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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-05-23

---Logopened Fri May 23 00:00:28 2014
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02:11<@planetmaker>moin
02:16<V453000>yetis go moo
02:16<V453000>when they poo
02:17<@planetmaker>:P
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02:24<Flygon>But what do planets do?
02:24<Flygon>What do THEY make?
02:25<@planetmaker>they make places Yeti like to poo on ;)
02:25<@planetmaker>while they moo, of course
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02:44<V453000>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/6138/3-X_f1.wmv
02:44<V453000>serious yeti business
02:44<V453000>and final details could be later :)
02:44<V453000>some graphical bugs but that only takes re-rendering now :)
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03:00<kiz>those glasses :D
03:02<V453000>nice, it is noticeable :D i wasnt sure
03:08<Aristide>Hi ^^
03:09<V453000>nohi
03:10<Aristide>:)
03:10<Aristide>TCL install many Parkings xD
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03:30<LSky`>nice stuff V453000
03:33<LSky`>im guesing thats the vehicle factory?
03:33<Xaroth|Work>I sure hope it's not the food processing plant
03:33<LSky`>i dont know man
03:33<LSky`>it looked pretty yummy
03:53<V453000>it is the machinery factory yes :)
03:54<V453000>machinery increases effectiveness of workers for primary industries, something like supplies
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03:59<Aristide>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqVQmZfc8m0 <3
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04:28<V453000>the fuck is that
04:29<Aristide>V453000: I like Hybrid bus :D
04:29<Aristide>But cost 380 000 Euros :x
04:36<peter1139>What a horrible noise.
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04:40<V453000>yeti busses aint making no noise (:
04:41<peter1139>Road vehicle running sounds!
04:42<V453000>
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04:55<Aristide>x)
04:56<Aristide>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYkTGNG-JD0 Hehe a trolleybus (Cristalis ETB12)
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05:53<V453000>you are seriously ill
05:53<V453000>there isnt even anything to be seen
05:53<V453000>just seats
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07:41<Rubidium>LSky: I hope you're using a patched version that throws that assertion. It means that something tries to allocate a pool item without checking whether there is space for a new pool item
07:42<V453000>you cant build swimming pools in openttd.
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07:50<@planetmaker>so not true, V453000 !
07:51<@planetmaker>heck, even the default 'houses' have a fountain in which you surely can swim :)
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07:59<V453000>I stand corrected
08:01<@planetmaker>pew. Lucky me that you agree so easily. Or I would have had to make a swimming pool object newgrf ;)
08:03<@planetmaker>but would be a nice easter-egg thing for one or another grf :)
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08:38<Flygon>What we really need
08:38<Flygon>Is a method of having day and night
08:38<Flygon>And a GRF that like
08:38<Flygon>Shows couples swimming in the pool at night
08:38<Flygon>B3
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08:54<Aristide>V453000: I like inside of trolleybus :x
08:56<V453000>sounds wrong
08:57<V453000>Flygon: just make a newgrf which changes everything and all sprites turn to dark every odd year
08:57<V453000>eazy
08:57<V453000>idk if possible for landscape
08:58<Flygon>V453000: Don't worry, I wasn't completely seriou
08:58<Flygon>s
08:58<Flygon>I do think a day-night system with those day patches that actually give a 24 hour clock into the game would be awesometastic though
08:59<V453000>no need to interconnect that
09:00<V453000>having day for 1 year and night for another year would be nice enough
09:00<Flygon>I know
09:00<Flygon>But, eh
09:00<Flygon>I'm a romantic
09:00<Flygon>I envisage, someday
09:01<Flygon>A standard gauge HST line from Melbourne to Broken Hill, assuming HST = 250km/h max
09:01<Flygon>Via Bendigo and Swan Hill
09:01<Flygon>Others would call me mad
09:01<@planetmaker>V453000, that actually is not entirely possible. You cannot change infrastructure and landscape sprites. They don't have the required facilities to check for time
09:01<Flygon>I call it a method of printing money in OpenTTD
09:01<V453000>that is what I was saying pm :) "idk if possible for landscape"
09:01<@planetmaker>sorry, slow reading :P
09:02<V453000>but having those things able to check for that would be nice too
09:02<V453000>especially for e.g. randomizing landscape
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: which is a problem since TTRS switched road sets... why has that not been adressed yet?
