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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-06-22

---Logopened Sun Jun 22 00:00:15 2014
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04:28<@Alberth>o/
04:29<@Rubidium>d
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04:55<Wolf01>hi hi
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05:01<@Alberth>moin
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05:23<Taede>mornin
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05:43<@Alberth>hai
05:46<Phreeze>hi
05:46<Phreeze>any linux guys here ? upgraded server from ubuntu12 to 14, and my VNC has serious problems
05:46<Phreeze>cant type an S or D
05:47<Phreeze>seems to be a problem with keyboard shortcuts, but when using gnome-panel, there's even no keyboard setting....got all the rest of the bunch even the menu for phpmyadmin and so...
05:51<Diablo-D3>try upgrading to a better distro ;)
05:53<@Alberth>or a more sane window manager :p
05:54<Phreeze>i just want a desktop i can connect to to start wine and some firefox or so....
05:54<Phreeze>vncserver + some gnome worked perfectly...
05:54<Phreeze>it's the fuck unity that came with it i guess
06:00<Zuu>Newsflash: gnome (at least in Debian Jessie) has an option to get back the old applications menu
06:02<Phreeze>finally got the keys back
06:03<Phreeze>after removing unity etc...
06:03<Phreeze>was supposed to be deleted already....enough playing with some apt-gets fixed it ;)
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06:18<Diablo-D3>Phreeze: just use deb sid bro
06:19*Rubidium wouldn't quite suggest sid for servers
06:20*Rubidium wouldn't suggest dist-upgrading sid from 18 months ago to now in one go either ;)
06:41*Diablo-D3 uses sid on servers.
06:43-!-crosbow [~crosbow@aczj63.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd
06:44<crosbow>is there a way to give all vehicules in a group the shared order?
06:44<@Alberth>not that I know
06:45<crosbow>because when i make a route not with shared order but copy vehicle.. now i added stations and i have to update 150 vehicles..
06:46<@Alberth>you know you can also share the order while copying by doing ctrl+click?
06:47<crosbow>but thats still a task? :D
06:47<crosbow>it would be nice if you could add the button: manage list -> add shared order to allvehicles in group and then you click the one vehicle that you want his orders from
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06:48<@Alberth>usually people use ctrl+click to start with, so they never run into your problem
06:48<crosbow>but it would convenient
06:49<@Alberth>oh I agree there, groups are quite basic to say the least :)
06:49<crosbow>yes lets extend them to fields! ;-D
06:50<crosbow>saying that i should refresh my algreba knowlegde
06:50<Diablo-D3>crosbow: control-click to clone
06:50<Diablo-D3>it does exactly what you want
06:50<crosbow>:( but its too late
06:50<crosbow>i already earned 10 billion
06:51<crosbow>ok bye i have to walk my dog.. i hope some developers will add this feature ;D
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07:23<Phreeze>dont know that much about linux insider tips ;)
07:29<@Alberth>what is there to know, it's usually just english text :p
07:29<Phreeze>like alternative desktop window managers
07:31<@Alberth>that works just like all other software, pick one, try it, if it is a PITA, find a better one, repeat
07:34<fonsinchen>... forever
07:34<fonsinchen>window managers are a PITA, just live with it or write your own.
07:37<Zuu>And there is a *lot* of different alternative window managers if you want to try them all.
07:38<Zuu>Including concepts like tiling window managers.
07:38<fonsinchen>That's because everyone is writing their own.
07:39<Phreeze>i dont want to have crap on the server or stuff thats running that shouldnt etc
07:40<Zuu>If it is a server, why have a window manager at all?
07:40<Zuu>If you install debian, you can opt out to not even get the X server.
07:47<Diablo-D3>its not opting out as much as just not installing it
07:49<Phreeze>because i NEED THE GRAPHICAL INTERFACE ?
07:50<Phreeze>wine + utorrent needed
07:53<@Alberth>normally you run the X server and windowy stuff at the system with the screen
07:54<@Alberth>and tunnel you x11 connection with ssh from the reomote
07:54<@Alberth>or perhaps to the remote :)
07:55<@Alberth>unix has separated the concepts of machine where you sit behind from the machine where you work at
08:00<peter1139>Sadly most apps use client-side rendering these days :(
08:04<Phreeze>im not at all into that X stuff
08:05<Phreeze>lol Vettel out again....
