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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-07-03

---Logopened Thu Jul 03 00:00:33 2014
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01:31<DDR>So this is my roommate tonight, preparing for a 'my little pony' convention. http://50.67.217.116/Ben/IMG_0069.JPG
01:46<Flygon>IT LOADS
01:46<Flygon>SIDEWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYS
01:47<Flygon>...
01:48<Flygon>DDR, that costume is incredible
01:48<Flygon>MLP convention tho?
01:48<Flygon>If so, that's awkward timing with AC
01:48<Flygon>Unless it's a different country...
01:48<DDR>He's going as "Brony Stark".
01:49<DDR>Flygon: I have no explanation for the loading of the image. It loaded triangularly for me.
01:49<Flygon>Triangularly?
01:49<DDR>Yeah, torn down the upper-right corner.
01:49<Flygon>lolwut
01:49<DDR>Then it fixed itself. And rotated itself.
01:50<DDR>At least, I think it was that one... there are other shots if you go up to the folder. :p
01:51<Eddi|zuHause>i've neither seen much of ironman nor of ponys to get the joke...
01:52<Flygon>No joke required
01:52<Flygon>That costume is AWESOME
01:52<Eddi|zuHause>and not sure what your problem with the image is...
01:52<Eddi|zuHause>it opened right side up for me...
01:53<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you have a funky image viewer
01:53<Flygon>It loaded correctly for me
01:53<Flygon>But the image loaded slowly
01:54<Flygon>So it instead of loading top>bottom
01:54<Flygon>Or bottom>top like a bitmap
01:54<Flygon>It loaded left>right
01:54<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't get to see that, as my image viewer cached the whole image before displaying
01:54<Flygon>Hmm
01:54<Flygon>Either way
01:54<Flygon>Shower time
01:55<Eddi|zuHause>and that's entirely up to the image encoder to decide which order the pixels are stored in
01:55<V453000>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=179522 (:
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03:48<V453000>anybody knows a program for converting GPS to Cartesian coordinate systems?
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03:50<@planetmaker>ehm... GPS coordinates, like northing and easting?
03:53<V453000>e.g. 50.6891164N, 13.9336400E to cartesian - X,Y like in autocad
03:54<@planetmaker>there's not one way, there is 20 or more ways. It all depends on the map projection you want to use
03:54<V453000>:0
03:54<@planetmaker>i.e. on how you envision the whole earth to look like
03:54<V453000>mhm
03:54<@planetmaker>it's a sphere's surface. You can't put that with some conversion onto a rectangle
03:54<@planetmaker>and there are zillions map projections
03:54<V453000>y
03:54<@planetmaker>those which retain area, those which retain angle, or neither
03:55<@planetmaker>for small areas, just take GPS coordinates as cartesian
03:55<V453000>will try this http://www.pgc.umn.edu/tools/conversion
03:55<@planetmaker>if you want to span more than 10 linear degrees you might consider conversion
03:56<@planetmaker>otherwise just take it as cartesian
03:56<V453000>well it spews out something :D
03:56<V453000>hm :)
03:57<@planetmaker>I'm not sure that that page is actually helpful. But well :)
03:57<@planetmaker>it does not seem to offer the projection you ask(ed) for
03:57<@planetmaker>just conversion from one spherical grid to another
03:57<@planetmaker>except... maybe wsg84
03:59<@planetmaker>I could recommend you to use GMT. But that's like using autocad to draw a rectangle
03:59<@planetmaker>http://gmt.soest.hawaii.edu/
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04:00<@planetmaker>but what do you actually try to do, V453000 ?
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04:04<@planetmaker>the mapproject routine from that set is what you might want
04:04<@planetmaker>http://gmt.soest.hawaii.edu/doc/latest/mapproject.html
04:04*planetmaker likes GMT quite a lot. Light-weight and very powerful
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04:06<V453000>I am trying to get from a web map GPS coordinates, which then I need to put in a 3D software as x,y,
04:06<@peter1138>Is it like UTC?
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04:07<@planetmaker>except for maps, peter1138 :P
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04:12<V453000>I found some old program on our disk for it :D
04:12<V453000>wgs84 -> S-JTSK
04:12<V453000>apparently some czech wtf
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04:30<@planetmaker>@calc 1/25
04:30<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 0.04
04:30<perk11>@calc 999!
04:30<@DorpsGek>perk11: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
04:32<@planetmaker>@calc 9!
04:32<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
04:32<@planetmaker>@calc fac(9)
04:32<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Error: 'fac' is not a defined function.