09:02<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, it has. There's a fix for that in the openttd repository
09:02<@planetmaker>for desyncing multiplayer by that means ;)
09:03<@planetmaker>but the fix is differently... disabling the time dependence for MP entirely :P
09:03<@planetmaker>V453000, yes, it would. I totally agree. Such feature has nasty thorns, though
09:04<V453000>right
09:04<@planetmaker> Especially thorns from the cpu usage twitch ;)
09:04<V453000>aha
09:04<V453000>azz
09:05<@planetmaker>but then... nearly every feature takes cpu :)
09:06<V453000>remove all features
09:06<@planetmaker>indeed. solves many problems :P
09:06<@planetmaker>your sprites can have any colour you like. Provided it's black :P
09:07<V453000>=D
09:07<V453000>perfect
09:08<@planetmaker>also they can choose that any time at at any frequency you like ;)
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12:00<Phreeze>https://www.facebook.com/pages/Construction-and-management-simulation/108695132497309?nr
12:00<Phreeze>just noticed that theres a ottd or ttd screenshot :)
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12:00<Phreeze>ah ottd ;)
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13:17<Rubidium>planetmaker: transparent is a more useful color for speeding up drawing ;)
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13:29<andythenorth>o/
13:30<@Alberth>hi hi
13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26607 /trunk/src/lang (6 files) (2014-05-23 17:45:58 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>catalan - 25 changes by juanjo
13:46<@DorpsGek>simplified_chinese - 3 changes by xiangyigao
13:46<@DorpsGek>croatian - 17 changes by VoyagerOne
13:46<@DorpsGek>czech - 7 changes by Eskymak
13:46<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 7 changes by Stabilitronas
13:46<@DorpsGek>russian - 8 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:46<andythenorth>where is cat?
13:46-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d01170e.pool.mediaways.net] has joined #openttd
13:46<andythenorth>here is frog
13:47<andythenorth>frog is not cat
13:47<andythenorth>nor bird
13:52<Supercheese>@seen cat
13:52<@DorpsGek>Supercheese: I have not seen cat.
13:52<Supercheese>Here has never been cat
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14:02<frosch123>no, but i believe we have a cow
14:04<andythenorth>moof
14:05<frosch123>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3356/ <- though it claims there is some ambiguouty about moo
14:06<@Alberth>V is clearly the expert :)
14:08<frosch123>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3357/ <- maybe V is uncertain about his animalish orientation
14:08<@planetmaker>nah, I'd not claim that. He just took foreign language courses
14:10<andythenorth>are we making anything?
14:10*Alberth just made a new patch
14:11*planetmaker works on building nml-py3.
14:11<@Alberth>and /me is wondering about making some tea
14:11<@planetmaker>oh, good idea
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14:12<@Alberth>meow
14:12<andythenorth>coffee?
14:12*andythenorth wonders
14:12<andythenorth>maybe I’ll play the game
14:12<Wolf01>woff
14:12<andythenorth>or maybe I’ll fix the UI elements that are failing colour contrast
14:12<andythenorth>work
14:12<@Alberth>#paint it black
14:14<Wolf01>paint it like one of your french girls
14:15<Xaroth|Work>planetmaker: for unix or win?
14:17<@planetmaker>Xaroth, unix was done weeks ago
14:17<Xaroth|Work>then what's wrong with win?
14:17<@planetmaker>and actually I 'just' need to get it done for the right wine version as we have on the server
14:18<@planetmaker>Xaroth, cx_freeze working under wine...
14:18<@planetmaker>and configuring the CF to like that
14:19<Xaroth|Work>why cx_freeze? does it require some strange lib?
14:19<@planetmaker>if you give me another means to create a simple-to-use exe file for windows users... feel free
14:19<@Alberth>for some reason, MS doesn't install a useful program like Python on their machine :(
14:20<@planetmaker>yeah. Nor provides a package manager to do so
14:20<Xaroth|Work>hrnf, if they have python3 installed, iirc, you don't -have- to make it an exe
14:20<@planetmaker>Xaroth, then not. But then it still requires setting up all paths etc. pp
14:20<@Alberth>Xaroth|Work: obviously, most don't have that :)
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14:20<@planetmaker>I can meanwhile also provide an installer which works with a py3 install. But as alberth says.
