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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-06-16

---Logopened Mon Jun 16 00:00:04 2014
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04:26<V453000>no hi
04:27<Bugra>can i ask you something
04:27<@planetmaker>dunno. You could just try
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04:28<@planetmaker>V453000, you can't decide that ;) You can only decide on the answers :P
04:28<Bugra>i was created dedicated server. but it is create on default settings. I search on internet how can i set settings, but i can found only few settings console command.
04:28<@planetmaker>unless you're the same person :P
04:29<@planetmaker>Bugra, there's an openttd.cfg
04:29<@planetmaker>those settings will be used for newly automatically created maps
04:29<V453000>planetmaker: I can say NO regardless of the question, saying YES is however indeed relative to the aquestion P
04:29<@planetmaker>or you upload savegames to the server. Then the settings they're created with will be used
04:30<Bugra>hmm, savegame.. is good. i ll try
04:30<@planetmaker>it's actually the way we at openttdcoop handle things
04:31<@planetmaker>if you want a server with a certain 'scenario' and always the same settings, fixing your openttd.cfg might be the better choice, though
04:32<Bugra>ok i ll try. but ask you 1 more.
04:33<Bugra>is biggest server company using speciel script ?
04:33<Bugra>like "!cv" is not working my server
04:33<Xaroth|Work>because that's not in a 'standard' server :)
04:36<@planetmaker>what's the "biggest server company"? :)
04:37<@planetmaker>and yes, people can use custom scripts, some also use a modified openttd even as server
04:37<Bugra>i think etc..
04:37<Bugra>hmm, where can i find some scripts?
04:37<@planetmaker>they probably use everything... modified openttd server, game scripts and admin port
04:38<@planetmaker>at coop we just use soap as admin port client
04:38<V453000>soap iz great
04:38<@planetmaker>it's a supybot plug-in to allow administration via IRC and offers some additional commands
04:38<@planetmaker>written in python
04:38<@planetmaker>and open source
04:39<@planetmaker>I'm pretty sure that bt's stuff is not available
04:40<Bugra>ok thank you, so do you speak turkish? who translate to turkish?
04:40<Bugra>i like translation. is perfect
04:40<@planetmaker>some translators do
04:40<Bugra>i'm using turkish
04:41<Bugra>it's perfect.
04:41<@planetmaker>so people can conveniently translate
04:41<@planetmaker>and there's also as translation service for newgrfs and game scripts
04:41<@planetmaker>glad to hear that our Turkish translators do a good job :)
04:42<Bugra>:) ok thank you & bye bye
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05:12<toobored>planetmaker: is based on anything or just a custom web app?
05:12<@planetmaker>custom web application
05:12<@planetmaker> is another. But that's open source
05:13<@planetmaker>and it's the spiritual successor to it
05:14<@planetmaker>but both are written by "our" developers
05:14<@planetmaker>written in python
05:15<toobored>nice :) I'm asking cause a friend of mine owns the company behind transifex
05:15<toobored>another open source popular tool for translations
05:16<toobored>or at least it used to be open source...
05:16<@planetmaker>doesn't look particularily open source to me
05:18<toobored>yeah they went cloud
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05:23<@planetmaker>seems to be the way with a number of good OOS products. Similar to rhodecode which now has a strange license
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07:44<Eddi|zuHause>why do i bother reporting posts being in the wrong forum when then no moderator moves it?
07:45<__ln__>because you're an idealist?
07:49<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, because the posting alone does not allow the conclusion you draw
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i sat before it 5 minutes trying to make sense out of it, then i looked at other posts the user has made.
