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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-06-06

---Logopened Fri Jun 06 00:00:49 2014
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02:38<V453000> ball of steel roller coaster tycoon anybody? :D
02:42<V453000>thanks :)
02:44<V453000>the static water is a bit odd, but having water without borders is not very normal either :)
02:44<V453000>might animate it someday(tm)
02:45<Pikka>static water?
02:45<Supercheese>presumably it's not animated
02:45<Supercheese>from the .png we can't tell
02:46<Pikka>I don't see any water though :)
02:46<@planetmaker>V453000, water has always been without borders :)
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02:46<@planetmaker>moin also :)
02:46<V453000>Pikka: the glass-like box at the end of the belt/start of the slide
02:46<V453000>it has the glowing ball in it
02:46<@planetmaker>I like how the balls are then piped around to the storage box :)
02:47<@planetmaker>though it actually might be funny to do the whole thing reverse
02:47<@planetmaker>sucking-in the spheres and spitting out cubes
02:47<V453000>myeah :D perhaps on some april fools edition pm :P
02:47<@planetmaker>and the powa things is for cooling
02:48<V453000>what is great is that I can now make an iron ore mine made of mainly boxes :D
02:49<V453000>-> easy, nice, special
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02:51<Pikka>you should make an irony ore mine
02:52<V453000>how does it look?
02:52<Pikka>like the opposite of what it is, obviously
02:54<V453000>pond with a frog in the middle?
02:54<V453000>with a slug riding a boat?
02:55<Pikka>that's more of a non-sequitur mine, I would have thought
02:57<V453000>hm :)
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03:18<Supercheese>Not sure about that first question
03:18<@planetmaker>sounds like a nice theme, V453000 :)
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03:18<Supercheese>I don't think the NML vars are quite there
03:18<V453000>what do you mean pm? :)
03:19<@planetmaker>a pont with a frog and a slug in a boat :)
03:19<Supercheese>I don't think vehicles have a current-slope variable
03:19<V453000>mhm :)
03:19<@planetmaker>just wonder what industry it is, but it sounds good :)
03:19<@planetmaker>maybe an alternative farm :P
03:19<V453000>Pikka suggested irony mine
03:19<V453000>hm yeah I could make fish pond :D
03:19<V453000>fruit/vegetables is boaring
03:20<Supercheese>Orchard & Piggery is boaring
03:20<@planetmaker>wild life refuge might provide boaring ;)
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03:22<Supercheese>Pun farm
03:22<Supercheese>Would go well with Irony Mine
03:23<@planetmaker>hehe, yeah :)
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03:28<@planetmaker>Alternatively the Irony mine is an easter egg... produces flies which can be delivered to towns. Or food factories. The meads add extra proteins, thus increase production ;)
03:29<@planetmaker>or it produces midgets. Which make yeti work harder. As only when they stay in motion they won#t be stung
03:33<V453000>I will just say I will think about easter eggs like that later :P
03:40<Supercheese>Easter Egg farm?
03:40<Supercheese>Requires: Bunnies
03:41<@planetmaker>delivers: eggs and bunny meat? :D
03:41<@planetmaker>but does it really require bunnies? Not rather grass. Or weed? :P
03:42<Supercheese>eh, am tired
03:43<Supercheese>dunno, maybe it requires puns? Punnies?
03:43<Supercheese>Punny Rabbits
03:43<@planetmaker>fits the irony mine
03:43<@planetmaker>punny rabbits can be dug up there
03:43<V453000>planetmaker: so the RVs -could- be sloped when going up/downhill?
03:44<@planetmaker>in principle yes
03:44<Supercheese>Wonder how that code would go
03:44<@planetmaker>hm... though... that only works for articulated
03:44<Supercheese>not for single vehicles?
03:44<@planetmaker>maybe there's another way. Dunno right now
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09:33<NGC982>When using the -G flag on a dedicated Linux server, does the flag (random seed) replace the defined value in the config, if a certain config is used with -c?
09:36<NGC982>I run my public servers with a defined restart_year and reload_cfg. Since the config is defined by -c, the server restarts the map with the exact seed in the config file.
09:36<NGC982>It would be nice if it changed it itself, or used a random seed when the server automaticly restarts.
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12:18<frosch123>V453000: can you fit in a guano mine or something?
