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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-07-06

---Logopened Sun Jul 06 00:00:37 2014
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01:17<Flygon>What's that thing where the bridges don't need heads called again?
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02:01<@Alberth>moin
02:03<Rubidium>morning
02:13<Flygon>Menta
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02:50<@planetmaker>moin
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03:59<Diablo-D3>does openttd use upnp?
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04:05<Diablo-D3>guess not
04:14<@Alberth>you guessed right
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04:51<Wolf01>moin
04:55<@Alberth>moin
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05:46<Diablo-D3>heh someone is joining my game
05:46<Diablo-D3>:D
05:46<Diablo-D3>or not
05:46<Diablo-D3>=/
05:46<@Alberth>they have to join to see what newgrfs you use, and what other settings
05:47<Diablo-D3>says downloading map took too long
05:49<@Alberth>there is some information on that at the wiki, I think in the FAQ somewhere
05:49<Diablo-D3>well its probably because I only have 1mbps up
05:51<@Alberth>use smaller map size?
05:52<@Alberth>you can pause the game on joining etc to allow new players to download
05:52<Diablo-D3>it autopauses
05:52<Diablo-D3>map size I think is only 2048x2048
05:52<@Alberth>"only" :p
05:53<V453000>XD
05:53<@Alberth>what are you doing with that space?
05:53<V453000>please tell me which player is going to use a map that large effectively
05:53<@Alberth>I would really like to see a map that actually uses it
05:54<V453000>well I did fit 5000 trains on 256x1024, they were 5 tiles long
05:54<@Alberth>1024x1024 is more than enough
05:54<V453000>so if you used the same density you would need trains 40 tiles long? :D
05:54<V453000>512x512 is optimal
05:54<Diablo-D3>I restarted as 1024x1024
05:54<V453000>512x1024 for busy 15company servers is okay, with lots of water
05:55<Diablo-D3>also, I wish I could do stuff like citybuilder on a non-server multiplayer game
05:55<V453000>gamescripts have that possibility I believe
05:55<@Alberth>euhm, non-server multiplayer???
05:56<Diablo-D3>Alberth: as in launched inside the client
05:56<@Alberth>as single player
05:57<@Alberth>you can have game scripts in single player too
05:57<Diablo-D3>Alberth: it didnt let me add them
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05:58<@Alberth>indeed, you cannot add them afterwards, you have to add it in the intro menu and start a new game
05:59<Diablo-D3>no, I tried adding them from the newgrf screen off the menu
05:59<Diablo-D3>wouldnt let me
05:59<@Alberth>it's not a newgrf :)
06:00<Diablo-D3>then where do you add them?
06:01<@Alberth>at the AI/Game Script Settings (left 2 column, 2nd entry) below the climate pictures
06:01<Diablo-D3>oh huh
06:02<@Alberth>hmm, left, 2nd entry
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06:17*Diablo-D3 has server back up
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09:59<Guest1240>oh nice incorrect password because i was using my access list.. changed isp ><
09:59<Guest1240>clever me
09:59-!-Guest1240 is now known as LadyHawk-
09:59<LadyHawk->hello all
10:00<LadyHawk->my version of OTTD seems fairly outdated, but i was wondering if there's somewhere i can view the changelog *before* i update?
10:01<LadyHawk->i have version 1.1.2 right now and interested to see what's different compared to 1.4.1
10:01<+michi_cc>LadyHawk-: How about the Changelog link at the download page?
10:01<LadyHawk->ohh found it.. didn't check that spot, figured it'd list underneath
10:01<LadyHawk->sorry for being silly, thank you :)
10:02<LadyHawk->only shows the latest change though, not full log
10:03<LadyHawk->was hoping to find a full log in the forum but didn't see it
10:03<+michi_cc>Hmm, indeed, only to the previous version. The repo has the full one though (e.g. http://vcs.openttd.org/git/?p=openttd/trunk.git;a=blob_plain;f=changelog.txt;hb=703ce3300823be238db2813b32195139c61fa47e)
10:04<LadyHawk->link doesn't seem to work
10:04<LadyHawk->got it now
10:05<+michi_cc>WFM, the last ) is not part of the link in case your client thinks so.
