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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-07-15

---Logopened Tue Jul 15 00:00:52 2014
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03:02<Eddi|zuHause>"flight of the world champions is two hours delayed"... how is this a top news item again?
03:11<Rubidium>I'd say the only real news would be that it's delayed indefinitely due to landing in the Atlantic rather uncontrolled
03:12<V453000>the only real new is that yetis will get their home
03:13<@planetmaker>Rubidium, like AF 447? ;)
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05:21<V453000> ? :D
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05:27<Xaroth|Work>lol V453000
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09:51<@peter1138>We would like you to be the first to know of an exciting update to This week, Ohloh will be changing its name to the Black Duck Open Hub.
09:51<@peter1138>Oh really...
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13:12<frosch123> <- planetmaker: btw. would you like to abuse your powers and add as alternative to svn
13:12<frosch123>imo artists are more likely to have an hg client :p
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13:16<@planetmaker>like that?
13:17<frosch123>the "Source?" slighly lower is somewhat redundant
13:17<frosch123>no idea what's that about
13:19<@planetmaker>well :)
13:20<@planetmaker>added that there, too
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13:39<V453000>how do I make an industry get a requirement to be in/near to a town?
13:39<V453000>got a 2X2 tile worker yard :)
13:39<@planetmaker>location check upon construction
13:39<@planetmaker>it's a callback
13:40<@planetmaker> location_check
13:40<V453000>yarr, that I saw, but how do I detect the town/distance from town?
13:41<@planetmaker>check the town_manhattan_dist or town_euclidean_dist or town_zone variable?
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13:42<V453000>ahaa! thanks! (:
13:44<frosch123>the default industries know two types of "near town"
13:44<frosch123>the toy shop needs to be within 15 tiles of the city center or something like that
13:44<frosch123>and the temp bank is build over houses (replacing them)
13:45<frosch123>the former fails if there are houses everywhere
13:45<frosch123>the latter fails if there are no houses :p
13:45<frosch123>i cannot remember whether there was something that works with both
13:45<@planetmaker>finding a 4x4 area of houses to replace will likely fail, too :)
13:45<frosch123>the screenshot was only 2x2, wasn't it?
13:45<V453000>I use 2x2 now :P
13:46<@planetmaker>well, that might work indeed then
13:46<@planetmaker>replacing a banking tower by a yeti hut :P
13:46<V453000>I think I want the toy shop approach I guess
13:46<@planetmaker>is that an industry or a house, technically, V453000 ?
13:46<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> finding a 4x4 area of houses to replace will likely fail, too :) <-- well, if there are 4 stadiums... :p
13:47<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, won't happen for 2 of the 3 possible town layouts :)
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>there are 4 different town layouts
13:47<@planetmaker>ok, so 2 of 4 :)
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>anyway... if you use the house replacement, then your industry will likely be in the center of towns, if you don't, your industry will likely be on the outskirts of towns (and the towns later grow around it)
13:49<frosch123>V453000: actually the toyshow allows both, house and non-house
13:50<frosch123>V453000: so, IND_FLAG_BUILT_NEAR_TOWN is your best try
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>rio was two days ago. today is berlin
13:50<V453000>oh :)
13:52<V453000>frosch123: that looks functional :)
13:52<V453000>the other one didnt quite seem to work for some reason, I had something wrong
13:54<V453000>hm wtf :D "town_manhattan_dist" is a function and should be called using the function call syntax
13:54<V453000>what is function call?
