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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-05-25

---Logopened Sun May 25 00:00:31 2014
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04:58<@Alberth>moin to all awake at this time
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07:03<Aristide>Hi :)
07:05<Aristide>Alberth: \o
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07:08<Aristide>SNCF : :troll:
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>in germany you sometimes have frames before the bridge with a slightly smaller size, so when a truck would hit the bridge, it would hit the frame instead
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07:11<Taede>same in the netherlands
07:11<Taede>though they tend to be same height, but with chains dangling down
07:11<Aristide>Eddi|zuHause: I don't know if you know, but SNCF has bought 2 000 too larger trains :')
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>Aristide: yes i heard
07:11<Aristide>Its fun :x
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07:13<Eddi|zuHause>it's way better than in germany, where they buy trains which don't get delivered, or you can't sit when you have normal sized legs, or the doors won't close
07:13<Aristide>In Lyon, we have an other example about Confluence Museum
07:13<Aristide>2000 : 61 000 000 € :D
07:14<Aristide>2011 : 267 000 000 € :D
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like the Elbphilharmonie in Hamburg
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>and don't even get started about Stuttgart train station and Berlin airport :p
07:15<Aristide>ée_des_Confluences :x
07:17<Aristide>Here we have a problem in a gare : Part Dieu is ready for 35 000 peoples per day, but actually : 120 000 peoples per day use this gare
07:18<Aristide>180 000 000 € must be invested
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>the original estimate for the Elbphilharmonie was 77 Mio €, upon starting construction in 2007 it was 114 Mio €, in 2012 it was 575 Mio € and in 2013 789 Mio €
07:20<Aristide>I don't know what is final cost in 2013 or 2014 :/
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>also the finishing date was ever pushed backwards
07:21<@Alberth>and then people claim only ict projects get out of hand :p
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>and the "Stuttgart 21" project, where they completely remove the dead end station of stuttgart, and replace it with an underground station 90° turned, originally was meant to cost 1 Mrd €, it's currently estimated at over 4 Mrd €, which was always said as "at this point it can't refinance itself", and probably will cost double that
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>they actually got violent protests on that one
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>including police brutality
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07:24<Wolf01>hi hi
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07:26<@Rubidium>cost overruns are normal due to the way the 'higher' ups present the budgets
07:26<Wolf01>ahah I just re-read the comment of Rubidium about the auto-update of grfs "There are plans to implement something, but before that gets useful we'll probably be in 2012 or something." <- yeah, it's more like something, better late than never ;)
07:27<@Rubidium>the lower levels say: part X will cost 10-40 million, then all these numbers of all subparts get aggregrated, so you'll get something like it will cost 1 billion - 4 billion. Finally the highest level will say: it will cost at most 1 billion
07:29<@Rubidium>heh... that's only a two year overrun for a project where nobody can really pressure someone else to do something; I'd say that's quite good
07:30<@Rubidium>and it stayed within budget; it's still EUR 0,00. Exactly what was budgetted
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07:39<Samu>hi, is brumi here?
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>is the game version not part of the image metadata?
07:42<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: it should be
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>not in this file:
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>oh, i see it
07:42<@Rubidium>that's h122e7a62
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>"Software : h122e7a62"
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i recognize that number
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>i guess that is waaaaay too old for the house date fix
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07:45<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: [NewGRF] If a NewGRF overrides a default house the minimum start year for that house was set to 1930?
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07:46<@Rubidium>that's 1.1.4-RC1 (november 2011), whereas the chillpp build is of july 2012
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>does not sound right. more like "assure that a house for each town zone is available at game start"
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>-Fix [FS#4600]: try to make sure there is an early house available in the current climate for every townzone, not just a single available house for all climates/townzones
07:47<@Rubidium>then I have no clue
07:48<@Rubidium>that's april 2011 / 1.1.1-RC1
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>afair chillpp stopped updating somewhere halfway to 1.2
07:50<@Rubidium> <- that revision log looks just wrong
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>my chillpp checkout is of r22273, whereas the above house fix is r22389
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07:52<Eddi|zuHause>but i probably don't have the very latest chillpp
07:55<Samu>Brumi: you there?
07:55<Samu>i finally got it
07:55<Samu>a replay with TTDX AI building an helicopter
07:55<Brumi>yes I'm interested
07:55<Samu>replay = savegame, oops
07:55<Brumi>seen any ships since then :)
07:56<Samu>nop, not that im aware
07:59<Samu>it's the orange company
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08:01<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: afair, ChillPP stopped right before all the GRFv8 stuff was commited, and then only singular revisions were backported
08:02<Brumi>hmm oil rig again
08:02<Brumi>it seems that the TTD AI had some special support for oil rigs
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08:05<@Alberth>sounds reasonable; oil rigs are special in a number of ways
08:18<Samu>I must try the other tilesets
08:19<Samu>it took me nearly 2 weeks to finally get an AI to make an helicopter
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08:38<Aristide> ^^
08:38<Aristide>Believe me my experience SNCF engineering station, it goes nickel
08:38<Aristide>(For translate)
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09:19<Eddi|zuHause>besides that i find the joke inappropriate, what does "nickel" mean in that context?
