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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-06-24

---Logopened Tue Jun 24 00:00:19 2014
00:56-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD48DF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit []
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03:10<@planetmaker>moin
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03:11<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, seems you're right. "We" now shoot missles into children's bedrooms.
03:11<@planetmaker>*missiles
03:14<Supercheese>O_o
03:18<@planetmaker>http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Forschungsrakete-auf-Abwegen-Der-grosse-Knall-im-Kinderzimmer-2237051.html for those who can read German
03:19<@planetmaker>in short: a rocket of the local experimental space rocket club went terribly wrong and impacted into a house
03:19-!-TheMask96 [martijn@envy.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:20<@planetmaker>no-one was injured, though
03:23<V453000>I dont think that is the correct way to create planets pm
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03:24<@planetmaker>debatable
03:24-!-Kazune [~kazune@staticline-31-182-2-2.toya.net.pl] has joined #openttd
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03:25<V453000>k :S
03:25<V453000>:D
03:27<Supercheese>What has (rocket) science done?
03:34<V453000>all of science is probably guilty anyway
03:50-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1B37F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
03:52<@planetmaker>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Physicists
03:55<Supercheese>Valete, amici
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03:56<@planetmaker>valete
03:56<V453000>anus
04:03<@Rubidium>planetmaker: wasn't your countries first rocket "club" mostly aiming at houses?
04:04<@planetmaker>no. The first rocket clubs wanted to go to space
04:04<peter1139>Houses, via space.
04:05<@planetmaker>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Oberth
04:06<@planetmaker>but of course, as usual, anything which can be used as a weapon will be used as a weapon ultimately
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04:12<@planetmaker>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verein_f%C3%BCr_Raumschiffahrt migt be the better reference thereof
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04:31<V453000>clay pit? :D https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/YETI/1-B-x4.png
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04:33<V453000>hm :)
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04:44<LordAro>such netsplit
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05:00<LSky`>yay.
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05:09<LordAro>super stable oftc is super stable
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06:36<NGC982_>Morning.
06:40<Xaroth|Work><insert current-time-based greeting here>
06:41<V453000><insert opposite time-based-greeting here>
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06:49<LordAro><flibble>
06:50<Absolutis><3
06:50<V453000>E>
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07:27<NGC982_>You guys suck.
07:33<Xaroth|Work>Somehow I don't really care :P
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08:12<NGC982_>Is there any way to improve latency whilst on a slow wireless connection?
08:12-!-NGC982_ is now known as NGC3982
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>get a wired connection
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>also, reducing the bandwidth may help
08:23<NGC3982>I tried that. It seems like it's simply way to slow.
08:25<Rubidium>slow wireless as in mobile phone?
08:26<Rubidium>that includes things like wireless in trains, busses and ships
08:26<peter1139>Slow wireless as in satellite?
08:26<Rubidium>satphone is a mobile phone as well, so falls somewhat in the same category
08:27<Rubidium>although satphone latency is mostly due to there being many nanoseconds between the ground and the satphone and back
08:27<peter1139>Yeah, not really, different tech.
08:27<Rubidium>for 'normal' mobile phones a lot of the latency is caused by the transmission and collision avoidance algorithms
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08:47<@planetmaker>we had this morning a video call which actually went over satellite. It's funny to actually see that lag (again)
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>probably depends on whether it's a geostationary satellite or a "normal" satellite
08:50<@planetmaker>that I dunno. But I know that no other communication means that satellite were possible
08:50<@planetmaker>700 km off-shore in the Pacific has no cables or mobile transmitters
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>that mobile coverage in the ocean is a bitch
08:51<@planetmaker>yeah, quite
08:51<NGC3982>Rubidium: No, just bad wireless connection to my home router.
08:51<NGC3982>b/g/n.
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: wireless latency comes mostly from collisions/mangled packages needing to be resent. if over the same radio bandwidth you send less data, more space can be used for error correction, avoiding resending packages. but that may run deeper into the protocols than the average home router would usually allow
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>and i'm certainly no expert
08:54<NGC3982>I see
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09:16<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: switching channels may help, as they might be differently affected by interference
09:17<NGC3982>I have dynamic switching via ddwrt on my e3000
09:17<NGC3982>And it actually works pretty well
09:18<NGC3982>Although, i have found the problem
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>no idea what that means
09:18<NGC3982>It scans and changes automaticly if there are other networks nearby on the same channels.
09:18<NGC3982>The router is badly mounted, though
09:19<NGC3982>I need to read up on how linksys radios should be pointed correctly
09:19<Pinkbeast>So once you get n of them in the same area they channel-surf constantly?
09:20<NGC3982>I guess it has some kind of flood limit
09:20<NGC3982>It usually changes once every two weeks or something
09:36<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, be my guest to split the grfid thing from action8. Actually that was my thought, too. Just lazy
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09:54<Eddi|zuHause>what makes you assume that i am less lazy than you? :p
09:55<@planetmaker>nothing. But it's worth a try. And *you* complained. Thus you're entitled to go by your suggestion and fix it
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09:55<V453000>haha!
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think "entitled" is the right word :p
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09:56<@planetmaker>oh, it is :P. But you can also replace it by obliged, if you prefer
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10:27<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: a danger of splitting the GRF ID ranges off is that (much) fewer people see them; I won't notice a small link instead of a heading saying "Used ranges" or "Reserved ranges" or something like that
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: that's a matter of presenting the link?
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11:09<frosch123>V453000: isn't there supposed to be water in a clay pit?