12:18<frosch123>and a factory which processes guano into luxury goods or so
12:18<V453000>wat iz guano
12:19<@Alberth>lots of polishing :)
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12:24<@Alberth>playing with nuts 0.7.1 in sub-tropical is really a joy, such beautiful loading stages of the rails wagons
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>isn't guano like bat shit?
12:43<@planetmaker>birds or bats
12:43<frosch123>TrueBrain: blathijs: heffer: what's your experience with projects using cmake to generate makefiles? in the purely hypothetical case that ottd would replace its configure script with cmake: would you party, scream, shake heads? or just moan on having to invest work into changing something just for the sake of changing it?
12:44<TrueBrain>I wouldnt care one way or the other; as long as ./configure && make works, I am fine
12:45<@planetmaker>it wouldn't
12:45<TrueBrain>I would only be terribly sad that after 5+ years my custom written configure would die a silent death ...
12:45<@planetmaker>cmake && make would be the replacement or similar
12:45<TrueBrain>it has been so awesome .....
12:46<TrueBrain>at least allow me to say a few words before you commit such thing!
12:46<frosch123>planetmaker: well, there could still be a configure script which just calls cmake :p
12:46<@planetmaker>he :P
12:46<frosch123>TrueBrain: answer to fs#6036, if you have a proper answer :)
12:46<frosch123>only contact with cmake i have is widelands
12:46<frosch123>but they also use bazaar :p
12:46*LordAro hears cmake, becomes intrigued
12:47<TrueBrain>owh, you arent writing the cmake patch
12:47<TrueBrain>that changes things a bit
12:47<TrueBrain>you have to examine every target we support (or silently support) for proper funcitonality
12:47<TrueBrain>that might be rather tricky
12:47<frosch123>that's as much as i figured :) lots of work
12:47<@planetmaker>I'm not too intruiged by such change. But in all honesty, most of that comes from the fact I'd have to learn cmake while I understand the current one
12:47<TrueBrain>not only patch wise ..
12:48<TrueBrain>and in the end, you then have to wonder if the effort is worth the gain
12:48<frosch123>yup, all farms, all distros, ...
12:48<TrueBrain>mostly platforms like DOS and win9x
12:48<TrueBrain>would they still work?
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like something that would have a hard time being worth anything
12:48<TrueBrain>but, in all honestly .. the current system is fucked up retarded (and yes, I wrote it, so I can say that)
12:48<TrueBrain>fully custom written
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>but nobody ever propeerly introduced cmake to me
12:49<TrueBrain>it is not really ... friendly
12:49<TrueBrain>some of his points are invalid btw
12:49<TrueBrain>like the "make mrproper" point
12:49<@planetmaker>if he wants cmake, he should make a patch. But I also understand, we should give an indication whether we would lean more towards or against such change, if he wrote it
12:50<TrueBrain>it will take him a lot of time to proof it works on all our current targets; I wonder if he is willing to invest that time
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>like, when i get a source package of some kde stuff, which generally has more stuff in it than i actually want to change/compile i can't really figure out how to compile only the part that i want changed
12:50<frosch123>planetmaker: i value the opinion of package maintainers and people maintaining the compile farm higher than anything :)
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12:51<@planetmaker>fair enough reasoning
12:51<TrueBrain>it will be a long road to walk
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: it's perfectly normal to think "wtf was that idiot thinking?!?" when you read 5 year old code from you :p
12:52<TrueBrain>even 1 week old code triggers that
12:52<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: it's not perl at least
12:52<TrueBrain>(yes Xaroth, I am beating you to that punchline)
12:52<TrueBrain>I think the most important question to ask: if a target doesnt support CMake, than what?
12:52<TrueBrain>drop the target?
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>drop osx!
12:54<@planetmaker>keep that in ./configure? :)
12:54<TrueBrain>double-configure system?