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07:53<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause2, I agree that it *likely* is the wrong forum. But not sure... so I'm actually waiting for that user to himself to say so
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10:16*andythenorth is on holiday
10:17<V453000>make grafix
10:17<V453000>on holiday
10:18<andythenorth>want to make a partial newgrf compile
10:18<V453000>wtf that is
10:21*andythenorth wonders what grfcodec will do with multiple fragments of nfo, concatenated to one file
10:21*andythenorth suspects it will barf on sprite numbers
10:24<andythenorth>is renum still a thing? o_O
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>no, it's called nforenum for like 5 years now
10:26<@planetmaker>hi andythenorth :)
10:27<@planetmaker>andythenorth, grfcodec will not care about sprite numbers
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>it's part of grfcodec, anyway
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>and grfcodec will probably complain, but process it anyway
10:27<@planetmaker>andythenorth, you should definitely talk to alberth and frosch and what's possibly hiding somewhere on their disks. Dunno
10:28<andythenorth>I should? o_O
10:29<@planetmaker>I think it might be useful. Dunno. I haven't looked at their disks either
10:29<@planetmaker>but I think it's a thing they like to see addressed, too. So no need to invent three implementations :)
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think anything is in a remotely finished state on their disks
10:30<@planetmaker>I don't think that either. Nor do I believe it is on andy's disk
10:31<andythenorth>I have some finished notes :P
10:31<@planetmaker>hence this is the time where coordination might prove useful. In comparing notes :P
10:31<andythenorth>is all I have
10:32<andythenorth>I’m trying to make a stupid version to teach myself
10:32<andythenorth>it involves passing around missing constants using simple json
10:32<andythenorth>it’s not a proper linker
10:32<@planetmaker> is a proof-of-concept from yesterday to make a fast(er) lexer for nml. But that's different than splitting, of course
10:33<andythenorth>moves it to c?
10:33<@planetmaker>the lexer, yes
10:33<@planetmaker>some part, the one which eats time
10:33<andythenorth>how is that being done? standalone c app, or some kind of c extension to python?
10:34<@planetmaker>it's a c extension to python
10:34<@planetmaker>see the paste :)
10:35<@planetmaker>anyway, it's a different topic than partial compiles
10:36<andythenorth>although it might be so much faster that partial compiles are moot
10:36<@planetmaker>interesting tid-bit is also that FIRS is by far the biggest NewGRF project in terms of LOC
10:37<@planetmaker>more LOC than OpenTTD itself ;)
10:37<andythenorth>the nml LOC?
10:37<@planetmaker>yes, the pre-processed NML
10:38<@planetmaker>short of 400k or so
10:38<andythenorth>did you strip pointless whitespace? :)
10:39<@planetmaker>it's still a 13M nml text file as input
10:39<@planetmaker>so partial compiles - whatever language - might prove useful there
10:39*andythenorth learns about header files in c++
10:39<andythenorth>so the c++ compilers aren’t magic?
10:39<andythenorth>you actually have to declare classes and constants and stuff?
10:41<andythenorth>so my idea of passing stuff to nmlc using something like a constants file
10:41<andythenorth>not so stupid
10:42<@planetmaker>maybe not :)
10:44<andythenorth>strings are the puzzle afaict
10:45<andythenorth>I can’t figure out if putting them into numeric constants should work or not
10:49*andythenorth also wonders if FIRS spritelayouts are staggeringly inefficient
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10:51<andythenorth>planetmaker: if I strip duplicates, FIRS LOC drops from 380k to 65k
10:51<@planetmaker>what kind of duplicates? Like } and { ?
10:51<@planetmaker>but each is functional :)
10:51<andythenorth>duplicate lines, it’s a text wrangler feature
10:51<andythenorth>I don’t know it if breaks the compile
10:52<andythenorth>there’s a lot of GPL notice repetition :)
10:52<andythenorth>for starters
10:53<andythenorth>if I could be bothered, those could go into chameleon comments and get dropped
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11:07*andythenorth might bbl
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12:32<slaca>could anyone give me a link to download tahoma bold font?
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12:52<andythenorth>no alberth?
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12:53<andythenorth>like magic :P
12:53<@Alberth>hi hi
12:53<andythenorth>you should read the log :P
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12:55<andythenorth>start of a patch to pass constants to nmlc in a json file
12:55<andythenorth>works, incomplete
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>... and people thought my approach was the wrong way...
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13:01<@Alberth>no worries, I still think adding comment support to nml to have a cutting point is the wrong solution :)
13:03<frosch123>andy is quite a magician
13:03<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: are you actually going to write any code to fetch all the constants? o_O
13:03<frosch123>he can summon people at will and jinxed a former train game player into a drawing machine
13:03<andythenorth>I did?
13:03<frosch123>who else?
13:03<frosch123>do you think he drank too much beer?
13:04<andythenorth>are we talking about V?
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>what do you mean "am i going to write code"?
13:04<andythenorth>I mean, do you have a solution to getting the constants?
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>you have a code generator?