08:06<@Alberth>it's not about X, it's about how you access a remote machine
08:06<Phreeze>ssh for nongraphical stuff ;)
08:07<Phreeze>but wine needs a graphical interface
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08:07<@Alberth>no, ssh for remote access, everything
08:08<@Alberth>X is an extra service you can have
08:09<@Alberth>you really don't want 2 ways to access a remote, it's hard enough to keep one access methods reasonable secure
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08:10<Phreeze>if ssh isnt secure, i dont care anymore about any security....
08:10<Phreeze>it's 1 port and it's ultrabasic
08:11<Phreeze>for VNC i need 1 port, changed from default, same goes for ssh... + fail2ban that bans after 3 tries...i don't know how i could be more secure
08:11<peter1139>Remember when we used telnet...?
08:11<Phreeze>telnet sucks :D
08:12<@Alberth>I have been using it, mostly on a private lan
08:13<frosch123>remember when password only had 8 significant characters?
08:14<@Alberth>the number 13 pops up in my mind, but maybe that was later?
08:16<frosch123>i just remember a mail from 2008 or so from the admin, stating that password must be at least 8 chars, but there are some machines in the basement which only support 8, so we should use exactly 8 :p
08:16<@Alberth>:)
08:17<@Alberth>you sent a thank you for reducing the search space? :D
08:18<frosch123>well, as long as the admins use a group root account, and consider it too complicated to use different passwords...
08:19<@Alberth>I went through university without ssh, I am pretty sure, but I did very little remote access as all work stations had a a screen
08:20<frosch123>no need to remember your password, if you can just ask people on the corridor for the root password :)
08:20<@Alberth>:)
08:20<@Rubidium>oh, you mean a simple 7 letter password for administrator that are not changed ever, but there being a rule that you need to change your password every 3 months of at least 8 characters long with some particular minimum complexity
08:21<@Alberth>never did that stuff on university computers, I had a Linux 386 to experiment with of my own
08:21<frosch123>Rubidium: yeah, something like that
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08:54<Eddi|zuHause><Phreeze> wine + utorrent needed <-- use transmission or somesuch
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>it can run on the server without GUI, and you can connect to it from your local computer
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>even through your browser
10:43<Xaroth|Work>or rtorrent
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11:03<__ln__>@seen SmatZ
11:03<@DorpsGek>__ln__: SmatZ was last seen in #openttd 46 weeks, 5 days, 17 hours, 31 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: <SmatZ> wish I were so lucky...
11:03<MTsPony>can someone tell me what ICU does with openttd? can i leave it out safely for compilation?
11:05<@Rubidium>if the language you intend to use is 100% ASCII and uses the ASCII order of letters to sort, then you can leave it out safely
11:07<@Rubidium>if your language requires right-to-left or fancy composition of characters, then you're completely screwed without ICU
11:07<@Rubidium>in all other cases it's probable that only the sorting of texts is wrong
11:09<MTsPony>im just asking because it looks like its doubling the compiled binary output
11:09<MTsPony>i think
11:10<MTsPony>7>iculx.lib(ParagraphLayout.obj) : warning LNK4099: PDB 'vc100.pdb' was not found with 'iculx.lib(ParagraphLayout.obj)' or at 'C:\ottdsrc\objs\Win32\Release\vc100.pdb'; linking object as if no debug info
11:10<MTsPony>and it gives some warnings when linking
11:15<@Rubidium>those warnings are mostly harmless
11:16<MTsPony>im just not sure why my binary is 14mb big
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>made a debug build instead of a release build?
11:17<MTsPony>usin intel compiler :p
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>that was not the question
11:19<MTsPony>yeh ill try that thx
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>try running "strip"
11:19<MTsPony>k
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11:26<@planetmaker>hi ho
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12:16<@Alberth>o/
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12:22<andythenorth>o/
12:23<frosch123>so, everyone is coming home :)
12:23<andythenorth>oic
12:24<@Alberth>hi andy, I was just wondering where you were, I have a glitchy ship http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/glitchy_nieuwpoort_container_feeder_squid_alpha_5.png
12:24<@planetmaker>yeah, everybody getting home. Scary wind to sail today :)
12:25<frosch123>yeah, heavy sun wind
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12:25<@planetmaker>nah, that was mostly shielded by clouds :)
12:25<frosch123>not here :)
12:26<@planetmaker>you also live in or near Germany's sunniest part :)
12:26<frosch123>sorry, my fault :)
12:27<@planetmaker>definitely. Can't be excused I'm afraid. Though I wonder that you're sorry about it :P
12:29*andythenorth had to drink wine
12:29<andythenorth>a hard sunday
12:29<@planetmaker>sounds like serious hardship, too
12:29<@planetmaker>:)
12:29<frosch123>i think this town is even called "bavarian nice"
12:29-!-Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit []
12:30<frosch123>(as in "nice", the italian town)
12:30<@Alberth>nice :)
12:30<frosch123>or french?