10:05<LadyHawk->thanks very much.. some noscript thing in firefox was messing with it
10:11-!-LadyHawk- is now known as LadyHawk
10:16<LadyHawk>hehe, doesn't seem to have the change i was hoping for
10:16<LadyHawk>(pbs exits -> prefer nearest exit)
10:17<LadyHawk>instead of 'what seems to be the most direct route to where i'm going'
10:17<LadyHawk>nearest exit, does this go where i need to go? if yes -> use it
10:24<LadyHawk>trains on a big pbs block have the habit of blocking off 7 pbs exits if it gives them the most direct route.. even if all 7 exits lead them to their required destination, they just dont care about exiting the block asap while leaving as many exits open as possible (ie by taking the nearest exit upon entering the block)
10:25<LadyHawk>only so much exit placement you can do to influence the train's behaviour.. the location of where the train needs to go cannot be changed
10:25<@Alberth>use a waypoint?
10:26<LadyHawk>the scenarios i built wouldn't work with waypoints.. it's usually cramming 150ish trains on 2 massive stations with raw material transport
10:26<LadyHawk>so 20-25 tracks merging to about 2-3 in stages to stop blockups
10:27<LadyHawk>one trip the train could be in the far left hand side of the station
10:27<LadyHawk>the next trip, the other side
10:27<LadyHawk>dynamic
10:27<@Alberth>ah, right. Indeed, waypoint is useless then
10:28<LadyHawk>and since all tracks are connected to the same 2 stations.. it's a little silly a train decides to not pick the nearest exit of a block... but for what i understood, pbs isn't easy to code with the train behaviours
10:28<LadyHawk>hehe
10:28<LadyHawk>so i just check for changes every now and then :)
10:29<Taede>screenshot?
10:29<LadyHawk>dont think i have a saved game with one right now, can have a look though, gimme a sec
10:30<LadyHawk>looks like i have one but doesn't describe in detail what i'm talking about right now, because i've been trying to find workarounds to the issue
10:32<LadyHawk>this one is in early game.. 76 trains mergin to 3 tracks in stages
10:33<LadyHawk>http://ladyhawk.flawlesscorruption.net/screens/ottd76trainmerger.png
10:33<LadyHawk>in that one i've been removing bits of track to limit which tracks the train can pick from upon entering the block... limiting the amount of tracks a train blocks when being silly
10:33<LadyHawk>but i shouldn't really have to do that
10:34<LadyHawk>entering the merger block.. i try to give a train 2 options to merge into
10:34<LadyHawk>but i cant cuz of its behaviour blocking too many exits
10:34<LadyHawk>i used to build pbs blocks exiting the big stations but stopped doing that alltogether to work around the issue
10:34<LadyHawk>instead.. stage mergers
10:35<Taede>have you tried removing the last 3 blocksignals right after each junctionblock?
10:35<@Alberth>and having less signals
10:35<LadyHawk>so the trains would have to reserve a longer path?
10:35<Taede>and that too
10:36<LadyHawk>the longer path a train needs to reserve.. the longer the distance the followup train needs
10:36<LadyHawk>leading to blockages
10:36<Taede>so the train reserve enough tiles to be able to pass the junction without blocking it
10:36<Taede>before it hits another red
10:36<Taede>yes, but the train has 2-3 possibilities already
10:36<@Alberth>look-ahead stops after a number of signals, less signals == more look-ahead
10:37<Taede>if none of them are free, it shouldnt try to cross anyway
10:37<Taede>or it will block the junction
10:37<LadyHawk>i've been playing with the lookahead settings and set it to the bare minimum for the trains to function
10:37<LadyHawk>so trains crawl further up eachothers bums allowing more trains on the track
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10:38<Taede>you dont want more than 1 signal every other tile though
10:38<LadyHawk>trains stop if they dont see a free path, but if the track layout allows them to block 4 exits when the track ahead is open to them, they will do so
10:38<@Alberth>any junction does not have a signal, thus trains must stay >= 2 tiles away from eachother
10:38<Taede>because if you place every tile, like you did in that screen, anytime theres a junction there's a larger than usual gap
10:38<LadyHawk>hm
10:38<Taede>causing any following train to stop
10:39<@Alberth>thus 2 block signalling is the smallest sane length
10:39<LadyHawk>Taede you're making a good point there
