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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-07-18

---Logopened Fri Jul 18 00:00:57 2014
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02:56-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!] by DorpsGek
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04:42<@planetmaker>V453000, I guess you gotta try. Just from the sprites it looks as if the animation is extremely fine-grained
04:42<@planetmaker>But there's nothing else one could do than just check whether you need each or every 2nd, 3rd, 4th of them only
04:43<@planetmaker>I only saw motion when I compared 1st to 10th or so :P
04:43<V453000>mhm :P
04:43<V453000>will see
04:43<V453000>this is for 25 fps and it was very fast in 25fps most of the time
04:43<V453000>I think using all of them and using them in like 10-ish fps would be good
04:43<@planetmaker>openttd has 30fps. No less, no more. No change
04:44<V453000>well the animation speed varies
04:45<@planetmaker>and animation can use 30, 15, 7.5, 3.75,... fps
04:45<@planetmaker>basically 30 / 2^n
04:45<V453000>15 is fine then
04:46<@planetmaker>in even more detail: (1000/30) / 2^n
04:46<V453000>128/15 is a nice 8 seconds
04:46<V453000>or so
04:47<V453000>can use 30 for some industries producing insanely fast, and 7.5 to start with
04:47<V453000>0 for unserviced ones? :P
04:48<V453000>unserviced has 0 production so that should work :D
04:48<@planetmaker>basically what I tried to say: before you render everything with a zillion animation frames: try with one industry as of how many you really need
04:50<V453000>will code one tonight
04:50<V453000>and see
04:50<V453000>rendering doesnt take effort :P
04:56<@planetmaker>V453000, slower speed does not necessarily mean more frames. As you can control the duration a frame is shown. So even for slow speeds it might work with less frames than you actually rendered / pushed
04:56<@planetmaker>which makes the NewGRF less cpu-heavy to use
04:57<@planetmaker>but yeah, needs testing. I'll be curious as of the results :)
05:01<V453000>mhm :)
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06:23<@planetmaker> <-- hm, V453000, the gray stones, after compression should be smaller
06:23<@planetmaker>instead they seem to grow in size
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06:26<V453000>that wmv is probably old
06:26<V453000>check repository
06:26<V453000>I measured the volume and it is 1:1
06:26<V453000>(previously wasnt)
06:28<V453000>xcept it is in the shadow most of the time XD
06:28<V453000>but the difference should be visible
06:28<V453000>sec I will make a new wmv :P
06:29<@planetmaker>when you stamp something the volume should even shrink, not just stay the same.
06:29<LadyHawk>[18/7][11:22:42] -NickServ- This hostname matches an entry on the access list of nickname LadyHawk. You
06:29<LadyHawk>[18/7][11:22:42] -NickServ- have been automatically identified.
06:29<LadyHawk>[18/7][11:24:42] Activating Cloak:
06:29<@planetmaker>I'd assume 10% shrinkage or so
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06:30<V453000>volume of result: 1,89 m3 volume of input: 2,01 m3 :P
06:30<V453000>5% :)
06:31<@planetmaker>so, V453000 which industry is the sawmill + stone stamper?
06:31<V453000>1X, this one? :D
06:31<@planetmaker>(that's the clear disadvantage of numbering instead of naming ;) )
06:31<@planetmaker>unrememberable :P
06:31<V453000>oh you mean the name
06:31<V453000>construction yard? :P
06:31<@planetmaker>yeah 1x
06:32<@planetmaker>indeed stones are smaller there now
06:32<V453000>well once you remember that stone quarry, clay pit and forest are 1A, 1B and 1C, it isnt that bad :P
06:32<@planetmaker>video is old
06:32<@planetmaker>it's something I need to remember. That's bad ;)
06:33<@planetmaker>All I usually can remember I saw a ... pit. Or a circle saw :)
06:33<V453000>no you can remember either name, OR number :P OR both :P
06:33<V453000>OR imagez =D
06:33<V453000>and the stone should probably still be a bit smaller
06:33<@planetmaker>with an image I don#t need to remember names. With good naming it will explain what image is attached. Numbers never give that association :)
06:33<V453000>OR the rock larger
06:34<V453000>mhm :)
06:34<V453000>1X is multilingual? :P
06:34<@planetmaker>it's non-lingual
06:34<V453000>it is omni-lingual
06:34<V453000>xcept the shit with different letters :D
06:35<V453000>hm I think the input stone should be larger
06:35<@planetmaker> م1
06:38<@planetmaker>hm... translations...
