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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-06-21

---Logopened Sat Jun 21 00:00:13 2014
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04:30<supermop>should make an industry set where every cargo is just 'containers'
04:31<supermop>and every industry accepts containers to produce containers
04:31<@planetmaker>for better effect call the cargo 'stuff'
04:31<supermop>i guess you need a container mine to get stared
04:31<@planetmaker>containers are just the packaging unit it is shipped in
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04:34<V453000>or Closed Goods
04:34<Wolf01>hello o/
04:34<V453000>never to be seen in the Closed wagons (:
04:36<supermop>better yet full pallets+empty container -> full container
04:39<supermop>stuff+empty pallets -> factory -> full pallets, full pallets+empty container -> warehouse -> full containers -> distribution center -> mail + empty pallets + empty continers
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04:39<supermop>then you take the empty containers and pallets to be building materials for trendy modern restaurants and homes
04:40<Diablo-D3>heh, I just did 8000 pop on in 5 years.
04:41<supermop>and amazon drones take the mail from distribution center to houses
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10:25<@Alberth>hi hi
10:26<andythenorth>drones are a missing cargo type
10:26<andythenorth>and the PIPE grf seems pretty good so far
10:26<andythenorth>the engines are weirdly presented though
10:27<andythenorth>coloured letters used freely
10:27<@Alberth>like meow :)
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10:29<andythenorth>he uses low capacity, high speed engines
10:29<andythenorth>works ok
10:29<andythenorth>I’d probably have used super-high-capacity, low speed
10:29<andythenorth>but I guess he knows what he’s doing
10:30<V453000>that guess is wrong on so many levels andythenorth :P
10:30<andythenorth>V453000: fancy making a pipeline grf with me? o_O
10:31*andythenorth wonders if V approves of pipelines
10:31<@Alberth>we need a powerline anyway :)
10:32<@Alberth>although yetis may not approve of stealing their batteries
10:32<andythenorth>and have power stations produce electricity?
10:33<Pikka>articulated electricity!
10:33<andythenorth>articulated electric ships!
10:35<andythenorth>articulated road types, with newgrf fields
10:36<andythenorth>I should try and fix grfcodec :|
10:37<andythenorth>I found some stuff I didn’t understand about compiling some C++ things against the 10.6 std-lib
10:37<andythenorth>which might be unrelated, and I don’t know how to do it anyway
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>that's always a good start to know what you don't know
10:38<andythenorth>it would take a long time to enumerate all the things I know I don’t know
10:38<andythenorth>we don’t have that long :(
10:38<V453000>I have no clue wtf to do with pipelines andy
10:38<V453000>or what do you mean by it
10:38<andythenorth>have you tried PIPE?
10:39<andythenorth>makes oil transport less boring
10:40<V453000>well I looked at the trains it gives
10:40<andythenorth>hmm I could ro-ro it
10:41<andythenorth>would make more sense than terminals with signalled passing loops
10:41<V453000>aha this shit
10:41<V453000>idk, nothing to look at there?
10:41<V453000>if it at least looked nice
10:42<V453000>But I do believe the idea could be interpreted nicely
10:43<V453000>I would probably make something like "canals" though, so the "cargo inside" can be seen
10:43<andythenorth>the signals are bad
10:43<andythenorth>I think it could be improved
10:43<andythenorth>there’s no point doing realistic
10:43<andythenorth>the signals should be arrows on the ground
10:43<andythenorth>and the trains should be visible
10:43<andythenorth>I am trying to rebuild a route and I’m inevitably going to have a crash
10:44<V453000>yes :)
10:44<V453000>creating something like trenches in the ground with -thing- filling them could look great
10:44<V453000>Could. :)
10:44<V453000>probably requires some offset wtfing
10:45<V453000>bridges would be very wtf
10:45<V453000>tunnels just as much
10:45<V453000>ok then pipe above ground :D can be like a square half-pipe
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10:45<V453000>and trains are just bricks of -liquid-
10:45<V453000>would actually not be very hard or long to draw
10:46<V453000>if you help me code yeti, I will help you draw your pipe :)
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>get a room...
10:49<V453000>: D
10:49<V453000>not like we are disturbing any other communication
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11:53<mist>if i place an airport between two cities but both of them are inside the purple "coverage" squares, will it give delivered goods to both cities or only one?