13:04<andythenorth>I can only think of (1) walk the entire codebase on every compile or (2) pass the constants in
13:05<andythenorth>I don’t like this json route, seems janky
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>you need to make a mapping of nml-string-names to nfo-string-ids, and filter out ones that do not need any id
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>then you store/cache that somewhere
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>to build the cache, you need the entire code base
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>you can only make partial compiles when the cache is valid
13:09<andythenorth>and how to invalidate the cache?
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>by modification date, like all make stuff?
13:09<andythenorth>mapping of which constants are in which file?
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>in a file of your chosing
13:09<andythenorth>and how to pass that to nmlc?
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>parameter? default name? nmlc has image caches and stuff
13:11<andythenorth>right, so that’s what I’m doing, only backwards
13:11<andythenorth>and I happened to pick json
13:12<@Alberth>it's useful for experiments, imho
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>i'd probably have used pickle, but that's an implementation decision, not a design decision
13:14<andythenorth>I’m kind of stumped on the string stuff
13:14<andythenorth>it’s roughly the same interface tbh
13:14<andythenorth>Alberth: so a faster lexer? o_O
13:15<@Alberth>I hope so
13:16<andythenorth>hmm, I’m not sure which constants it’s safe to pass in
13:16<@Alberth>it eats most time for FIRS currently
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13:16<andythenorth>maybe I just get this basically working, and someone else finds out what dangerous things I’m introducing :P
13:16<@Alberth>scanning a 13MB string in Python is not very nice :)
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>i think i never got around to making the partial-compile-behaviour of CETS switchable via makefile
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>like, detect whether nmlc supports actionC, and switch to single-file mode automatically
13:20<andythenorth>my patch has an extra-constants parameter now
13:20<andythenorth>there is a wrinkle with paths I guess
13:25<andythenorth>maybe I could pass the path, not the filename
13:25<andythenorth>maybe a constants dir?
13:25<andythenorth>or a caches dir
13:26<andythenorth>I can’t see how I can write a constants parser to create a cache, without it being as slow as, or slower than the existing parse
13:26<andythenorth>my plan was to write out explicitly the constants I want, because I have a code generator
13:26<andythenorth>but that seems Not Proper
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13:40<andythenorth>and if you have an Iron Horse checkout,
13:40<andythenorth>nmlc --extra-constants=extra_constants.json --nfo box_car_brit_gen_1.nfo generated/nml/box_car_brit_gen_2.nml
13:40<andythenorth>I suspect the cargo table could be passed as nml, and then let the nml parser deal with it
13:40<andythenorth>ditto railtypes
13:40<andythenorth>I’m not really sure what the best approach is tbh
13:40<andythenorth>a single constants file is appealing
13:41<andythenorth>but reusing the existing stuff seems more correct
13:41<andythenorth>oops, also needs
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26649 trunk/src/lang/norwegian_bokmal.txt (2014-06-16 17:45:36 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>estonian - 1 changes by
13:45<@DorpsGek>norwegian_bokmal - 29 changes by cuthbert
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14:18<andythenorth>can’t find the cargo table parsing
14:18<andythenorth>I’ll do it in json :P
14:19<Wolf01>mmmh what's all that balloon related stuff I see everywhere? At the shopping mall it seem to be at the museum of soccer
14:21<andythenorth>hmm hg is not git :(
14:27<@Alberth>luckily it is not
14:28<andythenorth>oh good, I’ve crashed python again :P
14:31<andythenorth>can anyone else get to work with nmlc?
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14:34<andythenorth>nmlc doesn’t seem to return cleanly
14:35<@Alberth> ?
14:36<andythenorth>I was using
14:36<andythenorth>['nmlc', '--extra-constants=extra_constants.json', '--nfo box_car_brit_gen_1.nfo generated/nml/box_car_brit_gen_2.nml'])
14:36<andythenorth>but it hangs (waiting for a return I assume)
14:37<andythenorth>actually that was the wrong paste
14:37<andythenorth>['nmlc', '--extra-constants=extra_constants.json', '--nfo', 'box_car_brit_gen_1.nfo', 'generated/nml/box_car_brit_gen_2.nml'])
14:37<@Alberth>'--nfo=box_car_brit_gen_1.nfo' 'generated/...'
