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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-06-17

---Logopened Tue Jun 17 00:00:06 2014
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02:13<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26650 trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp (2014-06-17 06:13:38 UTC)
02:13<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6041]: Support save/load chunk lengths of up to (1 << 32) - 1
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02:43<andythenorth>I’ve forgotten everything I know about nfo
02:43<andythenorth>what kind of action is this?
02:43<andythenorth>51 * 11 00 00 \b1 01 FF \wx0546 1A FF \wx0549
02:45<@planetmaker>a0 trains
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02:52<andythenorth>it looks like buy menu sort order
02:52<andythenorth>nforenum hates it
02:52<@planetmaker>I'd recon it's properties 01 and 1A as extended bytes
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02:54<Eddi|zuHause>you're saying "change 1 property" and then set two?
02:54<@planetmaker>indeed
02:55<andythenorth>dunno
02:55<andythenorth>it’s nmlc output
02:55<@planetmaker>though I thought it would meant to change one ID
02:55<@planetmaker>too long ago that I wrote or read nfo
02:56<andythenorth>it’s definitely generated by sort()
02:56<Eddi|zuHause>ah, so it's not prop 01
02:57<Eddi|zuHause>it's 01 props of ID FF \wxblah
02:57<@planetmaker>why then \b1 01 ?
02:57<andythenorth>maybe I have a really old nforenum
02:57<Eddi|zuHause>one ID, and one prop
02:57<andythenorth>/!!Error (141): ID 12 07 out of valid range (00..73).
02:57<andythenorth>since when is 73 the max ID for a train?
02:57<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: too old nforenum, i suppose
02:57<@planetmaker>you got an ancient nforenum?
02:58<andythenorth>going to check
02:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: or ancient data files in some config directory
02:58<andythenorth>NFORenum trunk r958
02:58<Eddi|zuHause>i think i had that problem a long time ago
02:58<andythenorth>objs?
02:59<andythenorth>hmm
02:59<andythenorth>this is like archeology
02:59<@planetmaker>NFORenum 6.0.4 r980 - Copyright (C) 2004-2013 by Dale McCoy
03:01*andythenorth updates to tip
03:02<@planetmaker>public [970:efcb99e7b53c default] 2013-11-08 23:53 +0100
03:02<@planetmaker> Fix #5279: allow higher vehicle IDs when a GRF version 8 NFO is given
03:03<andythenorth>so it’s my nforenum
03:03<andythenorth>thanks
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03:13<andythenorth>hmm
03:13<andythenorth>got a grf
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03:14<andythenorth>the realsprites are all garbled
03:14<andythenorth>and the railtypes are borked
03:14<andythenorth>and as expected, many strings are failing
03:15<@planetmaker>yes, the pesky details nml guards you against ;)
03:15<andythenorth>I wonder what goes wrong in the nml->nfo step
03:16<andythenorth>I need to compare the linked and non-linked nfo
03:16<andythenorth>but anyway, later
03:16<andythenorth>thanks for the help
03:16<Eddi|zuHause>what's wrong with the sprites?
03:21<andythenorth>white pixels
03:21<andythenorth>crops are wrong I think
03:21<andythenorth>again, that nfo is pure nmlc output
03:22<andythenorth>so something is transposed
03:23<andythenorth>hmm
03:23<andythenorth>aren’t width and height reversed in nfo?
03:24<Eddi|zuHause>not in grfv8
03:24<andythenorth>ah
03:24<Eddi|zuHause>or rather nfo32
03:25<Eddi|zuHause>although i've never seen someone use nfo32 and then produce a v7 grf
03:28<andythenorth>hmm
03:28<peter1139>laa laa laa
03:28<andythenorth>some crops are coming out with 1 1
03:28<andythenorth>interesting
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03:29<andythenorth>irrelevant
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03:56<andythenorth>why is nmlc outputting train prop 1D 3 times?
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03:59<__ln__>http://i.imgur.com/q3fQSdl.jpg
04:01<NGC982>__ln__: :-O
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04:09<andythenorth>give this realsprite
04:10<andythenorth> 8680 generated/graphics/tank_car_ng_brit_gen_1_0.png 8bpp 60 10 8 25 -3 -21 normal
04:10<andythenorth>and this png https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/iron-horse/repository/entry/src/graphics/tank_car_ng_brit_gen_1_0.png
04:10<andythenorth>I get 200px of white reported
04:11<andythenorth>but the 200px (8 * 25) at x = 60, y = 10 are not white
04:11<andythenorth>so what gives
04:11<andythenorth>?
04:11<andythenorth>it’s an 8bpp paletted png
04:12<andythenorth>top of nfo file contains “// (Info version 32)”
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04:24<andythenorth>well maybe I’ll spot the issue later :P
04:24*andythenorth -> holiday
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10:53<andythenorth>hmm
10:57<peter1139>mmh
10:57<@planetmaker>mhm
10:59<andythenorth>I’ve done something to make grfcodec barf on my realsprites
10:59<andythenorth>it thinks they’re all white
11:01<@planetmaker>maybe they are? As the path to the real sprites is wrong?
