Back to Home / #openttd / 2014 / 05 / Prev Day | Next Day
#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-05-31

---Logopened Sat May 31 00:00:40 2014
00:06-!-Djohaal [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
00:44-!-KWKdesign [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:45-!-KWKdesign [] has joined #openttd
00:56-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has quit []
00:56-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
00:59-!-pthagnar [] has joined #openttd
01:00-!-kiike [~kiike@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:03-!-kiike [~kiike@] has joined #openttd
01:58-!-tokai|noir [] has joined #openttd
01:58-!-mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ
02:04-!-tokai|mdlx [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:11-!-LSky` [] has joined #openttd
02:13<@planetmaker>moin moin
02:21-!-Snail [] has quit [Quit: Snail]
02:25-!-Snail [] has joined #openttd
02:34-!-steili [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:34-!-Hazzard [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:51-!-Progman [] has joined #openttd
03:32-!-Flygon [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
03:36-!-Flygon [] has joined #openttd
03:40-!-Alberth [~hat@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd
03:40-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
03:47-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
03:51<@Alberth>mornink andy
04:07-!-Snail [] has quit [Quit: Snail]
04:11-!-Pensacola [] has joined #openttd
04:18-!-LSky` [] has quit []
04:20<andythenorth>so are we making nml faster? o_O
04:23<andythenorth>I don’t think I’ll do much more on FIRS until either...
04:23<andythenorth>- faster compile
04:23<andythenorth>- linker
04:23<andythenorth>- or I get better at programming
04:23<andythenorth>the third is a Hard Problem
04:23<andythenorth>the other two are much easier options :P
04:24<andythenorth>FIRS already has support for compiling a single industry, but it’s fragile
04:24<andythenorth>I could improve it, would take about a day
04:24<andythenorth>and it doesn’t benefit any other newgrfs :P
04:26<@Alberth>wouldn't you need the third to do the first two?
04:28<andythenorth>I can do a faster compile with my current fat-fingered skills
04:28<andythenorth>linker is beyond me
04:28<andythenorth>as is Not Making Mistakes Only Found After Compiling
04:29<andythenorth>my ratio of productive code to typos, obiwans, bad thinking etc is low
04:29<andythenorth>and waiting minutes to find each one saps interest
04:31-!-gelignite [] has joined #openttd
04:32<andythenorth>for Iron Horse, I’ve started using some basic compile-time tests in the python stage, before nml is even called
04:34<andythenorth>I am not very clever, so I would probably have approached the whole thing differently
04:34-!-kiike [~kiike@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
04:35<andythenorth>each entity (industry, house, train, object etc) would be an object with full action 0, 2, 3 chain as needed
04:35<andythenorth>then throw each of those into a multiprocessing pool, then link the result
04:35<andythenorth>no global IDs
04:36<andythenorth>global IDs are BAD FEATURE
04:36<andythenorth>or something
04:36<andythenorth>dunno, I’m not good at computer science :P
04:37<Eddi|zuHause>not everything that yo udon't understand is bad :p
04:42<andythenorth>I did do some computer science lectures in one of my degrees
04:42<andythenorth>one of the key lessons was Global Variables Must Never Be Used
04:52<andythenorth>no bites :(
04:59-!-Aristide [~quassel@2a01:e35:2eb9:64b0:e975:90d4:33e4:a0f5] has joined #openttd
05:00<Flygon>I once got a lot of shit from people for trying to put nested if statements in AviSynth
05:00<Flygon>And they insisted I ALWAYS try to do if statements in a specific way
05:01<Flygon>Even if the non-nested version of the method I used worked fine...
05:01<@Alberth>the point being?
