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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-05-21

---Logopened Wed May 21 00:00:26 2014
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07:24<__ln___>offtopic: can this be correct: "Zugangsgruppen Anzahl" (original text "Access group count")?
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>needs more context
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>at least the grammar is totally off
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>and it's ambiguous whether you count the groups or the members of the group
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>in other topics: why does the wahl-o-mat always tell me things i already know?
07:28<__ln___>the meaning of the english one is "the number of access groups"
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>then i'd suggest "Anzahl {der|an} Zugangsgruppen"
07:31<__ln___>yeah, reversing the word order is what i would have thought
07:32-!-yorick [~yorick@ip51cd0513.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd
07:33<__ln___>thanks
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>other alternative is "Zugangsgruppenanzahl" or possibly "Zugangsgruppen-Anzahl" but that keeps the disambiguity
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11:33<rubenwardy>Is it possible to space trains out equally in 1.4? Like if there are two trains on a track, they should be half the length of the track away from each other, not one behind enougher.
11:35<@planetmaker>yes
11:35<peter1139>timetabling!
11:35<Pinkbeast>Autoseparation, on the other hand, is still doom.
11:36<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttd.org/Timetable
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11:39<@Alberth>hmm, why can't I select a preset when saving one?
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11:47<@planetmaker>presets are just very crudely handles so far :)
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11:54<rubenwardy>Are there any leaderboards for # of trains, # of road vechiles, etc? Size of company?
11:57<@Alberth>it's pretty much meaningless, I think; you can just buy max #vehicles and never use them, for example
11:59<@Alberth>also, how do you measure size of a company?
11:59<Pinkbeast>Capital value?
11:59<@planetmaker>yeah. Depends on the time you spent playing, on the NewGRFs, on the settings, on the start time...
12:00<Pinkbeast>Oh, no, I see what you're asking.
12:00<@Alberth>buy max #aircraft, and fly from one end to the other, and wait long enough for the amount of needed money?
12:00<@planetmaker>sounds like a good money-making plan ^
12:01<rubenwardy>number of vechiles that make over £100 of profit?
12:01<@Alberth>there are people that play it competitively
12:01<Pinkbeast>% of total cargo generated moved by this company might be a slightly more meaningful metric
12:01<@Alberth>usually at a server in MP
12:02<Pinkbeast>Profit over L100 - deliberately overstock a route so each vehicle _just_ exceeds running costs. Quite an artificial behaviour. :-)
12:02<@planetmaker>rubenwardy, and then it depends heavily on the map size, too.
12:02<@Alberth>Pinkbeast: make an industry set that allows 1 industry at 100% station rate, done
12:02<@planetmaker>easy on a 4k ^2 map. Terribly difficult on a 64^2 map
12:02<@planetmaker>Alberth, like FIRS?
12:02<@Alberth>no 1 industry, not 1 industry type :)
12:03<@planetmaker>:)
12:03<@Alberth>s/no /no, /
12:03<@planetmaker>not sure that's possible. But maybe
12:03<Pinkbeast>Alberth: Aha, you're thinking of an "all games" leaderboard, I'm thinking of meaningful comparisons between companies in the same game. My mistake.
12:04<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast, I also understood "all-time leaderboard". Ingame, of course. It exists. And GS can define their own
12:04<@Alberth>Pinkbeast: then it's more difficult to win :)
12:04<@planetmaker>some communities around certain servers all have their own leaderboards.
12:05<@planetmaker>They probably are somewhat comparable as they then compare basically games with the same settings
12:06<@planetmaker>I should thank andy for the links to the pre-configured windows VMs. Makes live very easy
12:07<@Alberth>it could be fun to set up a game, and let people play for a number of years, and then have them post the results, so you can compare them
12:07<@Alberth>planetmaker: :o useful :)
12:07<@planetmaker>that actually is fun, Alberth :)
12:07<@planetmaker>"we" once did that as a competition... many good results we got for the challenge created
12:09<@planetmaker>the VMs are all a windows evaluation license - but who cares for test VMs which you can reset infinitely often to any savepoint you can make? :)
12:09<peter1139>Heh
12:09<@planetmaker>they actually advise to do that
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12:22<Eddi|zuHause>and when you start them up you fetch patches for hours before you can use it?