04:32<@planetmaker>@calc faculty(9)
04:32<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Error: 'faculty' is not a defined function.
04:32<@planetmaker>hm :)
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04:36<LordAro>inferior calculator :p
04:39<@planetmaker>@calc factorial(9)
04:39<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Error: 'factorial' is not a defined function.
04:39<V453000>evil
04:40<@planetmaker>yeah. old python version for supybot, I recon :P webster knows factorial :P
04:41<Xaroth|Work>python's math lib doesn't have factorial by default iirc
04:46<perk11>Xaroth|Work: it does
04:47<perk11>but since 2.6
04:47<perk11>@calc 999**999
04:47<@DorpsGek>perk11: Error: The answer exceeded 1.79769313486e+308 or so.
04:49<LordAro>dem floating point limits
05:20<Xaroth|Work>hm, never knew that
05:34<NGC3982>Poopz.
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06:38<@peter1138>me o'clock
06:41<V453000>ass
06:42<__ln__>V453000: is czech considering the euro?
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06:55<V453000>__ln__: it definitely is a big topic, but how soon is that possible, no idea
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08:28<George>Hi. What should happen, if a GRF changes (decreases!!!) vehicle capacity depending on current date? Should cargo disappear?
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08:30<TinoDidriksen>Why would capacity decrease over time?
08:31<V453000>XD
08:31<V453000>George: it is a feature I have promised not to change over time
08:32<V453000>it will cause desyncs, that is the first thing it will probably do :)
08:32<V453000>other than that I believe the cargo should disappear but who knows
08:33<George>And what should I di with EVS1? In 2013 RZHD modified the head wagons of EVS1 in use so they decreased the capacity.
08:34<@peter1138>capacity... shouldn't ever change.
08:34<@peter1138>certainly not based on date.
08:34<@peter1138>that's a recipe for desyncs.
08:34<George>in RL they did it without passengers in depot, but how to represent in in game?
08:35<V453000>have two models if you want different capacity I guess
08:35<V453000>also, vehicle randomly decreasing capacity is more of a bug than a feature
08:35<V453000>"randomly to a player who does not expect it
08:35<George>They did not change the new ones. They changed ones in operations. The trains that was already build
08:36<@peter1138>i'd suggest skipping that 'feature'
08:36<V453000>sorry George but how does that improve the gameplay of the set
08:36<V453000>I agree with peter1138
08:36<George>It becomes more realistic :D
08:36<V453000>is that helpful?
08:37<George>It depends on what is helpful
08:37<V453000>anything realistic that feasts on functionality is certainly not
08:37<V453000>this would probably devour functionality entirely :D
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>try "date of last service", but this is certainly beyond the line of "realism" vs gameplay than i would go
08:39<George>Eddi|zuHause: that would change the date but not the situation. what's would be the profit if the capacity change happens in depot? Cargo lost is safe there?
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>depots lose cargo all the time, e.g. on selling or autoreplace
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>if it desyncs at this place, you can certainly blame it on openttd
08:41<George>You mean there would be no desync?
08:43<@peter1138>I guess the concept of cached parameters just isn't 'got'
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08:46<Eddi|zuHause>George: i don't see why it would desync. all the relevant callbacks are certainly run on entering the depot, so there is no point in time where loading the savegame would yield different results than if it was already loaded and running
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09:48<Xaroth>MTsPony: yes, I am.
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09:59<Eddi|zuHause><V453000> __ln__: it definitely is a big topic, but how soon is that possible, no idea <-- i thought the czechs are extremely EU and euro sceptical
10:08<V453000>that is also true Eddi
10:08<V453000>yet I think euro is like 40/60
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11:21<NGC3982>Do you guys think YAPF can be extracted and applicated on a real model railway?
11:22<@Alberth>it's just A*, I don't see why it would not work
11:22<@Alberth>assuming you don't have dead ends :p
11:23<NGC3982>What is a "A*"? :)
11:23<@Alberth>A* is the name of the algorithm
11:23<NGC3982>Ah, i see.
11:23<@Alberth>the Internet can tell you all about it :)
11:24*NGC3982 googles for king and country.
11:25<@Alberth>a bigger problem may be that you have people around the model railway that believe it should be realistic, and have time tables and fixed routes and such
11:26<NGC3982>Yes.
11:26<NGC3982>It's not actually for me, but a question that arose in another part of IRC.
11:27<NGC3982>Although, i feel the person asking will have less trouble with setting up correct timetables than applying YAPF safety features.