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12:03<frosch123>only the town it is named after
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12:22<Eddi|zuHause>it's the default name that counts, so renaming does not help
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>what does help is building a bus station in the town you desire the target and then connecting the airport to it (via ctrl+click)
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26659 trunk/src/lang/catalan.txt (2014-06-21 17:45:12 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan - 31 changes by juanjo
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13:55<Argensis>Hey, anyone know what "You can't build a railway station here" with no cause listed could be caused by?
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14:00<@planetmaker>Argensis, many things... are there slopes? are all tiles clear?
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14:01<Argensis>Blank grass tiles, just outside a city where I have a very good rating
14:01<Argensis>Tried a few more things and it seems to be just one station set which won't let me (the city stations grf)
14:02<Argensis>I guess it must have some restriction on dates or something.
14:02<@planetmaker>newgrfs can require certain sizes. And possibly other things
14:02<@planetmaker>like dates or whatever. dunno
14:02<@planetmaker>ask the grf author what requirements a certain station has
14:02<@planetmaker>maybe it has a readme which explains stuff?
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14:12<Argensis>As far as I can tell, tht's on the author's wiki which has ceased to exist
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14:24<MTsPony>can someone here explain why faster moving trains increase cpu usage? when i enable wagon speed limits or replace trains with ones that are twice as slow, cpu usage drops in half.
14:24<MTsPony>strange thing is it only affects stuff visible
14:25<MTsPony>so it cant be the pathfinder since it doesnt have any effect if i move my camera out of train range
14:26<MTsPony>is it because trains redraw themselves more?
14:28*FLHerne can't think of another good reason
14:31<@planetmaker>seems likely. you can quickly test when you minimize openttd and observe cpu usage
14:31<@planetmaker>or just change window size.
14:31<MTsPony>yeh im pretty sure its the reason :(
14:32<MTsPony>can you guys implement a function so it reduces rhe drawing for faster trains? lol
14:33<MTsPony>skip drawing on every other frame :p
14:33<@Rubidium>not without making the trains seem behaving weirdly
14:33<@Rubidium>which would trigger bug reports
14:33<MTsPony>isnt it less noticable the higher speed the train goes?
14:34<@planetmaker>even more noticable. They will start jumping
14:34<MTsPony>wouldnt be to hard to make it an optional setting?
14:35<@planetmaker>Sorry, such setting, I don't think it makes sense
14:36<MTsPony>anything else apart from,disabling smoke and animations to reduce cpu usage?
14:37<FLHerne>MTsPony: Ships are still lag-inducing. Cargodist can eat quite a bit of CPU if enabled.
14:37<MTsPony>im talking about visuals on the screen
14:37<@Rubidium>are you using NewGRFs?
14:37<@planetmaker>zoom-in :)
14:37<@Rubidium>especially for trains?
14:37<MTsPony>well sure,
14:37<FLHerne>MTsPony: The less other stuff is using CPU time, the more time is available for the blitter to blit things
14:38<MTsPony>i am using alot of train grfs yeah, would that significantly increase cpu usage just by looking at em?
14:38<@Rubidium>if those use weird animation triggers or other stuff, that could mean OpenTTD has to ask/execute some NewGRF code for each and every time the train moves
14:39<@Rubidium>especially when changing direction
14:39<MTsPony>right, like some locos make animation right?
14:39<MTsPony>im not sure if the global setting also disables those,tho
14:39<@Rubidium>and we need to do those checks even when they are not drawn, because we a cache of the (viewport) location of vehicles is much more efficient than looping over every vehicle when trying to determine what to (re)draw
14:40<MTsPony>well my original question was more about the direct link to train speed and cpu isage
14:41<@Rubidium>higher train speed -> more reasons to ask NewGRF certain things about the sprites of the train -> more CPU usage
14:41<MTsPony>mhh yeh good point i guess
14:42<MTsPony>do other clients on the same server have to do the same calcs?
14:42<@planetmaker>yes, all. and the server
14:43<MTsPony>tho, dosnt the dedicated server skip graphic business?
14:44<MTsPony>isnt that what the "dedicated" video driver is for?