12:30<frosch123>yeah, it's french :/
12:32<frosch123>the german name for that town does not sound particulary french, so i just claim that it has been italian at some point in time :)
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>the old local languages down there sound more like italian than french anyway
12:39<MTsPony>hey guys im trying to apply a patch to opemttd but once i do that the visual studio project files disappear
12:39<MTsPony>openttd_vs100.sln etc
12:39<MTsPony>so i cant load it into VS2010 anymore
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>run projects/generate(.vbs)
12:40<MTsPony>well imfigured i had to,regenerate em
12:41<__ln__>there's also monaco of bavaria
12:41<MTsPony>it says generating openttd_vs80.vcproj80
12:42<MTsPony>then i click ok and it gives an error
12:42<MTsPony>file not found :/
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12:53<MTsPony>seems to be going wrong at line 318
12:59<MTsPony>ok redid everything same deal :/
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13:08<MTsPony>what is it trying to open?
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13:15<@planetmaker>MTsPony, we know neither the patch nor the error you get. How can we do more than do random guesses if you don't show us the patch and a verbatim copy&paste in a pastebin of the error with more than one line context in the console?
13:15<michi_cc>MTsPony: If a patch causes them to "disappear", I'd wager the patch is either faulty or the applying part didn't work.
13:15<MTsPony>yeh as soon as i apply the patch they all disappear except for generate files
13:16<MTsPony>tho im patchin with tortoise
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13:16<MTsPony>in linux it didnt seem to even touch anythig but cpp files
13:18<MTsPony>does a patch like daylenght actually needs to patch those project files in the first place?
13:18<MTsPony>i thought it should merely patch .cpp files
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13:21<MTsPony>k i think i can manage from here, thx you did help actually :p
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13:26<Eddi|zuHause>these files need to be touched when new .cpp files are added
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>and a few other corner cases, which should be rare
13:27<@Rubidium>so... apparantly a patchpack named spring 2013 is "very close" to 1.4 (first release in spring of 2014)
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: afair the "spring 2013 patch pack" was updated in 2014
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>and with "very close" they mean "it contains cargodist" :p
13:28<@Rubidium>then chillpp is close to 1.4 as well
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>at least it's closer than chillpp, which has no grfv8 support
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13:32<@Rubidium>@calc 80088-56280
13:32<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 23808
13:34<@Rubidium>it's quite unclear what version that patch is based on
13:35<@Rubidium>but... at least is has ~24000 Russian town names
13:35<@planetmaker>lol
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13:40<@Rubidium>apparantly the patch is against r26385 but some things are badly merged (or not at all)
13:40<@Rubidium>anyhow, a 4.3 MiB patch ain't fun
13:41<@Rubidium>and it's a badly made patch anyhow
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>i've never ever looked at it
13:42<@Rubidium>it even adds an "old russian" translation
13:43<DigitalFox>Hi everyone :)
13:44<DigitalFox>Been a couple of years since the last time here.
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13:44<DigitalFox>Anyway, I'm compiling Open in Visual Studio in release mode and my EXE is almost 14MB.
13:44<@planetmaker>that's to be expected
13:45<DigitalFox>The official release is like 8 or 9 MB, so what may I be doing wrong?
13:45<@planetmaker>if you compile with ICU and don't use a cut-down ICU library
13:45<@planetmaker>you do nothing wrong. We use a special-crafted library
13:45<DigitalFox>Well I do get warnings about ICU
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13:46<@planetmaker>that's icu. :)
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13:46<DigitalFox>Ok
13:46<@planetmaker> likely. dunno what warning you get, though
13:46<@Rubidium>well, I guess it's the one about the .pdb
13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26661 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2014-06-22 17:46:32 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>italian - 15 changes by lorenzodv
13:46<@DorpsGek>korean - 1 changes by telk5093
13:46<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 19 changes by Stabilitronas
13:46<@DorpsGek>brazilian_portuguese - 4 changes by Tucalipe
13:46<@DorpsGek>slovak - 1 changes by Milsa
13:47<DigitalFox>A bunch of "4>icule.lib(ArabicLayoutEngine.obj) : warning LNK4099: PDB 'vc100.pdb' was not found with 'icule.lib(..."
