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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-05-31

---Logopened Sat May 31 00:00:40 2014
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02:13<@planetmaker>moin moin
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03:47<andythenorth>o/
03:51<@Alberth>mornink andy
03:56<@planetmaker>o/
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04:18<__ln__>http://www.daveexmachina.com/wordpress/?p=8880
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04:20<andythenorth>hmm
04:20<andythenorth>so are we making nml faster? o_O
04:21<@planetmaker>maybe?
04:23<andythenorth>I don’t think I’ll do much more on FIRS until either...
04:23<andythenorth>- faster compile
04:23<andythenorth>- linker
04:23<andythenorth>- or I get better at programming
04:23<andythenorth>the third is a Hard Problem
04:23<andythenorth>the other two are much easier options :P
04:24<andythenorth>FIRS already has support for compiling a single industry, but it’s fragile
04:24<andythenorth>I could improve it, would take about a day
04:24<andythenorth>and it doesn’t benefit any other newgrfs :P
04:26<@Alberth>wouldn't you need the third to do the first two?
04:28<andythenorth>I can do a faster compile with my current fat-fingered skills
04:28<andythenorth>linker is beyond me
04:28<andythenorth>as is Not Making Mistakes Only Found After Compiling
04:29<andythenorth>my ratio of productive code to typos, obiwans, bad thinking etc is low
04:29<andythenorth>and waiting minutes to find each one saps interest
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04:32<andythenorth>for Iron Horse, I’ve started using some basic compile-time tests in the python stage, before nml is even called
04:34<andythenorth>I am not very clever, so I would probably have approached the whole thing differently
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04:35<andythenorth>each entity (industry, house, train, object etc) would be an object with full action 0, 2, 3 chain as needed
04:35<andythenorth>then throw each of those into a multiprocessing pool, then link the result
04:35<andythenorth>no global IDs
04:36<andythenorth>global IDs are BAD FEATURE
04:36<andythenorth>or something
04:36<andythenorth>dunno, I’m not good at computer science :P
04:37<Eddi|zuHause>not everything that yo udon't understand is bad :p
04:41<andythenorth>ha
04:42<andythenorth>I did do some computer science lectures in one of my degrees
04:42<andythenorth>one of the key lessons was Global Variables Must Never Be Used
04:52<andythenorth>no bites :(
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05:00<Flygon>I once got a lot of shit from people for trying to put nested if statements in AviSynth
05:00<Flygon>And they insisted I ALWAYS try to do if statements in a specific way
05:01<Flygon>Even if the non-nested version of the method I used worked fine...
05:01<@Alberth>the point being?
05:02<@Alberth>it's called code style, and it's insane by definition
05:02<@Alberth>unless it's your own project, in which case it's the optimal way to code
05:03<andythenorth>I’ve witnessed a large discrepancy between code organised by “there is one true way” and code that delivers successfully for end users
05:03<andythenorth>in my limited experience, which is getting close to 30 years
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05:04<andythenorth>I’ve definitely seen projects fail because they were being done wrong
05:05<andythenorth>and I’ve definitely seen projects fail because they were being done right
05:05<andythenorth>and in the middle is a happy mess of things that more or less work, and are more or less wrong or right
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05:40<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> one of the key lessons was Global Variables Must Never Be Used <-- that is a common teaching, but it doesn't mean there's never need to access the same data from every place
05:40<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that’s not a very good trash talk answer :(
05:41<andythenorth>stop being so reasonable
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>... especially when the language doesn't have dynamic allocation/a heap anyway
05:46<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the "no global variables" rule is meant to ensure that you have a clean interface to the "outside". this may or may not help with code reuse and/or automatted program analysis
05:47<andythenorth>it’s also bad advice if novice programmers learn it too hard
05:47<andythenorth>they end up doing elaborate shit
05:48<@Alberth>java helps them a lot doing it :)
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>starting with java or c++ is a bad idea
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>because they require lots of stuff before you can even start explaining the basics
05:50<andythenorth>I still feel dirty though when I occasionally write ‘global: foo'
05:50<@Alberth>andythenorth: that's good, you have to think carefully whether it is worth the troubles
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>that's why i write "import globals" :p
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>then i can write "globals.foo" :p
05:51<@Alberth>from globals import * :p
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: yeah right :p
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08:04<Wolf01>hello o/
08:04<@Alberth>hi hi
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08:16<Wolf01>mmmh, this morning I wanted to continue a work at home, 4 hours of syncronizing files, and I still have to touch a single line of code :|
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10:07<andythenorth>hmm
10:09<@planetmaker>mmh
10:11<LordAro>mhm
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12:31<andythenorth>hrm
12:31<andythenorth>I have a possibly valid case for writing a makefile
12:31<andythenorth>instead of using some python or shell thing
12:31<andythenorth>but the thought of learning make depresses me :P
12:34<andythenorth>maybe I can persuade someone else to do it
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13:25<@Alberth>if you know shellscripts, there are only 3 steps to makefiles
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13:32<andythenorth>there is an unpleasant step called ‘learn make'
13:32<andythenorth>:(
13:34<@Alberth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3393/
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13:43<frosch123>Alberth: but the fun only starts with implicit rules, with double colons, pipes, special targets, recursive invocation ...
13:43<LordAro>easy :)
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13:44<@Alberth>frosch123: sssttt, he'll find out when he understands the 3 steps :p
13:44<frosch123>the worst part is when one rule creates multiple files
13:44<frosch123>i have no figure out yet how to do that correcly
13:44<frosch123>*not
13:44<@Alberth>you can't really do that :(
13:44<frosch123>funny thing is, it works with implicit rules :p
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13:45<@Alberth>It's a pity they didn't use "a b c: ..." for that
13:46<frosch123>i have such a beast at work :p "a b c: d"
13:46<frosch123>it works fine most of the times, but when using "-j" it may happen to be executed in parallel, in which cases the output will be corrupted :p
13:47<frosch123>(i don't care that if the output is done multiple times, it's only a small part of way more; but conflicting writes break it all :p)
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14:03<frosch123>hrmm...
14:04<frosch123>sometimes a single letter is important for a program :/
14:06<juzza1>this works? http://pastebin.com/SAJJpzAJ
14:09<frosch123>likely says there is no rule to make bar.b or something
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14:10<andythenorth>Alberth: that’s the most succinct explanation I’ve seen
14:11<@Alberth>yep, I dropped all the non-basic stuff :)
14:12<andythenorth>every tutorial I’ve seen is focussed on (1) why you need to do this (I know why) (2) syntax (I can look that up) :P
14:13<andythenorth>maybe there is an untapped market for tutorials: [Language] For Special Kind of Dummies
14:14<frosch123>problem with make is that it is done by c programmers :)
14:14<andythenorth>point 3 is the one I never previously understood
14:14<juzza1>frosch123: true, it doesnt work if only bar.b is missing but foo.a isn't
14:14<@Alberth>hmm, skip my first step then, as it explains syntax :p
14:15<andythenorth>point 2 I needed, point 3 is like a revelation
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18:01<Wolf01>'night
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21:45-!-Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-74-73-132-105.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd
22:10-!-Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit []
---Logclosed Sun Jun 01 00:00:42 2014