06:43<@planetmaker>any chance to activate translations for yeti, V453000 ?
06:44<V453000>I wouldnt do that at least yet
06:45<@planetmaker>why not?
06:45<V453000>many strings are subject to change
06:45<@planetmaker>They are. And they would continuously adopt
06:49<V453000>will see
06:49<V453000>but you know what I think about translation
06:49<@planetmaker>and I don't see the industry and cargoe names change
06:49<@planetmaker>I do. And I totally disagree
06:49<V453000>which is fine
06:49<@planetmaker>it's also a dent in my fun playing it, tbh
06:49<@planetmaker>it's one of the things stopping it being a perfect newgrf
06:50<@planetmaker>the love to the last detail lacking for this
06:50<@planetmaker>which you have elsewhere. Which makes it hard to understand really
06:51<@planetmaker>even more so as they don't cost you *anything*
06:53<V453000>BAD FEATURE :)
06:54<@planetmaker>no. It's what makes the game popular and accessible
06:54<V453000>I meant the missing translation being a bad feature
06:55<@planetmaker>a bad feature is missing them without good reason
06:56<V453000>there is 1X 1A? :D :P
06:57<@planetmaker>doesn't translate well to Arabic, Korean, Chinese, Russian, or Thai ;)
06:57<V453000>well enough :P
06:57<@planetmaker>might actually make it unplayable as openttd might not find any font to display it all. Thus showing only rectangles
06:57<@planetmaker>or what-not
06:58<@planetmaker>thus no translations might really cause problems for non-latin character systems
06:58<@planetmaker>or at least make it look very bad due to only bad font being available
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07:05<@planetmaker>should we maybe try how it goes and looks V453000 ?
07:09<V453000>I still dont get what does anybody need translation for, 5 year olds are able to play the game without reading just as much
07:09<V453000>and I dont get how does anybody not want to learn english when they exist on the internet
07:10<__ln__>i bet there is a huge non-english internet which you and me are not aware of.
07:10<@planetmaker>many people speak less well English than you and me. And they'll be happy to understand things instead of just seeing it
07:10<V453000>those people are a bad feature
07:11<@planetmaker>no, they aren't
07:13<@planetmaker>languages shape the way we think. Different languages lead to different ways to think and look at things. It's a bonus usually
07:17<@planetmaker>and anyway, it won't change how you play the game, nor shall it. But why deny others theirs if it doesn't cost you?
07:17<@planetmaker>just because you can? That's petty then really
07:18<@planetmaker>and it probably will give you also more testers
07:18<@planetmaker>which won't be bad. In the worst case you just ignore their advice ;)
07:30<V453000>k, what does it require me to do
07:30<@planetmaker>Not much. It requires to add one or two files to the yeti repo - which I can do for you, if you like
07:31<@planetmaker>so people can translate. And the other allows the translation service to add back the translations to the repository. It's optional
07:31<V453000>+ pull before every pushint? or?
07:32<@planetmaker>it's then advisable to pull before every *commit* (not push)
07:32<@planetmaker>though it only commits max. once per day, early evening
07:32<@planetmaker>thus you know when
07:32<V453000>that is not so bad
07:32<V453000>do it then please
07:32<@planetmaker>happily will. thanks :)
07:33<V453000>yes yes pleasure on my side meh unicorns blabla cowpig
07:33<V453000> /me opens discussion whether cowpig should be translateable
07:34<@planetmaker>and... yes: should be translatable. Kuhschwein
07:35<@planetmaker>Schweinekuh would work, too. And sound better. But also closer to a swear word :P
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07:35<V453000>:D perfect
07:36<@planetmaker>the translation of pigdog is a swear word in German ;)
07:36<V453000>didnt know that
07:36<V453000>schweinhund? :D
07:36<@planetmaker> <-- there we go
07:36<@planetmaker>(so plural of pig)
07:37<V453000>so multiple pigs + 1 dog = german wtf thing
07:38<@planetmaker>not so much wtf, but a mild version version of calling someone an asshole or so
07:38<V453000>basically a person who is from the majority a pig
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07:39<V453000>might want to get an exact ratio
07:39<V453000>s0 how do I add e.g. czech translation to the shit?
07:39<@planetmaker>are you translator?