13:54<@planetmaker>it requires (relative) coordinates
13:55<V453000>that works indeed (:
13:55<@planetmaker>btw, that's why it's in the section "variables that require an argument" :P
13:56<@planetmaker>s/an argument/some parameters/
13:56<V453000>too small letters XD
14:01<@planetmaker>sorry, I thought you had better eyes than your Yeti :P
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14:02<frosch123>yeah, but there is a big yeti sitting in his lap
14:02<V453000>not quite :D
14:02<frosch123>blocking the view
14:02<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26689 /extra/website (6 files in 3 dirs) (2014-07-15 18:02:30 UTC)
14:02<@DorpsGek>[website] -Fix-ish: do not switch deliberately between https and http for links
14:02<V453000>I am getting ultra lost in the whole NML page about industries :P
14:02<@DorpsGek>[website] -Update: version numbers, copyright year, sponsor links and the likes
14:04<andythenorth>V453000: I find the nfo pages useful
14:04<@planetmaker>V453000, how can it be made better? (honest question)
14:04<@planetmaker>andythenorth, that page doesn't explain callbacks ;)
14:04<V453000>planetmaker: I think it is written well
14:05<V453000>I am just lost in the huge amount of stuff
14:05<@planetmaker>V453000, I've the feeling, too, that it's a bit long. It's not always intuitive to find stuff. No, also not for me
14:05<@planetmaker>whom I wrote much of it :P
14:05<frosch123>planetmaker: is there a reason why industry and indtile aren't separate pages?
14:06<@planetmaker>frosch123, the reason is like "if you write an industry you need it both". But nothing else, iirc
14:06<frosch123>(except that it is the same for the way shorter airport page)
14:06<frosch123>planetmaker: well, then you should put the "grf" item on every page :p
14:07<frosch123>problem is imho, that you cannot easily tell whether you are looking at indtile or industry properties
14:07<frosch123>when looking at a big table
14:07<@planetmaker>could be made separate, I guess
14:07<frosch123>(distinguishing properties/variables/callbacks is easier)
14:08<frosch123>ah, i have 50 minutes left anyway
14:08<frosch123>i'll split it
14:08<@planetmaker>50 minutes?
14:08<@planetmaker>does little froggy have to be in bed at nine? :P
14:10<frosch123>he, that actually reminded me of something :p
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14:10<frosch123>i also had some other task to do
14:10<frosch123>won't take 50 minutes though :p
14:11*planetmaker continues with requests lib and jenkins api
14:12*andythenorth wants to speed up FIRS
14:12<andythenorth>tonight is not enough time though
14:12<andythenorth>planetmaker: would you have some time to look at the evil I did to Iron Horse makefile?
14:12<andythenorth>it’s only a line, but evil
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14:13<@planetmaker>I guess I do
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14:14<andythenorth>I’ve made an NML makefile use grfcodec
14:14<andythenorth>it works, but it’s wrong
14:15<@planetmaker>he, does iron horse use no nml at all anymore?
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14:15<@planetmaker>can you explain to me the build process?
14:16<@planetmaker>yes=no nml or yes=can explain? :P
14:16<andythenorth>python classes + templates -> nml files -> nfo files -> single nfo file -> grfcodec
14:16<andythenorth>boatloads of nml :)
14:17<andythenorth>I’m not going back to writing nfo
14:17<andythenorth>I have that T-shirt already
14:18<@planetmaker>ok... where is nml called now in that makefile when you replaced it by a call to grfcodec?
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14:19<andythenorth>L56 and so
14:19<frosch123>hmm, there are some shared parts on that page...
14:20<frosch123>splitting is not that easy :p
14:20<frosch123>common variables, common callback results
14:20<andythenorth>for the record the Makefile could probably replace 80% of the python script, but I probably won’t for IH
14:20<andythenorth>but probably will try a Makefile for FIRS
14:21<@planetmaker>if you generate the nfo already in that, then the change you made is the simplest way to adjust Makefile
14:21<@planetmaker>no need to make it more complicated
14:22<andythenorth>it doesn’t break anything particularly?
14:22<@planetmaker>not that I'm aware of
14:22<andythenorth>I think I throw away a lot of the effort around things like nml version?
14:22<@planetmaker>well, yes. you do that by calling nml in the python script
14:22<@planetmaker>but on the other hand: all those nml version checks mostly are not needed
14:23<@planetmaker>so... do you care as long as it works with nml tip?
