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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-06-20

---Logopened Fri Jun 20 00:00:11 2014
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00:56<Supercheese>Any reason why Iron Horse's grfID is "CA\12\1E" ?
00:58<Supercheese>Where does the "CA" come from "Iron Horse"?
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03:24<@planetmaker>moin
03:24<@planetmaker>Supercheese, it comes from the canadian sprite artist. And the intended theme. I recon. But I have no clue
03:26<@planetmaker>Supercheese, and the grfID is no problem. The problem is that OzTrans needs to reserve all 65k grfIDs starting with CA for himself plus additionally all grfIDs starting with the character 0x97, thus another 17 million
03:26<Supercheese>I agree, but I was confused where the CA came from; sprite artist makes sense
03:27<Supercheese>Oz is an odd one
03:27<V453000>:)
03:35<Supercheese>'night
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03:36<V453000>:D:D:D
03:38<V453000>I just dont understand why does someone have the need to CREATE problems for themselves (apart from people related to the problem) for no reason
03:38<V453000>that is just escaping me
03:47<peter1139>"never reached cpu limit even on huge maps, even on the old pc which had a Q6600 quadcore."
03:47<peter1139>haha
03:47<peter1139>Q6600, while a bit old now, is hardly weak :D
03:48<peter1139>Raspberry Pi... now that's weak.
03:50<V453000>well if most people have 100 trains on 4k x 4k then yes it might be ok on almost any pc :D
03:50<peter1139>Horrible size.
03:51<V453000>y
03:56<peter1139>Hmm, I still have a copy of the RISC OS port source.
03:56<peter1139>Shame it's from 2005 o_O
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06:28<V453000>I like OzTrans
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06:33<Flygon>OzTrans?
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07:00<Eddi|zuHause>whenever you say the opposite of what i think, i feel validated in my opinion :p
07:00<V453000>:D
07:00<V453000>well in this case ... :P
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07:08<@planetmaker>that reminds me... http://www.dilbert.com/2014-06-18/
07:09<V453000>yay
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09:59<andythenorth>meh
09:59<andythenorth>I still can’t find what the actual joke was
09:59<andythenorth>searched the logs :P
10:04<V453000>:DDD
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10:08<andythenorth>anybody use grfcodec in windows?
10:20<andythenorth>does the windows binary just work, or do I have to install mingw and whatever?
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10:21<@Rubidium>andythenorth: it should (tm) just (c) work ;)
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10:27<andythenorth>ta
10:29<__ln__>http://www.imore.com/yo-inexplicable-million-dollar-app-does-fck-all
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13:40<Wolf01>hi hi
13:40<@Alberth>hi hi
13:41<@planetmaker>o/
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14:26<__ln__>q'apla
14:28<__ln__>V453000: is it legal to take photos in czech?
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>probably depends on what's on them
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxVcgDMBU94
14:34<andythenorth>can we run grfcodec as a web service?
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>no
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>well, actually, yes. it's called "build on push" on the devzone
14:42<andythenorth>he
14:42<andythenorth>I am wondering if I can run it as a web service locally
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>what would be the point of that?
14:44<andythenorth>then I can use grfcodec
14:44<andythenorth>it will be insanely hard to script into a VM from make
14:44<andythenorth>but easy to do it with some web send + load
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>run the whole build in the vm?
14:45<andythenorth>also a solution
14:46<andythenorth>but I’d have to learn linux
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>or just get a useful os that can run it natively
14:46<andythenorth>which linux works?
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>get the vm from devzone?
14:47<andythenorth>good suggestion
14:47<andythenorth>planetmaker: how big is VM running bundles?
14:48<__ln__>i kind of noticed once that it's not quite legal to take photos on spanish airports.
14:50<@planetmaker>it's currently 30G. Why?
14:50<@planetmaker>actually wrong. 80G for the data partition
14:50<andythenorth>hrm
14:51<andythenorth>I need to move my newgrf dev to a VM, and I am short on space
14:51<@planetmaker>andythenorth, the bundles server is the one which *only* servers bundles.o.o. It has nothing to do with building or so
14:51<@planetmaker>it's only the disk space
14:52<@planetmaker>but... why would you run grfcodec as a web service?
