wow i just installed dosbox, it features a nice image scaler
14:33<@planetmaker>openttd also has an in-built image scaler ;)
14:34<@Alberth>arhg, no transport for paper :(
14:34<@Alberth>still with this broken newgrf combination
14:34<@planetmaker>oi :(
14:35<@Alberth>how am I ever going to win from nocargoal if it cheats like that :p
14:39<Samu>side by side, TTDLX scaled vs OpenTTD: https://rupavq.dm2303.livefilestore.com/y2p44HYNf7NrKYjobzztmLjQNodj32qcPxJpRhw5fUbAkRXajwMhqimIxcCZi3QRBcqhbpvzkBumnQhZ7qx5wW6SwK0Qs_YO0-q7I9TDEYipgU/TTDLX%20on%20DosBox%20image%20scaler.png?psid=1
14:40*planetmaker discovers diff.showfunc = True
14:41<Samu>that's the kind of scaler that would rock on OpenTTD
14:43<andythenorth>Alberth: add newgrfs to your running game? o_O
14:44<@planetmaker>what trainset do you use, Alberth ?
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14:45<@Alberth>still the same setup, opengfx+industries and default trains
14:46<@Alberth>newgrf setups have a way of sticking around :p
14:47<andythenorth>have I missed anything on the internet?
14:47<andythenorth>I _think_ I’ve seen it all
14:47<andythenorth>which means…time for work
14:48<andythenorth>nothing useful in forums
14:48<Samu>can you ask the dosbox guys to use their scaler on openttd?
14:48<Samu>if it's possible at all
14:49<Phreeze>i want the TTO interface gfx
14:50<Phreeze>always preferred them to the flat DX design
14:50<Phreeze>samu: they use different scalers, as e.g the snes emulators do too
14:50<Phreeze>like supersai, etc
14:51<Samu>Possible values: none, normal2x, normal3x, advmame2x, advmame3x, advinterp2x, advinterp3x, hq2x, hq3x, 2xsai, super2xsai, supereagle, tv2x, tv3x, rgb2x, rgb3x, scan2x, scan3x.
14:51<Samu>i put hq3x
14:52<Phreeze>the hq are the best ojnes
14:52<Phreeze>years ago, with a pentium2 400, you couldnt chose those^^
14:52<Phreeze>cpu wasnt good enough xD
14:53<andythenorth>why don’t you just use the original base set?
14:53<@planetmaker>Alberth, opengfx+industries w/o a trainset can end up badly... as you discovered. Some cargoes may be moved around
14:53<@planetmaker>thus default vehicles might fail to provide support for all
14:53<@Alberth>planetmaker: it does, both in temperate and in arctic :p
14:54<@Alberth>I thought I got rid of the broken setup, but apparently not
14:54*Alberth wonders to code a warning message for it
14:55<Phreeze>base set doesnt modify those windows andy
14:56<@planetmaker>that's part of newgrf utopia, Alberth :)
14:57<@planetmaker>of the possible utopia, though
14:57<andythenorth>Phreeze: oh you mean the window chrome? Not the icons?
14:57<@Alberth>well, /me needs it now :p
14:58<Phreeze>the windows that pop up if you follow a train etc
14:58<Phreeze>http://theodor.lauppert.ws/games/s/screen1/transport_tycoon.png
14:58<Phreeze>those
15:08<andythenorth>Alberth: playing ottd to get GS ideas? o_O
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15:09<@Alberth>no, mostly because I don't know what to code next
15:10<@Alberth>but I was thinking about making subsidies possible
15:10<@Alberth>ie transport of cargo X from Y to Z
15:10<@Alberth>don't think you can do that yet
15:13<Samu>oh, do you want ideas?
15:14<@Alberth>if you also provide an implementation, sure
15:14<Samu>implementation?
15:17<Samu>a scaler
15:18<@Alberth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implementation
15:18<@Alberth>why would you want to scale graphics? it looks bad
15:19<Samu>doesn't look too bad
15:19<Samu>might look blurry at first, but it's easy to get used to
15:19<Samu>and it's just much better for my eyes
15:20<@planetmaker>Alberth, OpenTTD does that all the time when people use 2x and 4x zoom
15:21<Samu>did you see the printscreen i posted?
15:21<Samu>it looked great
15:21<@Alberth>planetmaker: silly people :p
15:21<@planetmaker>:D
15:21<@Alberth>buying a large screen, and then using 2x / 4x zoom :p
15:21<Samu>that zoom doesn't zoom buttons or mouse cursor
15:21<@planetmaker>Samu, the two screens don' show the same scene. Thus it's an ill comparison
15:22<@planetmaker>Alberth, yes, I confess guilty :P
15:22<@Alberth>Samu: install big gui newgrf
15:22<@planetmaker>(though I don't need the big gui for that really)
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15:40<__ln___>http://tylervigen.com/view_correlation?id=1458
15:41<@Alberth>lol
15:44<peter1139>Pom te pom...