10:39<Taede>even on coop signals are put at every other tile as much as possible
10:39<LadyHawk>signal distance to be the same as the largest block
10:40<@Alberth>you can have longer block, but you have to duplicate the block then
10:40<LadyHawk>ya
10:40<LadyHawk>bigger block = less train capacity on track
10:41<LadyHawk>i tend to cram as many as 350 trains on setups like these heh
10:41<LadyHawk>keeps my brain going trying to find quicker solutions
10:41<LadyHawk>lol
10:41<@Alberth>woow :)
10:41<LadyHawk>it creates a challenge
10:41<Taede>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Signals <-- second half of that page explains it
10:41<Taede>also that wiki has lots of info on creating high-density networks
10:41<LadyHawk>yeah, been there, copied that
10:42<LadyHawk>but none are effective enough to have that many trains
10:42<Taede>pzg2013 managed 5000 trains
10:42<LadyHawk>with potentially a 0 stop layout
10:42<LadyHawk>other than in stations, a stopped train is a bad track imo lol
10:43<Taede>at that point, you want to look at mergers
10:43<LadyHawk>o_O
10:43<Taede>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Merging_Tracks
10:43<LadyHawk>actually that screenshot i posted shows a train in bad behaviour.. but actually works out for the train behind it *this time*
10:44<@Alberth>I think you should try playing at a coop server some time :)
10:44<Taede>you could join right now, i believe there's a new game just started
10:44<Taede>ideal time to have alook and try some things
10:45<LadyHawk>hehe
10:45<Taede>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/ProZone:Archive_-_Games_21_-_30#gameid_2013 <-- the 5k train game in question, works best with the actual revision listed
10:45<LadyHawk>i played it online once or twice but people tend to build for profits, which isn't something i focus on
10:45<LadyHawk>so i didn't like it too much because of the required pace the game took
10:46<Taede>coop tends to build to a plan, profit is just something that happens
10:47<LadyHawk>i wonder if i can even load that save without the newgrfs
10:47<LadyHawk>imma go see what happens
10:47<LadyHawk>have a peek
10:47<Taede>read http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Public_Server and join #openttdcoop, even if its just for a look
10:48<@Alberth>coop plays for making a nice network (upto "insane") :)
10:48<@Alberth>insane in a good way :)
10:48<Taede>hehe
10:49<LadyHawk>boo gotta update.. my laziness has been defeated
10:49*LadyHawk downloads latest version
10:50<Taede>the wiki entry contains a link to the version which works best with that game
10:51*LadyHawk downloads newgrfs
10:51<LadyHawk>and one file cant be found
10:51<LadyHawk>so can't load the game
10:51<LadyHawk>hm
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10:52<@Alberth>you may want to discuss that at #openttdcoop
10:52<Taede>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/GRF
10:52<Taede>but yeah, #openttdcoop
10:52<LadyHawk>thanks
10:53<@Alberth>have fun :)
10:53<LadyHawk>will do once i find that file
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12:55<DigitalFox>Afternoon :)
12:59<DigitalFox>I'm trying to decode a NFO 32bpp GRF using GRFcodec 6.0.4 (also tried 6.0.3 just in case) and after it decodes the nfo it crashes when decoding the PNG's files with the error "Decoding: terminate called after throwing an instance of 'std::bad_alloc' what <>: std::bad_alloc"
13:00<DigitalFox>It's a massive 150MB GRF so I'm pushing my luck, but it should work right?
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13:22<@Alberth>that's compressed size iirc
13:22<@Alberth>while grfcodec will expand to uncompressed size in order to create the output file
13:23<@Alberth>I don't know how badly it explodes :p
13:23<DigitalFox>yeah :(
13:23<@Alberth>wouldn't it be easier to find source code from somewhere?
13:24<DigitalFox>Well yes and no. I know where the project is, at coop. I can access the images but how to download all of them if the there is no sourcode.zip available?
13:25<@Alberth>clone the repo
13:25<DigitalFox>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/32bpp-ez-build/repository/show/base/sprites
13:26<@Alberth>oh, it has .htgtags, so yeah, you can make a clone with mercurial (hg)
13:27<DigitalFox>Good thinking :0
13:27<@Alberth>I only use repos :p
13:30<+michi_cc>DigitalFox: The -h option for grfcodec might also help as by default it will try to decode everything into a single huge PNG.