12:23<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, no, MS supplies them well-patched
12:26<@planetmaker>though they target people who use them to test websites with various IE versions
12:26<@planetmaker>(and windows versions)
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12:50<peter1139>,l.po;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;[''''''''''''7'#~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~???***8888888kkkooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
12:50<LordAro>yes.
12:56<Phreeze>someone vacuumed his keyboard
12:59<rubenwardy>Looks like brainf__k
12:59<rubenwardy>{{{}}}}((({[[[](})}))})))
12:59<rubenwardy>Looks like brainf_ck
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>i think you meant to say brainfuck
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13:02<Eddi|zuHause>maybe your keyboard is broken
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13:07<LordAro>glorious: http://imgur.com/6KFR4DQ,pjV5Rei
13:08<rubenwardy>;_;
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26603 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2014-05-21 17:45:38 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>dutch - 1 changes by habell
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 3 changes by telk5093
13:45<@DorpsGek>luxembourgish - 76 changes by Phreeze
13:45<@DorpsGek>polish - 20 changes by Kilian
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13:50<Wolf01>hi hi
13:51<Phreeze>hi ho
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14:05<frosch123>any bored translators?
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14:06<@planetmaker>Phreeze, was a bored translator yesterday
14:07<Wolf01>I'm bored, but not a translator
14:07<@planetmaker>sign-up now and become a bored translator :D
14:07<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26604 /trunk/src (3 files in 3 dirs) (2014-05-21 18:07:30 UTC)
14:07<@DorpsGek>-Add: Most of the mapgen settings to advances settings window.
14:07<@planetmaker>:DD
14:08<Wolf01>;)
14:08<LordAro>:o
14:09<frosch123>it's not as big as it sounds
14:09<@planetmaker>but as nice
14:09<frosch123>but 16 new strings, and 1 for validation
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14:17<peter1139>Soon... remove uncommonly used advanced mapgen settings...
14:18<frosch123>nah, i already did that
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14:18<frosch123>did you miss it?
14:18<andythenorth>no
14:18<andythenorth>I saw it
14:18<andythenorth>what was it though?
14:19<LordAro>i..er.. https://github.com/IntelOrca/OpenRCT2/blob/master/lodepng/lodepng.c#L61
14:19<frosch123>paid by lines of code?
14:21<LordAro>clearlu
14:22<andythenorth>:o
14:22<andythenorth>mapgen moved?
14:22<frosch123>no, duplicated
14:22<andythenorth>ho
14:22<andythenorth>:P
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14:23<frosch123>LordAro: what's that? why is there a .exe in the repository?
14:24<LordAro>nasty openrct2
14:24<LordAro>reverse engineering the binary
14:24<frosch123>you got compettion?
14:24<LordAro>yeah :L
14:24<andythenorth>compile faster
14:25*andythenorth drums fingers
14:25<andythenorth>I need a faster one
14:25<andythenorth>ha ha @ frosch123
14:25<andythenorth>finally the advanced settings are getting good :)
14:25<frosch123>why?
14:26<andythenorth>just because it’s such an improvement :)
14:26<andythenorth>should I draw us some not-quite-very-good icons for each section?
14:26<andythenorth>then we could do one of those big icon-driven preference panels
14:27<andythenorth>I haven’t compiled for a while, so some of this might not be new
14:27<@planetmaker>o/ andythenorth :)
14:28<@planetmaker>thanks again for the hint to the pre-fab VMs
14:28<andythenorth>np
14:28<andythenorth>MS doing something really useful for once
14:30<@planetmaker>andythenorth, what we (IMHO) need is an idea how to better streamline the workflow for new map generation
14:31<andythenorth>we had some before
14:31<andythenorth>there were pictures
14:31<@planetmaker>so that I don't have to click every frigging button in the main menu. yeah...