15:44<peter1139>Re-scaling...
15:45<peter1139>I did implement a scaling algorithm once, but it looked shitty.
15:46<peter1139>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/ez9.png
15:46<peter1139>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/ez10real.png
15:50<pthagnar>i like those rescaling algorithms
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15:52<pthagnar>that is a little weird though
15:55<Samu>sorry, had to do something afk. Isn't it preferrible a scaler to the entire program, not parts of it?
15:55<Samu>is it difficult to implement?
15:56<pthagnar>ez10real is quite good though
15:57<pthagnar>better at 75% scale, though
15:57<andythenorth>I like to call it ‘eye-breaking pseudo watercolour blur’
15:58<Samu>what do you call the window where openttd puts all visual content? framebuffer?
16:01<@Alberth>a window?
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16:02<Samu>yeah... I guess
16:05<Samu>the big gui newgrf doesn't have some resized icons, it shows the small version instead
16:05<Taede>main viewport?
16:06<Taede>evening
16:06<Samu>the entire view, not just the world
16:06<Samu>icons, text, buttons, cursor, windows sizes
16:07<Samu>the goal list button doesn't have a big version
16:08<@Alberth>feel free to make and submit one
16:09<Samu>why?
16:10<@planetmaker>obviously so that the biggui newgrf then can ship with big versions of those buttons, too?
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16:11<Samu>i don't like the biggui. if it could also attempt to resize text and much of the rest, it would be sensible to use it
16:11<Samu>but the way it is right now, only part is resized :/
16:12<peter1139>Well you can set the text size yourself...
16:12<Samu>could the newgrf do that as well?
16:12<peter1139>No, NewGRF cannot set your font size.
16:13<@planetmaker>oh, they actually could
16:13<@planetmaker>but might look funky
16:13<Samu>some dropdown items with the biggui are misplaced
16:13<@planetmaker>some error reports are vague
16:13<Samu>ok
16:15<Samu>http://imgur.com/hxEQozG
16:15<Samu>sort by ..., it is missing the arrow
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16:16<Samu>the new dot button between minimize and X is small
16:16<Samu>rather out of propotions text and window sizes
16:17<@Alberth>so fix your font?
16:17<Samu>I don't like it, I think it's not a good idea to scale individual parts
16:17<Samu>but scale the whole thing
16:17<@Alberth>make a "set font" patch for all platforms that we have?
16:17<@Alberth>we'd like that
16:18<@Alberth>as well as a *whole* lot of users
16:19<Samu>why not scale it like dosbox do?
16:20<@Alberth>looks *very* bad
16:20<@Alberth>all graphic artists will be very unhappy
16:21<Samu>it wouldn't be that bad per se... main issue is to maintain aspect ratio on higher resolution screens
16:22<@Alberth>take a high resolution image, scalle it down by a factor 4 horizontal and vertical, and save it
16:22<@Alberth>take the scaled down image, scale it up by a factor 4 horizontal and vertical
16:22<@Alberth>compare original and scaled versions
16:23<Samu>ah, you mean the zoom feature
16:24<@Alberth>how is scale not zoom?
16:24<@Alberth>you cannot reconstruct original quality with 1/16 of the original infomation
16:25<Samu>there's no need to scale by that much
16:25<@Alberth>likewise, graphic artists will be disgusted if you scale their sprites
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>the MiniIN had several scaling functions
16:25<Samu>if 640x480 is default res for openttd, a x2 size would be 1280x960 - it's enough for many displays
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>but it was on a whole-screen basis, while the extra zoom would need it on a per-sprite basis (which causes issues at borders)
16:26<@Alberth>Samu: 2x zoom is still only 1/4th of the information
16:26<Samu>even the zoom would be scalled, that's something I'd happy to live with
16:26<Samu>I don't see it as a problem
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>that sentence makes no sense
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16:28<Samu>alberth did you see my screenshot?
16:29<Samu>why do you hate it? yes, there's blurr, that's not a big of an issue as you make it sound, especially when everythign is sized to the right aspect ratio
16:30*Rubidium wonders what the "scale everything up by a factor 2" is going to yield. It will at least reduce the sharpness of full zoom in sprites at the "current" zoom in level
16:30<Rubidium>after all, you get the 2x zoom sprites, which you scale up with a factor 2 instead of showing the 4x zoom sprites
16:31<@Alberth>tell the graphic artists that, they painstakingly decide the colour of each pixel, and you simply make it all blurry, so you cannot seem the colour of each pixel any more
16:31<@Alberth>s/seem/see/
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16:32<Samu>it would be a game option, not a newgrf option
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16:33<Samu>https://rupavq.dm2303.livefilestore.com/y2p44HYNf7NrKYjobzztmLjQNodj32qcPxJpRhw5fUbAkRXajwMhqimIxcCZi3QRBcqhbpvzkBumnQhZ7qx5wW6SwK0Qs_YO0-q7I9TDEYipgU/TTDLX%20on%20DosBox%20image%20scaler.png?psid=1
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>even the text is blurry
16:33<Samu>yes, that's fine with me, at least I can read it
16:34<Rubidium>but... why not use the 2x zoom sprites instead of blowing up the 1x zoom sprites?