11:09<V453000>thought so
11:10<V453000>but is there? :D
11:10<frosch123>or at least yeti excrements
11:19<@planetmaker>eeew
11:20<@planetmaker>hi though :P
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11:36<frosch123>he, at least the planeset topic is funny :)
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12:14<@Alberth>hmm, steelmill and farm in the middle of tokyo :p
12:15<@planetmaker>:)
12:15<Diablo-D3>sounds about right
12:16<@planetmaker>I like your sense for detail wrt yeti industries, Alberth :) +1
12:17<Diablo-D3>what are we disgussing?
12:18<@Alberth>yeti industries, and tokyo, I think
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>we're not disgusting
12:18*Alberth thinks Diablo-D3 means "discussing"
12:19<Diablo-D3>I am neither dissing nor cussing.
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>"disguessing" makes not a lot of sense
12:19<@Alberth>in that case, I don't understand your question
12:20<Diablo-D3>Alberth: =|
12:20<Diablo-D3>So what are we dicussing?
12:20<@planetmaker><Alberth> yeti industries, and tokyo, I think
12:21<Diablo-D3>Yeah, I dont understand the reference
12:22<@Alberth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1124424#p1124424
12:22<@Alberth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1124370#p1124370
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12:26<Diablo-D3>I like that pit
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12:27<Diablo-D3>btw, you know the train station grfs that add tiles that just react to waiting cargo?
12:28<Diablo-D3>it'd be interesting if a grf could make those randomly appear on grass tiles
12:28<@Alberth>you can make station tiles that look like grass
12:29<@Alberth>but grass tiles are not part of the station, so they cannot access station information
12:29<@planetmaker>a station grf could use grass as its ground sprite, so it's possible. Not sure any which shows cargo does so, though
12:30<@planetmaker>ISR and japanese stations have stations which show cargo nicely, though. And chips as well
12:30<Diablo-D3>Alberth: yeah, it'd have to be a change in openttd I think
12:30<@planetmaker>no
12:30<@planetmaker>just write a newgrf ;)
12:30<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: I'd want it to be done automatically
12:30<Diablo-D3>ie, I dont have to place the tiles myself
12:31<@planetmaker>sounds fun. tiles converting to become a station automatically
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12:31<Diablo-D3>well, it wouldnt become part of the station
12:31<@planetmaker>whether yours or your competitors - who knows
12:31<@Alberth>a similar idea exists with industries
12:31<@planetmaker>or maybe the other station of yours?
12:31<Diablo-D3>it would just be a visual effect to show cargo piling up
12:31<@Alberth>where they grow as they become larger
12:31<Diablo-D3>Alberth: oh that'd be really neat
12:32<@Alberth>ECS does it to some extent
12:32<@Alberth>it has grassy tiles that get used as the production goes up, afaik
12:32<Diablo-D3>well, it'd be neat if an industry can grow like buildings do in cities
12:32<Diablo-D3>like, little house eventually become giant skyscrapers
12:33<@planetmaker>unfortunately that's not alike at all
12:33<@planetmaker>at least not if it comes to growing in size wrt to tile coverage. Changing the looks - rather easy
12:34<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: it'd require both
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12:34<Diablo-D3>for a coherent look anyways
12:34<@Alberth>houses also don't grow in number of tiles
12:34<Diablo-D3>yeah, they dont
12:34<Diablo-D3>I wish they could though
12:34<@Alberth>you could start with a number of small buildings as industry, and gradually make it one big building
12:35<Diablo-D3>it'd be neat if forests could grow
12:35<@Alberth>they do :p
12:35<Diablo-D3>what, they keep eating more nearby tiles?
12:35<Diablo-D3>Ive never seen that happen
12:36<@Alberth>no, in growing stages
12:36<Diablo-D3>Im talking about a forestry industry spot
12:36<Diablo-D3>not trees
12:36<Diablo-D3>its always the same 4x4? block
12:37<@Alberth>industries can pretty much have any size, probably upto some limit
12:37<@Alberth>see eg FIRS
12:37<Diablo-D3>well, whats the most impressive industry replacement now?
12:37<@planetmaker>IIRC the limit is around 15x15 or so
12:37<Diablo-D3>woah, 15x15 would be awesome
12:38<@Alberth>depends on what you mean with "impressive"
12:38<@Alberth>I prefer the default-ish industries, tbh
12:38<Diablo-D3>well, I want stuff thats bigger in the game
12:38<Diablo-D3>tiny industries just feel wrong to me
12:39<@Alberth>scales are all wrong in openttd
12:39<Diablo-D3>yeah
12:40<@Alberth>don't try to fix it, it won't work
12:40<Diablo-D3>like, a steel mill should be three times the size it is
12:40<Diablo-D3>it should be a whole complex of buildings
12:40<@Alberth>these sizes are all designed for good game play
12:40<Diablo-D3>well, good game play at small map sizes
12:41<@Alberth>nobody requires you to play at a bigger size
12:43<@planetmaker>hm, the default steel mill has quite a complex of buildings. Several furnances, some other storage buildings...
12:44<@planetmaker>and it takes up as much space as makes up for a significant portion of a small town
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12:44<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: yeah, but it looks like one monolithic part
12:44<Diablo-D3>like I could pick it up and set it somewhere else in my model railroad
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>just watch an industry under construction
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>to see its parts
12:54<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, thats always interesting
12:54<Diablo-D3>but like, FIRS has industries that have grass tiles in between the parts
12:55<Diablo-D3>the steel mill Im visualizing in my head would be like, have overhead pipes or conveyers or something that rail or veh could pass under
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>well, make it...