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14:31<@planetmaker>but none of that was really satisfactory so far. afair
14:31*andythenorth looks
14:32<@planetmaker>we had there a tab-like thingy
14:32<@planetmaker>but we stopped when it came to integration of newgrfs + settings
14:32<@planetmaker>just opening those as sub-windows might work though. Even when it doesn't look genious
14:32<frosch123>well, back then there were 5 settings windows, with a bit of luck we can get to 3 :)
14:33<@planetmaker>:)
14:33*andythenorth looks
14:33<@planetmaker>I can give you a bookmark: /home/planetmaker/brain/memory/feeble/newgui :P
14:34<andythenorth>here’s what I had https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/6135/gui.zip
14:35<andythenorth>there was some world gen stuff somewhere too
14:35<frosch123>planetmaker: there are screenshots on the wiki
14:35<andythenorth>linky?
14:36<frosch123>https://wiki.openttd.org/GUI_re-arrangement#Map_settings
14:36<andythenorth>oh yeah that
14:36<andythenorth>it’s ugly
14:36<andythenorth>but design is iterative
14:36<frosch123>and deprecated :p
14:36<andythenorth>tweak a bit, tweak a bit more
14:36<@planetmaker>:)
14:36<frosch123>it puts "original"/"tgp" toplevel, while it is no rather getting hidden :p
14:36<andythenorth>yup
14:37<andythenorth>I would draw stuff, but right now my evening contains http://docs.pylonsproject.org/projects/deform/en/latest/retail.html#a-basic-example
14:37<andythenorth>and maybe https://www.flickr.com/photos/andythenorth/14024375307/in/set-72157644311005000
14:37<frosch123>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5147 <- that one did a better job at merging heightmap/mapgen/flat map
14:37<@planetmaker>looks like disgusting work
14:38<andythenorth>there is some rework idea in the forums somewhere, but I thought it was ‘meh'
14:38<frosch123>well, removing elements from the windows may make redesigning easier :p
14:38<andythenorth>always
14:38<andythenorth>removing is best
14:38<frosch123>many popular software has done that for touchscreens
14:39<andythenorth>but first you have to have too much
14:39<andythenorth>otherwise it’s not clear what to remove
14:40<@planetmaker>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5147/getfile/8429/wg_nl.png hm
14:40<@planetmaker>even includes place names
14:40<andythenorth>lacks flow
14:40<andythenorth>overwhelming number of options for a single form
14:41<@planetmaker>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5147/getfile/8428/wg_en.png <-- better in English :P
14:41<frosch123>maybe we should only have the advanced settings window
14:41<@planetmaker>well, some can now just go to adv. only
14:41<frosch123>and then drag&drop support to design your own windows :p
14:41<andythenorth>frosch123: worth considering :P
14:41<andythenorth>seriously
14:41<frosch123>"new settings window" -> "drop settings"
14:41<andythenorth>let’s see
14:42<andythenorth>choice of which generator is bollocks, not needed
14:42<@planetmaker>Though I think the flow is visible in that window.
14:42<andythenorth>variety distribution is nonsense, it apparently doesn’t do what it says - iirc what peter1139 thought about it :P
14:42<@planetmaker>We can also cut away on the edges (freeform default)
14:42<andythenorth>planetmaker: I am being over-harsh :)
14:43<andythenorth>easier to kick gui design hard than regret after the implementation work
14:43<frosch123>freeform edges are one of the hardest to add to adv. settings window :p
14:43<@planetmaker>:D
14:43<andythenorth>tree algo should not be a map gen choice
14:44<@planetmaker>size, terrain type, smoothness, sea, rivers, towns, trees, industries, town names, snow line
14:44<@planetmaker>and date and climate
14:44<frosch123>andythenorth: current plan is to add a "advanced button" to the mapgen window, and then open the normal adv. settings window
14:44<andythenorth>is smoothness much of an anything?
14:44<frosch123>i.e. no different mapgen windows with few or many settings
14:44<andythenorth>frosch123: that is a good plan
14:44<@planetmaker>and adv. settings, newgrfs, scripts buttons
14:44<andythenorth>or a linked terrain parameters (modal) window
14:45<frosch123>andythenorth: i would like to have all settings that actually affect the map shape to be in that window, since then you can properly add a preview at some point
14:45<andythenorth>advanced settings can open over the world gen?
