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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-07-11

---Logopened Fri Jul 11 00:00:46 2014
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03:06<@planetmaker>moin
03:10<Xaroth|Work>mornin
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03:23<kero>hi
03:24<kero>please: is there any way to know the total number of industries in a game other than counting them ?
03:27<__ln__>you could make a statistical approximation by choosing random tiles on the map and checking whether that tile is occupied by an industry or not.
03:29<kero>:)
03:29<kero>Interesting concept
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07:02<kero>is it considered as normal behaviour that the number of industries in game grows over time ?
07:03<kero>(something like +25% in 20 years)
07:03<@planetmaker>that can be normal. Depends on several circumstances, though
07:04<kero>I just checked on a perfect vanilla game
07:05<@planetmaker>are the industries (all) served well?
07:05<kero>I don't like that. It is a non sense to start a game with very low industries, and see them increase
07:05<kero>In the game I checked, no one industry was served :)
07:06<kero>(i just started a game and let it go)
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07:06<@planetmaker>then I would the industry count to drop
07:06<kero>They don't.
07:06<kero>some open up, some close up. But opening are far more
07:07<@planetmaker>except power plants. They're bound to stay
07:07<kero>in a game started in 1860, I had 400 industries. 491 in 1880. Without doing anything.
07:07<@planetmaker>on a map of what size?
07:07<kero>1024*1024
07:09<kero>Shall we consider that there is a bug ? Not technically speaking, but at least in respect to what should be expected ?
07:11<kero>Maybee more interestingly: can you indicate me in which source file that kind of issues can be checked out ? :)
07:11<@planetmaker>I can't. industry* I'd assume
07:11<kero>I'll have a look.
07:12<@planetmaker>there are routines which decide on new industry placement based on current amount, 'desired' amount (overall and per industry type)
07:12<@planetmaker>and bonus for no "free" industries
07:13<kero>what do you mean by "free" industries. = served industries ?
07:14<@planetmaker>"free" as in not being served yet
07:15<@planetmaker>if everything is served, the assumption is - iirc - that more industries are needed to keep it interesting
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07:35<kero> * Try to create a random industry, during gameplay
07:35<kero>There we are.
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09:27<DigitalFox>Good Afternoon :)
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09:39<DigitalFox>Is it possible that by adding code and the sprite to a base graphics GRF like Zbase the Close Window sprite can be changed to one like for example from the biggui?
09:40<DigitalFox>Or is this something that has always to be done by a loaded GRF after the base set is loaded?
09:43<@planetmaker>sorry... what are you asking?
09:44<DigitalFox>Well if I can add the biggui close windows sprite to zbase :o
09:44<@planetmaker>you can modify the base set and provide/change the sprite there. And you can always use a NewGRF, irrespective of how the base set looks like
09:45<@planetmaker>if you say, that zbase misses a (or a few) gui sprites: that's likely true and should be fixed in zbase
09:47<DigitalFox>Right, but in BigGui the close window is defined like this:
09:47<DigitalFox>replace( 143, "sprites/gui/big_gui.png") { [ 434, 776, 15, 15, 0, 0, NOCROP] } // x for window caption
09:47<DigitalFox>But how can I tell what is the sprite number?
09:47<DigitalFox>In zbase sprite 143 is a font. Using the sprite aligner it doesn't catch it and so no number available :\
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09:58<V453000>lol, never go take a shit until you finished your current coding task
09:58<V453000>unfinished wtf = broken wtf :D
10:00<@planetmaker>DigitalFox, yes, that's actually true. The close window button is indeed the X. Which is not the best choice really. And worth a patch in OpenTTD
10:00<@planetmaker>it's also the reason the 'X' is cut when using biggui, I think
10:02<DigitalFox>I'm confused.... So you define a sprite like this -> base_graphics spr123(123, "etc...
10:03<DigitalFox>I don't get the -> replace( 143, etc... How does it know what sprite number is 143
10:07<DigitalFox>Or in other words how do you translate the 143 to a sprite number
10:08<DigitalFox>Oh crap I get it, never mind :\
10:10<DigitalFox>So the font X is the close window sprite ah ah wow :o
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10:16<DigitalFox>My confusion was that I assumed that the replacement BigGUI was doing was not on sprite 143 but somehow other sprite number and there was a conversion along the way, I never thought a font X was the sprite, thank god I don't use the default font or my X would look huge in plain text ;)
10:18<DigitalFox>Thank you, you guys are the best :)
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10:37<xintron>For oil tankers, should I transfer the cargo or just unload (for being transported by train to the refinery)?