05:02<@Alberth>it's called code style, and it's insane by definition
05:02<@Alberth>unless it's your own project, in which case it's the optimal way to code
05:03<andythenorth>I’ve witnessed a large discrepancy between code organised by “there is one true way” and code that delivers successfully for end users
05:03<andythenorth>in my limited experience, which is getting close to 30 years
05:03-!-Midnightmyth [] has joined #openttd
05:04<andythenorth>I’ve definitely seen projects fail because they were being done wrong
05:05<andythenorth>and I’ve definitely seen projects fail because they were being done right
05:05<andythenorth>and in the middle is a happy mess of things that more or less work, and are more or less wrong or right
05:07-!-Aristide [~quassel@2a01:e35:2eb9:64b0:e975:90d4:33e4:a0f5] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
05:09-!-Aristide [~quassel@2a01:e35:2eb9:64b0:e975:90d4:33e4:a0f5] has joined #openttd
05:40<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> one of the key lessons was Global Variables Must Never Be Used <-- that is a common teaching, but it doesn't mean there's never need to access the same data from every place
05:40<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that’s not a very good trash talk answer :(
05:41<andythenorth>stop being so reasonable
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>... especially when the language doesn't have dynamic allocation/a heap anyway
05:46<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the "no global variables" rule is meant to ensure that you have a clean interface to the "outside". this may or may not help with code reuse and/or automatted program analysis
05:47<andythenorth>it’s also bad advice if novice programmers learn it too hard
05:47<andythenorth>they end up doing elaborate shit
05:48<@Alberth>java helps them a lot doing it :)
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>starting with java or c++ is a bad idea
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>because they require lots of stuff before you can even start explaining the basics
05:50<andythenorth>I still feel dirty though when I occasionally write ‘global: foo'
05:50<@Alberth>andythenorth: that's good, you have to think carefully whether it is worth the troubles
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>that's why i write "import globals" :p
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>then i can write "" :p
05:51<@Alberth>from globals import * :p
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: yeah right :p
06:08-!-Brumi [] has joined #openttd
06:28-!-kiike [~kiike@] has joined #openttd
06:32-!-talebowl [] has joined #openttd
06:47-!-kiike [~kiike@] has quit [Quit: rebooting]
06:50-!-MJP [] has joined #openttd
07:11-!-theholyduck [~theholydu@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:27-!-theholyduck [~theholydu@] has joined #openttd
07:30-!-Brumi [] has quit []
07:30-!-pthagnar [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:39-!-theholyduck [~theholydu@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:03-!-Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
08:04<Wolf01>hello o/
08:04<@Alberth>hi hi
08:08-!-Midnightmyth [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:11-!-pthagnar [] has joined #openttd
08:15-!-frosch123 [] has joined #openttd
08:16<Wolf01>mmmh, this morning I wanted to continue a work at home, 4 hours of syncronizing files, and I still have to touch a single line of code :|
08:23-!-yorick [] has joined #openttd
08:32-!-Aristide [~quassel@2a01:e35:2eb9:64b0:e975:90d4:33e4:a0f5] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:36-!-gelignite [] has quit [Quit:]
08:37-!-theholyduck [~theholydu@] has joined #openttd
08:40-!-montalvo [] has joined #openttd
08:56-!-Stimrol [] has joined #openttd
09:12-!-Midnightmyth [] has joined #openttd
09:13-!-SkeedR [] has joined #openttd
09:37-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@] has joined #openttd
10:12-!-Djohaal [] has joined #openttd
10:14-!-Dan9550 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:15-!-LSky` [] has joined #openttd
10:16-!-talebowl [] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
10:30-!-andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
10:47-!-namad7 [] has joined #openttd
11:04-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
11:11-!-Snail [] has joined #openttd
11:49-!-andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
12:24-!-Brumi [] has joined #openttd
12:30-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
12:31<andythenorth>I have a possibly valid case for writing a makefile
12:31<andythenorth>instead of using some python or shell thing
12:31<andythenorth>but the thought of learning make depresses me :P
12:34<andythenorth>maybe I can persuade someone else to do it
12:38-!-Snail [] has quit [Quit: Snail]
12:48-!-Pol [] has joined #openttd
12:53-!-Pensacola [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:05-!-guru3_ [] has joined #openttd
13:06-!-guru3 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:14-!-Hazzard [] has joined #openttd
13:25<@Alberth>if you know shellscripts, there are only 3 steps to makefiles
13:28-!-andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
13:32-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
13:32<andythenorth>there is an unpleasant step called ‘learn make'
13:39-!-Pol [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:43<frosch123>Alberth: but the fun only starts with implicit rules, with double colons, pipes, special targets, recursive invocation ...