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13:01<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: not an artist
13:01<@Alberth>nobody is at first
13:02<@Alberth>see it as a challenge
13:02<Diablo-D3>Ive tried being an artist before, Im noit one.
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>you can make a framework and then wait for artists to fill in the blanks
13:03<@planetmaker>code it with like block graphics. And hope someone draws it actually to look like something. Like CETS :)
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>pixeltool probably helps with blocks
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>that remotely resemble the shape that you intended
13:05<Diablo-D3>yeah, unfortunately I dont really have spare time for that
13:05<Diablo-D3>my company doesnt run itself =/
13:06<V453000>pay somebody to draw your ideas then :D
13:06<Diablo-D3>dont have spare money for that =P
13:06<V453000>in that case your idea will probably stay in your head only :P
13:07<Diablo-D3>yeah, thats why I usually quit playing openttd
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>question: why is it called "minecraft" when i spent most of the time farming and breeding animals?
13:07<Diablo-D3>so much stuff it could do to attract more players, and it just doesnt.
13:08<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: why is minecraft popular =/
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>because it's retro-nerd-y
13:08<Diablo-D3>but its not
13:08<Diablo-D3>it doesnt look retro at all
13:09<Diablo-D3>it looks like a bunch of cubes with crappy textures on them rendered with a rather broken rendering pipeline
13:09<@Alberth>aka "retro" :p
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes. and the challenge is to make recognizable entities with limited pixels
13:10<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: I dont get it then
13:10<Diablo-D3>its like playing with lego, but you only get 2x2 blocks.
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>exactly
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>it goes against the trend for ultra-realism that commercial games do
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>everyone can add more pixels. that doesn't mean it gets more creative
13:11<V453000>Alberth: I even added 2 ladders for climbing! :D
13:12<@Alberth>yetis will love you!
13:12<V453000>the spiral was meant to rotateand pull things up, will see how that goes
13:12<V453000>Alberth: the ladders are in the picture already, they are on the square constructions atm, yo probably missed them :P
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: like an artesian well?
13:12<V453000>wtf is artesian well
13:12<Diablo-D3>its a well that flows on its own
13:13<V453000>:d
13:13<Diablo-D3>underground pressure is high enough that unless you cap it, it floods until the underground water runs out
13:13<V453000>right
13:13<Diablo-D3>is yeti playable yet?
13:13-!-bdavenport [~davenport@aeolus.mindlesstux.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:14<V453000>no but soon will be
13:14<@Alberth>spiral is normally not vertical, so you can use gravity to keep the stuff you're transporting at the bottom. A vertical spiral won't work on that principle.
13:14<@Alberth>but it may not be a problem :)
13:14<V453000>Alberth: it rotates in the other direction
13:14<V453000>so the stuff just lies on it and is transported up
13:14<V453000>clay is sticky! :D
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, a spiral for moving up stuff can't be vertical
13:14<V453000>pfffgufjt
13:14<V453000>:D
13:14<V453000>hm
13:15<V453000>it stays for now :D
13:15<@planetmaker>true, though :)
13:15<V453000>might make a lift later
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13:15<@planetmaker>best efficiency at angle of repose :)
13:15<@Alberth>V, sorry for being such a techy :)
13:15<V453000>its good :)
13:16<Diablo-D3>so if I wanted to do single player right now
13:16<Diablo-D3>whats the best industry replacement
13:16<V453000>original, opengfx+, firs
13:16<V453000>in that order
13:17<V453000>basic temperate economy in firs is considerably better than the rest of firs but still
13:17<juzza1>define best
13:17<Diablo-D3>what about ECS?
13:18<V453000>ECS has many annoying features which basically break it
13:18<V453000>not to mention that even setting it up right takes like an hour
13:39-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc10-aztw26-2-0-cust867.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd
13:39<andythenorth>openttd could phone home with every grfid it sees
13:39<andythenorth>or maybe it’s like SSL certs, you have to apply for one
13:39<andythenorth>and prove who you are
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>like that worked out well...
13:40<andythenorth>yeah brilliantly
13:40<andythenorth>and not a way for cert issuers to make money on bad service
13:45<Rubidium>we just need a RIPE_NCC and such that handle the distribution of ranges of IDs
13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26663 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2014-06-24 17:46:04 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>japanese - 31 changes by guppy
13:46<@DorpsGek>lithuanian - 1 changes by Stabilitronas
13:46<@DorpsGek>norwegian_nynorsk - 19 changes by 2rB
13:48-!-Aristide [~quassel@81.253.44.3] has joined #openttd
13:51<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause gets the “voice of reason” prize today
13:51-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
13:51<Wolf01>hello o/
13:53<@Alberth>moin
14:10<andythenorth>also, maybe I am stupid, why do grfs need more than one grfid?
14:10<@Alberth>spare ones!
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>apparently, because nobody implemented action14 for ttdpatch
14:11<@Alberth>planet maker said yesterday that a different grfid was used when you break backwards compatibility
14:11<@planetmaker>what?
14:11<Diablo-D3>er?
14:11<andythenorth>not any more
14:11<Diablo-D3>grfs dont have a version field?
14:11<@planetmaker>Alberth, once upon a time, yes.
14:11<andythenorth>they do in a modern version of *TTD
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>Diablo-D3: they do, in the action14
14:12<@Alberth>planetmaker: I said "was" :)
14:12<andythenorth>archaic versions that aren’t developed don’t support action 14
14:12<@planetmaker>Alberth, nowadays, all you need is one single ID for a NewGRF throughout its entire life - however incompatible subsequent versions are, it doesn't matter anymore
14:12<andythenorth>of course, being a good open source project, we support dinosaur-age systems
14:13<@planetmaker>let's announce to break compatibility with 1.6
14:13*Alberth would be a bad open source dev then
14:13<@planetmaker>and require action14 and at least grf v7
14:13<@planetmaker>or better grf v8
14:13<@Alberth>grf v9 :p
14:13<@planetmaker>:P
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>grf16
14:14<@Alberth>just drop grf action 8?