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12:22<@Alberth>evenink
12:24<frosch123>hai
12:28<V453000>hi :)
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13:33<Wolf01>hai o/
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13:35<@Alberth>welcome
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26683 /trunk/src/lang (hebrew.txt malay.txt) (2014-07-11 17:45:27 UTC)
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<@DorpsGek>hebrew - 6 changes by oofnik
13:45<@DorpsGek>malay - 3 changes by TheITChap
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14:30<andythenorth>o/
14:35<@Alberth>hi hi
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14:39<andythenorth>where is cat?
14:41<@Alberth>hunting moo
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15:12<andythenorth>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntEjsIaGIvc
15:12<andythenorth>Mu
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15:14<frosch123>"mumu" means something else in german
15:25<andythenorth>I won’t ask
15:25<andythenorth>shall we make a train game
15:25<andythenorth>?
15:25<andythenorth>I heard they’re popular
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15:37<@Alberth>what about a city-sim?
15:37<Supercheese>A Game of Trains
15:37<Supercheese>Company managers are killed off every six years or so
15:38<@Alberth>luckily, I only build new tracks, and move existing ones
15:38-!-kero [~keikoz@37.175.29.64] has quit [Quit: kero]
15:38<@Alberth>although I play with breakdowns enabled, which is considered to be a deadly sin by some
15:39<Supercheese>not so much sin as annoyance
15:41<andythenorth>deadly sin
15:43<andythenorth>hmm
15:44<andythenorth>I was figuring out string IDs
15:47<andythenorth>probably incorrectly
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16:05<@Alberth>andythenorth: fyi, I just pushed 2 typo fixes in the FIRS readme
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16:05<andythenorth>thanks :)
16:05*andythenorth -> bed
16:05<@Alberth>gn
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16:22<V453000>Error: Using {P} without a ##plural pragma
16:22<V453000>wat :D
16:23<@planetmaker>yeah :)
16:23<@planetmaker>check eints documentation
16:24<V453000>I just removed the Ps
16:24<@Alberth>that works too :)
16:25<V453000>btw maybe 32bpp does not have to inform about pure white? :P
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16:36<V453000>how many 256-ticks does make a month? :D
16:37<V453000>25*256?
16:37<V453000>ish
16:37<@planetmaker>a day is 74 ticks
16:38<@planetmaker>the industry callback every 256 ticks is thus called 8 or 9 times. Depends
16:38<Diablo-D3>whatever happened to that day/night cycle thing?
16:38<Diablo-D3>I remember somebody working on it
16:38<V453000>right :)
16:38<V453000>strange :D
16:38<@planetmaker>people who used it got caught by epileptic ceisures and could not continue it, Diablo-D3
16:38<@planetmaker>too much blinking ;)
16:39<Diablo-D3>lol
16:39<Diablo-D3>thats another thing
16:39<Diablo-D3>why is openttd time so fast
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>"somebody working on it"... was that 10 years ago, by any chance?
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16:40<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: yeah probably
16:41<Diablo-D3>"I currently run openttd 7.1"
16:41<Diablo-D3>that post still makes me lol
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>things needed for a decent day-night cycle: (1) a 24h clock (visual only, or for timetabling). (2) a 32bpp blitter to automatically shade colours. (3) a "light mask" for sprites, which will add glowing effects
16:43<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: well, you wouldnt technically need 32bit blitter
16:43<frosch123>(4) and option to disable it
16:43<Diablo-D3>it could be done with palette modification
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>Diablo-D3: palette is fixed
16:43<frosch123>day-night and weather are the worst thing in games
16:43<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: cant be rotated while running?