14:23<andythenorth>I’m happy if it works with nml tip :)
14:23<andythenorth>it has a few edge cases if the compile fails on the first run
14:24<@Alberth>let's hope nml tip itself works too :p
14:25<@planetmaker>andythenorth, what *might* also work: use the default makefile, and re-define the NML and NML_FLAGS variables to "grfcodec" and "-e -s" or whatever :)
14:25<@planetmaker>but that might be more confusing than helpful
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14:26<Wolf01>hi hi
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14:37<@planetmaker>andythenorth, anyhow, in summary, I'd leave the file like that. Unless the should be replaced (in parts)
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14:46<andythenorth>crashy mac is crashy
14:48<@planetmaker>it is. What I just said before the crash: leave the Makefile as-is. Unless you really want to de-compose the file into a pure and a Makfile part
14:53<frosch123>V453000: i hope the page is shorter now
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15:22<Phreeze>when i set speed of a waggon according to the current year, what unit must i use ?
15:22<Phreeze>switch(FEAT_TRAINS, SELF,sw_wegmann_speed,current_year) {
15:22<Phreeze>1965 .. 1980: 120 km/h;
15:23<Phreeze>is meh -> km/h not recognized
15:25<@peter1138>Don't change variables based on current year.
15:26<Phreeze>so i have to create the wagon twice ? that's lame
15:26<V453000>idk I always used :120; without km/h
15:26<V453000>omfg wagon speed limits XD
15:26<Diablo-D3>Phreeze: no, dont do wagon speed limits
15:27<Diablo-D3>its fucking annoying
15:27<frosch123>changing vehicle properties while they are on the tracks, desyncs
15:27<Diablo-D3>its one of the things I hate about 2cc
15:27<Diablo-D3>I like all the engines, but having multiple types of the same wagon is a pita
15:27<Diablo-D3>especially when most of them are never used because most people start in the 40s/50s/60s
15:28<@planetmaker>changing vehicle stats without refit sucks big time anyway
15:28<@planetmaker>and time updates with different stats kills autoreplace. Thus a BAD FEATURE. Use a new vehicleID instead
15:28<@peter1138>I assume he only considered new vehicles, but that's not how it works.
15:29<Diablo-D3>you know what we need?
15:29<Diablo-D3>a 2cc-like grf that just does wagons
15:29<Diablo-D3>so everyone can use one standardized firs/whatever compatible wagon set
15:29<V453000>go use nuts? :D
15:29<V453000>has all kinds of cargoes for wagons
15:30<Diablo-D3>nuts isnt realistic
15:30<V453000> /even yeti :D
15:30<V453000>no it indeed isnt
15:30<V453000>wagon speed limits are
15:30<Diablo-D3>wagon speed limits "are"
15:30<Diablo-D3>but openttd cant handle them
15:30<Diablo-D3>not in any way I've seen
15:30<Diablo-D3>like, the way high speed pax rail in some grfs do it, its insane
15:30<@peter1138>Handles them fine as far as I can see.
15:31<Diablo-D3>you have a special pax wagon thats really coded as an engine
15:31<Diablo-D3>and it does all the proper shit that way
15:31<Diablo-D3>but its a massive hack
15:31<Phreeze>without units works ;) could have tried before...
15:32<@peter1138>Diablo-D3, maybe you refer to a specific set, but that is not necessary
15:32<Phreeze>i DO wagon limits, cause i want realistic values
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15:32<Diablo-D3>peter1138: Ive seen multiple ones do it
15:32<V453000>it will desync regardless Phreeze
15:32<Phreeze>it makes no sense putting a 1890 wagon onto an engine that runs 200
15:32<@peter1138>Phreeze, still, don't use current year like that.
15:32<Diablo-D3>Phreeze: no, it doesnt make sense but
15:32<Phreeze>why not ?