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10:46<yorick> personally, I would like to be able to use keys like ., /, [, ] as hotkeys. without those keys, the right half of my keyboard is reduced to 11 usable hotkeys instead of the possible 17, creating some serious usability loss that seems rather unneeded
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10:49<Eddi|zuHause>yorick: those keys are not easily accessible on many keyboard layouts
10:51<yorick>Eddi|zuHause: the user wanting to set those keys in their hotkeys settings will probably have them, and they are accessible on the most frequently used keyboard layouts
10:56<frosch123>i think öäü+#ß´ are way better accessible
10:57<yorick>seems like a good reason to include those too :)
11:02<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26614 /trunk/src (3 files in 3 dirs) (2014-05-25 15:02:04 UTC)
11:02<@DorpsGek>-Add: Adv. settings window can handle the autosave setting as well.
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26615 /trunk/src/lang (7 files) (2014-05-25 17:45:39 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan - 42 changes by juanjo
13:45<@DorpsGek>english_AU - 10 changes by mrtux
13:45<@DorpsGek>finnish - 10 changes by jpx_
13:45<@DorpsGek>french - 10 changes by glx
13:45<@DorpsGek>korean - 11 changes by telk5093
13:45<@DorpsGek>russian - 4 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish - 3 changes by juanjo
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13:54<@planetmaker>good evening
13:56<frosch123>translators are soo lazy
13:56<frosch123>at least the german ones
13:56<frosch123>hai pm :)
13:57<@Rubidium>s/german/non-Catalan/ ;)
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14:48<MTsPony>Im new here, but not unfamiliar with TT(D) :p
14:48<@Alberth>welcome :)
14:48<MTsPony>was about to start a new sub-tropic 4096x4096 server but some folks requested some additions i was gonna meet up here :p
14:48<@planetmaker>we're only familiar with OpenTTD here ;)
14:51<MTsPony>anyway thanks for the welcome!
14:52<@Alberth>so you're playing with 30 or so persons?
14:52<MTsPony>Well, not yet. The plan is to make a big server capable of around that
14:53<MTsPony>I had one started up, but some folks wanted some GRF additions etc, also I'm prolly gonna use the reddit build with daylenght patch
14:54<@Alberth>with 16 persons each has 1024x1024 tiles
14:54<@Alberth>with 32 persons that's 512x1024
14:54<@planetmaker>he... on coop we play on 1024 tiles for weeks
14:55<MTsPony>hax :p
14:55<@planetmaker>no, contrary to that we do not use any patches
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>with 4096² people will have trouble signing on earlier
14:55<@Alberth>so nobody will run into each other
14:55<MTsPony>Could anyone shed some light on the bandwidth requirements for like a 16 man player 4096x4096 server?
14:55<@Alberth>bandwitdh is not the problem
14:55<@planetmaker>3kbit / client
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>bandwidth is negligible, CPU power is relevant
14:56<MTsPony>i7 @ 4.4ghz doable?
14:56<@planetmaker>additionally the downloads of the map when joining
14:56<@planetmaker>MTsPony, every client needs a *better* CPU than the server
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>MTsPony: the CPU power of every single client
14:56<@planetmaker>mind that :)
14:56<MTsPony>so far the cpu usage has been around 1-2% on 4096x4096 maps here, with around 300 trains
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>MTsPony: as odd as it sounds, you get the best results when the server is the slowest
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>MTsPony: also, single-core speed matters
14:57<MTsPony>that'd be 4.4ghz i7 single core then :p
14:57<@Alberth>your % is probably for all cores
14:57<@planetmaker>on windows it surely is
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>MTsPony: the easiest metrics of whether your computer can handle stuff is when you take a really full game (like >1000 vehicles and lots of cargo) and press the fast forward button.
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>if the game still speeds up significantly, you're fine
14:58<MTsPony>yeh ok
14:59<@Alberth>not that 1000 vehicles at 30 persons is just 30 vehicles each
15:00<@Alberth>ie done in a few game years at normal speed
15:01<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r26616 trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp (2014-05-25 19:01:30 UTC)
15:01<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r26576) [FS#6025]: First send packages about new company, then clients joining it to admin port (Taede)
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>that grammar is off...