12:54<TrueBrain>sounds like a horrible idea :P
12:54<@planetmaker>yup :P
12:54<TrueBrain>it is the reason this is written in bash btw
12:54<TrueBrain>to ensure even strange targets can be supported
12:55<V453000>Alberth: (:
13:06<@Alberth>in my experience cmake mostly targets package builders rather than developers, you don't have "make clean", config variables are a mess, simple things like toggling a debug build are very hard to do unless you know the magic word exactly
13:06<LordAro>you can relatively easily add your own make targets though
13:07<@Alberth>but you hardly ever need to do that
13:08<LordAro>oh, i'm not defending cmake :p
13:08<@Alberth>ie it targets package builders rather than its regular users
13:09<LordAro>it's relatively horrid to write anything other than simple stuff with it
13:09<@Alberth>and so far its easy cross platform support didn't bring a windows executable of freerct
13:09<LordAro>but it's the "best" cross-platform stuff out there
13:09<LordAro>Alberth: that's not due to the cmake ;)
13:09<LordAro>the cmake is fine, windows is the issue :p
13:10<@Alberth>isn't cmake supposed to handle that differences?
13:10<LordAro>it can't handle the fact that windows doesn't support posix properly
13:10<@planetmaker>it can't solve the missing package manager for you, I guess
13:10<@Alberth>ie it claims to be cross platform
13:10<LordAro>or that
13:11<@planetmaker>But then, everything else also supports standard make rather unmodified
13:11<@Alberth>didn't people have trouble with sdl libraries? clearly a compiler configure problem, it seems to me
13:11<@planetmaker>the same configure script works on linux, bsd and osx really
13:13<LordAro>i did come across bsdbuild a couple of months ago: - a sort of configure script, but premake (lua build system) can use it to create VS files
13:13<LordAro>so i'm told
13:13<LordAro>i've not tried it myself
13:25<mist>Is there an easy way to replace old railroad with new?
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13:25<mist>as in railroad->mono->maglev
13:26<frosch123>using an universal railtype
13:26<mist>is there such a thing? =O
13:27<frosch123>in newgrf there is every nonsense
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26631 /trunk/src/lang (6 files) (2014-06-06 17:45:44 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan - 57 changes by juanjo
13:45<@DorpsGek>english_AU - 1 changes by mrtux
13:46<@DorpsGek>german - 1 changes by planetmaker
13:46<@DorpsGek>hebrew - 24 changes by oofnik
13:46<@DorpsGek>italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
13:46<@DorpsGek>russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
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14:18<@Alberth>hi hi wolf and andy
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14:19*Wolf01 checks his spare 320GB HDD and says: "tomorrow is the day"
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14:47<andythenorth>what is?
14:47*andythenorth looks on svn
14:47<andythenorth>oh a release :)
14:47<andythenorth>and some translations
14:47<andythenorth>nothing saying “ships with multiple cargos” :O
14:47*andythenorth is shocked
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14:51<Wolf01>I want submarines with threads
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like something V453000 would make
14:56<blathijs>frosch123: I usually frown at cmake - on one hand because I simply do not know much about it, but also because it's not very easy to work with if you don't know much about it
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15:01<andythenorth>is there an objection to ships with multiple holds? And if not, should there be? o_O
15:03<Supercheese>"it requires lots of coding work"
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the question is wrongly asked.
15:06<andythenorth>ask it better then...
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>like "is there an objection to world peace"
15:07<andythenorth>but there are people working on world peace
15:07<andythenorth>also, what are the gameplay benefits of world peace?
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>you need to have an idea, a concept, and an implementation
15:07<Wolf01>less employment
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>each of these can and will have objections against them
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>the work on overcoming these objections is equally important as the work on the idea/concept/implementation itself
15:10<andythenorth>what’s the difference between idea and concept? o_O
15:10<@Alberth>the suggestions forum versus the development forum?
15:11<andythenorth>ok so I have no real concept for multi-cargo ships
15:11<andythenorth>but the idea has come up from multiple people
15:11<@Alberth>the problem is where to put the extra holds
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: idea: "i should go to new york", concept: "i should reserve a hotel and buy a plane ticket"
15:11<@Alberth>aircraft only work due to the shadow sprite, afaik
15:12<andythenorth>well I wonder, 2 holds, or n holds?
15:13<@Alberth>32 should be sufficient :p
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>640k ought to be enough for anybody
15:14<andythenorth>it is enough
15:14<andythenorth>as long as you have it over and over again
15:14<andythenorth>2 is enough for aircraft
15:14<@Alberth>having a flat 32 bit address space is very useful at times :p
15:15<@Alberth>aircraft are not that long in the air
15:15<andythenorth>2 output cargos is enough for industries
15:15<andythenorth>3 input cargos
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>aircraft are horrible
15:15<andythenorth>no argument
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know why people like them so much
15:15*andythenorth hates having no argument
15:15<andythenorth>especially when it’s Eddi|zuHause :(
15:15<@Alberth>it's quite likely that if you can do 2, you can do n
15:16<andythenorth>likely != desirable :P
15:16<@Alberth>sure, it was "can" in the technical sense :)
15:16<@Alberth>just like you can have 4096x4096 maps
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>weren't there like patches for 16kx16k out there?