15:32<@peter1138>20:27 < frosch123> changing vehicle properties while they are on the tracks, desyncs
15:32<Diablo-D3>wagons should be able to change themselves based on the engine
15:34<@peter1138>I've never seen any set use engines for passenger wagons.
15:34<@planetmaker>Diablo-D3, no point to bitch about wagon speed limits. Just disable them, if you don't like them
15:34<V453000>peter1138: I am assuming he means powered wagons
15:34<Diablo-D3>peter1138: look at 2cc
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15:34<Phreeze>testing it with cheat, works
15:34<Diablo-D3>pretty sure thats how its doing it
15:34<@peter1138>Phreeze, test it with multiplayer
15:34<@peter1138>Phreeze, we DO know what we're talking about
15:35<@planetmaker>unbelievable, peter1138 ;)
15:35<Phreeze>-.- k i'll do 2 wagons then
15:35<Diablo-D3>can grf wagons check engines in the train?
15:35<@peter1138>You can, for example, do it on service date.
15:38<@peter1138>Diablo-D3, I think, but it's logical to get the head engine to do the checks.
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15:39<Diablo-D3>peter1138: yeah, but can the head engine change details about wagons?
15:39<Diablo-D3>like, speed limit, cargo capacity, etc?
15:40<V453000>yes, wagons can check which engine they are attached to, and adapt accordingly
15:40<V453000>[nuts does that :P]
15:41<Diablo-D3>so wouldnt that be an easier way of handling it instead of wagon version spam?
15:41<@peter1138>Trick with wagon speed limits. They don't apply if your wagon has a graphic override for the lead engine.
15:41<Diablo-D3>peter1138: thats not really an issue
15:41<Diablo-D3>if it is engine aware, it would just adapt normally
15:42<Diablo-D3>since a wagon obviously cant go faster than it's engine anyhw
15:42<@peter1138>It means wagon speed limits don't apply to your high-speed trains with fancy graphics...
15:42<Diablo-D3>see above.
15:42<@peter1138>Sure, but it's better to just not have to code anything extra like that.
15:43<Diablo-D3>true, but how else would you handle it without doing multiple wagon versions?
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15:45<Diablo-D3>peter1138: seriously, I just want interesting gameplay that isnt annoying
15:45<@peter1138>20:42 <@peter1138> It means wagon speed limits don't apply to your high-speed trains with fancy graphics...
15:45<@peter1138>So yeah...
15:45<Diablo-D3>yes but
15:45<Diablo-D3>[03:42:24] <Diablo-D3> since a wagon obviously cant go faster than it's engine anyhw
15:46<Diablo-D3>okay, I have a wagon rated for 200mph, and an engine that goes 150
15:46<@peter1138>You don't make any sense, and you want things to be complex and simple at the same time.
15:46<Diablo-D3>the wagon isnt going to go 200mph
15:46<@peter1138>Yes, so?
15:46<Diablo-D3>so the bug where wagon speed limits not applying isnt the biggest issue
15:46<Diablo-D3>or really an issue at all
15:47<@peter1138>It's not a bug.
15:47<Diablo-D3>because the wagon can change what it is depending on the engine
15:47<Diablo-D3>ergo, number of people, weight, graphic look, etc
15:47<@planetmaker>congratulations, you found out about a 5-year-old game feature, Diablo-D3 ;)
15:47<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: no, Ive been aware of what grfs can do for awhile now
15:48<@peter1138>So yeah, we're just left with the "omg it's annoying and complex and too simple" complaint which is bogus.
15:48<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: we're discussing on the sin of grfs having multiple versions of the same wagon
15:48<Diablo-D3>peter1138: its not bogus, it just means you're incorrectly trying to simplify the problem
15:48<V453000>while we should be discussion how it is idiotic to have wagon speed limits
15:48<Diablo-D3>peter1138: complexity isn't a sin, being annoying is.