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: what's that supposed to solve?
14:15<andythenorth>I’m still unclear what the actual problem is :) Maybe I’m thick
14:15<@Alberth>action 8 is clearly not working, is it? :)
14:15<andythenorth>I used some ranges OzTrans would like, I offered to change
14:15<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: that allows to replace the linear grfid/version schema with a distributed one
14:16<frosch123>each newgrf lists the md5sums of the grfs, it is an update for
14:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the problem is, that was never the actual problem. only a symptom
14:16<frosch123>allows easy forking without the need to switch grfids and still keeping compatible
14:16<andythenorth>ok, so what’s the actual problem? o_O
14:16<andythenorth>the problem is uniquely identifying grfs?
14:16<andythenorth>so you can disable your grf against them?
14:16<andythenorth>or what?
14:17<@planetmaker>damn, I like that idea, frosch123
14:17<frosch123>andythenorth: there is no problem
14:17<frosch123>just drink some tea
14:17<andythenorth>I am back on coffee
14:17<andythenorth>strong coffee
14:17<Rubidium>I think the md5sum idea won't work for development versions, especially with NMLs
14:17<andythenorth>life is better that way
14:17<frosch123>planetmaker: get's lenghty though, unless you have access to the intermediate grfs
14:17<Diablo-D3>so hrm
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: and how do you add the ID of the previous version to your grf automatically on editing?
14:18<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: your code generator does it?
14:18<frosch123>bananas adds it on upload
14:18<frosch123>:p
14:18<andythenorth>presumably by reserving CA, OzTrans can read the first byte or whatever, and doesn’t have to track all his grfids?
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: and then how do you publish non-bananas alpha versions?
14:18<frosch123>i just define non-bananas as non-published
14:19<andythenorth>published = distributed
14:19<andythenorth>if you don’t distribute, you don’t get uid
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>... and there your idea falls into pieces
14:19<@planetmaker>frosch123, yes, it does, I know. Hard to automatically create the list of needed md5sums... hm
14:19<Diablo-D3>2cc + egrvts + av8 + fish
14:19<frosch123>planetmaker: plus ofc, the issue with md5sum on the result of a compiler not being the right thing, as rb pointed out :p
14:19<andythenorth>I am still unclear what the actual root problem is, but there must be one, right?
14:19<andythenorth>otherwise there’s nothing to discuss
14:20*andythenorth -> coffee
14:20<Diablo-D3>+ firs + ttrs3
14:20<Diablo-D3>would that make for a decent game?
14:21<@planetmaker>for some definitions of 'decent', probably. Not sure how well 2ccts deals with FIRS, but should do well
14:21<frosch123>ttrs generally does not make for a decent game :p
14:21<andythenorth>Diablo-D3: try AV9 instead
14:21<andythenorth>it’s better
14:21<andythenorth>fewer planes
14:21<@Alberth>Diablo-D3: nuts, 256x1024, default industries, sub-tropical
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the root problem is people having different opinions on what "reserving" an ID for future use means, and how strictly "conventions" should be followed
14:21<frosch123>andythenorth: try planeset, it has no aircraft ranges :p
14:21<Diablo-D3>Alberth: I never cared for nuts
14:21<andythenorth>well it’s a convention that grfs are uploaded to bananas
14:21<frosch123>(my favorite quote from today)
14:21<@Alberth>Diablo-D3: default trainset works too
14:22<Diablo-D3>whats wrong with 2cc then?
14:22<andythenorth>it’s a convention that grfs don’t disable themselves just because the author doesn’t like engine pool
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and when these opinions collide, neither side trying to go a step towards the other
14:22<@Alberth>Diablo-D3: never used it, but from the forum topic, I'd say toooooo many trains
14:22<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, the most interesting thing is that the people who whine loudest follow the "rules" just as badly as most. With the notable exceptions of Pikka and mb who actually use only "their range" and that's it.
14:22<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: in the case where there’s a camp (me) whose opinion is “don’t really care” surely I have to get out the way?
14:22<Diablo-D3>Alberth: yeah it has an absolute crapload
14:22-!-Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
14:23<Diablo-D3>Alberth: you use it when you're making art with openttd instead of playing it
14:23<@Alberth>Diablo-D3: ok, I like to play, and build tracks, and connect industries
14:23<@planetmaker>All other users fall in the category "use random IDs" or "only wrote one NewGRF"
14:23<@Alberth>I think I actually made 2 newgrfs :p
14:23<Diablo-D3>actually, whats the most interesting town replaement?
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>swedish houses
14:24<@planetmaker>swedish is nice
14:24<andythenorth>lighting is wrong :(
14:24*andythenorth is sad
14:24<@planetmaker>:-(
14:24<Rubidium>probably andy's future MITR ;)
14:24<andythenorth>I draw the line at houses
14:24<andythenorth>I’m done there
14:24<andythenorth>I am thinking of Iron Pipe though
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>it's the only GRF so far that doesn't spam your towns with skyscrapers
14:25<andythenorth>pikka’s town thing
14:25<andythenorth>try that
14:25<andythenorth>TAI
14:25<@planetmaker>TAI is broken imho. Creates too many non-houses
14:25<Diablo-D3>yeah if I cant have skyscrapers that take up 4 blocks
14:25<andythenorth>Diablo-D3: if you use FIRS, pick a basic economy
14:25<Diablo-D3>then I'd rather have no skyscrapers at all
14:26<@planetmaker>thus I have towns surrounded by labyrinths of roads w/o houses between them
14:27<frosch123>http://www.epochconverter.com/epoch/unix-hex-timestamp.php <- planetmaker: i found a grfid generator :p
14:27<andythenorth>timestamps
14:27<Diablo-D3>wait holy crap
14:27<Diablo-D3>av9 exists?