11:01<andythenorth>yes
11:01<andythenorth>that appears to be the case
11:01<andythenorth>simply not using the right realsprite
11:01<andythenorth>dunno why though
11:03*andythenorth reading nfo
11:03<andythenorth>nfo is fun
11:03<andythenorth>where’s the action 3 :P
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11:05<andythenorth>planetmaker: got 5 mins to verify something for me?
11:05<andythenorth>np if busy
11:06<@planetmaker>I guess I do
11:07<andythenorth>with Iron Horse, make nfo from iron-horse.nml with nmlc, and encode with grfcodec....
11:07<andythenorth>my nml and iron-horse repos are both in a state of ‘work in progress’ :P
11:09<@Alberth>o/
11:09*Alberth got here in time today?
11:09<andythenorth>yup
11:09*andythenorth has broken something
11:10<@planetmaker>o/ Albert :)
11:10*andythenorth wonders why grfcodec wants null_trailing_part.png so many times
11:13<andythenorth>I thought it was valid to do: realsprites, action 2, more realsprites, action 2, varaction 2, action 3
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: some versions of grfcodec had issues with interlaced pngs
11:16<andythenorth>thanks
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>but that affected only 32bpp for me
11:16<andythenorth>I think this might be EAndythenorth somewhere
11:16<andythenorth>waiting to see what pm finds
11:16<@planetmaker>so, andythenorth, I don't get any white pixel warnings with grfcodec
11:17<andythenorth>hrm
11:17<andythenorth>ok so the problem is newly introduced thanks
11:18<andythenorth>planetmaker: which grfcodec?
11:18<@planetmaker>after I installed python3-ply, python3-pillow and found the lang dir and how to teach nmlc about it :P
11:18<@planetmaker>yes
11:18<@planetmaker>it should warn me about them, should it?
11:19<@planetmaker>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3440/
11:20<andythenorth>it’s warning me
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11:20<andythenorth>the pattern of sprites loaded is different for me
11:21<andythenorth>far more null_trailing_part.png
11:21<andythenorth>I’ve broken something :P
11:22<@planetmaker>I ran make on a clean iron-horse. nml2nfo'ed the nml. And then grfcodec'ed the resulting nfo.
11:23<andythenorth>it’s good that it works
11:23<andythenorth>fixing my code is easier than fixing grfcodec or nmlc :P
11:24<@planetmaker>you did not try with a clean checkout?
11:25<@planetmaker>local clones are dirt cheap to get by...
11:25<@planetmaker>as you've got an OS with a sensible file system it only costs a few links
11:25<andythenorth>I might try that later, right now I have my own nmlc too, with uncommitted changes
11:25<andythenorth>I could fix it I guess
11:26<@planetmaker>well, clone that, too ;)
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11:29<andythenorth>are there any ill effects expected from repeating the grfcodec header comments block?
11:29<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3441/
11:31<andythenorth>planetmaker: may I have the nfo you generated? o_O
11:31<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/iron-horse.nfo
11:31<andythenorth>ta
11:31<@planetmaker>np
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11:35<andythenorth>meh
11:35<andythenorth>planetmaker: if you replace your nfo with this, does it fail? http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3443/
11:35<andythenorth>it should :P
11:37<@planetmaker>./3443.nfo:1: Warning: Found 9036 fewer sprites than sprite 0 reports.
11:37<@planetmaker>Loading generated/graphics/chaplin_0.png(Transparency:100%, Redundancy:100%)
11:37<@planetmaker>no white sprites though
11:37<andythenorth>nforenum it
11:38<andythenorth>the current expected failure is a spritesheet not being tall enough
11:38*andythenorth is fighting bees
11:38<@planetmaker>Loading generated/graphics/chaplin_0.png(Transparency:100%, Redundancy:100%)
11:38<@planetmaker> thus remains
11:39<andythenorth>interesting
11:40<andythenorth>maybe the problem really is the sprites
11:40*andythenorth headache :(
11:40<andythenorth>nfo always does that
11:40<@planetmaker>it does. Thus I dearly avoid it
11:41<@planetmaker>reminds me... I wanted to do a station set
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11:46<andythenorth>planetmaker: it says nothing about loading null_trailing_part.png?
11:49<andythenorth>ah
11:49<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/6884
11:50<andythenorth>oic
11:50<andythenorth>that is the probelm
11:51<andythenorth>problem *
11:53<andythenorth>compiling 6.0.3 doesn’t resolve it
11:53<andythenorth>lots of compiler warnings too
11:54<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3444/
11:57<andythenorth>planetmaker: can I have your grfcodec 6.0.3 binary?
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12:00<@planetmaker>andythenorth: how will that help you? It's build non-static for my OS (debian wheezy x64)
12:00<andythenorth>ah
12:00<andythenorth>sorry, assumed you had an OS X compiled version :P
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12:01<@planetmaker>even then, it would be non-static for 10.6
12:01<@planetmaker>that wouldn't work on your machine either
12:01<andythenorth>hmm
12:01<andythenorth>so grfcodec is game-overed currently for me
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12:02<@planetmaker>you got libpng and zlib available?
12:02<@planetmaker>thus yours is built with those?