07:39<V453000>idk, am I? :D
07:40<V453000>I did manage to log in and I told it to create cs_cz
07:40<@planetmaker>no. But now. There wasn't a czech translator yet
07:40<V453000>it sez upload language file to start translation
07:40<V453000>never mind :D
07:41<@planetmaker>it says to select language, no?
07:41<V453000>all fine now
07:41<V453000>WTF this quiz is tough
07:42<V453000>I dont even know the translation for clay XD
07:42<V453000>it is just clay.
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07:42<@planetmaker>In German it's Lehm or Ton
07:42<V453000>ye, jíl or hlína
07:42<V453000>the same almost
07:43<@planetmaker>almost, yes. The granularity differs slightly
07:43<V453000>what is the .acc ?
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07:43<@planetmaker>probably cases for Czech. Dunno whether it has
07:43<V453000>big, dat :d wat
07:45<@planetmaker>oh gosh. It has a shitload of cases
07:45<V453000>oh t hat
07:45<V453000>nom voc
07:45<V453000>jesus fuck
07:45<V453000>the 7 things
07:45<@planetmaker>nom(inativ), gen(itiv), dat(iv), acc(usativ) voc(ativ) loc(ativ) ins(?) big(?) small(?)
07:45<V453000>I see
07:46<V453000>ins big small idk what is
07:46<V453000>but the other yeah
07:46<V453000>I will just fill in the first thing
07:46<@planetmaker>and obviously czech also has a shitload of genders...
07:46<@planetmaker>m, f, n, map, nmp, fp, np :P
07:47<@planetmaker>skip the cases, if you think it doesn't matter
07:47<@planetmaker>i.e. if the wording is the same
07:47<V453000>I dont think the whole translation matters, remember? :P
07:47<@planetmaker>cargoes seem to need normal, gen and big and acc
07:47<V453000>the cases almost always change the words somehow
07:47<V453000>but it is understandable without it
07:48<@planetmaker>and mail has everything in the openttd lang file ;)
07:48<V453000>is it just me or is the translation thingy giving me random strings to fill in? XD
07:49<V453000>I gues it makes more sense to pull the file and edit it locally?
07:50<@planetmaker>I don't know the order it gives you strings
07:51<V453000>hm, and every time I update some strings in english, the thingy will detect it and set them as outdated?
07:51<@planetmaker>but only the changed one
07:51<@planetmaker>and the translator will see old and new versions
07:52<@planetmaker>so s/he can decide whether a change needs translation (or e.g. is just a typo fix)
07:54<@planetmaker>STR_c2B__units_of_cargo and STR_c2B__items_of_cargo seem to be the same?
07:54<V453000>probably? :D
07:54<@planetmaker>I like the suggestion of related strings
07:54<V453000>I dont know the intended difference and this looed ok
07:54<@planetmaker>helps to keep translation uniform
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08:01<@planetmaker>hm, what's the difference between a construction yard and a worker yard, V453000 ?
08:02<V453000>1X and 4X? :P
08:02<V453000>one produces BDMT and one YETI
08:02<@planetmaker>ah. Yeti-breeding plant ;)
08:02<V453000>in CZ I translated worker yard as Pracovní Úřad which is the office you go to whne you are unemployed
08:03<@planetmaker>ok, that's a good idea
08:03<@planetmaker>I'll call it unemployment office for yetis
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08:05<@planetmaker>k... done. Now fixing the mistakes I made ;)
08:07<@planetmaker>one translation done. Sort of
08:09<V453000>99 correct =D
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08:16<V453000>how do discover that devzone thing commited the translationss?
08:16<V453000>will it say in the channel?
08:16<@planetmaker>currently it won't tell at all
08:17<@planetmaker>obviously the repository will be updated, thus if you pull, you'll get new stuff
08:18<@planetmaker>if we re-activate brot, it would tell
08:18<@planetmaker>besides a lot of other stuff it would tell :P
08:18<V453000>XD I get the meaning of a lot
08:19<@planetmaker>I don't quite yet dare to suggest to you to activate also compilation so that translators can check ingame their translation :P
08:20<@planetmaker>but a successful compile would be announced. And would then happen when there was a commit by translators ;)
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08:52<V453000>wat do now
08:57<@planetmaker>feed the yetis?
08:58<@planetmaker>or give them moaar work?