14:27<andythenorth>frosch123 does troll
14:27<Diablo-D3>I thought that was just a joke
14:28<andythenorth>AV9 is real
14:28*Alberth considered using the topic number of tt-f :p
14:28<andythenorth>much better
14:28<frosch123>also nice :p
14:28<Absolutis>but how do you prevent 2 people making grf at the same time? checkmate atheists
14:28<@Alberth>you don't
14:28<Diablo-D3>heqs or egrvts?
14:28<frosch123>Absolutis: we just shoot one
14:28<frosch123>too many of them are annoying
14:29<@Alberth>yeah, 5 grfs is sufficient
14:29<andythenorth>Diablo-D3: both
14:30<Diablo-D3>why both?
14:31<andythenorth>no buses in HEQS
14:31<andythenorth>no normal trucks either
14:31<Diablo-D3>yeah but does heqs add anything useful?
14:32<andythenorth>no
14:32<andythenorth>:)
14:32<@planetmaker>HEQS basically cannot replace any other NewGRF. But can add nice special vehicles. Whether you find them useful... probably not. I like them
14:32<Diablo-D3>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/heqs
14:32<Diablo-D3>thats what Im basing my opinion on
14:33<Diablo-D3>252t vehicles might be interesting
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14:34<Diablo-D3>okay so I have egrvts, firs, heqs, swedish houses, and the swedish town name generator
14:34<Diablo-D3>are there any grfs that actually do ships right?
14:34<@planetmaker>FISH does
14:34<Diablo-D3>I thought fish was still rather low capacity
14:35<andythenorth>yes
14:35<andythenorth>it does it right
14:35<andythenorth>there was a fork of FISH 2 that was going to make the capacity higher
14:35<andythenorth>not sure if it got finished
14:35<@planetmaker>oh, redfish?
14:35<andythenorth>maybe
14:36<Diablo-D3>redfish?
14:36<Diablo-D3>heh
14:36<Diablo-D3>I saw that in the list
14:36<andythenorth>FISH 2 tops out around 1080t or so
14:36<andythenorth>FISH 2 is much better than FISH
14:36<Diablo-D3>theres very large ships, and that seems to do it right
14:36<Diablo-D3>but now its so right I need bigger industries to match
14:36<andythenorth>which is why it’s wrong
14:36<andythenorth>very large ships add nothing to your game
14:36<andythenorth>I’ve tried it
14:36<Diablo-D3>yeah =/
14:36<Diablo-D3>I'd like physically huge ass ships though
14:37<andythenorth>they don’t work
14:37<Diablo-D3>so should I do fish2 or redfish?
14:37*planetmaker thinks Diablo-D3 just needs everything bigger. Maybe he should try to play at 4x zoom exclusively :P
14:37<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: yeah but then I'd need smaller trains
14:38<frosch123>there are narrow gauge sets
14:38<andythenorth>10cc
14:39<andythenorth>or whatever pikka called it
14:39<Diablo-D3>is there a good rail and station replacement thats worth using?
14:39<Diablo-D3>since Im doing swedish houses, Ill be doing this in the snow
14:39<andythenorth>I like canadian stations
14:39<andythenorth>it’s the most complete passenger station set imho
14:40<Diablo-D3>canadian stations isnt on bananas yet
14:40<frosch123>Diablo-D3: "swedish rails" obviously
14:41<Diablo-D3>I know it exists but I dont know if its any good
14:41<andythenorth>canadian stations is great
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't actually change stations?
14:41<frosch123>it's probably the best (realistic) track set
14:41<Diablo-D3>rails doesnt do stations yet
14:41<andythenorth>Diablo-D3: which trainset are you using?
14:41-!-gelignite [~gelignite@i528C31E9.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
14:41<Diablo-D3>andythenorth: I dont know
14:41<Diablo-D3>I was considering 2cc
14:42<Diablo-D3>so far Ive replaced veh, houses, ships
14:43<Diablo-D3>is chips still the favorite non-pax station grf?
14:43<andythenorth>ISR is the favourite
14:43<andythenorth>I like CHIPS obviously :)
14:43<@Alberth>me too :)
14:43<andythenorth>ISR got too big for my simple brain
14:43<@Alberth>I don't care for buildings
14:43<Diablo-D3>ISR turned into an art grf
14:44<Diablo-D3>too many non-station tiles to art it up
14:44-!-Aristide [~quassel@81.253.44.3] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:44<andythenorth>partly my fault
14:44<andythenorth>I kept drawing more
14:44<andythenorth>mart3p had to reject about 1/3 of my ideas :P
14:44<Diablo-D3>so if I want to play and not art, chips?
14:44<@Alberth>you wisely decided not to add them to to chips :)
14:45<andythenorth>it’s much easier to reject things when you already drew a lot for another grf :P
14:45<andythenorth>same as FIRS basic is easier than FIRS big
14:45<andythenorth>and Iron Horse doesn’t use a lot of the sprites I drew for UKRS 2 addons :P
14:45<andythenorth>'editing'
14:46<Diablo-D3>so av8 2 or av9.8?