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12:03<andythenorth>libpng-1.5.14
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12:06<andythenorth>just installed zlib
12:06<andythenorth>fewer compile warnings now (just one)
12:06<andythenorth>but still the spritesheet lines error
12:09<andythenorth>but
12:09<andythenorth>I don’t have this issue with road-hog
12:09<andythenorth>grfcodec works fine there, produces a valid grf
12:15-!-DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:15<andythenorth>bit weird, eh?
12:21<@Alberth>all sprites are the same?
12:23<andythenorth>between the two grfs? Or in Iron Horse?
12:24-!-DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has joined #openttd
12:25<@Alberth>I thought the error happened when you process 2 sprites at the same time? (didn't carefully read it though, could be wrong)
12:25<@Alberth>if all sprites have the same layout, you won't notice it
12:28-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~flex@i59F6B72F.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
12:28<andythenorth>this is plausible
12:29<andythenorth>there are multiple spritesheets for each action 3 in Iron Horse
12:29<andythenorth>whereas only one per action 3 in Road Hog
12:29-!-Midnightmyth [~quassel@93-167-84-102-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #openttd
12:30<andythenorth>it’s as though it picks up the wrong set of bounding box sizes etc
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12:36<andythenorth>if I find-and-replace to just one spritesheet, it compiles
12:37<@Alberth>you doubted the existence of the bug?
12:37<@planetmaker>seems to work on linux, though, Alberth :)
12:37<andythenorth>I wanted to isolate the cause :P
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12:38<andythenorth>so do I finally have to give in, and do newgrf dev in virtualbox?
12:38<andythenorth>:P
12:38<@Alberth>planetmaker: interesting :)
12:38<@planetmaker>but dunno the amount of local modifications andy has in each of the tools .P
12:39<andythenorth>grfcodec, zero :P
12:39<andythenorth>I think we can assume grfcodec is game-over on OS X Mavericks
12:40<@planetmaker>I wouldn't understand why
12:40<@Alberth>yeah, seems weird
12:40-!-tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@ip503d7ac1.speed.planet.nl] has quit []
12:40<@Alberth>downgrading to 0.6.3 not an option ?
12:41<andythenorth>6.0.3 shows same issue for me
12:41<@Alberth>:o
12:41<andythenorth>I have to compile it myself, and I suspect the issue is the compile
12:41<andythenorth>I assume it’s building with clang or whatever
12:41<andythenorth>not gcc
12:41<andythenorth>I could build gcc, and try forcing it to compile with gcc
12:42<andythenorth>dunno how
12:42<andythenorth>the nfo planetmaker generated also fails
12:42<andythenorth>the only other thing it could be is the pngs, and I see nothing wrong there
12:42<@Alberth>hmm, good point, no idea how stable clang is
12:43<@Alberth>or pnglib, but that's very unlikely as well
12:43<andythenorth>none of you can compile with Mavericks, and none of us with Mavericks can fix it :)
12:43<andythenorth>so it’s stuck
12:43<@Alberth>:(
12:44*andythenorth ponders pcx
12:44<@Alberth>if it's really the compiler I wouldn't know how to debug that
12:44<@Alberth>let alone fixing it :)
12:45<@planetmaker>andythenorth, nml has a regression folder. Do those nfo work for you with grfcodec?
12:45<@planetmaker>with nml as well?
12:45<andythenorth>hmm issue occurs with pcx too
12:45<@Alberth>kk
12:46<@Alberth>that rules out the png lib stuff
12:46<andythenorth>currently my nml tests are broken
12:46<@planetmaker>andythenorth, can you make a minimal test case?
12:46<andythenorth>but I’ve discounted my nml
12:46<andythenorth>I have planetmaker’s nfo
12:46<@planetmaker>why are nml tests borked?
12:46<andythenorth>because I have a patch
12:47<andythenorth>I could fix that, but I think it’s non-relevant
12:47<andythenorth>your nfo fails too
12:47<@planetmaker>for grfcodec, sure is
12:47<andythenorth>reminds me to make my patch pass tests though :P
12:50<andythenorth>planetmaker: I added sprites.zip here https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/6884
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12:53<@Alberth>hai
12:53<@planetmaker>quaak
12:54<andythenorth>ribbit
12:56<andythenorth>it’s exactly as snail says - as though grfcodec is garbling which spritesheet to use
12:58*andythenorth considers restructuring the grf to a single spritesheet
12:59<@Alberth>since not all compilers do that, it's likely to be either a bug in the OSX compiler, or the source relies on undefined behavior
12:59<@Alberth>where gcc then does a happy thing, and apple does the non-happy thing
12:59<@Alberth>throw a little pillow into the equation?
12:59<andythenorth>:P
13:01<andythenorth>I am seriously considering using PIL to concatenate all the spritesheets to one
13:01<andythenorth>it’s probably not The Right Solution
13:02<@planetmaker>andythenorth, did you try to build grfcodec with gcc?
13:02<@planetmaker>on my machine I have like gcc_select which allows me to choose the version of gcc to use
13:02<andythenorth>I’d need to get gcc I think
13:03<@planetmaker>obviously it will need to be different with clang. But getting gcc should not be hard, no?