13:43<LordAro>easy :)
13:43-!-Snail [] has joined #openttd
13:44-!-MTsPony [] has quit []
13:44<@Alberth>frosch123: sssttt, he'll find out when he understands the 3 steps :p
13:44<frosch123>the worst part is when one rule creates multiple files
13:44<frosch123>i have no figure out yet how to do that correcly
13:44<@Alberth>you can't really do that :(
13:44<frosch123>funny thing is, it works with implicit rules :p
13:45-!-jrambo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:45<@Alberth>It's a pity they didn't use "a b c: ..." for that
13:46<frosch123>i have such a beast at work :p "a b c: d"
13:46<frosch123>it works fine most of the times, but when using "-j" it may happen to be executed in parallel, in which cases the output will be corrupted :p
13:47<frosch123>(i don't care that if the output is done multiple times, it's only a small part of way more; but conflicting writes break it all :p)
13:56-!-MTsPony [] has joined #openttd
13:59-!-andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
14:03-!-Djohaal_ [~Djohaal@] has joined #openttd
14:04<frosch123>sometimes a single letter is important for a program :/
14:06<juzza1>this works?
14:09<frosch123>likely says there is no rule to make bar.b or something
14:09-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
14:10-!-Djohaal [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:10<andythenorth>Alberth: that’s the most succinct explanation I’ve seen
14:11<@Alberth>yep, I dropped all the non-basic stuff :)
14:12<andythenorth>every tutorial I’ve seen is focussed on (1) why you need to do this (I know why) (2) syntax (I can look that up) :P
14:13<andythenorth>maybe there is an untapped market for tutorials: [Language] For Special Kind of Dummies
14:14<frosch123>problem with make is that it is done by c programmers :)
14:14<andythenorth>point 3 is the one I never previously understood
14:14<juzza1>frosch123: true, it doesnt work if only bar.b is missing but foo.a isn't
14:14<@Alberth>hmm, skip my first step then, as it explains syntax :p
14:15<andythenorth>point 2 I needed, point 3 is like a revelation
14:19-!-talebowl [~delltvgat@] has joined #openttd
14:27-!-steili [] has joined #openttd
14:28-!-pthagnar [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
14:38-!-talebowl [~delltvgat@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:42-!-andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
14:49-!-talebowl [~delltvgat@] has joined #openttd
15:03-!-oskari89 [] has joined #openttd
15:05-!-Aristide [] has joined #openttd
15:07-!-Haube [] has joined #openttd
15:08-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
15:33-!-andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
15:43-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
15:46-!-andythenorth [] has quit []
15:49-!-Snail [] has quit [Quit: Snail]
15:51-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
15:58-!-Alberth [~hat@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd []
16:06-!-glx [] has joined #openttd
16:06-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
16:08-!-steili [] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
16:26-!-montalvo_ [] has joined #openttd
16:29-!-montalvo_ [] has quit []
16:29-!-montalvo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:40-!-andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
16:55-!-Haube [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
16:56-!-Gethiox [~gethiox@2001:41d0:52:500::6c4] has joined #openttd
17:00-!-Pereba [] has joined #openttd
17:33-!-SkeedR [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:40-!-KenjiE20 [kenjie20@] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.2]
17:41-!-KenjiE20 [kenjie20@] has joined #openttd
18:01-!-Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
18:04-!-Snail [] has joined #openttd
18:25-!-Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:28-!-LSky` [] has quit []
18:41-!-Midnightmyth [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:03-!-jrambo [] has joined #openttd
19:08-!-talebowl [~delltvgat@] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
19:36-!-frosch123 [] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn]
20:09-!-oskari89 [] has quit []
20:19-!-Gethiox [~gethiox@2001:41d0:52:500::6c4] has quit [Quit: Gethiox]
20:25-!-Gethiox [~gethiox@2001:41d0:52:500::6c4] has joined #openttd
20:41-!-Aristide [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:41-!-MJP [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:42-!-jjavaholic [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:45-!-Snail [] has quit [Quit: Snail]
20:56-!-KWKdesign [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:56-!-KWKdesign [] has joined #openttd
21:27-!-glx [] has quit [Quit: Bye]
21:28-!-fkinglag [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:29-!-Pereba [] has quit [Quit: AdiIRC -> <- *I* use it, so it must be good!]
21:34-!-yorick [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:41-!-fkinglag [] has joined #openttd
21:45-!-Snail [] has joined #openttd
22:10-!-Brumi [] has quit []
---Logclosed Sun Jun 01 00:00:42 2014