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16:43<Eddi|zuHause>Diablo-D3: it could, but effect would be instant
16:43<@planetmaker>Diablo-D3, doing that in 8bpp is redrawing everything. 32bpp doing that is way less work
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>instead of gradual, which one would expect
16:44*Diablo-D3 <3s 8bit palette tricks
16:44<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, but you'd keep updating the palette to continually darken it
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>Diablo-D3: that might easily become TMWFTLB
16:45<Diablo-D3>yeah maybe
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>and you won't have access to bloom shader and stuff for glowy effects
16:46<Diablo-D3>yeah that I wouldnt
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16:46<Diablo-D3>and we'd probably need GL blitters finally
16:46<Diablo-D3>so it'd be simple to pixel shade the glow
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>anyway. neither of these 3 things show any signs of happening in the near or medium future
16:47<Diablo-D3>actually
16:47<Diablo-D3>why isnt there just a plain GL blitter yet?
16:47<frosch123>there is night-gfx btw
16:47<Diablo-D3>software renders and then blits it to a texture and paints it on a single quad?
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>Diablo-D3: performance was suboptimal
16:47<frosch123>Diablo-D3: because GL is not suitable for ottd graphics
16:48<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: on which targets, though?
16:48<Diablo-D3>on fglrx, it will be vastly superior performance
16:48<frosch123>proof it :)
16:48<Diablo-D3>frosch123: its a known issue with fglrx, it doesnt do XAA well
16:48<Diablo-D3>so a lot of plain X11 apps are absolute shit
16:49<Diablo-D3>any sufficiently accelerated app is fine (modern gtk and qt use stuff like cairo which can hw accelerate drawing)
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>Diablo-D3: try windows first. then worry about other stuff.
16:49<Diablo-D3>and SDL, sadly, isnt sufficiently modern
16:49<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, I dont use windows
16:49<Diablo-D3>on windows its probably fine
16:49<@Alberth>proof it
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>Diablo-D3: neither do i, but that's what the majority of players use
16:50<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, it sucks when the majority of players are wrong =/
16:50<@planetmaker>why are they wrong?
16:50<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: windows.
16:50<@planetmaker>it works for them just fine
16:50<@planetmaker>why do you think that your way is right and theirs is wrong?
16:50<@Alberth>gn
16:51<@planetmaker>night, Alberth :)
16:51<Diablo-D3>well, I guess if they WANT a crashing, broken, slow computer that is a host to a multitude of viruses
16:51<Diablo-D3>windows is great
16:51<Diablo-D3>the rest of us, however, just want to get shit done
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16:52<@planetmaker>Diablo-D3, that attitude is just as bad as "how can you use anything else than windows? It's all just so complicated and has sucky user experience"
16:52<@planetmaker>modern windows (7 or 8) are actually also pretty stable. Much better than previous versions
16:53<Diablo-D3>I have 8.1 pro in a VM, Im well aware what it can do
16:53<Diablo-D3>I tried running it in xen with pci-e passthrough, and thats still a massive failtrain
16:53<Diablo-D3>thanks microsoft!
16:53<frosch123>anyway, there have been 20+ guys claiming that GL would be great. there have been 5+ patches implementing it, and they all performed terrible
16:54<frosch123>so, sorry if we do not party your suggestion :p
16:54<Diablo-D3>frosch123: depends entirely on what platform
16:54<Diablo-D3>frosch123: on windows there is no point
16:54<Diablo-D3>you're doing the equivalent on windows vista and up
16:54<Diablo-D3>pure 2D apps that cant be accelerated are drawn to a shadow buffer that uses the same methodology to accelerate drawing that on the screen
16:54<Diablo-D3>shadow buffer -> texture -> quad.
16:55<Diablo-D3>on osx, there is also no point, because SDL uses OSX's appropriate mechanism for this by default
16:55<Diablo-D3>and on foss drivers, there is no point, because they properly implement EXA.
16:55<@planetmaker>you're arguing based on wrong assumptions, Diablo-D3
16:55<Diablo-D3>its only on nvidia and fglrx it would make a difference
16:55<Diablo-D3>_now_ SDL _should_ implement a flat GL driver
16:56<Diablo-D3>and I think SDL 2.0 finally did
16:56<Diablo-D3>openttd just doesnt use SDL 2.0 yet.
16:56<@planetmaker>then write a openttd-sdl-2.0 video driver
16:56<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: is openttd on github yet?