13:40<DigitalFox>michi_cc: Thanks, but I've already cloned the repo :)
13:40<DigitalFox>Alberth: You're a genius :0
13:40<@Alberth>:O
13:40<@Alberth>if it was that easy to be a genius :D
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13:41<@Alberth>but you're welcome :)
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13:44<V453000>Alberth is awesome without a doubt
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26675 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2014-07-06 17:45:41 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>estonian - 3 changes by KSiimson
13:45<@DorpsGek>luxembourgish - 16 changes by Phreeze
13:45<@DorpsGek>slovak - 1 changes by Milsa
13:46<DigitalFox>What do 32bpp masks do? I've tried with and without and didn't found any changes :\
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14:49<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes i hate my country.
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>german government vs. us government shows all the signs of an abusive relationship
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>(ones where the husband beats the wife and the wife tells herself she deserves to be treated like this)
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15:04<andythenorth>o/
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15:09<pthagnar>that's a wife with an interesting backstory...
15:13<@Alberth>\o
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15:15<@Alberth>can someone invent diagonal bridges please? http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/diagonal_bridge.png
15:15<frosch123>build a ship
15:16<Wolf01>or fill with terrain
15:17<frosch123>it's somehow on the border where i would build a bridge, bridges are boring compared to ships :)
15:19<andythenorth>I would just fill that in
15:20<andythenorth>or build an artificial island and an L-shaped pair of bridges
15:20<andythenorth>you can diagonal-drag raise/lower now :P
15:20<V453000>:DDDD
15:21<frosch123>and andy is still searching for a usecase for ships? :p
15:22<andythenorth>I am?
15:22<andythenorth>:o
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15:22<andythenorth>also
15:23<andythenorth>has anyone used Squid?
15:23<andythenorth>I’m wondering if it’s done
15:23<andythenorth>at least enough for a 0.1 release or such
15:25<@Alberth>aside from the glitch I showed a week or something ago, it seems to be working
15:27<V453000>has no wetrail
15:27<V453000>0/10
15:27<frosch123>i keep on using fish :p
15:28<andythenorth>you should try Squid
15:28<andythenorth>it has smoke
15:28<andythenorth>in the wrong place, but smoke
15:29<V453000>pfft
15:29<V453000>:P
15:30<andythenorth>something is wrong with the cargo ship capacities at the low end
15:30<andythenorth>but I can’t figure out what
15:36<Eddi|zuHause><Alberth> can someone invent diagonal bridges please? http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/diagonal_bridge.png <--- been there: http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Cottbus Transport,%2023.%20Mai%201925.png
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>gnah
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Cottbus%20Transport,%2023.%20Mai%201925.png
15:37<@Alberth>:)
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>i think that was my Cargodest game
15:42<V453000>bad feature
15:42<V453000>but yeah diagonal bridges would be nice (:
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15:44<frosch123>huh? i would have expected V to argue against diagonal bridges :p
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>i'm confused as well.
15:47<V453000>diagonal bridges just add the Option to build them
15:47<V453000>nothing taken away, is just fine
15:48<frosch123>weren't you against signals on bridges?
15:48<frosch123>and refit at stations?
15:48<frosch123>they only add the option to do stuff :)
15:51<V453000>absolutely not
15:51<V453000>why would you build a signal without bridges then
15:51<V453000>or refit depot
15:51<V453000>no reason
15:51<V453000>hence it removes something
15:52<V453000>diagonal bridges theoretically do remove "stupid L bridges with islands", but they would give so many new layout designs that I think this is ignorable :)
15:52<V453000>and since you cant cross normal bridges with diagonal bridges, it does not give a new dimension to build in, either
15:56<frosch123>they remove transfer stations and ships :p
15:59<frosch123>though i guess coop cheaters would use station walking and join the transfer stations on both sides :p
16:02<V453000>:D
16:03<V453000>ships are removed by being ships :P
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16:46<andythenorth>woot
16:47<andythenorth>I won SV with 5 years left out of 100
16:47<andythenorth>pretty close
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16:47<andythenorth>frosch123: want my stats? o_O
16:53<@planetmaker>o/
16:55<frosch123>we only do ncg stats :)
16:55<frosch123>but you can start a new wiki page
16:58<andythenorth>auto-post them? :P
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16:58<andythenorth>give GS curl :P
16:59<andythenorth>security funtime
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17:19<Eddi|zuHause>just push the stats to the admin port and let something listen there
17:27<frosch123>night
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18:17<Wolf01>'night all
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---Logclosed Mon Jul 07 00:00:40 2014