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>i can't
16:34<Samu>that dosbox is scaling the original to 1280x960, it's exactly x2
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>Samu: we had that option 5 years ago, and removed it
16:35<Samu>awww why?
16:36<Rubidium>because it was only for one platform
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>because it was stupid, badly implemented, incompatible with some stuff and not supported on all platforms
16:36<Samu>how come? dosbox is multi-platform i believe
16:37<Rubidium>because nobody wrote the code for that one platform where it was implemented to the other platforms
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>one frequent complaint was that people wanted separate scaling for GUI sprites and for map sprites
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>where for the map sprites we now have it in the form of extra zoom levels
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>and for the gui sprites we have it in the form of "big gui" newgrf
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>what's missing is font scaling
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>and a base set which covers all the zoom levels
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>and a GUI for static newgrfs
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>... and ...
16:40<@planetmaker>GUI should eventually get an ingame setting for size. As should font (though you can have the latter via cfg already)
16:40<@Alberth>(10:39:47 PM) Eddi|zuHause: and a base set which covers all the zoom levels <-- zbase?
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: never actually used that, but it always seemed off style-wise
16:41<@Alberth>ah, it needs an extra condition, "usable for Eddi" :)
16:41<@planetmaker>:P
16:42<@Alberth>I don't like it either btw
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>but i don't like opengfx in the first place
16:42<Samu>awww
16:43<Samu>zbase is very nice, but vehicles still move around sprite-based, not fluid movements
16:43<Samu>it's a bit strange to look at it
16:43<Samu>but it's very detailed
16:44-!-Mek_ is now known as Mek
16:45<@Alberth>zbase is too flat, it looks too computer-generated to me
16:46<@Alberth>maybe the effort by lukasz1985 will give a nice result
16:46<Samu>zbase looks really good, with that I mean the graphical details
16:46<Samu>if looking at a static image from zbase, it's great
16:46<Samu>then you start seeing the vehicles move and it's alll.... meh
16:47<@Alberth>ever compared the original base set and zbase (the same picture at the same size)?
16:48<@Alberth>zbase is very much lacking in the fine details
16:48<@Alberth>it's all flat surfaces
16:50<Samu>lacks the 3D aspect
16:50<Samu>it's isometric
16:50<Phreeze>it's too plastic for me
16:50<Phreeze>that western style looks awesome, but the author is "away" or so !?
16:52<@Alberth>I don't think anything was ever released
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>only a few teaser screenshots/videos
16:53<Phreeze>but they look really awesome
16:53<Phreeze>it's really a pity :(
16:54<@planetmaker>yeah, he kinda left, or so it seems
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGUnjnNEfGE
16:54<@planetmaker>I do have the source for the houses, but...
16:54<Phreeze>did he make ALL the gfx himself ???
16:54<@planetmaker>... not exactly the right to release it
16:55<@planetmaker>yes
16:55<Phreeze>they look so perfect
16:55<Phreeze>BadBrett1 year agoin reply to Daniel Dorotík
16:55<Phreeze>It's just me. Hopefully we'll see some kind of release before the end of the year. :-)
16:55<Phreeze>lol
16:55<Phreeze>"this year" is alwas relative ^^
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16:59<Rubidium>also depends on your "centre" that determines the length of a year
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>pherhaps he meant a martian year
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17:00<Rubidium>after all, a year is the amount of time needed to perform one rotation of one celestial body around another celestial body
17:01<Phreeze>Smartass :D
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>like a "solar" year?
17:02<Rubidium>we know that one must be earth, but maybe the other isn't the solar system centre, but the galactic centre
17:02<Rubidium>in which case a year becomes quite long ;)
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17:05<Phreeze>mustnt be earth
17:06<Phreeze>if you take mars as the centre, an earth-year is more (or less..dont know)
17:08<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, 'solar year' actually is a well-defined term
17:09<Rubidium>... but non-constant term
17:11<@planetmaker>tropical (or solar) year is actually quite constant. Defining an earth year with a different centre than the Sun will become... a challange
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17:31<andythenorth>night
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17:38<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i meant as in the sun revolving around its next higher center of gravity
17:39<@planetmaker>that's the galactic year
17:40<@planetmaker>which is quite harder to put a number on, but it's in the order of 220 Myr
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19:05<Samu>hey, ttdx company name generator is funny
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19:07<Samu>do you have a list of the generated names by TTDX?
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---Logclosed Sat May 10 00:00:07 2014