14:45<MTsPony>i guess,that just means it doesnt render any screen output
14:45<@Rubidium>it's to provide a binary that doesn't need a load of windowing system libraries to just run and not show anything
14:46<MTsPony>last question then, why does the dedicated server refuse to run when i set the resolution to 1,1 whereas 1,20 or somethinglike 13,13 stil works? lol
14:49<MTsPony>guess that question has no logical answer lol,thanks tho
14:50<@Rubidium>well, please answer it yourself
14:50<@Rubidium>as it works for me
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14:55<andythenorth>V453000: that was a nice room we went in
14:55<andythenorth>let’s do it again some time
15:04<MTsPony>what decides the spot for the camera when you load a game or join a server? i was under the impression it was stored in the savegame but i tried changing the spot,,save and load but it doesnt change
15:04<MTsPony>or is it decided by scenario editor only?
15:04<frosch123>top-left corner is stored
15:05<frosch123>when you join a game, the server defines it
15:05<MTsPony>any way to change it in an already running game?
15:05<frosch123>maybe rcon scrollto
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15:06<MTsPony>thanks illtry that
15:13<andythenorth>I actually know of no reason why Road Hog has that grfid
15:13<andythenorth>and as a satisfied customer of Canadian Stations, it seems a bit close
15:27<@planetmaker>grids can differ by one and it doesn't matter...
15:28<@planetmaker>thus any 'too close' is artificial at best
15:29<andythenorth>there is / was a convention of incrementing grfids
15:29<andythenorth>81 / FE are pretty close
15:30<@planetmaker>@calc 0xFE - 0x81
15:30<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 125
15:30<@planetmaker>room for quite a few. More than I care to write in my life
15:30<andythenorth>I dunno, Canadian stuff gets released pretty often...
15:30<frosch123>lol, are you differing in only one byte? :p
15:31<frosch123>andythenorth: CA is deprecated, ozt uses a different prefix today
15:31<frosch123>there won't be no new
15:31<frosch123>what's the third byte?
15:32<andythenorth>turn it up
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: afair the reason for chosing this grfid was specifically this "i reserve 1 million GRFIDs that nobody else may use" crap
15:32<andythenorth>nah, that was Iron Horse
15:32<andythenorth>I reckon
15:32<andythenorth>this one smells of accident
15:33<andythenorth>trolling should be deliberate
15:34<@planetmaker>possibly I trolled you both by suggesting it
15:34<@planetmaker>but I don't recall
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure i took part in that discussion
15:35<andythenorth>someone read the logs
15:35<andythenorth>then I can comment the code :P
15:35<andythenorth>I searched my transcripts, but my client is crappy for search
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but that's not when it was decided?
15:41<@planetmaker>dunno when it was decided. I really go no clue
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15:43<andythenorth>at least we have something to talk about :P
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>this one seems to be about iron horse:
15:45<frosch123>planetmaker: apparently that was the decision :)
15:45<frosch123>the grfid commit is 2014-03-09 20:53
15:46<frosch123>^^ eddi actually
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15:49<FLHerne>Huh, if I ever properly finish these pointless objects I'll actually have a valid reason to use a CAxx id :P
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15:50<frosch123>just put it into the specs: if you have no idea what grfid to use, make it start with CA :)
15:50<fonsinchen>It seems like OzTrans' move gave ideas to everyone
15:50*fonsinchen gets chips and beer
15:50<andythenorth>oh it’s frosch’s fault
15:50<frosch123>nah, too boring
15:50<andythenorth>I see
15:51<frosch123>what did i do?
15:51<andythenorth>suggested CA because Dan is Canadian
15:51<frosch123>ah, that one
15:51<andythenorth>the nice thing is that everyone automatically assumed I was trolling
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15:52<@DorpsGek>Commit by fonsinchen :: r26660 trunk/src/cargopacket.h (2014-06-21 19:52:52 UTC)
15:52<@DorpsGek>-Fix: CargoPacket::SourceStation() returns a StationID.
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes the time is just right for everything to come together :)
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>half a year earlier the outcome probably would have been entirely different
15:55<andythenorth>PIPE should offer two sizes of pipeline :P
15:55<andythenorth>this one isn’t big enough
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: anyway, the answer for that question "it's a joke, but i have no clue what it is" apparently is: "CA" for being CA, and 1830 as the start year
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15:56<andythenorth>I updated the comment in code ;)
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>i still think BCD would have been better...
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16:08<andythenorth>PIPE is my new favourite thing
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>there was a disturbance in the force
16:13<frosch123>laser pipe?
16:14<FLHerne>ten-foot laser pole, wasn't it?
16:15<andythenorth>did anyone make a new Silicon Valley yet?