14:52<frosch123>because osx
14:52<@planetmaker>and yes, with build on push you can use the devzone, that's no issue. It cleans up builds after a time
14:52<@planetmaker>it's not a purely black hole
14:53<frosch123>andythenorth: you can use shared folder and run make within the vm while accessing the files on the host machine
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the quesion he meant to ask was "how big is the VM making the builds"
14:54<@planetmaker>30G would suffice. debian7 + jenkins + various stuff needed for the builds
14:54<@planetmaker>you can probably squeeze that in less as it also contains working dirs for the last builds
14:55<@planetmaker>thus a checkout of everything it ever built
14:55<@planetmaker>in the latest version of it
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14:57*andythenorth looks for smaller VM packages of Debian
14:58<@planetmaker>you probably want an image which provides something like openstack or so. As jenkins requires java
14:58<frosch123>planetmaker: andy does not need hudson :p
14:58<frosch123>he only wants a minimal vm with make, grfcodec and nml :)
14:59<@planetmaker>then I'd just run grfcodec under wine
14:59<@planetmaker>most easy and least overhead
14:59<@planetmaker>and compile it with a mingw cross-compiler ;)
14:59<andythenorth>I already have two windows VMs
14:59<andythenorth>but the idea of creating a windows dev newgrf environment makes me sick
15:01<frosch123>planetmaker: you mean running wine within the makefile? :o
15:01<@planetmaker>frosch123, no, just wine grfcodec
15:01<@planetmaker>though if you want grfcodec in the makefile... yes
15:01<frosch123>well, i assumed andy would run grfcodec via make, but, ok, he actually did not say that
15:02<andythenorth>it would be called from a python script, which make calls
15:02<fonsinchen>What is the problem with running grfcodec on OSX?
15:02<andythenorth>alternatively I rebuild the newgrf to work around the grfcodec failure
15:02<andythenorth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/6884
15:02<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/6884
15:03<andythenorth>I could run an image processing script to move all the sprites into a single spritesheet
15:05<fonsinchen>What about debugging grfcodec?
15:05<fonsinchen>Should be less work than setting up openstack or something similarly silly ...
15:06<@planetmaker>:)
15:07<andythenorth>I could try building gcc on OS X
15:07<andythenorth>and then compiling with gcc
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15:08<fonsinchen>OSX has that very nice lldb debugger. You don't need gcc to produce debuggable binaries
15:08-!-MTsPony [~marctraid@008-086-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl] has joined #openttd
15:10*andythenorth has never used a debugger
15:10<andythenorth>except the flash one which was slow
15:10<andythenorth>so I ignored it and wrote my own
15:10<andythenorth>I opened pdb once
15:10<andythenorth>what do I need to do?
15:11<fonsinchen>lldb grfcodec
15:11-!-tyteen4a03 [~tyteen4a0@Daedalusx.net] has joined #openttd
15:11<fonsinchen>run <grfcodec options>
15:11<fonsinchen>look at grfcodec source and try to figure out where it fails
15:12<fonsinchen>set breakpoints with (probably) "b <file>:<line>"
15:12-!-Supercheese [~Superchee@76.178.136.186] has joined #openttd
15:12<fonsinchen>"p <something>" should print current values of variables
15:13<andythenorth>so I’m in lldb
15:13<fonsinchen>do "run" just by itself and see what it says
15:13<fonsinchen>Do you know what a breakpoint does?
15:14<andythenorth>only approximately
15:14<andythenorth>in flash you set them in the ui, then inspect variables at that point
15:14<fonsinchen>it stops execution of the program as soon as it hits the point where you set the breakpoint.
15:15<fonsinchen>With raw lldb you have to set them by file/line
15:15<fonsinchen>then you can inspect variables when the breakpoint hits
15:15<andythenorth>it’s funny, I have been programming since I was 7 (29 years), but I am so ham-fisted :)
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15:16<fonsinchen>With "c" you should be able to continue execution
15:16<fonsinchen>(this is all assuming that lldb commands are the same as gdb commands, which is mostly true, but not always...)