13:50<@Rubidium>that's harmless
13:53<DigitalFox>Yeah
13:54<DigitalFox>planetmaker: I took a look at the source of GFX+ Industries and compiled a GRF that no longer overwrites the sprites of Farm and Iron Ore of Zbase. Is it ok if I post that GRF in GFX Industries topic?
13:55<@planetmaker>DigitalFox, I assume such grf - if you don't include the zbase sprites - will lack the ground awareness which OpenGFX+Industries actually has - and why it re-defines the graphics
13:55<DigitalFox>Yes
13:56<DigitalFox>This mainly just for temperate without snow
13:56<@planetmaker>But yes, you can post it, if you publish the patch which creates the grf and the grf preferentially as full bundle (make bundle_tar) which contains readme/license/changelog (include yours)
13:56<@planetmaker>basically: mind the license, then all is fine :)
13:57<@planetmaker>(or if you want, not patch, but full source)
13:57<DigitalFox>Oh I don't want any credits :)
13:57<@planetmaker>but you changed it :)
13:57<DigitalFox>It's just for anyone using 32bpp that migh help
13:57<@planetmaker>I didn't release it, so, it's yours to claim the authorship of the changes you make
13:59<DigitalFox>ok, later I'll just have to figure the tar thing
13:59<@planetmaker>tar is just an archive which contains grf, readme, license and changelog
14:00<@planetmaker>an archive format which OpenTTD can read
14:00<DigitalFox>Yeah I know but what do you use to create the tar? Example Winrar?
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14:00<@planetmaker>make bundle_tar :)
14:00<DigitalFox>ok
14:01<@planetmaker>I don't use windows when I can avoid it.
14:01<@planetmaker>thus the build system works fine on osx and linux
14:02<DigitalFox>Currently playing with VS optimizations, comparing /Ox with /O2.
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14:03<@planetmaker>you can install that on windows, but it's ... not comfortable. http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=70726 and http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/home/wiki have some guidance
14:03<DigitalFox>I wonder if I'll notice any difference in CPU usage. :\ Going to run 2 instances side by side.
14:03<DigitalFox>Thanks planetmaker :)
14:04<@planetmaker>it will double your cpu usage
14:04<DigitalFox>lol :)
14:04<@planetmaker>I actually wonder how you managed to build it on windows at all :)
14:05<DigitalFox>OpenTTD?
14:05<@planetmaker>no, opengfx+industries. Didn't you talk about that?
14:05<DigitalFox>oh, yeah.
14:06<DigitalFox>Why do you think that?
14:06<@planetmaker>how did you build the grf?
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14:06<@planetmaker>honest question
14:07<DigitalFox>I actually did some search for a shop sprite that would replace the one included for one 32bpp, but didn't find anything on coop that made sense.
14:08<DigitalFox>the command?
14:08<@planetmaker>yes... which source did you use and how did you make a grf from it?
14:08<DigitalFox>nmlc -c --grf OpenGFX+.grf ogfx-industries.nml
14:08<@planetmaker>and how did you get the nml?
14:09<@planetmaker>oh, please, don't call it OpenGFX+.grf. That's a whole series of OpenGFX+ grfs
14:09<DigitalFox>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/nml/push/v5284-351/
14:09<@planetmaker>make clear what it contains (industries)
14:09<@planetmaker>oh, you used the pre-processed nml, not the real source
14:09<DigitalFox>Oh i've renamed but I was using spaces so...
14:10<DigitalFox>Is that bad ? :\
14:10<@planetmaker>not necessarily
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14:13<@planetmaker>the source is imho easier to browse and modify than the one big-blob pre-processed file created from it :)
14:14<@planetmaker>but whatever suits you is fine
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14:14<DigitalFox>Yep :)
14:15<@planetmaker>after all, we provide the pre-processed nml file mostly for cases like these, where people don't want or can't use the build system to build it
14:16<DigitalFox>It does make learning how everything works a bit more complex, since many files are only used by the coop build system. But it's fun :)
14:18<@planetmaker>well, the code is structures similarily to openttd. you built it from something where all cpp files are concatenated to one big file
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14:22<DigitalFox>I feel really bad for being a 0 on drawing graphics, I would love to build 32bpp GRF's :( \My first GRF would be adapting ogfx-biggui to 32bpp
14:22<DigitalFox>Can't live without in my 1080p screen
14:22<DigitalFox>*it
14:26<DigitalFox>If someone want's to draw 32bpp graphics for Open, what app is recommended?
14:26<juzza1>Blender
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14:26<DigitalFox>Any special output? Just regular png's?
14:26<frosch123>V uses 3ds
14:27<juzza1>Inkscape for UI
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>why does it even matter?