14:46<@Alberth>it takes a few iterations to find the sweet spot
14:46-!-Brumi_ [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has joined #openttd
14:47<Diablo-D3>what is iron horse? I saw it in the list but it has no desc
14:47<andythenorth>it’s unfinished
14:47<andythenorth>it’s playable but has bugs
14:47<Diablo-D3>yeah but what does it do
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>it irons horses
14:48<Diablo-D3>so chips doesnt have a pax station, and canadian stations still isnt on bananas
14:49<V453000>japanese stations are great for passengers
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>for passengers i almost exclusively use MB's newstations
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>... but that's not on bananas either
14:50<Diablo-D3>I wonder if FRISS is any good
14:50<frosch123>that's only art, isn't it :p
14:50<andythenorth>CHIPS uses the default pax station
14:50<andythenorth>or small concrete platforms
14:50<andythenorth>and there are station buildings
14:50<Diablo-D3>ahh friss doesnt have stations yet
14:51<frosch123>i think it is a new object set
14:51-!-Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.digikabel.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:51<Diablo-D3>yeah its that
14:51<Diablo-D3>it does have rail though
14:52<Diablo-D3>so I guess Ill try japanese style stations for pax
14:53<andythenorth>how do people use grfs that aren’t on bananas?
14:53<andythenorth>I don’t even remember how to install a grf
14:54<frosch123>you don't have to if you do not play the game
14:55<andythenorth>I do play the game :P
14:55<andythenorth>currently
14:55<andythenorth>most days
14:55<Diablo-D3>andythenorth: on linux, ~/.openttd/grfs iirc
14:55<Diablo-D3>so which rail replacement and which train replacement goes well with firs and swedish houses?
14:56<V453000>I never use newgrfs out of bananas either
14:56<Diablo-D3>because 2cc and nars2 and ukrs2 are just too godamned bloated
14:56<V453000>no reason to really
14:56<Diablo-D3>and av8 is too goddamned big too
14:56<V453000>nuts nuts? :P
14:57<@planetmaker>swedishrails obviously goes well with swedish houses ;)
14:57<V453000>works great with newgrf industries, every cargo has its own wagon
14:57<V453000>graphics wise
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>CETS :)
14:57<andythenorth>swedish trains?
14:57<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: well thats what Im asking, is swedish rails any good
14:57<Diablo-D3>a lot of these grfs Ive noticed arent really any good
14:58<V453000>swedish rails are great
14:58<V453000>esp in arctic landscape
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>swedish rails != swedish trains
14:59<andythenorth>the only good grf is AV9
14:59<andythenorth>all others are rubbish
14:59<Diablo-D3>okay so swedish houses, rails, town names, heqs and egrvts 2, fish 2, and firs
14:59<Diablo-D3>and chips
14:59<Diablo-D3>so far
14:59<@planetmaker>Diablo-D3, I might have a slightly biased view on the quality of swedishrails ;) (and yes, swedish rails != swedish trains)
15:00<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: yes I know
15:00<Diablo-D3>its just that Im trying to replace everything and see how it goes
15:00<Diablo-D3>Im missing trains and planes at this point I think
15:00<@planetmaker>you know... just *try* and see
15:00<Diablo-D3>oh, and roads
15:00<V453000>NUTS Unrealistic Train Set! =D
15:00*V453000 hides
15:01<@planetmaker>everyone here has an opinion on what's the right answer to your questions. And they will all differ
15:01<andythenorth>AV9 for planes
15:01<Diablo-D3>V453000: nuts is good for competetive play
15:01<Diablo-D3>Im doing single player here
15:01<V453000>how come?
15:02<V453000>why would it be good for competition and not single player? :D what is the difference
15:02<Diablo-D3>Im playing to play
15:02<Diablo-D3>not to get the highest score the fastest
15:02<V453000>well that is exactly what nuts is for? :D
15:02<V453000>score and money is primitive, you dont need to care about that
15:03<V453000>greater deeds like network construction is more interesting (playing to play? :P)
15:03<Diablo-D3>so now Im down to road replacement and train replacement
15:03<Diablo-D3>and pax if I dont use japanese stations
15:04<andythenorth>don’t replace roads
15:05-!-Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
15:05<andythenorth>no point
15:05<V453000>if you use opengfx, American Road Replacement Set looks great
15:07<V453000>I even drew tunnels for it =D
15:07<Diablo-D3>now its just trains and possibly pax stations
15:08<V453000>gave you hint for the former :)
15:09<Diablo-D3>Im not doing nuts
15:10<@Alberth>some people just go nuts when considering nuts :)
15:11<andythenorth>canadian trains
15:11<Diablo-D3>there are no canadian grfs on banana
15:12<andythenorth>go register on simuscape
15:12<andythenorth>or whatever it is you do to get them
15:12<andythenorth>canadian trains is good
15:12<V453000>I think OzTrans left simuscape due to SAC being a bitch
15:12<V453000> /rumor
15:13<andythenorth>unhelpful
15:13<V453000>well combining Tropic Refurbishment Set with NARS was quite popular when I did that Diablo-D3
15:13<V453000>UKRS works too
15:13<V453000>UKRS2 is nice as well
15:19<NGC3982>UKRS2 <3.
15:19<NGC3982>With CHIPS, FISH and FIRS.
15:19<NGC3982>Makes for a good two day play.
15:20<andythenorth>so what shall I change Iron Horse grfid to?
15:20-!-Vadtec [~Vadtec@vadtec.net] has joined #openttd
15:20<andythenorth>also Road Hog
15:20-!-Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:21<@Alberth>AN 0 0 and AN 0 1 ?