15:17<andythenorth>I set the breakpoints in source and then compile?
15:18<andythenorth>or via lldb?
15:18<fonsinchen>you don't need to compile
15:18<fonsinchen>just do "b xyz.c:50" in lldb
15:18<fonsinchen>then "run" or "c", depending on if the program is stopped or hasn't been started, yet
15:18<fonsinchen>You can always do CTRL-C to interrupt it
15:19<fonsinchen>(but grfcodec is probably not such a long-running thing)
15:19<@Rubidium>I'd run the whole thing through valgrind first ;)
15:20<fonsinchen>Actually, I'd make sure it's compiled with -g first
15:20<fonsinchen>The last time I used grfcodec someone was making a point of compressing it to the smallest size possible, even using a binary compressor
15:21<fonsinchen>Without debug symbols debugging is no fun
15:21<fonsinchen>Running it through valgrind will be part of a different lesson
15:22*andythenorth is an expert in debugging with epic print statements :P
15:23<peter1139>Overwhelming urge to put down "emacs" after my opponent played "vim" in Scrabble...
15:23<andythenorth>don’t fight it
15:23<andythenorth>surely it’s valid?
15:23<frosch123>peter1139: invalid, before you can put down "vim" you first have to discard an "i"
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15:27<toobored>any idea with these industries: https://db.tt/BGw4MXdK
15:27<toobored>they are all suppliers in the same chain :D
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15:28<@planetmaker>toobored, what idea should we have?
15:29<toobored>how to setup the service :(
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15:30<@Alberth>lay tracks, add, station, build depot, build train, give orders
15:30<@planetmaker>^ like always :)
15:31<toobored>yeah yeah. but these are five industries and I was thinking to setup buses, transfer to huge station, ... , $$$
15:31<@Alberth>so what the problem?
15:32<frosch123>you can use firs trams to supply to a central station
15:32<andythenorth>hmm
15:32<@planetmaker>*heqs trams
15:32<frosch123>but if they have > 200 t/month production, it's better to use trains directly
15:32<frosch123>if they have > 2k/month production, it's better to use ships though :p
15:32<andythenorth>canals
15:33<andythenorth>I don’t _recall_ intending to troll oztrans with grfids
15:33<andythenorth>I usually remember when I wanted to troll someone
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15:33<andythenorth>have I done a bad?
15:34<frosch123>does it matter?
15:34<andythenorth>only that I wouldn’t intentionally block a known newgrf by taking it’s grfid
15:34<toobored>frosch123: they'll reach 1k/m I think
15:34<andythenorth>its *
15:34<@planetmaker>andythenorth, you did not do that.
15:35-!-Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #openttd
15:35<@planetmaker>you simply ran into his view that he owns CA**
15:35<@planetmaker>whether in use or not
15:36<@planetmaker>a range he actually declared discontinued to be used
15:37<andythenorth>apparently Road Hog overlaps Canadian Stations 1.6
15:37<andythenorth>¿ also what was the joke with "CA\12\1E"
15:37<andythenorth>for Iron Horse?
15:39<@planetmaker>the grfIDs are different
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15:47<andythenorth>frosch123: so any clues what I should be debugging for?
15:49<andythenorth>I assume I start by looking for the error string
15:49<frosch123>i guess start from where the png file is opened
15:50<frosch123>and then check the values libpng returns
15:50<frosch123>like image dimesions and stuff
15:50<andythenorth>pcxsprit.cpp ??