15:48<V453000>discussing* (:
15:48<Diablo-D3>V453000: I agree its idiotic
15:48<Diablo-D3>but its idiotic to have multiple versions of the same wagon too
15:49<V453000>not "too"
15:49<V453000>no reason to do it if you dont have wagon speed limits
15:49<@planetmaker>multiple versions: no. If it's a better wagon, it's a separate one. speed limits for wagons need no discussion as everyone can choose what he likes. Whatever the grf says
15:50<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: yeah, but the reason to have wagon versions is to deal with how real world wagons got better
15:50<Diablo-D3>so the wagon generation should match the engine generation
15:50<@planetmaker>that argument fails to work
15:50<V453000>you Dont need to deal with how real world works XD
15:50<Diablo-D3>V453000: this is true
15:50<V453000>but yeah enjoy realism
15:50<Diablo-D3>but people keep wanting to do it for some damned reason
15:51<Diablo-D3>so wagons changing look and changing stats in response to engine is fine with me
15:51<@peter1138>Some people just want to treat it as a virtual train set, not an economy game.
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15:51<Diablo-D3>well, that'd be fine but
15:52<@peter1138>Speaking of which.
15:52<Diablo-D3>openttd doesnt have a sandbox mode
15:52<@peter1138>OpenTTD IS sandbox...
15:52<Diablo-D3>as in, no money
15:52<@peter1138>Eh, just cheat yourself some.
15:52<Diablo-D3>are there servers that allow cheating?
15:53<V453000>just have low prices?
15:53<V453000>== no money
15:53<Diablo-D3>V453000: true
15:53<Diablo-D3>but having that sorta gets boring
15:53<V453000>it isnt realistic though
15:53<V453000>you cant play like that
15:53<Diablo-D3>theres no goal
15:53<V453000>openttd doesnt have a goal...
15:53<Diablo-D3>like, I like the combination of options and grfs Im doing now
15:53<V453000>Especially not money-related
15:53<Diablo-D3>its hard to even start with a train
15:54<Diablo-D3>you have to do a lot of vehicle play too
15:54<V453000>that alone is retarded, making money is primitive, you transport far enough to make profit, or you dont
15:54<V453000>which is why money is about nothing
15:54<__ln__>Diablo-D3: you mean "it's"
15:54<__ln__>V453000: you mean "don't"
15:54<V453000>no I dont
15:54<Diablo-D3>programmers prefer not to use '.
15:55<Diablo-D3>you end up with unmatched single quotes.
15:55<@planetmaker>hackors do. Real programmers prefer exact and correct language
15:55<@Alberth>I don't like using dont
15:55<Diablo-D3>lol planetmaker thinks he knows real programmers
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15:56<__ln__>Diablo-D3: no you won't if you plan your phrases so that there's a closing quote. <-- see
15:56<Diablo-D3>V453000: but yes, there CAN be goals
15:56<V453000>czech keyboard has no intelligent way to use the apostrophe and I do not like using the english one
15:56<V453000>so dont is quite fine :P
15:56<Diablo-D3>V453000: some servers do them
15:56<V453000>Diablo-D3: which doesnt make them less primitive than the rest :)
15:56<Diablo-D3>V453000: I actually like the goal servers, it gives openttd a point
15:57<Phreeze>done the wagons, woop
15:57<@Alberth>V453000 uses his own goals, transport everything on the map, no need for a goal script :)
15:58<Diablo-D3>heh, if I wanted to do that
15:58<Diablo-D3>I'd figure out how to turn industry generation off completely
15:58<V453000>playing for goals is simple, there is always some easy method towards it
15:58<V453000>creating a properly working train network is where openttd has vast majority of its complexity
15:59<V453000>hence a thing that can entertain you for years
15:59<Diablo-D3>I used to do massive train networks
15:59<V453000>actively playing and developing new things
15:59<Diablo-D3>I gave up on that
15:59<Diablo-D3>its easier to just do point to point runs
15:59<Phreeze>whatis lame, are players starting with 1 huuuuuuuge train track, and then waiting
15:59<V453000>easier, definitely
15:59<Phreeze>or those spamming cities with bus-stops and airports...