11:27<@Alberth>you shouldn't handle safety in the routing, I think
11:27<@Alberth>routing gives path on the tracks
11:27<NGC3982>Nothing else?
11:27<@Alberth>signals handle safety
11:28<NGC3982>Oh, i did not know it was a separated thing.
11:28<@Alberth>never used signals in OpenTTD? :)
11:29<NGC3982>Yes, although, i never cared to find out how much of OpenTTD is YAPF.
11:29<@Alberth>or rather, never used a track without signals, yet the train can find its way?
11:30<@Alberth>routing is mostly like car navigation, you get a plan how to get from A to B
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11:30<NGC3982>As visualized with the reserved track function, for instance?
11:31<@Alberth>can be
11:31<@Alberth>or in case of cars, if you print a route, it says "go left, drive for 5 miles, go right, etc"
11:32<@planetmaker><Alberth> you shouldn't handle safety in the routing, I think <-- and you don't want to hear the stories on how safety of routing is actually handled. One of my friends works on certification of station signaling... oh dear!
11:32<NGC3982>:-o
11:32<@planetmaker>scary on what sometimes is possible to signal according to his tales :)
11:32<@Alberth>planetmaker: :)
11:33<@Alberth>just like your average computerised system :)
11:33<@planetmaker>and yes, he gets to review the layouts as suggested by the big players like Siemens & Co
11:33*NGC3982 is soon to be married to an ATC developer.
11:34<NGC3982>She rarely talks about it, but i notice that she does not approve of the Swedish safety systems that are in place.
11:34<NGC3982>Maybe they need YAPF more than me!
11:34<NGC3982>\o/
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11:34<@Alberth>:D
11:35<NGC3982>Sorry, i'm wrong. It's apparently ERTMS nowadays.
11:36<@planetmaker>the problem there is not the train control system. But the possible signaled routes. They simply must avoid collision under all circumstances. Which they often don't ;)
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>sorry to spoil your joke, but YAPF is not a safety mechanism at all
11:36<@planetmaker>i.e. operator failure must not be able to create crossing free-to-pass routes for different trains
11:36<@Alberth>It's a sort of side-effect of working in technology. You spend your days solving problems, every day. At some point you forget that many things actually work quite well, as you focus on problems only
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11:37<@planetmaker>yeah :)
11:37<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: That has been established.
11:39<@Alberth>NGC3982: safety is about timing, ie being at the wrong place at the wrong time. The route is still right though
11:39<@Alberth>You need another mechanism to handle safety, one that actually looks at the local situation, like a driver of a car, or a system that controls signals
11:40<NGC3982>I see.
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: pherhaps you meant to say "PBS"
11:42<@Alberth>They probably use block signals in ATC :)
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>which actually is a safety mechanism, but it's grossly oversimplified
11:42<V453000>do industries behave the original way if I dont set any production thingies?
11:42<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: Simplified is good. Thanks. :)
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: never rely on default values in NFO/NML
11:43<V453000>hm :)
11:43<@planetmaker>V453000, yes. But only the default industries. As you disable them... don't assume defaults
11:44<V453000>that is what I thought pm, thanks
11:49<V453000>mhfff :D any hints on where to start with some basic production?
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>anything not involving the production callback
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12:01<@planetmaker>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Produce
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12:04<@planetmaker>but easier to do with the properties prod_multiplier for primary industries
12:04<@planetmaker> input_multiplier_1/2/3 for secondary
12:06<V453000>understandably :D
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12:14<Eddi|zuHause>what's the git command to delete all local files which are not in the repo?
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>my current way is something like "rm * -r; git reset --hard"
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>which seems weird
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>but maybe it's just git's general weirdness
12:21<@Alberth>your "rm" obviously was not hard enough, as git could recover from it :p
12:22<@Alberth>you could try some git status command, with a fuzzy flag perhaps?
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12:25<Eddi|zuHause>you mean like "if git still works after issuing a command, you did it wrong?" :p
12:27<@Alberth>yep :D
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12:34<@planetmaker>now... that's a long-term project. Seems they re-established communications with a 1978-launched satellite which was lost for years and even managed to start its engines after 27 years of not being used
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12:36<Eddi|zuHause>wasn't that already in the news like two months ago?
12:37<@planetmaker>that's probably when they started to make effort to actually do that, yes. And it's in the news as they had to re-engineer the communication equipment which NASA scrapped 10 years ago :P
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>yes
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12:58*NGC3982 explores the autoclean function for the first time.