15:50<frosch123>you could also shorten the input grf, so it only processes the sprites with the whitespace warning and does not reach those causing the abort
15:50<frosch123>then you could check what it actually extracted and maybe guess what goes wrong
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15:51<andythenorth>the whitespace warning is spurious imho
15:51<andythenorth>it’s caused by me trying to ‘fix’ the out of bounds issue
15:51<andythenorth>although also maybe not
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15:52<frosch123>still, apparently it processes some sprites
15:52<frosch123>so, if you shorten the grf, so it actually finishes
15:52<andythenorth>yes
15:52<frosch123>you could check whether it actually encodes the start correctly
15:53<andythenorth>or rather, if I only reference one spritesheet
15:53<andythenorth>per action3
15:53<andythenorth>Road Hog encodes fine: one spritesheet per action 3
15:53<andythenorth>Iron Horse uses two different spritesheets per action 3 and bails
15:53<andythenorth>dunno about Snail and DanDan’s grfs though
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15:56<frosch123>well, if one png works, then add a single sprite from another png
15:56<frosch123>and hope that one still finishes
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16:03<andythenorth>I’ll need to make a test grf
16:04<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r26656 trunk/src/industry_gui.cpp (2014-06-20 20:04:10 UTC)
16:04<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6044]: Production cheat cannot not be allowed to be active in multiplayer for desync reasons, even when activated in singleplayer previously
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16:08<Pikka>andythenorth: do you not have a standard first-two-bytes-of-grfid you use?
16:09<andythenorth>Pikka: not so much
16:09<andythenorth>apparently
16:09<andythenorth>I just ask here until someone provides some form of bad joke
16:09<Pikka>oops :)
16:09<andythenorth>also lo Pikka
16:10<@planetmaker>tempest in a teapot :)
16:10<Pikka>lo andy
16:10<@planetmaker>o/
16:10<andythenorth>woe is andythenorth
16:10<andythenorth>grfcodec is broken on os x
16:10<Pikka>isn't it always, with OzTrans & co?
16:11<@Rubidium>andythenorth: F09F908E might be a nice GRF ID for Iron Horse as well
16:11<andythenorth>hmm
16:11<andythenorth>CHIPS also broken for me
16:12<andythenorth>HEQS also, for different reasons
16:12<Pikka>what did you do to grfcodec?
16:12<andythenorth>got a new OS
16:12<@planetmaker>keep debugging :)
16:13<andythenorth>planetmaker: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3453/
16:13<andythenorth>not too bothered about HEQS tbh
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16:13<Pikka>no-one else uses os x? wasn't openttd for os x broken for a while?
16:13<Pikka>due to lack of testers?
16:13<@planetmaker>that looks very sad, andythenorth :(
16:13<@Rubidium>s/test/develop/
16:13<andythenorth>I just kept on using the broken version :P
16:14<@planetmaker>is heqs really nfo? :)
16:14<andythenorth>yes
16:14<andythenorth>Pikka: have you tried the Hog?
16:14<Pikka>not lately I don't think
16:15<Pikka>I've been busy not working on av10
16:15<andythenorth>very time consuming that
16:15<andythenorth>it takes a lot of effort to not work on a grf
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16:15<Pikka>it does, you have to do a lot of browsing the internet and watching tv
16:16*Pikka has exactly 1 month until uni starts, maybe I should try and get av10 done in that time
16:16<andythenorth>have you graduated yet?
16:17<andythenorth>oh, you just started :P
16:17<Pikka>si
16:18<andythenorth>can we delete drive-in roadstops?
16:18<Pikka>no, only drive-through ones
16:18<Pikka>they're a bad feature
16:19<andythenorth>can I pick up mail at pax stops?
16:19<andythenorth>splitting the bus / truck stations is a bad feature
16:19<Pikka>sure, just change the cargo classes
16:19<Pikka>what's the worst that can happen?
16:19<andythenorth>actually, not a lot :P
16:19<andythenorth>probably
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16:20<Pikka>so
16:20<Pikka>in order to make av10 less appealing, I got rid of the concorde
16:20<andythenorth>good move
16:21<Pikka>there is also no jumbo-sized plane until 2015, most of the planes are around 100 passenger size, and none of the jets can use small airports
16:22<andythenorth>:(
16:22<andythenorth>small airports are the best
16:22<andythenorth>the only kind to use
16:22<Pikka>on the plus side, there's only 4 jets
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16:23<Pikka>small airports are the best, but so are non-jets.