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16:57<V453000>btw graphics people usually dont use linux, so unless you want openttd to be just code you will have to be more friendly to windoze Diablo-D3 :P
16:57<Diablo-D3>V453000: well, I think you misunderstood the point of SDL
16:57<@planetmaker>graphics people usually use mac ;)
16:57<V453000>that is usually print stuff / photo industry pm
16:57<Diablo-D3>V453000: it wraps all the graphics and sound APIs and exposes it as a single most common denominator.
16:58<V453000>3D and stuff is windows usually
16:58<Diablo-D3>V453000: SDL also exposes a GL context creation wrapper (ie, WGL, AGL, GLX, etc)
16:58<V453000>I have no idea about any of the shortcuts you just used
16:58*Diablo-D3 sighs.
16:59<frosch123>Diablo-D3: there is git.openttd.org
16:59<@planetmaker>V453000, nor do I, tbh ;) some graphics extensions, probably supported by a few graphics cards. Dunno
16:59<frosch123>ottd does not use external sites for services
16:59<Diablo-D3>V453000: summary: SDL makes my code run on all platforms because I know how to use SDL.
16:59<frosch123>openttd.org was created based on terrible experiences with sf
16:59<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: they're not extensions, they're context creation APIs
16:59<frosch123>and after that there was no reason to move
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17:00<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: GL is universal, but GL never defined a context creation API until GL 3.x
17:00<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: so you call WGL, AGL, GLX, etc to actually "make a window".
17:01<@planetmaker>and then you only solved it for linux but not for windows and osx ;)
17:02<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: uh, no?
17:02<Diablo-D3>if you use SDL as the context creation API, your GL code works on any OS supported by SDL's GL shit
17:02<Diablo-D3>which is all three of the ones we care about
17:02<@planetmaker>yeah. Unless you want to start using SDL also for windows and OSX - and find out that the overall graphics performance of OpenTTD dropped ;)
17:02<Diablo-D3>wait, openttd doesnt use sdl for windows and osx?!
17:02<@planetmaker>no
17:03<Diablo-D3>then why use sdl at all?!
17:03<@planetmaker>as I said, you base your arguments on wrong assumptions :)
17:03<Diablo-D3>the whole point of using sdl is so you write it once!
17:03<Diablo-D3>and btw, if your overall graphics performance dropped on windows and osx, you're using sdl wrong
17:03<frosch123>make it better :)
17:03<@planetmaker>yeah, make it better
17:03<Diablo-D3>but thats not unusual, a lot of people cant read the manual
17:04*Diablo-D3 used to sit in #sdl for years
17:04<frosch123>as said before, you are stating what 20 people stated before, but noone delivered
17:04<@planetmaker>you can build openttd-with-sdl on OSX. I tested it. It's aweful compared to the native driver
17:04<Diablo-D3>frosch123: I dont work on projects I use as a rule.
17:04<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: I can output 60fps at 1920x1200 on a rather shit computer running osx
17:04<Diablo-D3>on SDL
17:05<frosch123>using how many objects?
17:05<@planetmaker>1 ;)
17:05<Diablo-D3>no, Im talking raw blit performance
17:05<frosch123>well, you are talking about frames
17:05<Diablo-D3>openttd should only be doing one blit per frame anyhow
17:05<Diablo-D3>due to its use of an optimized blitter internally
17:05<frosch123>which means redrawing everything for every frame
17:05<frosch123>which is not what ottd does
17:05<frosch123>ottd does differential updated of small areas
17:06<Diablo-D3>frosch123: no, it just makes openttd wrong
17:06<Diablo-D3>differential updates is not optimal on modern hardware
17:06<Diablo-D3>hasnt been so for about a decade
17:06<frosch123>proof it :)
17:06<Diablo-D3>btw, the word is prove
17:06<frosch123>isn't that the noun?
17:07<Diablo-D3>no, proof is the noun.
17:07<Diablo-D3>afk
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17:23<@planetmaker>he's right about the proof (n) / prove (v)
17:25<frosch123>well, i wondered before typing it the first time
17:25<frosch123>but apparently decided for the other :p
17:32<V453000>hm
17:32<Wolf01>'night
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17:32<V453000>my grf compiles, but it throws an error when loading it in the game
17:32<V453000>attempt to use invalid ID (sprite 1132)
17:32<V453000>which is sone | snow tile monorail
17:32<V453000>some
17:32<V453000>what could cause that?