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13:22<V453000>im not so sure I am going to be able to code industries :|
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13:34<frosch123>industries are easier than vehicles
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26672 /trunk/src/lang (catalan.txt spanish.txt) (2014-07-03 17:45:28 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan - 1 changes by juanjo
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish - 44 changes by juanjo
13:51<V453000>vehicles at least dont produce anything frosch123 :D
13:52<V453000>life_type: IND_LIFE_TYPE_PROCESSING; should this turn the industry into a "secondary"
13:52<V453000>guess not eh
13:54<frosch123>EXTRACTIVE/ORGANIC are primary industries that change production randomly
13:54<frosch123>PROCESSING are industries that randomly close
13:54<frosch123>BLOCK_HOLE are industries that do nothing random
13:55<frosch123>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Industries#Industry_production_type_.280B.29 <- seems to have slightly more info than nml
13:58<V453000>hm
13:58<V453000>well the thing is that I want all industries to accept and produce something
13:58<V453000>so I thought i could make primaries into processing as well
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13:59<V453000>even further confusing is, that oil well and oil refinery both have exactly the same code minus one producing OIL_ and accepting YETI, and the other accepting OIL_ and producing RFPR ... one has written "accepts OIL_", but the other does not have "accepts YETI"
14:00<V453000>not to mention that the refinery produces something all the time, not influenced by oil delivery :D
14:00<V453000>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3481/
14:00<V453000>I tried to apply the produce thingy but I guess that is not done quite correctly :)
14:01<V453000>.. oil well http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3482/
14:03<V453000>btw if my industry has 16 tiles, does that mean the minimum value to produce is 16, and that the smallest number I can add is 16? Like, that I can only have 16,32,48,64,... production in total?
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14:16<Eddi|zuHause>it probably doesn't work like this
14:16<frosch123>V453000: the life_type does not define when a industry produces something or whether it needs cargo
14:16<frosch123>it defines what the randomness does, and how it can be funded
14:16<V453000>what is it for then?
14:17<V453000>hm
14:17<frosch123>but you can also replace the randomness
14:17<frosch123>so, the main thing it does is how it is funded
14:17<frosch123>but e.g. silicon valley will also check for primary/secondary industries
14:17<V453000>I see
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14:19<V453000>I guess looking at how firs defines production is not a good idea to get less confused? :D
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14:21<Eddi|zuHause>unlikely :p
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not always convinced andy actually knows what he's doing :p
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14:22<Eddi|zuHause>but also, it's using weird production callback things that you probably don't want (initially)
14:23<V453000>mhm
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14:25<V453000>I bet andythenorth wants to code yeti
14:25<andythenorth>hello
14:25<V453000>hihi
14:29<andythenorth>where is cat?
14:29<V453000>?
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>outside my door, demanding food
14:32<frosch123>didn't you have two? you could feed them to eachother
14:34<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26673 /branches/1.4 (5 files in 3 dirs) (2014-07-03 18:34:46 UTC)
14:34<@DorpsGek>[1.4] -Update documentation
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14:36<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r26674 /tags/1.4.2-RC1 (3 files in 3 dirs) (2014-07-03 18:36:30 UTC)
14:36<@DorpsGek>-Release: 1.4.2-RC1
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>they kinda refuse that
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14:39<andythenorth>ho
14:39<andythenorth>I was writing faster newgrf compile
14:39*andythenorth forgot
14:39<andythenorth>Alberth: should I continue? Have I missed any exciting nml things?
14:39<andythenorth>o_O
14:40<@Alberth>just my wild plan to rewrite all expression stuff in nml?
14:40<@Alberth>but it's just plans, currently
14:40<V453000>make industries easy to code in NML :D
14:40<frosch123>andythenorth: write an release news post instead?
14:41<andythenorth>:o
14:41*andythenorth runs away
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14:42<Wolf01>hello o/
14:42<@Alberth>hi hi
14:42<@Alberth>want to write a release news post?
14:43<Wolf01>I'll translate it for my site when it's done :P
14:44<@Alberth>:O an expert :)
14:45<@Alberth>this time you could do it the other way around :)
14:47<Wolf01>I'll write it on my site and you translate it for OTTD?
14:47<frosch123>Wolf01: you could talk about issues with osx and savegames with 5k stations or something
14:48<frosch123>but noone knows why osx suddenly started failing that often
14:49<Wolf01>I suddenly became dyslexic, I read "farted sailing"
14:49<andythenorth>where is changelog?