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14:27<DigitalFox>Eddi|zuHause: Well because I think I'm going to give it a shot
14:28<juzza1>rgba pngs are fine
14:29<DigitalFox>ok thank you
14:33<@planetmaker>well, the 32bpp sprites mostly aren't drawn. They're all rendered really. Except GUI
14:33<@planetmaker>(and blender or 3ds are rendering programmes)
14:35<DigitalFox>So what you are saying is that the GUI is probably the most easy part since it's like a static image and rest is modeled, for example a train ?
14:36<DigitalFox>I'm looking at https://wiki.openttd.org/32bit_Graphics_Development_Documentation seems I have a lot to read
14:36<@planetmaker>trains are also static images :)
14:37<@planetmaker>But that's how people usually do it, yes
14:37<@planetmaker>uh... I would assume those parts of the openttd wiki are.... VERY old
14:37<@planetmaker>pre-dating the support for 32bpp newgrfs
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14:38<@planetmaker>so yes, you can start there sure, especially for graphics, but beware the grain of salt out there
14:38<DigitalFox>Yes but give me a graphics newbie some insight :)
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14:39<@planetmaker>the only 32bpp work I created was done in gimp :)
14:40<DigitalFox>No promises, but a complete 32bpp GUI is something I really want to have and since there are none available, I'll see what I can do and if anything atleast usable I'll share on the forum.
14:40<DigitalFox>What did you do?
14:40<@planetmaker>doesn't zbase have a 32bpp UI?
14:40<@planetmaker>pota-ghat landscape
14:40<DigitalFox>not finished
14:41<@planetmaker>what about providing sprites for the missing UI elements? Honestly, I'd like them all in normal zoom (and not as big gui) in zBase
14:41<@planetmaker>opengfx+biggui is for zoom UI
14:42<Taede>what you really want is a gui-grf with a parameter for icon size (standard, 1.5x, 2x, 4x)
14:42<DigitalFox>Well atleast on my Screen the ideal is 1.5X
14:43<juzza1>you could attempt finishing http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/jjgui
14:43<DigitalFox>Taede: That's why I say I use ogfx-biggui
14:43<DigitalFox>juzza1: That's way over my head :)
14:44<@planetmaker>well, whatever, I'd like to see zbase without those missing sprites. If you would provide those, that'll be a real advantage
14:44<@planetmaker>and if it's in 1x zoom - even better :D
14:44<DigitalFox>:)
14:50<DigitalFox>Thanks guys,
14:50<DigitalFox>Got to go, bye.
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15:46<andythenorth>lawks
15:47<@Rubidium>yes m'lord
15:58*andythenorth is bored
15:58<andythenorth>I could try and debug grfcodec
16:02<mist>is it possible to play openttd multiplaer coop?
16:02<Zuu>mist: Yes, just join #openttdcoop
16:03*andythenorth plays openttd
16:03<FLHerne>mist: Or any other server where someone is willing to let you join there server
16:03<FLHerne>s/server/company/
16:04<FLHerne>s/there/their/;s/other company/other server/
16:04*FLHerne can't get things right today
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>you even messed up your s-es
16:22<FLHerne>Hmm? I know I messed up the first one, hence trying to undo that with the second
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>then at least the first one should also have a "g"
16:25<FLHerne>Ah, yes. I wasn't planning on multiple substitutions, forgot I had a correct instance of 'server' too :-/
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>your last one undoes the first one, without actually changing the one you intended to change
16:26<FLHerne>So 's/their server/their company/', and I'll finally have typed what I wanted to type 24 minutes ago :P
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16:26<FLHerne>If IRC even did substitutions, of course
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>you could instead have just written a corrected version, with much less confusion for the reader :p
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>why easy if you can do complicated :p
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16:40<FJB-Guy>can somebody please see why I get this error? http://imgur.com/2oeCgRV
16:41<frosch123>@kban 84000 FJB-Guy
16:41<@DorpsGek>frosch123: Error: 84000 is not in #openttd.
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16:41<frosch123>@kban FJB-Guy 84000
16:41-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!~FJB@0001ad56.user.oftc.net] by DorpsGek
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16:41<frosch123>that way
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17:06<andythenorth>bye
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17:39<mist>i just thought openttd was always "versus" mode in multiplayer
17:39<mist>but this is great news, now i can play together with the gf instead of against her
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17:52<Eddi|zuHause>no matter how long you play this game, you always see people that play the game in ways you never imagined
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18:41<Wolf01>'night all
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---Logclosed Mon Jun 23 00:00:16 2014