14:38<@Alberth>something like that should do the trick :)
14:39*andythenorth is so dumb :P
14:42<@Alberth>missing a space happens, after you did that once or twice, you'll remember :)
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14:52<andythenorth>well that would put an end to my battery fast
14:52<andythenorth>running nmlc in a multiprocessing pool :P
14:53<andythenorth>blocks all 4 thread units
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15:00<andythenorth>I have a patched nmlc, that makes it harder to do speed tests quickly :P
15:00<andythenorth>can’t compare the baseline
15:01<@Alberth>in hg?
15:01<@Alberth>then you can hg diff > p.patch; hg revert
15:02<andythenorth>that’s how I ‘branch’ in hg :)
15:02<@Alberth>I tend to do hg clone trunk new_branch :)
15:12<peter1139>git checkout -b new_branch
15:12<peter1139>Because I know how to use branches with the tools I use ;P
15:13<frosch123>are you using a shared .git directory between multiple checkouts, or do you really only have one checkout?
15:14<frosch123>s/checkout/working copy/ or whatever
15:14<peter1139>One checkout, no need for any more.
15:14<peter1139>And loads of old svn checkouts cos... yeah, svn...
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15:15<@Alberth>svn also has branches and svn switch
15:15<frosch123>well, i consider it quite cumbersome to only use one working tree and switch it between brancehs
15:16<frosch123>i rather have multiple working trees for each branch
15:16<frosch123>independent of svn/git/hg
15:16<@Alberth>I usually have 1 working tree for each branch
15:17<frosch123>but ok, at work i also have at most 2 working trees, because i actually finish stuff :p
15:17<@Alberth>I think I have 4 atm :)
15:17<frosch123>you only need multiple branches as long as you pretend to be working on them :p
15:17<toobored>mother... what have i done
15:17<@Alberth>some are blocked on further progress
15:19<@Alberth>toobored: created an insanely large platform selection junction?
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15:21<toobored>Alberth: I don't know what I have built and how to call this.. all i want now is a copy-paste-and-mirror button
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15:49<andythenorth>does devzone support git repos?
15:51<@planetmaker>theoretically. But it comes without any support. Most notably no translations, no build support. Unless you write that yourself
15:52<andythenorth>I should just learn hg properly
15:52<@planetmaker>And I really have no love for maintaining all that for two VCS
15:54<@Alberth>fyi, /me is not git-compatible
15:54*planetmaker isn't either
15:54<@planetmaker>I tried. git failed ;)
15:57<@Alberth>hmm, 10 o clock, and I only established nmlc doesn't work any more after I demolished its scanner :)
15:57*andythenorth is surprisingly git compatible
15:57<andythenorth>I thought I’d break it a lot
15:57<andythenorth>but not
15:58<@Alberth>commandline git?
16:03<andythenorth>there’s another way? o_O
16:04<andythenorth>I just tread very carefully
16:04<@Alberth>hmm, is there reason to use utf-8 encoding for NML source code?
16:04<@Alberth>comments perhaps
16:05<frosch123>town names?
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16:06<@planetmaker>Alberth, strings must be utf8
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16:07<@Alberth>let's ignore that for a while :)
16:07<@planetmaker>or alternatively ascii, if you want to omit the thorn char. But I don't want to go there, into the encoding hell
16:10<toobored>is there any # for game related questions?
16:10<@Alberth>I built lex for pure ascii (technically it's 8 bit), and not for unicode
16:10<@Alberth>toobored: yes, #openttd usually if it is about openttd
16:11<@planetmaker>it's this channel, toobored
16:11<V453000>if you want advanced gameplay, then #openttdcoop
16:11<toobored>a nice. I hate interrupting tech discussions...
16:11<frosch123>Alberth: that's good enough
16:11<frosch123>utf8 is only used in quoted strings, isn't it?
16:12<@planetmaker>for lexing that might make no(t much) difference
16:12<frosch123>so, they are preserved in 8 bit ascii
16:12<@Alberth>if it is just string literals (ie "...." thingies) a special case can be constructed
16:12<@planetmaker>identifiers might look differently
16:12<toobored>V453000: nothing advanced... I just discovered that splitting a track to 3 tracks doesn't work :(
16:12<toobored>the first one never gets selected.
16:12<V453000>what do you mean
16:13<@Alberth>well, you get BOM stuff as well with crappy editors
16:13<@Alberth>but for now, I'll just abort on such things :)
16:14<@Alberth>let's have a proof of concept first :)
16:14<@Alberth>toobored: picture says a 1000 words in such cases
16:14<toobored>V453000: upper right
16:14<toobored>the incoming main line splits to 3.