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>at the very least it's missing a comma, which makes it really hard to understand on first read
15:03<Taede>or an 'about'
15:03<Taede>'then about clients joining it'
15:03<Taede>also, ello
15:04<@planetmaker>I hope you don't mind that I now don't hack the svn server to fix the stored commit message ;)
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>I DO!!
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>and to support my anger, i release __ln___ onto you!!
15:05*Taede is content with having a first patch in trunk
15:05<@planetmaker>oh noes! /me quickly hides
15:08<andythenorth>did a bit more today
15:08<andythenorth>those two grey things are linear actuators for the articulated steering
15:09<@Alberth>it escaped from the lab/house!
15:10<@Alberth>looks much better, in the wild :)
15:12<frosch123>hmm, oh, i found a forums tab
15:12<frosch123>i opened it this morning, but then thought maybe read it later :p
15:12<frosch123>i guess i just skip it today :)
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15:15<Eddi|zuHause>"Vitali Klitschko is new mayor of Kiew"
15:20<LSky`>MTsPony, if you need help with the reddit client and its settings, send me a message
15:22<LSky`>hi, Jinassi told me you were looking for some help. seems like youve had some questions answered already though
15:22<@planetmaker>I would find it much more interesting, if someone started a server which always uses the current nightly
15:22<@planetmaker>Thus updates at like 21h CET or so
15:23<LSky`>it would mean people would have to update their client though, right?
15:23<@planetmaker>well, they would yes
15:23<LSky`>ifor testing purposes, it makes total sense
15:24<@planetmaker>but that's not more complicated, on the contrary, it's easier than installing a 'custom' client
15:24<LSky`>but for actual playing, I dont see that working out too well
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15:24<@Alberth>you can also update twice a week or so
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15:24<@planetmaker>and there's several auto-updates which give you nightly or so just by a mouse click
15:24<@planetmaker>well, with coop we update like once a week. Usually prior to a new map. Unless I simply update :P
15:26<@planetmaker>well, and stable server only updates when there's a new testing or stable release... But then also mid-game :)
15:26<frosch123>you kind of want to update when noone is playing
15:27<frosch123>so, rather 9am instead of 9pm :p
15:27<frosch123>resp. on wednesday or thursday if weekly
15:28<@planetmaker>yeah, also viable :)
15:28<@planetmaker>There once was a nightly server and it had a quite active community really
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>but even that did not update daily
15:34<@planetmaker>dih's server did
15:34<Jinassi>hey, openttdcoop peeps, does your resolution tweak from 2006 blopost still applies to current revisions?
15:35<@planetmaker>I will be surprised
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>Jinassi: dedicated server has had an overhaul since then
15:36<Jinassi>yes it is an old tweak, hence i am asking
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>basically a "dedicated blitter" has been introduced that discards screen output at earlier stages of processing
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>whereas back then all the sprite sorting and buffering still happened, just the push to the graphics driver never happened
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>now also the sprite sorting is skipped
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>unless you specifically enable it
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15:39<Jinassi>Alright, so help me here a bit, I'm on wiki and am really curious what value should I write to usethat dedicated blitter?
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>(that only makes sense if you want to take screenshots and stuff from the server console, so nobody really does it)
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>the dedicated blitter is automatically used when you start in dedicated mode (-D)
15:39<Jinassi>no, want to help make a 4k x 4k map and really use any helpfull tweak to make it run smooth
15:39<Jinassi>Thank you very much
15:41<@planetmaker>Jinassi, as I said earlier to MTsPony: whatever the server does, *every client* needs a more powerful CPU
15:41<@planetmaker>As it additionally also has to handle the graphics output
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>MTsPony, Jinassi: when the server is too fast, people will drop out of the game because their clients cannot keep up
15:43<Jinassi>we had lotsa practice on /r/openttd and many empires were built and demolished
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>if you speed up the server, you make the issue worse
15:45<Jinassi>lsky tooks great care of us and a well polished custom build didn't bring us to that issue...yet
15:45<Jinassi>*server and client
15:46<LSky`>what issue?
15:46<Jinassi>server too fast, clents cant keep up
15:47<@planetmaker>that mod does not change anything on that end, Jinassi ;)
15:50<LSky`>but weve had issues with clients not being able to keep up
15:50<LSky`>as explained before, its dependent on client hardware
15:50<MTsPony>when would the server be too fast?
15:51<@Rubidium>when clients can't keep up with the server?
15:51<@planetmaker>MTsPony, basically it depends on what you expect your *average* client to handle, on how wide the computer speed varies between your different clients. And the percentage of possible clients you want to exclude by your settings :)
15:52<@planetmaker>(and maybe those which you gain by running the hardware-intensive settings)
15:53<MTsPony>so if some guy with a pentium 1 connects, Or even manages, every game will run dog slow?