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16:24<Pikka>I should start a forum poll about autorefitting, but first I need to make a plane to show off. :/
16:25<frosch123>we renamed it to station-refitting
16:25<Pikka>well, about that then
16:26<Pikka>andythenorth, where is current hog?
16:26<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/road-hog/push/LATEST/
16:27<andythenorth>you spend a long time waiting for new vehicles
16:27<Pikka>and then 26 come along at once?
16:27<andythenorth>no
16:27<andythenorth>maybe 6
16:28<andythenorth>RVs are crappy until the 50s
16:28<andythenorth>but not so crappy you won’t use them
16:28<andythenorth>graphics are ‘provisional’ in most cases :P
16:33<peter1139>andythenorth is 'provisional' in most cases
16:33<peter1139>sorry, ‘provisional’
16:34<andythenorth>is that a provisional commen?
16:34<andythenorth>comment *
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16:38<Eddi|zuHause>nothing is more permanent than the povisional
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16:40<andythenorth>can you be provisionally dead?
16:40<andythenorth>you / one /s
16:41<andythenorth>hmm
16:44<andythenorth>fonsinchen: in April you pointed me to your cdist repo + gave me patches to test waybill, I’m still playing that patched version…
16:44<andythenorth>should I remove the patch and update to head yet?
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16:45<fonsinchen>I think we decided not to put the waybill thing in
16:45<fonsinchen>With the other fixes I did it doesn't add much over asymmetric anymore
16:45<andythenorth>plausible
16:46<andythenorth>so I should start the next game with asymmetric
16:46<andythenorth>from ottd repo, or yours?
16:46<andythenorth>do you have other fixes needing tested?
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16:47<fonsinchen>Just use openttd master
16:48<fonsinchen>Nothing spectacular in my repo at the moment
16:48<andythenorth>thanks
16:49<fonsinchen>Oh, and tell me if you think that waybill was better than asymetric ...
16:50<andythenorth>yup
16:50<andythenorth>waybill seems to work fine for simple routes
16:50<andythenorth>it stumbles with long complex feeder chains
16:51<andythenorth>I get a lot of cargo waiting that I just can’t clear
16:51<andythenorth>otherwise works as expected
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16:57<@DorpsGek>Commit by planetmaker :: r26657 /trunk/src (60 files in 3 dirs) (2014-06-20 20:57:32 UTC)
16:57<@DorpsGek>-Add [FS#6047]: Days in dates are not represented by ordinal numbers in all languages
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>what do they use instead?
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>regular numbers?
17:02<frosch123>"january one" instead of "january first"
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17:17<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26658 /trunk/src/lang (61 files in 2 dirs) (2014-06-20 21:17:15 UTC)
17:17<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:17<@DorpsGek>estonian - 1 changes by
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17:35<andythenorth>PIPE
17:35<andythenorth>is interesting
17:37-!-DabuYu [DabuYu@128.250.79.238] has joined #openttd
17:37<frosch123>looking for new grfids? :)
17:38<frosch123>pipes do not really steam though
17:38-!-Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit []
17:39<andythenorth>I just created a signalled pipeline
17:39<andythenorth>bit dubious
17:39<@planetmaker>:)
17:40<@planetmaker>I see a clear road to my bed though. Tempting to take
17:40<andythenorth>+1
17:40<@planetmaker>good night :)
17:40<andythenorth>bye
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18:22<luaduck>is there some super magic way to get openttd to autoload the last autosave on start?
18:26<FLHerne>luaduck: Bash script to select the most recently-saved one, maybe?
18:27<FLHerne>I don't know of a clever built-in switch, but I haven't done much with a server for ages
18:30<FLHerne>Hmm, openttd -g `ls -t1 ~/.openttd/save/autosave | head -n1` does seem to work
18:33<FLHerne>Not well though, working dir is wrong unless you're actually in the autosave dir. But whatever.
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18:39<FLHerne>One Google later, 'openttd -g `ls -dt1 ~/.openttd/save/autosave/* | head -n1`' works. I should remember these things :-(
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19:11<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sat Jun 21 00:00:13 2014