14:21<@planetmaker>And those require possibly installers tailored for the specific python version. So many more packages which need building
14:21<Xaroth|Work>ah, lame
14:21<@planetmaker>yeah. The world is lame in some parts
14:22<Xaroth|Work>yeh, I'm used to being able to tell people to install libraries mine needs :P
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14:25*Alberth is pretty sure, my Linux DVD has what Xaroth|Work needs :p
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14:31<V453000>andythenorth: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/6138/3-X_f1.wmv (:
14:31<V453000>doing something (:
14:34<andythenorth>people are going to love these
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>2010-12-21 01:30:50 <Eddi|zuHause> and a black cow says "yo man, moo man!" <-- how did that ever come out of my brain?
14:35<V453000>people =! important
14:35<V453000>!= (:
14:38<@Alberth>this will be the first newgrf I want to play at 4x zoom :)
14:40<V453000>:)
14:51*andythenorth does work
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15:15<V453000>so how do I code an industry newgrf? :D
15:16<andythenorth>you get planetmaker to do it
15:16<andythenorth>or Alberth
15:17<V453000>that sounds ... reasonable but hm :)
15:17<V453000>I am not very sure they want to do the minionizing :P
15:18<@Alberth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx-mars-industries/repository/show/src
15:18<andythenorth>V453000: do you want to do anything clever / fancy?
15:19*Alberth considers moving pictures fance
15:19<@Alberth>*fancy
15:20<V453000>primaries have base production based on game date (is possible?), primaries do not produce anything without workers, delivered workers increase production, delivered machinery increases effectiveness of workers
15:21<V453000>is that a reasonable mechanism?
15:21<andythenorth>try it and see
15:21<andythenorth>you’ll probably want templating
15:21<@planetmaker>yeah, try and see
15:21<V453000>Alberth: thanks, that looks helpful
15:21<V453000>I meant reasonably possible to code
15:21<V453000>not game-wise
15:21<@planetmaker>possible, sure
15:21<andythenorth>yes it’s reasonable, but not short
15:22<andythenorth>you could look at FIRS, to see what not to do :)
15:22<andythenorth>FIRS has a lot of history
15:22<V453000>dont think I can wrap my head around FIRS code
15:22<@Alberth>nml needs a macro expander :)
15:22<V453000>templating sounds good since I want to make all industries work super similarly, at the same time I think I would kill more time than save
15:23<@Alberth>V453000: that code is probably as basic as it gets
15:23<andythenorth>Alberth: yexo was mostly -1 to that I think
15:23<V453000>right
15:23<@Alberth>andythenorth: why?
15:23<peter1139>hello
15:23<@planetmaker>Alberth, "re-inventing the wheel"
15:23<@Alberth>o/
15:23<@planetmaker>but not sure I agree
15:24<@Alberth>yeah, making people install cpp is friendlier :)
15:24<andythenorth>also ‘nml has other more important features to add'
15:25<@Alberth>I agree, if only I could understand it all :)
15:26<@Alberth>for me, it would be better to start from scratch, but that would take a few years probably
15:27<andythenorth>hello peter1139
15:27<andythenorth>Alberth: start nml from scratch?
15:27<andythenorth>:o
15:28<@Alberth>do you know a better way to understand nfo & nml?
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15:38<andythenorth>no
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15:45<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: reimplement it in C++ while you're at it :)
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15:51<@Alberth>actually, I had plans of making a linkable newgrf format :)
15:51<LordAro>Alberth: also, you're busy doing more important (tm) things ;)
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15:51<@Alberth>yeah, as usual :(
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16:06<andythenorth>linkable newgrf format \o/ :)
16:06<andythenorth>I wondered if a pure python format could be managed :P
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16:07<andythenorth>just define classes for all entities
16:07<andythenorth>then write out nfo or newgrf format directly
16:08<andythenorth>probably not general-purpose enough :P
16:09<Eddi|zuHause># Und Gott sprach zu der Menge:
16:09<Eddi|zuHause># IHR SEID SO LEISE
16:09<@Alberth>sounds like a bit too general purpose to me :)
16:09<@planetmaker>andythenorth, linkable does not necessarily mean to define everything as classes or so
16:09<@planetmaker>just that you can define and build each vehicle / industry / ... separately and link it later
16:09<@Alberth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linker_%28computing%29 <-- this linking
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16:11<andythenorth>I know :)
16:12<andythenorth>Alberth: you’d change the newgrf format, or the meta language, or both?