13:03<@planetmaker>might not be default (anymore), but not at all? Honestly dunno, just asking
13:03<andythenorth>searching now
13:03<@planetmaker>appstore might know :)
13:03<@Alberth>if it's a nice ./configure tool, CC=gcc ./configure may be enough
13:04<@Alberth>although I may be underestimating the niceness of apple configurations :)
13:05<andythenorth>searching implies that reinstalling gcc might be a bad idea
13:07<@planetmaker>Alberth, that seemed to have worked for me. A few years ago
13:08<@Alberth>kk
13:08<andythenorth>I think I’m going to not install gcc
13:08<andythenorth>I don’t have recent backups, and Bad Things Might Happen
13:09<@planetmaker>what can happen?
13:09<@planetmaker>it's not like an obscure app
13:09<@planetmaker>which phones home and sells your children
13:09<andythenorth>might break existing clang setup
13:10<andythenorth>if I had backups I’d just do it
13:10<andythenorth>but I’m away from home, using a phone to get net access
13:10<@Alberth>fair enough
13:18-!-DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has joined #openttd
13:20*andythenorth is out of things to google
13:20<andythenorth>therefore accepting defeat
13:23<andythenorth>@seen snail
13:23<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: snail was last seen in #openttd 6 weeks, 3 days, 0 hours, 21 minutes, and 8 seconds ago: <Snail> tbh I have too much fun to draw manually
13:23<andythenorth>@seen snail_
13:23<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: snail_ was last seen in #openttd 2 years, 2 weeks, 6 days, 22 hours, 41 minutes, and 49 seconds ago: <Snail_> yep, so the question is, would it be possible to implement labels for vehicles that could also be set through a callback
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13:24<@Rubidium>so the 6884 grfcodec issue is purely OS X?
13:25<andythenorth>afaict
13:25<andythenorth>probably only Mavericks
13:25<andythenorth>maybe 10.8
13:25<andythenorth>my bet is on clang / LLVM
13:25<andythenorth>I’ll put €20 on it
13:25<andythenorth>and €10 on a dependency, as a hedge bet :P
13:26-!-oskari89 [oskari89@83-102-63-32.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd
13:33<frosch123>andythenorth: what does the finished grf look like?
13:33<frosch123>is it correct, can you attach it too?
13:34<frosch123>my bet is on different int promotion stuff
13:35<frosch123>the grfcodec hacking style is prone to fail for such things
13:35<@Rubidium>clang 3.3 seems to do the right (tm) thing
13:36<@Rubidium>now going to replace 3.3 with 3.5
13:42<@Rubidium>unless my clang doesn't actually use llvm
13:43<andythenorth>frosch123: there is no finished grf
13:43<andythenorth>it bails during encode
13:43<andythenorth>it = grfcodec
13:43<@Rubidium>hmm... llvm-clang exists as well, but fails horridly upon linking
13:46<@planetmaker>hm... does clang compile openttd?
13:46<@planetmaker>or doesn't it link it? Likely I'm missing something...
13:47<@Rubidium>clang 3.3 on Debian compiles it
13:47<@planetmaker>CC=clang CXX=clang ./configure ?
13:48<@planetmaker>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3445/
13:50<@Rubidium>that's roughly the error I get for grfcodec when using llvm-clang
13:50<@Rubidium>though clang, which supposedly uses llvm (or not?!?) works just fine
13:51<@Rubidium>it's a typical "didn't link to stdlibc++"
13:55<@Rubidium>clang 3.5 compiles OpenTTD on Debian as well
13:57-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
13:57<Wolf01>hi hi
13:57<@planetmaker>default on wheezy seems 3.0
13:58<@Rubidium>oh, use clang++ instead of clang
13:58<@Rubidium>(for just both)
13:58<@planetmaker>doh. That's looking better :)
13:58<@planetmaker>ty
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14:10<andythenorth>OpenTTD does compile for me btw, using whatever clang Mavericks has
14:10<@planetmaker>with clang++ it does for me, too (clang 3.4)
14:20-!-Tramvai [~oftc-webi@120.44.235.80.dyn.estpak.ee] has joined #openttd
14:21<Tramvai>Hey guys. I need some help with my trains: the damn trains will go through my unloading station without unloading and to go their home 'depot'
14:21<Tramvai>Why doesn't ANY depot work?
14:21<andythenorth>what is a home depot?
14:21<Tramvai>I don't know why they prefer one depot over the other
14:21<Tramvai>I think it counts as the depot I bought the train in?
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14:22<@planetmaker>trains don't have that concept
14:22<@planetmaker>the whole game doesn't
14:23<Tramvai>I have depots like this: http://i.imgur.com/26WaJPP.png Yet they still go through the unloading station just to enter some random depot...
14:23<Tramvai>I did try making depots easy to access BEFORE the station.
14:23<andythenorth>depot routing issues are usually due to signalling
14:23<@planetmaker>for servicing?
14:23<Tramvai>Yeah
14:23<andythenorth>I turn off breakdowns + servicing, because depot routing is quite broken
14:23<@planetmaker>then give them explicit depot orders in their schedule. Then they'll just go there when you allow them
14:23<@planetmaker>otherwise they visit the nearest depot straight when they need
14:24<Tramvai>The train feels like it needs service during its trip to the main station and then it suddenly decides to go to a depot that is AFTER the station and just ends up doing a very long run with a full load...