15:18*Alberth has no doubt there are
15:19<andythenorth>my concept is 2 cargos per ship
15:19<andythenorth>others may vary
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it'd be pretty easy to use the articulated parts callback for cargo holds. but then you have a problem with refitting, because in the current system, articulated parts can only be refitted as a whole
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>if you use articulated parts, then there is no reason to limit it to 2
15:20<andythenorth>are they real parts, or just virtual?
15:20<andythenorth>i.e. do they have a sprite chain
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>they would naturally have a sprite chain, but the program could suppress it if it wanted to
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>but you could use them for cargo graphics
15:23<frosch123>maybe do not load the cargo, but just just the cdist link graph for an estimate what to unload :p
15:23<frosch123>a ship is big
15:23<frosch123>sometime you lose stuff, sometimes you find stuff
15:23<frosch123>noone knows what's loaded
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i'm pretty sure there is huge amount of logistics data on which container is currently on which ship in the world
15:24<andythenorth>I wondered about storing the cargo in the map
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: then you have no idea what "the map" is and how it works
15:25<andythenorth>he :)
15:25<frosch123>andythenorth: colonization does that
15:25<frosch123>at least with units
15:25<frosch123>if you overtake another ship with an empty one, you take over the units loaded on the other one
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: cargo is stored in the cargo pool. the vehicle has pointers into this cargo pool
15:26<frosch123>really annoying :p
15:26<andythenorth>keep the cargo on a tile, mark it as owned by a vehicle
15:26<andythenorth>oic :P
15:26*andythenorth gets schooled
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: only pirate ships take over cargo
15:26<frosch123>i mean the case when both ships are yours
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>erm, yes. old civilization-type games had that behaviour
15:27<frosch123>the first ship that leaves the tile just takes the first units
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>because the command of the other units is "go along with the next ship that passes by
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>i think they changed that in civ3
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>at least civ4 has "board this ship" commands
15:28<frosch123>yes, civ3 has those
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>and civ5 doesn't have transport ships anymore
15:32<frosch123>how do you play islands?
15:32<frosch123>or are then no?
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>each unit turns into a ship when it enters a water tile
15:32<frosch123>unlimited ships?
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>(spending all its remaining movement points)
15:33<frosch123>you can just scout with a worker or something?
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>you have to research shipbuilding first
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>and astronomy if you want to go on ocean
15:34<frosch123>yeah, that hasn't changed since civ 1 :)
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>a worker on water can actually defend itself
15:34<frosch123>except in civ1 it was attached to unit types
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>it still is. warships come in "coast-only" and "ocean-going" varieties
15:39<andythenorth>we should research astronomy in openttd
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15:39<andythenorth>also we should put some kind of pay-to-play crap in
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15:40<Eddi|zuHause>weren't you like "ocean speed for ships is a BAD FEATURE" a few weeks ago?
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15:42<andythenorth>I can’t remember
15:42*andythenorth is changeable
15:42<andythenorth>like the weather
15:43<Zuu>Hello LordAro
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15:44<LordAro>different channel, but o/ :)
15:44<Zuu>I didn't got voice over there. ;-)
15:45<LordAro>you should :p
15:45<LordAro>you auth'd properly?
15:45<Zuu>I did but too late. Maybe that's why.
15:46<Zuu>Anyway TTF has arrived to a bahnhof :-p
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15:56<Eddi|zuHause>why would you bring a car to a train station?
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16:04<Zuu>No bahnhof is my network name.
16:06<Zuu>planetmaker has been missing it.
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16:38*andythenorth plays ottd
16:38<andythenorth>is fun
16:38<andythenorth>also bye
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22:27-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
22:27<Flygon>Dumb question
22:28<Flygon>IS the recommended method of making irl heightmaps (and more specifically, scenarios) still the MicroDEM method?
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23:00<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think anyone ever made a statistic over preferrence of heightmap creation methods
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---Logclosed Sat Jun 07 00:00:50 2014