15:22<andythenorth>are those ranges free?
15:22<@Alberth>41 4E XX XX A N _ _ FISH ship set <-- you may find some FISH there, according to the specs
15:23-!-Myhorta [~Myhorta@00018fad.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
15:24<andythenorth>I dunno
15:24<andythenorth>FISH is by different authors to Iron Horse or Road Hog
15:25<@planetmaker>frosch earlier had a link to a time2hex converter
15:26<@Alberth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3460/ <-- from the list by RB
15:27<andythenorth>oh
15:27<andythenorth>so BROS stole a FISH ID
15:28<@planetmaker>or one of your F12500 range.
15:28<andythenorth>how many ranges do I have?
15:28<andythenorth>quite a few
15:28<@planetmaker>one per NewGRF
15:28<@planetmaker>:)
15:28<andythenorth>awesome
15:28<andythenorth>maybe I use 4444
15:28<andythenorth>it’s nice
15:28<andythenorth>full of good grfs to have as neighbours
15:32<andythenorth>hmm
15:32<andythenorth>grfcodec
15:33<NGC3982>bajs.
15:34<Diablo-D3>[03:19:11] <NGC3982> UKRS2 <3.
15:34<Diablo-D3>isnt nars by the same guy?
15:34<NGC3982>Yes, both are to my knowlegde Pikka
15:35<NGC3982>But i guess many people are involved in it
15:35<NGC3982>Some idling around here.
15:35<Diablo-D3>yeah
15:35<Diablo-D3>no way one person could do all that
15:35<Diablo-D3>not unless he started like ten years ago
15:36<NGC3982>You would be amazed on how dedicated these people are
15:36*NGC3982 looks at Andy.
15:36<Diablo-D3>heh yeah
15:36<Diablo-D3>opengfx+ has trains, hrm
15:37<Diablo-D3>erm, apparently it doesnt add anything
15:37<NGC3982>No, it does not. It makes the vanilla stuff better.
15:37<@planetmaker>Diablo-D3, you'll be amazed. And surely he *did* start 10 years ago...
15:37<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: hrm maybe he did
15:37*NGC3982 puts a celestar up PM's poopoo.
15:37<Diablo-D3>heh
15:37<@planetmaker>urgs
15:38<Diablo-D3>someone made a pair of gifs that adds sh50 and 60 and millenium z2
15:38<Diablo-D3>that actually is useful for servers
15:38<@planetmaker>totally. Especially as those are default vehicles
15:39<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: er, sh30 and 40 and z1 are
15:39<Diablo-D3>and it adds x2014
15:39<Diablo-D3>I assume it uses the same graphics but ups the specs
15:40<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: look at brianum in bananas
15:42<andythenorth>hrm
15:43<andythenorth>so I need a test case for grfcodec
15:45<andythenorth>frosch123: the plot thickens
15:46<andythenorth>I’ve got it down to a single line that fails
15:46<andythenorth>(single sprite)
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15:47<andythenorth>sprite 111 (line 443) http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3461/
15:47<andythenorth>if I change that to chaplin_0.png, the grf compies
15:47<andythenorth>compiles *
15:48<andythenorth>otherwise
15:48<andythenorth>sprites/graphics/null_trailing_part.png: Error: Sprite y extends beyond end of the spritesheet.
15:48<andythenorth>Spritesheet has 32 lines, sprite wants 10..34
15:48<andythenorth>the successful compile still throws incorrect whitespace warnings, but at least it compiles
15:50<NGC3982>For some reason, when starting a dedicated server using the -c option, the server_advertise is defaultly 'OFF' even though it's on in the selected config.
15:50<NGC3982>Everything else on the server responds to the chosen config file.
15:51<NGC3982>Not the biggest of issues, i guess. :>
15:52<NGC3982>Or wait, it can be. I use the reload_cfg option on my advertised servers. I guess i should make sure server_advertise is set to off when the server restarts automaticly.
15:53<@planetmaker>andythenorth, where does sprite 111 want pixels in lines 10...34? Doesn't it ask for the area between (0,0) and (9,9) (included)?
15:54<andythenorth>exactly
15:54<andythenorth>my grfcodec simply can’t count
15:55<andythenorth>I think it transposes the offsets from one sprite to another
15:55<andythenorth>is my guess
15:55<andythenorth>offsets / crops
15:56<andythenorth>maybe my clang uses a different kind of number :P
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16:02<Diablo-D3>is the 32bit mode stuff worth installing?
16:06<Rubidium>andythenorth: if only it were easy to locally install a test environment for OS X... it's an interesting bug to try to find
16:06<andythenorth>I could send you a mac :P
16:06<@Alberth>Diablo-D3: you make the wrong assumption that there is general consensus over such things :)
16:07*Rubidium was banned from Mac at school
16:07<Rubidium>*Macs
16:07<andythenorth>http://www.macbreaker.com/2014/05/os-x-mavericks-in-virtualbox-with-niresh.html
16:07<Diablo-D3>Alberth: just asking if its ready yet
16:07<andythenorth>my offer stands to send a mac to anyone who actually wants to poke at OS X bugs :P
16:07<andythenorth>we have a stack in the office
16:08<andythenorth>I’m not warrantying they are good :P
16:08<@Alberth>Diablo-D3: name one finished newgrf? :)
16:08<Rubidium>Alberth: may I? ;)
16:09*Alberth believes Rb knows such things :)
16:10<Rubidium>I'd reckon frosch123's "Debug Vehicles" is finished, and "Original vehicle names" is quite likely finished as well
16:10<@planetmaker>snowlinemod is finished, too
16:11<andythenorth>:o
16:11<andythenorth>apparently pipeline trains have drivers
16:11<andythenorth>and guards
16:11<andythenorth>I just killed 4
16:11<@planetmaker>:)
16:11<@planetmaker>those are works who service the pipe
16:11<@planetmaker>poor chaps
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16:12<@planetmaker>saw today the gears for an deep ocean drilling equipment. Impressive... and easy to take one with them, if something goes wrong
16:13<andythenorth>must be like that pipe thing in James Bond
16:14<Rubidium>andythenorth: oh joy...