14:24<Tramvai>It just blows my mind
14:26<@planetmaker>when it wants to visit a depot it goes there without stop
14:26<@planetmaker>thus, tell it when to visit one
14:26<@planetmaker>in its orders
14:27<@planetmaker>and make sure there's one where it then can go without long detour
14:27<Tramvai>Alright
14:28<Tramvai>So, it would help if I just put some depots on the railroad in the middle of nowhere?
14:28<Tramvai>So it can take its piss break there?
14:28<andythenorth>turn off breakdowns :)
14:28<andythenorth>problem solved
14:29<@planetmaker>Tramvai, please read again :)
14:29<@planetmaker>put the depot visit in the trains' orders
14:29<Tramvai>I don't really feel like defining depots for all the trains I have. :S
14:29<@planetmaker>and make sure that then is a depot at the place they're told to visit it
14:30<@planetmaker>then make sure that depots are *before* the split of any lines
14:30<andythenorth>hmm
14:31<andythenorth>so until I can install GCC, my faster-newgrf-compile project is halted :P
14:31<andythenorth>Alberth: how is your lexer coming along? o-O
14:31<@Alberth>it fails at regression test 012 currently
14:31<andythenorth>tests are useful :)
14:32<V453000>Tramvai: method without orders http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2012/11/18/train-servicing-settings/
14:32<V453000>assuming 90degree turns to be off to make the image work
14:33<@Alberth>5 days? :O
14:33<V453000>doesnt matter, shorter = better
14:33<V453000>in case you need to autoreplace twice in a row :P
14:34<V453000>if it is the default (150yrs), then you need to wait half a year before you can autoreplace again
14:34<V453000>or just in case trains went through some depot like overflow in the half year
14:34<@Alberth>I just the default setting :)
14:34<V453000>it is just a breaking condition which is nice to have so small that it doesnt prevent trains from autoreplacing ever, because you are in control of the depot places
14:35<@Alberth>+use
14:35<V453000>understood that :P
14:35<V453000>but you use breakdowns, which alone is punishable by death :P
14:35<andythenorth>you should turn 90’ turns back on as well
14:35<andythenorth>disabling them is stupid
14:35<@Alberth>Tramvai: I make all my junctions such that trains can go in any direction from any direction
14:36<V453000>junctions: yes, terminus stations are fine though :P
14:36<V453000>but you commented on YETI thread Alberth so you can live for now =D
14:36<@Alberth>phew! :)
14:37<andythenorth>but V453000 must die for 90º turns being off
14:37<V453000>I dont give a shit I can play with them on, but most people hayt it :P
14:37<@Alberth>he must, I also have them turned off, it looks toooooo stupid to allow
14:37<andythenorth>yes but it breaks your ships
14:38<V453000>I would just make my terminus not have that X for 90
14:38<andythenorth>they will get lost on rivers
14:38<V453000>it doesnt break MY ships :D nor MY rivers
14:38<@Alberth>nah, just make enough room for them to turn
14:38<V453000>0 ships, rivers disabled
14:38<andythenorth>you are special
14:39<V453000>ps I got my BDMT factory sketched up (: just need to model it now :0
14:40<andythenorth>BDMT - is that a sub-dom thing?
14:40<andythenorth>I think you should keep your perversions out of the game
14:42<V453000>omfg
14:42<V453000>building materials, same label as firs
14:42<@planetmaker>Alberth, I agree, too stupid. Yet 'on' is default still :(
14:43<V453000>planetmaker: original acceleration is default, PBS is default, and many more are equally intelligent
14:43<V453000>I thought the original acceleration is unquestionable
14:43<@planetmaker>pbs as default is quite reasonable. acceleration is not :)
14:43<V453000>TWO way PBS is the most confusing signal in the whole game
14:44<@Alberth>+1
14:44<V453000>looks 1-way, behaves 2-way, has no use, only in specific cases
14:44<V453000>-> makes sense to have it default?
14:44<@Alberth>obviously it does? :)
14:44<V453000>I can accept that dumb people want to have 1-way PBS as default, obviously simple block would still be better, but 2-way PBS is just nonsense
14:45<fonsinchen>I always use 2-way PBS it for terminus stations.
14:45<V453000>2-way PBS is only useful for 2-way stations, terminus can do without it
14:45<fonsinchen>A lot of people build their first signals when building stations.
14:45<@Alberth>fonsinchen: yes, that's a specific case
14:45<V453000>I am ignoring the penalty usage openttdcoop uses 2way PBS for
14:45<@planetmaker>maybe it's a confusing naming rather than a confusing signal?