17:36<V453000>possible that I simply have too many sprites?
17:36<V453000>I did not even add animations yet :D
17:38<@peter1138>i think you need 16 million for that
17:38<frosch123>it's not related to "real sprites"
17:38<V453000>indeed, that is what I thought
17:38<V453000>what could it be then frosch123 ?
17:38<V453000>I did some trying and if I remove one industry, it works
17:38<frosch123>it is refering to industry/vehicle ids and simialr
17:38<V453000>any one industry
17:39<V453000>so it is not some one special industry that would break it
17:39<frosch123>maybe you missed setting the "subsitute"
17:39<frosch123>it may need to be the first thing in the "item"
17:39<V453000>substitute: 0 all of them have it
17:40<V453000>both in industry tile and in industry item
17:42<frosch123>how many industries did you define? :p
17:43<frosch123>there is a max of 64 or so
17:43<V453000>16
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17:45<V453000>hmmm yeah the last industry does not load if I just let it do its thing
17:45<V453000>coincidentally the last one is the worker yard which is most key XD
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17:57<V453000>uhmmm and accepted_cargos: [[YETI, VEHI]]; cant have 3 things?
17:57<V453000>like accepted_cargos: [[GRVL, CLAY, WOOD]]
17:57<frosch123>it can, but why do you use doulbe {{ ?
17:58<frosch123>err [[
17:58<V453000>idk I had it that way :D
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17:59<V453000>AHA
17:59<V453000>cargoid and amount
18:00<frosch123>ah, for tiles
18:00<V453000>does that mean that if I use [YETI, 1], the station needs to cover 8 tiles in order to accept stuf?
18:00<V453000>instead of 1?
18:02<frosch123>yes
18:02<V453000>quite interesting :)
18:02<frosch123>i believe firs gives all tiles acceptance 8
18:02<V453000>station would have to be closer
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18:02<frosch123>to reduce player confusion
18:02<V453000>yeah
18:02<V453000> I guess :)
18:02<frosch123>a lot of players fail to properly cover industries
18:02<V453000>aye
18:11<V453000>it works =D
18:11<V453000>the currently biggest problem is the ID error
18:11<V453000>which I have totally no clue why
18:14<frosch123>well, comment out some lines until it works, and then readd them one by one
18:14<V453000>I commented out the whole industry
18:15<V453000>I dont have a sprite for one anyway :P
18:15<frosch123>the "sprite" does not refer to graphics
18:15<frosch123>but to the source line in the nfo
18:15<V453000>aha
18:15<frosch123>in nfo source lines are called "sprite"
18:16<frosch123>it's the "crash address" if you want so :p
18:16<V453000>still the strange thing is that it does not matter which industry I comment out
18:16<V453000>sooo how do I get that line?
18:16<V453000>well the error number seems to remain the same
18:17<frosch123>@calc 64-37
18:17<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 27
18:18<frosch123>you could start ottd with "-d grf=9"
18:18<frosch123>maybe it tells you more
18:18<V453000>uhm how do I do that under windoze :D
18:18<frosch123>how do you usally start ottd?
18:18<V453000>clicking a thing? :D
18:19<frosch123>copy the icon, then edit properties
18:19<frosch123>it should have a "comand line" somewhere
18:19<frosch123>there you can add parameters
18:19<V453000>did it through command line
18:19<frosch123>i do not remember whether command line and parameters are one entry, or two though
18:19<V453000>it is loading all my grfs
18:19<V453000>shitload of them :)
18:19<frosch123>yeah, grfscan :p
18:19<V453000>yes
18:19<frosch123>only watch it when loading your test game :p
18:20<V453000>well yeah, it is just still starting the game due to it :D
18:21<V453000>guess having 72 Nuts versions with like 50k sprites each isnt helping
18:22<frosch123>maybe it's faster if you minimize the window or something
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18:24<V453000>hm XD
18:24<V453000>it doesnt like nuts
18:32<frosch123>night
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---Logclosed Sat Jul 12 00:00:47 2014