16:15<Rubidium>a site that forces you wait either 10 minutes or disable ad blocking... and one that requires you to like or tweet about it (don't have either) or wait 10 minutes
16:16<andythenorth>sorry :(
16:16<andythenorth>I just googled :P
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>i can never get enough of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-N2XKqapug
16:17<Rubidium>rickroll?
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>no :)
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16:20<Diablo-D3>dear god
16:20<Diablo-D3>I just tried zbas
16:20<Diablo-D3>zbase
16:21<V453000>shit isnt it :)
16:21<Diablo-D3>yes.
16:21<Diablo-D3>yes it is.
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>even though you're saying the same thing, i don't think you mean the same thing :p
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16:25*Diablo-D3 generates 4096x4096 map
16:26<V453000>fucking christ
16:27<andythenorth>Silicon Valley
16:27<andythenorth>I’ve destroyed half the town for a pipeline :P
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16:28<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: makes you wonder whether you need to perform some sort of check that perform some sort of spelling check on all the crap that's written on the internet
16:28<Diablo-D3>chips doesnt have premade stations?
16:28<Rubidium>hmm... also bad English
16:29<Rubidium>anyhow, some kind of certificate requirement that you can and do perform spelling checks before writing anything on the internet
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i heard of a great thing that may apply here. somebody had an "automatic troll filter". he calculated a troll probability based on which words were used, and by that probability, the CAPTCHA fails even if solved correctly.
16:30-!-Tvel [~Thunderbi@94.156.118.159] has joined #openttd
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>so if someone actually really wants to send this comment about hitler, he may need to solve the captcha 8 times
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16:36<Diablo-D3>holy crap 4096x4096 takes awhile
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>don't try with ECS :p
16:38<Diablo-D3>Im not, using firs
16:38<Diablo-D3>industry generation, 14500 of 20480
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>also, make sure your town name generator has enough names
16:39<Diablo-D3>said 128 names
16:39<toobored`>hehehe. I discovered what Eddi|zuHause just said two days ago
16:40<Diablo-D3>16000 of 2480
16:40<Diablo-D3>it took 2 minutes to get that far.
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>i think i posted Best of YGS 1&2 before
16:43<Diablo-D3>19000 of 20480
16:43<andythenorth>oops
16:43<Diablo-D3>this should be threaded tbh
16:43<andythenorth>use ‘unload and leave empty’ with cdist :P
16:43<andythenorth>I bridged some networks :)
16:43<andythenorth>wood all over the place
16:44<@planetmaker>:)
16:44<Diablo-D3>I dont see the point of cdist outside of pax and mail
16:44<Diablo-D3>20000
16:44<andythenorth>avoids transfer orders
16:45<andythenorth>substitutes them with ‘unload’ orders :P
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>*Supplies
16:45*andythenorth is a recent convert
16:45<@planetmaker>with cargodist they lost most of its use
16:45<Diablo-D3>20200
16:45<Diablo-D3>300
16:45<Diablo-D3>400
16:45<Diablo-D3>1.4 million trees later
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>Diablo-D3: wanna bet the map will be unplayable and you throw it away quickly?
16:46<Diablo-D3>why? what did I forget?
16:47<@planetmaker>that size matters ;)
16:49<toobored`>andythenorth: beware when bridging networks.
16:49<toobored`>balances change superfast
16:50*andythenorth funds £30m of forests
16:50<toobored`>eventually, I just use transfer orders on smaller routes that end up to more central stations to maximize capacity
16:50<andythenorth>it’s a forest revival
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17:06<__ln__>do conductors sell tickets in RE trains?
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17:06<Eddi|zuHause>depends on the region
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>some yes, others no
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>make sure in which kind of region you are before boarding :p
17:07<__ln__>ok, hopefully i won't need to try
17:12<__ln__>anyway, i've been looking at ticket prices from czech to bavaria, and seems that buying a domestic czech ticket, ticket across the border + bayern-ticket is a bit cheaper than an international ticket.
17:13<V453000>you wont get from czech republic alive anyway, dont worry
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know about bayern, but sachsen has some special cross-border ticket
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>it may be something like "Sachsen-Böhmen-Ticket"
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17:16<__ln__>looks like there's bayern-böhmen-ticket
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>these things are usually valid only in regional trains
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if that's what you're looking for
17:17<__ln__>but i'm in the wrong country, and buyin online is not possible without a printer i guess.
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>there may also be special rail tickets for foreigners that are valid for like 30 days in all trains, but have to be bought while outside the country
17:19<fonsinchen>Print it in some internet cafe?
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17:23<__ln__>could be too much work just to save a few euros
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18:32<Wolf01>'night all
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19:16<DanMacK>Hey all
19:17<DanMacK>@seen Andythenorth
19:17<@DorpsGek>DanMacK: Andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 2 hours, 26 minutes, and 52 seconds ago: <andythenorth> it’s a forest revival
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---Logclosed Wed Jun 25 00:00:20 2014