14:45<@planetmaker>actually, yes. Just climate might suffice
14:45<andythenorth>here’s _my_ problem with terrain stuff
14:45<andythenorth>(1) I know we’ll get player complaints if we remove stuff, but meh
14:46<frosch123>you will also get complaints from me :p
14:46<andythenorth>(2) I’ve spent ages dicking around with controls and new map, seeing if I can control the map meaningfully. I can't
14:46<frosch123>the weirdest mapgen settings are imho the most interesting ones
14:46<andythenorth>it’s all just fiddly controls on a black box
14:46<andythenorth>you can’t actually make a decent desert or alpine terrain
14:46<frosch123>yes, that's why we need a preview of height and water
14:46<frosch123>directly in the window
14:47<andythenorth>it’s like people who twiddle EQ knobs on audio equipment, with no idea of what it does
14:47<frosch123>rivers+trees+roadside and such can go to advanced though
14:47*andythenorth explored terragenesis once
14:47<andythenorth>I wanted to try and get sub-types of climate
14:48<andythenorth>so alpine mountains, tundra, fjords, prairies, rainforest, desert, etc
14:48<andythenorth>islands, rolling hills
14:48<andythenorth>etc
14:49<@planetmaker>that requires touching actual map bits
14:49<@planetmaker>we should not start that yet here at this stage. It's not bike shedding. But the reverse of it ;)
14:50<@planetmaker>designing the nuclear heating for the bike shed :P
14:50<andythenorth>ha ha
14:50<frosch123>andythenorth: at least there is now a description in adv. settings what smoothness and variety dist actually do :p
14:51<frosch123>unless stuff to read is a bad feature
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15:12<andythenorth>BAD READING
15:13<andythenorth>frcik
15:13<andythenorth>cmd-w and cmd-q are annoyingly easy to mix up :(
15:13<@Alberth>use vim :)
15:13<andythenorth>:q
15:13<andythenorth>or is that the other one?
15:13<@planetmaker>instead of openttd? :P
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15:18<andythenorth>you can probably run openttd in emacs
15:18<andythenorth>from looking at other people’s screens, you can do anything in emacs :P
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>let me see you running windows in emacs :p
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15:25<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> well, back then there were 5 settings windows, with a bit of luck we can get to 3 :) <-- there's still no way to get to the sound settings from the main menu
15:26<frosch123>you mean the music settings?
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>the jukebox, yes
15:27<frosch123>who cares?
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>everyone
15:27<frosch123>i wouldn't notice if it went missing :p
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>there were numerous occasions in the last 20 years where i thought "well it's stupid to start a game just to turn off the music"
15:28<frosch123>you can do that from the main menu
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>like every time i start ttdpatch, the *beep* sound is way too loud
15:28<frosch123>"nomusic" is the best set
15:28<frosch123>resp. "-m null" via command line
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15:32<andythenorth>bloody crossing bells
15:32<andythenorth>:P
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: like most other settings, you likely won't need it if you run from an existing config
15:35<frosch123>no, unlike other settings i cannot remember having opened the music gui ever in the last 15 years, unless when it was discussed here
15:37<@planetmaker>no... this can't be true... >:|
15:37<@planetmaker>nmlc.exe seems to be created when I installed pillow and ply via pip. But didn't as long as they were installed via easy_install
15:44<@planetmaker>but well. Finally success. I can create nml-py3 executables for windows :)
15:44<frosch123>so, easy_install did not turn out to be easy? :p
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15:44<@planetmaker>it turned out to be a HUGE waste of my time
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15:53<Xaroth|Work>there's a reason why pip is becomming the default in py3k :P
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16:09<andythenorth>“the state of python packaging"
16:09<andythenorth>setuptools is never your freind
16:09<andythenorth>friend *
16:09<andythenorth>easy_install isn't
16:10<@planetmaker>Now I know :)
16:11<@planetmaker>hm, on a very bare windows that nmlc.exe still wants msvcr100.dll. But I guess that's not tragic
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16:24<frosch123>night
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17:12<Wolf01>'night
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