16:13<@Alberth>neither
16:13<@Alberth>you get an intermediate format just above newgrf
16:14<@Alberth>although if you use a textual format, you'll probably end up with something nfo-ish
16:16<andythenorth>would this be transparent to current nml authors?
16:16<andythenorth>or would it require a change in authoring?
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16:17<@planetmaker>ideally it should be.
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16:19<andythenorth>what (how?) analysis would be done to identify what needs re-compiled and linked?
16:19<@Alberth>you should be able to do partial compilation
16:20<@planetmaker>andythenorth, *that*, I guess, is the interesting question
16:20<@Alberth>that's what make has been doing for a long time (not sure if it still does that), but currently it's useless
16:21<@Alberth>and linking, you need to link everything, don't you?
16:22<@Alberth>ie you can run a compile for just one industry
16:22<@Alberth>(theoretically at least)
16:23<@Alberth>do that for every industry, and then link all pieces into firs.grf
16:23<@planetmaker>I wonder how to deal with the ID issue, though. Whether to replace them on the run. Or whether to keep two 'pools', a global and local ones
16:23<@Alberth>set during linking, i think
16:23<andythenorth>global and local scopes :P
16:23<andythenorth>make the author do it right
16:24<@planetmaker>set during linking means we need to run at least an ID replacement in the object code
16:24<@Alberth>you need to do that anyway, to connect stuff together
16:25<@Alberth>also you need to write out the result, so you need to load all data
16:25<andythenorth>hmm
16:27<andythenorth>don’t we need to then inspect all IDs?
16:27<andythenorth>or does using pools prevent colissions?
16:28<LordAro>clearly you should be writing nnml
16:28<@planetmaker>andythenorth, not necessarily. if the objectfile specifies the localIDs just and indicates those which are global and need remain unmodified
16:28<LordAro>new newgrf meta language
16:29<@Alberth>I am not convinced you have any global IDs
16:29<andythenorth>chameleon forces local for IDs (var names). Global IDs have to be explicitly defined, and are disliked
16:29<@Alberth>just claim you need one, and the linker will give you one
16:29<andythenorth>like many other languages
16:30<@Alberth>note in my book, an ID is just a name, rather than a number
16:30<andythenorth>can’t we do something brutal, like just force declaration of all global IDs at top of file?
16:30<andythenorth>ugly but works
16:30<andythenorth>ugly is bad :
16:30<andythenorth>:P
16:31<@planetmaker>Alberth, I'm conviced you have global IDs
16:31<@planetmaker>e.g. the grf parameters, they are necessarily global IDs
16:31<andythenorth>http://www.jnd.org/dn.mss/emotion_design_at.html
16:31<@Alberth>planetmaker: why?
16:31<@planetmaker>newgrf parameters? We cannot do without them, can't we?
16:31<@Alberth>sure we cannot
16:32<@planetmaker>how would we treat parameters which set vehicle costs?
16:32<@Alberth>name it "vehicle_cost_parameter_setting"
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16:32<@Alberth>the action 14 declares it as provider, and some other code declares it as needing it
16:33<@Alberth>does it matter what number it actually has?
16:33<@planetmaker>not. As long as it's the same in every linked module
16:33<@Alberth>the linker ensures that everybody using that name will get the assigned number
16:34<@Alberth>and even after the last use, it may be re-used for other purposes
16:34<@Alberth>the linker can figure out what the last user is, I think
16:35<@Alberth>ie the intermediate format uses symbolic numbers, rather than real ones
16:38<andythenorth>unrelated, but I wondered about teaching nmlc to compile from multiple fles (from a manifest)
16:38<andythenorth>seems like a simple thing that would help some authors split up their code better
16:44<@Alberth>hmm, that would be before the scanner, it's quite feasible, actually
16:45<andythenorth>I would have thought so
16:45<andythenorth>I have python code in my compiles for it
16:45<andythenorth>pretty trivial
16:46<@Alberth>it needs some error reporting fixing perhaps
16:47<@Alberth>and Python doesn't exactly like long string manipulations
16:48<andythenorth>can’t we just append to an object for readlines in files or something?