16:15<@planetmaker>the subsequent paths are not equal
16:15<V453000>well sure toobored you need to give trains a reason to split :)
16:15<@planetmaker>path finder consider the total path to the destination and use shortest
16:15<V453000>if the other paths are still being seen as "not good enough", it will continue use the shortest as pm says
16:15<@planetmaker>shortest includes considering other trains, signals, turns, bridges, tunnels, railtypes...
16:15<toobored>it doesn't check if the station is available?
16:16<toobored>or it just computes up to the next signal?
16:16<@Alberth>also having so many signals makes things more difficult for the path finder
16:16<V453000>^ that is also true
16:16<@Alberth>it looks ahead a bit further but not that much
16:17<@planetmaker>it considers the path to the station. but re-computes it at every signal
16:17<toobored>instead of a 1 to 3 to 2 i will try 1 to 2 to 3 configuration
16:17<toobored>I thought that thing about the signals. will reduce them
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16:18<@planetmaker>Alberth, wrt BOM I recall there had been issues with some editors, earlier. But NML somewhen learnt to ignore those. iirc
16:18<@Alberth>aynthing smaller than your bridge-length is mostly useless, I think
16:19<@planetmaker>whatever I remember, I don't see that being an issue currently
16:19<@Alberth>planetmaker: yep script = script.lstrip(str(codecs.BOM_UTF8, "utf-8"))
16:19<toobored>Alberth: where?
16:19<@Alberth>but I am trying to remove that 13MB string from being loaded in memory :)
16:20<@Alberth>toobored: at the right you seem to have a block size of 1 or 2
16:21<@Alberth>amd right next to the water too
16:21<@Alberth>it's useless as trains will not be able to follow each other so closely on a bridge
16:22<@Alberth>in fact you want the next train to see the previous train so it will pick another platform earlier
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16:23<@Alberth>note that path signals do not block access behind the previous train
16:23*andythenorth wonders if nmlc will pipe nfo to stdout
16:23<@Alberth>large blocks are not very bad in diverging paths
16:24<@Alberth>andythenorth: could be fun
16:24<@Alberth>you tried --nfo=- ?
16:24<andythenorth>I need to pick up the result with subprocess as well
16:24*andythenorth reads docs
16:25<andythenorth>there is an option to write the AST to stdout
16:25<andythenorth>I never learnt what the AST is though
16:25<@Alberth>you can create connected pipes between sub-processes iirc
16:25<andythenorth>I think it comes with Dire Warnings
16:25<andythenorth>about untrusted content
16:26<@Alberth>oh :o
16:26<andythenorth>dunno :)
16:26*Alberth uses | a lot at command line :)
16:26<andythenorth>probably only matters in a web app :)
16:26<@Alberth>webnml :)
16:27<@planetmaker>"write your own webgrf" :)
16:27<toobored>Alberth: that's the exit
16:27<@Alberth>AST is the thing that is created right after parsing, and before checking that what you provided is semantically sane
16:29<@Alberth>toobored: fair enough, but just below the left of the yellow sign there is an incoming track with lots of signals on it
16:29<@Alberth>people hardly ever change signal block length at tracks :)
16:30<@Alberth>and below the center of that sign again
16:33<toobored>yeah yeah I removed all that stuff. I just left the ones at bridge entry/exit
16:34<toobored>seems to doing a little bettah
16:34<toobored>:) thanks
16:44<@Alberth>It looks overly complicated to me, tbh
16:46<andythenorth>I seem to have a grf
16:46<andythenorth>it has no trains in :P
16:46<andythenorth>but it at least loads in game
16:47<andythenorth>currently I think it’s slower to render many files from nml to nfo individually
16:48<andythenorth>than to render one big nml file
16:48<andythenorth>I wonder about the initial start time for nmlc
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16:54<V453000>byez pm
16:55<toobored>Is it normal for cargodist to render at the end of a route a Cost: instead of a Income/Transfer ?
16:56<@Alberth>could happen
16:56<@Alberth>indeed :)
16:56<@Alberth>good night
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16:59<andythenorth>nforenum hates my nfo
16:59<andythenorth>maybe bed time
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---Logclosed Tue Jun 17 00:00:06 2014