14:46<V453000>names dont help when people look at it
14:46<V453000>still it is a signal without normal use
14:46<@planetmaker>that's true
14:46<@Alberth>planetmaker: the signal is confusing, it's too easy to make a complete mess of your network
14:46<V453000>making new player use it is really the worst option, perhaps aside combo signal :D
14:46<fonsinchen>It's probably a good idea to have the signal be default that newbies use first
14:46<@planetmaker>well, terminus stations give them a normal use. But using them everywhere indeed is very stupid
14:46<@planetmaker>and will mess up things
14:46<V453000>terminus stations _dont_ need 2way PBS either
14:47<@planetmaker>maybe the default pbs signal should be the 1-way pbs one
14:47<@planetmaker>they don't. Indeed
14:47<@Alberth>terminus can be done without 2-way pbs, for newbies
14:47<fonsinchen>You can do without pbs there, but it's more complicated.
14:47<V453000>for everyone, the 2way pbs is just wasted space there Alberth
14:47<fonsinchen>you need pre/post signals then
14:47<@planetmaker>fonsinchen, no, you don't. You can do w/o any signals at terminus
14:48<@planetmaker>only entry 1-way pbs suffices
14:48<@Alberth>V453000: indeed, I never place them, except in pass-through stations used from both sides
14:48<V453000>I think 1-way PBS would make a ton more sense. I still think it is vital for people to understand the system of block before diving into paths though.
14:48<V453000>yes, that is what I call 2-way station Alberth
14:48<fonsinchen>interesting ... I never though of building a terminus without signals
14:49*fonsinchen goes and plays a bit
14:49<V453000>:D
14:49<@planetmaker>:)
14:49<@Alberth>it saves an entire tile :)
14:49<V453000>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/File:PBS_Basic.png
14:49<V453000>works
14:49<@Alberth>although I still build a straight track first from a platfom, as it looks better
14:50<fonsinchen>Also that exit is not exactly a safe waiting position. But I get the logic
14:50<V453000>proper networks can assume exits to be always free :P
14:51<andythenorth>2-way PBS? o_O
14:51<andythenorth>I’d never thought about that
14:51<fonsinchen>V453000: then you can place the exit signal(s) even closer to the station.
14:51<Tramvai>V453000: Have they changed the minimum service time to 30 days now?
14:51<andythenorth>also stations without signals?
14:51<andythenorth>witchcraft
14:51-!-DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has joined #openttd
14:51<@Alberth>fonsinchen: that exit looks like a block signal to me
14:52<V453000>Tramvai: there might be some way to set it by clicking or editing config, but 30 is fine too
14:52<@Alberth>Tramvai: double click the line for a popup?
14:52<Tramvai>Editing the cfg seems to be the only way... In-game it won't go lower than 30. Tried both using the arrows and editing through double click.
14:52<V453000>fonsinchen: the station is Very far from perfect or even good, but yeah you can put it closer
14:52<V453000>Tramvai: I did it somehow by some fiddling, but cant tell anymore :d 30 is fine tho
14:53<Tramvai>Yeah, opened up the popup, tried 5, didn't change a thing. 30 is the lowest it accepts.
14:53<V453000>could have been some combination of switching to %, setting it to 5 and then back
14:53<V453000>or something similar
14:53<V453000>doesnt really matter in the end, 1 month is very shoret
14:53<V453000>short
14:53<@Alberth>less than a minute real-time :p
14:55<@Alberth>Tramvai: you know V plays without breakdowns and without servicing, right?
14:56<@Alberth>ie his trains never go to a depot, normally
14:56<Tramvai>I just don't understand why the breakdown and servicing system is that bad right now...
14:56<Tramvai>Seems to be a fundamental part of the game
14:57<Tramvai>Yet it's seriously broken... apparently
14:57<@Alberth>it is?
14:57<Tramvai>Or are my train drivers retarded?
14:58<@Alberth>probably your expectations and how it really works are not well aligned :)
14:58<Tramvai>I haven't really paid attention to it much before, but I've just recently noticed what my trains are doing... And it really brought my piss to a boil
14:58<@planetmaker>:)
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14:58<Tramvai>They seem to prefer some depots over the other... that's what's wrong
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15:00<@Alberth>if you tell them to get serviced every 30 days, they will try to do so every 30 days, to a depot that is near
15:01<andythenorth>or a depot that is ‘near’ according to the pathfinder
15:01<andythenorth>not physically near
15:01<andythenorth>even if it involves going down a sidetrack
15:01<andythenorth>or in the case of RVs, 20 tiles in the wrong direction
15:01<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26651 /trunk/src (3 files in 2 dirs) (2014-06-17 19:01:45 UTC)
15:01<@DorpsGek>-Fix: make sure an abs is used that supports int64 when using abs on those variables
15:01<andythenorth>or for trains, into a station that they are too long for
15:02<andythenorth>thereby blocking the network
15:02<@Alberth>:)
15:02<@planetmaker>hehe, yeah. One of the reasons to prefer one-tainlength networks
15:02<@Alberth>my trains are mostly all about the same length :)
15:02<andythenorth>“Breakdowns: off"
15:02<@planetmaker>trains on wrong paths then won't cause havoc
15:03<andythenorth>Dandan’s comment is interesting, suggests it might be a dep https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/6884#note-7
15:03<andythenorth>rather than clang / llvm
15:05<andythenorth>I wonder if libpng is the issue
15:05<frosch123>http://trac.wildfiregames.com/ticket/2184 <- what happens if you run that on your png
15:05<@planetmaker>libpng warning: iCCP: Not recognizing known sRGB profile that has been edited <-- I get that, too
15:06<@planetmaker>on this system (fedora20). Not on my debian
15:06<andythenorth>whines about ‘convert'
15:06<andythenorth>command not found
15:06<frosch123>imagemagick
15:06<Tramvai>Alberth: http://i.imgur.com/SOhNFC1.jpg
15:07*andythenorth gets imagemagick
15:07<andythenorth>this is going to hurt my phone bill
15:08<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26652 /branches/1.4 (6 files in 4 dirs) (2014-06-17 19:08:07 UTC)
15:08<@DorpsGek>[1.4] -Backport from trunk:
15:08<@DorpsGek>- Fix: Segmentation fault when encountering a .obg/.obs/.obm with empty string/zero length MD5 checksums [FS#6038] (r26637)
15:08<@DorpsGek>- Fix: The 'Load' button was not properly enabled/disabled for old savegames without NewGRF information (r26634)
15:08<@DorpsGek>- Fix: If the video driver fails to supply a list of resolutions, display an error message [FS#6012] (r26629)
15:08<@Alberth>Tramvai: easy, specify a depot order in the orders of the train
15:08<Tramvai>I got a lot of trains, it's not very efficient :S
15:09<@Alberth>then it will only visit that depot at the moment the order says so
15:09<@planetmaker>you don't use any shared orders?