15:53<LSky`>he will just lag out
15:53<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26617 /trunk/src/script (4 files) (2014-05-25 19:53:46 UTC)
15:53<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#5973]: [Script] Loading/parsing of info .nuts was done in the same VM, causing e.g. constants to break the loading of info of other scripts
15:54<LSky`>its better explained like this
15:54<LSky`>the server doesnt run 'fast'
15:54<LSky`>it just runs its pace, but eventually clients will be unable to keep up
15:54<LSky`>theyre too slow
15:55<@planetmaker>MTsPony, you simply will not learn to know them. For the reasons lsky just said
15:55<@planetmaker>they never will be able to see the map or say a word ingame
15:55<MTsPony>well. in that
15:55<MTsPony>they should upgrade their pc or connection eh? :p
15:56<@Alberth>no, their CPU cannot keep up
15:57<@Alberth>if your server runs at 100%, you run the game only
15:57<@Alberth>a client needs to run the same game AND draw the images to the screen
15:58<@planetmaker>my unqualified experience tells me, a client needs 20% more cpu
15:58<Taede>and contrary to most other games out there, drawing is done mostly by cpu instead of gfx card
15:59<@Alberth>on the other hand, if you have a slow server, the game as a whole slows down earlier, but all clients then have time to draw the graphics
16:00<@Alberth>and stay connected
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16:05<MTsPony>anyone know the highest settings for
16:05<MTsPony>commands_per_frame = 2
16:05<MTsPony>max_commands_in_queue = 16
16:05<MTsPony>bytes_per_frame = 8
16:05<MTsPony>bytes_per_frame_burst = 256
16:05<MTsPony>max_init_time = 20000
16:05<MTsPony>max_join_time = 20000
16:05<MTsPony>max_download_time = 32000
16:05<MTsPony>max_password_time = 4000
16:05<MTsPony>max_lag_time = 1000
16:05<MTsPony>pause_on_join = true
16:05<MTsPony>the *time entries anyway
16:06<Taede>not of the top of my head, but if you type for instance 'set commands_per_frame' without a value, it will tell you the current value as well as a min/max value where applicable
16:06<Taede>in the console
16:06<MTsPony>kk thx
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16:22<RageRiot|>Hi, I was asking yesterday about font sizes. I changed the medium font to somthing easier on my eyes but the size isnt increasing.
16:23<RageRiot|>medium_size = 16
16:23<RageRiot|>the font stayed the same size,
16:26<frosch123>you also have to change the font, not only the size
16:26<RageRiot|>Also music isnt playing. I looked at the Faq which suggests I need timidity which is installed on my system. The commands it suggests I enter returns an error
16:26<frosch123>the default font does not support different sizes
16:26<RageRiot|>I did
16:27<RageRiot|>medium_font = DejaVu Sans Mono Bold
16:27<RageRiot|>medium_size = 8
16:27<RageRiot|>that should have been 16 but I tested with 8
16:28<frosch123>is that really the font name?
16:29<frosch123>maybe you mean the font "DejaVu Sans Mono" in the bold variant? then it would be "DejaVu Sand Mono, bold"
16:30<@planetmaker>good night
16:32<RageRiot|>hmm I think it is working now I've chose a different font
16:33<RageRiot|>ye I think it kept going back to a defualt font when I used DejaVu Sand Mono, bold
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16:33<frosch123>if you copied my typo :p
16:34<RageRiot|>lol haha ye good point but I tried it last night where I copied front the font viewer on linux mint
16:35<RageRiot|>I've gotta go out for a bit. I'll ask about the sound when I get back.
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17:08<Wolf01>'night all
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18:43<Eddi|zuHause>RageRiot|: are you absolutely sure the font changes?
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>RageRiot|: can you get some relevant debug output?
18:49<Jinassi>prolly has an old config file, i don't see any font settings in win version
18:49<Jinassi>though he's on linux if i remember correctly
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19:32<RageRiot|>hey eddi yeh it reallt does seem to work now.
19:36<Jinassi>Rage, do tell me how did you make it work, i play on 3 montors and on high resolution it really puts a strain on eyes
19:37<RageRiot|>I think you need to have the font in quotes
19:37<RageRiot|>and bold after the comma
19:37<RageRiot|>small_font = "Bitstream Charterf, Bold"
19:39<Jinassi>is AA false or true?
19:39<RageRiot|>I left mine false but I might play with that later
19:43<RageRiot|>are you on linux as well Jinassi ?
19:43<RageRiot|>music isnt workin on mine.
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---Logclosed Mon May 26 00:00:33 2014