16:00<Diablo-D3>heh, I spam cities with bus stops to grow them
16:00<V453000>will easier entertain your for years? building point to point tracks? probably not
16:00<Diablo-D3>V453000: well it depends on what you play
16:00<Phreeze>yeah, grow them fast, and transfer all the pax to the airport...transport them over the whole map, wait
16:00<Diablo-D3>theres a huge part of the openttd community that play nothing but goal servers
16:00<V453000>seriously if you enjoy building point-to-point tracks for a few years in a row, you are probably mentally challenged
16:01<V453000>0 progress or things to invent
16:01<Diablo-D3>well with goal servers
16:01<Diablo-D3>its not the enjoyment of doing it that is why we do it
16:01<Diablo-D3>its that we do it faster than the other players
16:01<V453000>OpenTTD is not starcraft
16:01<@Alberth>write an AI :)
16:01<@planetmaker>we should invite some sociologist or linguist. He'll enjoy this :P
16:01<Diablo-D3>V453000: why cant it be both?
16:02<V453000>and I strongly doubt any of the goal server people can build faster than the fastest people at openttdcoop
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16:02<Diablo-D3>V453000: I dunno, for me, to have openttd make sense as a fun sandbox game
16:03<V453000>because you miss the whole complexity of building a bigger network :)
16:03<Diablo-D3>maps would have to be bigger, cities would have to say 10x less population and generate 10x less population...
16:03<@Alberth>make a house grf
16:04<Diablo-D3>and the ticks to days would have to be somewhere between 5 to 25x smaller (ie, days take muuuch longer)
16:04<V453000>days dont mean anything
16:04<Diablo-D3>they do when a train trip that'd take days takes months
16:04<V453000>which does not matter, openttd has no distance scale
16:05<V453000>the train might be travelling 10 or 1000 kilometers
16:05<Diablo-D3>it has an implied (and very broken) distance scale
16:05<V453000>you cant know
16:05<V453000>it isnt broken, it works perfectly
16:05<Diablo-D3>building and road size and land tile granularity implies a scale
16:05<V453000>not exactly
16:06<@planetmaker>there's no (consistent) scale. Not even possible, Diablo-D3
16:06<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: welllllllll
16:06<Diablo-D3>it MIGHT be possible
16:06<Diablo-D3>but it'd require a fair bit of changes to openttd
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16:06<V453000>openttd is a logic game not a simulator
16:06<V453000>units are tiles, deal with it
16:07<Diablo-D3>V453000: yes but when I allow it to be a logic game
16:07<Diablo-D3>it turns into what you called starcraft
16:08<V453000>no, playing quickly is not logical, that is just button mashing and repeating the task until you do it fast
16:08<V453000>doesnt mean you use logical thinking to improve something
16:09<Diablo-D3>V453000: well no, thats the thing
16:09<Diablo-D3>I just start min-maxing every little thing
16:09<frosch123>should we do a gs about competitive fast building?
16:09<Diablo-D3>and tweak every little thing
16:09<Diablo-D3>for maximum proft
16:09<frosch123>ten days to build track from A to B
16:09<Diablo-D3>I end up not enjoying it
16:10<@planetmaker>frosch123, "subsidies+"? :)
16:10<frosch123>5 days pause, 10 days for next challenge
16:10<Diablo-D3>theres no beauty in openttd being a logic game
16:10<frosch123>planetmaker: no, i mean way shorter
16:10<Diablo-D3>btw, what license is the openttd graphics under?
16:10<@planetmaker>subsidy could be expanded. Not only service. But connection suffices. Maybe by road instead
16:10<frosch123>and, not in a way, where your main goal is to block other players :p
16:10<frosch123>that's silly
16:11<V453000>frosch123: DEATH MATCH
16:11<frosch123>Diablo-D3: there are "license" buttons everywhere in ottd
16:29<Phreeze>dont talk about licenses^^
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