15:09<@Alberth>no shared orders? :O
15:09<Tramvai>What are...
15:09<Tramvai>Shared...
15:09<Tramvai>ord...
15:09<Tramvai>ers? :S
15:09<Tramvai>Can I eat them? :S
15:10<@planetmaker>yup. They're tasty. Nut flavour with a trace of cat. Or so
15:10<Tramvai>I just specify orders and clone the train...
15:10<@Alberth>http://wiki.openttd.org/Shared_orders#Shared_Orders oh boy, have you unexplored worlds :)
15:11<Tramvai>:S
15:12<@Alberth>basically, you share the same set of orders between trains. Change them once to change them for every train using those shared orders
15:13<Tramvai>Alright, converting the trains right now. That's great, thanks.
15:13<@planetmaker>ctrl+click on other train
15:13<@planetmaker>then the train will get shared orders with the train you clicked
15:13<Tramvai>Yeah, the wiki page explained it fairly well.
15:13<@planetmaker>or ctrl+clone to clone an existing. k :)
15:14<frosch123>basically, get some glue and make your ctrl key perma-pressed
15:14<andythenorth>consists :(
15:14<@planetmaker>:P
15:14*andythenorth is now proud owner of imagemagick
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15:15<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26653 /branches/1.4 (8 files in 3 dirs) (2014-06-17 19:14:59 UTC)
15:15<@DorpsGek>[1.4] -Backport from trunk:
15:15<@DorpsGek>- Fix: Incorrect usage of string commands in the base language [FS#6037] (r26642, r26640, r26639, r26632)
15:15<andythenorth>frosch123: a new exciting error, after running that command
15:15<andythenorth>sprites/graphics/chaplin_0.png: PNG file is not a 256 colour file!
15:15<andythenorth>so it’s no longer paletted
15:15<andythenorth>so I need to change the nfo?
15:16<andythenorth>am I missing the bit in action 1 docs that tells me what to do? http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action1
15:16<andythenorth>currently they have 8bpp specified
15:17<frosch123>nah, then the imagemagick command is wrong
15:17<frosch123>actually, interesting... color profiles on 8bpp data
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15:17<frosch123>that sounds like silly crap :p
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15:18<@planetmaker>frosch123, no, not really. They define how actually each colour looks like
15:20<V453000>HOW IN THE HELL CAN AN ERROR _EXCITE_ YOU ANDY
15:20<V453000>EXCITE
15:20<V453000>of all things possible
15:20<V453000>wtf
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15:24<andythenorth>V453000: because it’s different to the old error
15:24<andythenorth>new always = exciting, no?
15:24<V453000>no
15:24<andythenorth>oic
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15:24<V453000>when I get a new error, the 4 letter words usually echo through the room
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15:25<V453000>I guess you can describe that as exciting
15:25<V453000>though not the most fit word probably
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15:27<andythenorth>wondering if I can downgrade libpng to the version snail reports as working with 6.0.3
15:28<@planetmaker>you use macports (or brew)?
15:28<@planetmaker>then you can
15:28<@planetmaker>likely
15:28<andythenorth>I (stupidly) have both brew and macports versions right now
15:28<andythenorth>I am going to bin the brew version
15:28<fonsinchen>4-letter words ... beer?
15:29<@planetmaker>!!! good idea :P
15:29<fonsinchen>pivo!
15:29<@planetmaker>*plop*
15:29<fonsinchen>so many 4-letter words
15:30<@planetmaker>nope ;)
15:30<Xaroth|Work>twat?
15:30<@planetmaker>sure?
15:31<Xaroth|Work>gheh
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15:31<@Rubidium>πzza?
15:31<@planetmaker>nice
15:32<andythenorth>how do I get macports to give me older libpng?