16:15<frosch123>oh, didn't know that actually made it into a grf
16:15<andythenorth>frosch123: it did, and it’s surprisingly good
16:15<andythenorth>I was prepared to disdain it :P
16:16<andythenorth>so that answers all future requests for pipelines
16:16<andythenorth>it would also work for electricity too
16:16<andythenorth>but that’s a BAD FEATURE
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it's the perfect thing for a rondje-style network
16:17<andythenorth>I just get cycling in Holland
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: buy the vehicle at one end, and sell it on the other end after unloading
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16:21<andythenorth>I would definitely definitely look for ‘Share orders’ under the ‘Go to’ dropdown
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>in any case, i think it's the wrong way to implement pipelines. pipelines aren't fast, they are slow, but each time something is pushed in one end, somethhing comes out at the other end
16:22<frosch123>how unrealistic
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>also, i think it's better as roadtype
16:23<andythenorth>yes, we have lots of those spare
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16:24<Eddi|zuHause>now this force thing is just disturbing
16:25<@Rubidium>... but... when you push something in, it won't come out until after a delay
16:25<@Rubidium>after all, the pressure wave needs to propagate
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: sure, but my point is the actual cargo doesn't travel nearly as fast as the pressure wave
16:28<@Rubidium>though you can model the the input to output delay by using fast vehicles
16:28<andythenorth>and gameplay…? :P
16:29<@Rubidium>in a sense it's all a black box and you don't need to care about the internal implementation
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: it does significantly affect the payment curve
16:30<andythenorth>I think he has it about right with fast vehicles
16:30<andythenorth>I would have done slow, but it would be boring
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>slow definitely collides with the railway system, signals, junctions, etc.
16:32<andythenorth>I think his implementation is quite nice
16:32<andythenorth>the graphics for signals are horrible
16:33<andythenorth>and there are too many incremental upgrades to engines
16:34<@planetmaker>pipes should not have upgrades really, should they?
16:34<andythenorth>he upgrades the ‘pumps’ (trains)
16:34<@planetmaker>well, maybe... yeah
16:34<andythenorth>more HP etc
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>there may be a case for introducing a junction-less pipeline network type, for oil, electricity, cable cars, etc.
16:36<andythenorth>I proposed ‘continuous flow’ years ago
16:36<andythenorth>now I sound like MB :)
16:37<andythenorth>one day I will be MB
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>ski lifts
16:37<@Alberth>it worked in TTDPatch flawlessly
16:38<andythenorth>no junctions = no depots
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>whenever a <capacity unit> amount at the loading station is available, all entities on the pipe are pushed along on the pipeline
16:38<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: sounds nice :)
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>basically each loading step.
16:39<andythenorth>one in, one out
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>question is what happens when during a loading step, the amount is not available
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>push an empty unit, or don't push?
16:42<andythenorth>otherwise networks block horribly
16:42<andythenorth>or add network segments or something
16:42<andythenorth>can’t think what benefit segments have
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>you make segments by putting a pumping station inbetween
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16:52<andythenorth>frosch123: for the record, SV with FIRS Arctic Basic, Manufacturing Supplies
16:52<andythenorth>is a good combo
16:53<frosch123>yay, a happy customer :)
16:54<andythenorth>it has just the right degree of connectedness in the cargos
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18:18<Eddi|zuHause>back then there were actually radio shows that transmitted computer programs. which you could record on tape and then load into the computer
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>but that was way before my time...
18:23<__ln__>there were, yes... (and was before my time too). but the most shocking thing about it is that there were radioshows about programming computers.
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18:25<Eddi|zuHause>well, then there were tv shows, and then youtube videos, and...
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>nowadays i keep thinking how did anyone ever get work done without googling how to do it first...
18:28<__ln__>yeah, any work
18:28<Wolf01>'night all
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>funny bit on the side: i learned HTML before i ever went on the internet
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18:29<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: we used to read books :)
18:29<@Alberth>and man pages :p
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18:30<Taede>and 'wonder what this does'
18:30<Taede>lets try it
18:30<@Alberth>if it looked harmless enough, yeah :)
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18:31<Eddi|zuHause>it's a red button labeled "don't press this", what could possiblygo wrong...
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21:00<Eddi|zuHause>oh nightly database backup, i wonder why we haven't met in quite a while
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---Logclosed Sun Jun 22 00:00:15 2014