14:50<frosch123>http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/branches/1.4.hg/file/36dda24e70f8/changelog.txt
14:51*andythenorth considers announcing that underground building is now included
14:51<andythenorth>but it’s hidden, and you have to look for it
14:51<frosch123>the last issue on that list (FS#6012) was reported like 4 times in the past weeks
14:52<andythenorth>can’t you just do what I do for newgrfs and post changelog? o_O
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15:04<V453000>what could cause all the ??? at my stringzors?
15:04<V453000>or ... the ? in cargo amount
15:04<andythenorth>where is code?
15:05<andythenorth>industries are easy :D
15:05<frosch123>did you specify all cargo string parameters?
15:05<frosch123>do they include the required string codes?
15:05<Wolf01>ok, the news post has been written, now release the new RC
15:05<V453000>I have no idea what string codes are required frosch123
15:05<frosch123>Wolf01: http://farm.openttd.org/browse/OTTD-RLS-50 <- your countdown
15:06<frosch123>V453000: compare with firs :)
15:06<V453000>frosch123: firs is unreadable
15:06<frosch123>https://hg.openttdcoop.org/firs/files/c1dc43e1e21c083129e9c77fe51f84d701275f98/lang/english.lng#L32 <- you only need to check the lang file
15:06<V453000>andythenorth: code http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3485/ http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/3484/ english.lng
15:06<frosch123>each cargo has a _NAME, _UNIT, _CID string
15:07<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: It is "git clean -d -x" (maybe without -d and/or -x if you want to keep something) in case you are still wondering.
15:07<frosch123>the _UNIT need the right {bla} in front of them
15:07<V453000>ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh
15:07<V453000>fucking hell :D
15:08<V453000>STR_cargo_3B__type_name: oil STR_cargo_3B__unit_name: {VOLUME} STR_cargo_3B__units_of_cargo: {VOLUME} of oil STR_cargo_3B__items_of_cargo: {VOLUME} of oil STR_cargo_3B__abbreviation: {TINYFONT}OL
15:08<V453000>Y?
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: thanks.
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: i'll probably forget that until the next time i need it :p
15:11<+michi_cc>And that with a command that is even named for exactly what it does ;)
15:11<frosch123>V453000: all your strings have blanks in front
15:11<V453000>XD frosch123 now THIS is what I call EVIL :D https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/yetiborkd_0002.png
15:12<V453000>mhm
15:12<frosch123>put the ":" right in front of the text
15:12<frosch123>maybe you have tabs there or some crap
15:12<frosch123>indeed you have
15:12<frosch123>the "?" is for the "tab"
15:13<V453000>aha yeah
15:13<V453000>there we go
15:13<V453000>:)
15:13<V453000>:)
15:13<V453000>tiny victory but worth celebrating :D
15:15<V453000>why the hell does my oil well accept oil XD
15:15<frosch123>it's a fake oilwell
15:16<V453000>iz real! what do you mean?
15:16<frosch123>they bought an old empty one, then "found" new sources, and sell it expensive again
15:16<V453000>aha
15:16<V453000>:P
15:17<andythenorth>hmm
15:17<andythenorth>FIRS really needs a better way to increase industry production
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15:24<frosch123>@topic set 1 1.4.1, 1.4.2-RC1
15:24-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.4.1, 1.4.2-RC1 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | #openttd.dev for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices
15:24<frosch123>Wolf01: where's your post? :p
15:24<Wolf01>on my site :D
15:25<frosch123>i do not follow you on twitter
15:25<Wolf01>I'm not on twitter, I've a home based webserver
15:26<frosch123>shall i put it into google translator? or should it post the original? :)
15:26<Wolf01>with 20 visitors/week
15:27<Wolf01>the translation is really bad :P
15:28<Wolf01>but if you want to give it a try: http://game-host.no-ip.biz
15:28<frosch123>already found it
15:28<Wolf01>:)
15:35<andythenorth>going to get beaten by SV :(
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15:42<Wolf01>http://smartypins.withgoogle.com/ nice one
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16:20<andythenorth>I need 10k / month MNSP
16:20<andythenorth>and I can only get 5k
16:20<andythenorth>despite building about 40 new forests and connecting them :P
16:23<Taede[L]>maybe deliver goods instead of swamping the sawmill with more ingredients?
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>is there no other source of MNSP?
16:26<andythenorth>not in this economy
16:28<andythenorth>hmm bedtime
16:28<andythenorth>bye
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16:38<Eddi|zuHause>always blame the economy
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>next time he'll blame obamacare
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17:36<@planetmaker>hi ho
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18:06<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Fri Jul 04 00:00:36 2014