15:32<frosch123>yeti, nuts, firs, fish, most words are 4 letter words
15:33<V453000>purr, meow, slug
15:33<V453000>(:
15:34<V453000>OIL_ is a nice 4 letter word
15:34<frosch123>:p
15:34<@planetmaker>do you still have that maybe, andythenorth ?
15:34<@planetmaker>%% port installed inactive
15:34<andythenorth>no
15:34<andythenorth>tried that
15:34<andythenorth>having to do manual install
15:35<@planetmaker>and you didn't use time machine on that either, no?
15:36<andythenorth>not sure
15:37<andythenorth>certainly I don’t have a backup nearby to check
15:37<@planetmaker>hm, I hoped you had the old version still. I did that on my machine a few times. But I don't clean those
15:42<andythenorth>I got 1.4.8_0
15:42<andythenorth>and built grfcodec 6.0.3
15:43<andythenorth>but same spritesheet bounds error
15:43<andythenorth>so snail has something different to me
15:43<andythenorth>the deps I have are now ~same rev as snails
15:44<@Rubidium>different compiler?
15:44<@Rubidium>does it actually pick up the old png, or does it use the new one?
15:44<andythenorth>not sure
15:44<andythenorth>I’ve activated it with macports
15:45<@planetmaker>if you've mixed brew and macports you can't be sure which is used
15:45<andythenorth>I removed the brew version
15:46<@planetmaker>then it should be unique :)
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15:47*andythenorth defeated
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15:56<@Rubidium>it's not libpng 1.6.10; it works for me with 1.6.10
15:56<NGC982>R-r-r-r-r-return what you have stolen!
15:57<@Rubidium>except the warning about iCCP / the sRGB profile
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16:09<@DorpsGek>Commit by michi_cc :: r26654 /trunk (5 files in 2 dirs) (2014-06-17 20:09:00 UTC)
16:09<@DorpsGek>-Fix (r26482): Header file missing from sources.list.
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16:30<andythenorth>bye
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16:33<Tramvai>Guys...
16:33<Tramvai>Can I destroy a train?
16:34<@planetmaker>you can crash it or sell it
16:34<@Rubidium>just crash another train into it
16:34<Tramvai>I have a train that moves half a block
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16:34<Tramvai>And breaks down
16:34<Tramvai>All my train traffic is halted
16:34<@Rubidium>build a depot really really close
16:34<@Rubidium>and force the train to go there
16:34<Tramvai>Yeah, that's what I
16:35<Tramvai>am trying
16:35<Tramvai>But still takes like 5 minutes
16:35<Tramvai>And it doesn't want to go there...
16:35<FLHerne>Or turn off breakdowns, because they're a horrible BAD FEATURE that doesn't work properly for gameplay :P
16:37<Tramvai>Had my friend who hosts it turn it off
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16:37<Tramvai>They were ridiculous indeed :s
16:37<V453000>(:
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17:08<Wolf01>'night all
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17:28<@planetmaker>hm... was Message: Assertion failed at line 1509 of /home/openttd/svn-publicserver/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: IsVariableSizeRight(sld)
17:28<@planetmaker> fixed? (r26645)
17:28<@planetmaker>I don't see that in our logs but seem remember... wrongly?
17:28<frosch123>it can happen ever again
17:28<@planetmaker>just happend on our PS
17:29<frosch123>but no, no issue of that type was fixed since r26645
17:30<frosch123>do you have a core file or other type of backtrace?
17:30<@planetmaker>just the crash.log
17:30<frosch123>we need to know on what chunk it happened
17:30<@planetmaker>and crash.sav
17:32<frosch123>hmm, crash.sav... how does it create a crash.sav when saving causes the crash? :p
17:32<@planetmaker>of size 0 bytes
17:32<@planetmaker>:P
17:33<frosch123>did you just start playing, or did it not happen all day?
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17:35<@planetmaker>we started building on a virgin map.
17:36<@planetmaker>some 'planning' stuff might have been build before. Dunno when. So some tracks existed. And also a vehicle. But not sure how long before. V453000 do you know?
17:37<V453000>the vehicle has been built today morning, few game years
17:37<V453000>just check the vehicle age :)
17:38<V453000>the first tracks existed since same time
17:38<V453000>autoclean was on previously which cleaned our company
17:38<frosch123>well, enable core files, and check whether you can trigger it again :)
17:38<@planetmaker>hm :)
17:38<@planetmaker>how do I enable core files?
17:38<frosch123>ulimit -c unlimited
17:39<frosch123>just put it into .bashrc
17:39<frosch123>or add it to your ottd server start script, or whatever
17:40<frosch123>there is no harm, it only has benefits :)
17:40<Xaroth|Work>there are no limits to removing limits.
17:42<@planetmaker>it's started by means of some python scriped and then forked into background
17:49<@planetmaker>well, let's see what happens
17:49<@planetmaker>I'll also have a look at my bed now. :) Good night
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17:50<frosch123>planetmaker: oh, i also assume you compiled with debug symbols
17:52<@planetmaker>I actually don't know :)
17:52<@planetmaker>Taede, will know
17:53<@planetmaker>config.log says no
17:53<frosch123>well, then also enable those :)
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18:03<frosch123>night
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