16:48<andythenorth>that may make no sense
16:48*andythenorth plays actual ottd
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>... but... cpp already handles connecting files and error reporting locations...
16:50<@Alberth>it doesn't read lines, unless you modify the scanner
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>nmlc even has code for understanding cpp error location output
16:51<@Alberth>yep, /me added that
16:51<andythenorth>teach authors cpp?
16:51<@Alberth>otherwise people get hopelessly lost with an error
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if it also resolves the "included from ..." part
16:51<andythenorth>everyone has to install gcc?
16:52<@planetmaker>doing without cpp would not be a bad idea
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: everyone has to install make?
16:52<andythenorth>I dunno
16:52<andythenorth>do they? :)
16:52*Alberth doesn't understand the need for make, except as an easy way to bundle scripts in one file
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but do you want to reimplement _every_ feature of cpp? if you don't, people who use those features will just stick with cpp anyway
16:53<andythenorth>I only use make because of devzone
16:53<Rubidium>maybe a stupid idea... but doesn't NML need PLY? What about /usr/share/pyshared/ply/cpp.py ?
16:53<@Alberth>which every feature?
16:53<andythenorth>and making tar
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: you mean like nmlc just runs cpp internally?
16:54<andythenorth>and because “ain’t broke, don’t fix"
16:54<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, no. But which of those features are actually used?
16:54<@Alberth>Rubidium: I looked at that, but iirc there was something not useful about it
16:54<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: exactly ;)
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i certainly use some pretty crazy features
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: just take the VEH_ID macro(s)
16:55<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, no-one will stop you doing that. And it won't become impossible
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>no sane person would invent that :p
16:56<@planetmaker>but the average user might already profit much when a few basic cpp capabilities become possible
16:56<@planetmaker>like include or some simple macros
16:56<frosch123>night
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16:56<@Alberth>in particular multi-line macros
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>"but who needs THAT??"
16:57<@planetmaker>:P
16:57<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, the argument that everything needs to be mimiced is not one which cuts
16:58<@planetmaker>Nor what is needed. But providing more options for basic use helps to push the border to where more
16:58<@planetmaker>sophisticated parsers are needed further
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: possibly, but wherever you make the cut, you will get complaints
16:58<@planetmaker>of course. But that's no difference to now
16:58<@planetmaker>and like always, every journey starts with a first step
16:59<@planetmaker>going like "you need everything" is not useful for that
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>there is also the other direction: things that are done with cpp are often not the optimal solution, there may be better solutions (like avoiding double include and stuff)
17:00<@planetmaker>and if we always add the most-needed thing, we'll get there^
17:00<andythenorth>is anything done with cpp an _optimal_ solution? o_O
17:00*andythenorth is trolling
17:00<@planetmaker>andythenorth, that's indeed a valid question. Possibly #include is. Not sure about the rest
17:01<@planetmaker>maybe #define
17:01<andythenorth>constant substitution is fricking awesome
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: depends on your metric
17:01<andythenorth>we got a long way in the first cpp FIRS with constant substitution
17:01*andythenorth wonders about python built-in $ templating
17:02<talebowl>I'm assuming that in general, if something isn't covered in the coding guidelines, it shouldn't be used, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask anyway: (a) should/can the member initializer list be used; -- (b) should/can uniform initializer syntax be used?
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>you don't need constant substitution if the compiler has proper constant folding
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>optimizing out "parameters" if they never change
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>as such, i think "#define" is one of the least optimal solutions (the quick-and-dirty kind)
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17:06<andythenorth>in what perspective?
17:06<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, but it helps for the legibility of code, if you can like #define some_stuff = var1 - var2 + 2 * var3 * param0
17:06<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I have a view, but why least optimal?
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but then you differentiate between the value of the term or the textual representation of the term. those are very different things
17:11*andythenorth -> sliip
17:11<andythenorth>urgh can’t type
17:11<andythenorth>bed
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18:18<Wolf01>'night all
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---Logclosed Sat May 24 00:00:30 2014