08:58<V453000>probably make their stuf move
08:58<@planetmaker>sounds like a plan
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>LadyHawk: that cloak is useless because you join channels before it's active. so everybody has your IP already
09:01<V453000>does this make sense?
09:02<@planetmaker>lines 1-9 seem valid NML
09:02<__ln__>also the url seems like a valid url
09:03<V453000>and without the -> things, is that how I would call each of thesprites?
09:03<@planetmaker>yes, you can reference them that way, yes
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09:05<V453000> this then?
09:06<@planetmaker>you also have a spriteset in 8bpp for those alternative sprites, yes?
09:06<@planetmaker>then the animation switch looks fine
09:06<V453000>8bpp has to have the animation too?
09:06<@planetmaker>of course
09:06<V453000>k I will just fake it
09:06<@planetmaker>every sprite needs to be 8bpp 1x
09:07<V453000>I will just load the same image
09:07<@planetmaker>that's fair enough to fake it :)
09:07<V453000>for now at least :>
09:07<V453000>if oldschool stuff, then oldschool without animation :P
09:07<V453000>do you think the second one in graphics{} I have there should work?
09:07<V453000>or should I just do the switch?
09:08<@planetmaker>oh, the 2nd one will work just fine the graphics switch
09:08<@planetmaker>if you have nothing else which (also) influences the choice of graphics
09:08<V453000>no, nothing else should :)
09:08<V453000>for now :D
09:09<@planetmaker>you'll still need the callbacks to decide on animation frame, of course
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09:14<LadyHawk>[18/7][13:59:02] <Eddi|zuHause> LadyHawk: that cloak is useless because you join channels before it's active. so everybody has your IP already
09:14<LadyHawk>i know
09:14<LadyHawk>i've turned it back off, i dont mind people seeing my ip
09:15<LadyHawk>it'll just tell you i'm an idle fool
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09:15<LadyHawk>aw wait it doesnt
09:15<LadyHawk>ipv4, bubble burst :(
09:16<LadyHawk>the only cloak i was really interested in is off limits..
09:17<LadyHawk>it's a vhost i tend to set everywhere i can.. comes from back when i was the lucky owner of this
09:23<V453000>so just anim_control: returning only ANIMATION_START; ?
09:23<V453000>if I wanted it all the time?
09:25<@planetmaker>yes. And anim_next_frame: CB_RESULT_NEXT_FRAME
09:25<@planetmaker>though it might jump sometimes, when animation is re-triggered
09:25<@planetmaker>and you want one value for anim_speed, too :)
09:26<@planetmaker>thugh... fine when set as property
09:26<@planetmaker>though even
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10:10<V453000>WTF it compiled :D
10:12*andythenorth is shocked
10:12<andythenorth>v wrote code :o
10:12<andythenorth>@seen pikka
10:12<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 6 days, 18 hours, 52 minutes, and 50 seconds ago: <Pikka> is there really not an option to disable airport limits yet? outrageous
10:13<andythenorth>come back pikka chu
10:13<@planetmaker>'lo andy
10:14<@planetmaker>seems FIRS gets fierce competition ;)
10:14<@planetmaker>hm... "yet I think FIRS gets fierce competition" looks even better :P
10:14<V453000>wat andy
10:15<V453000>I just copypasted shit, frosch wrote the functional part :P
10:15<V453000>3 lines ._.
10:19<andythenorth>I will raise the game for FIRS
10:19<V453000> anim_control: CB_RESULT_START_ANIMATION; anim_next_frame: CB_RESULT_NEXT_FRAME; anim_speed: 3;
10:19<V453000>should this be enough to make it permanently animate?
10:19*andythenorth thinks up ‘wtf’ for industries
10:19<andythenorth>FIRS is too boring
10:20<V453000>andythenorth: you still havent created the economy I suggested :P
10:21<V453000> animation length is total length or frame rate?
10:25<@planetmaker>V453000, yes. though maybe it needs also triggers set in the property
10:26<@planetmaker>animation length in ticks is the length per frame. As is the value in real time
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10:42<V453000>got it! :D
10:42<V453000> animation_info: [ANIMATION_LOOPING, 128]; this was missing
10:44<V453000>but I have it, one tile animates :>
10:45<V453000>12mb larger than the previous one
10:45<V453000>-> 12x16
10:45<V453000>is insane
10:46<V453000>expected, BUT my sprites overlap as they arent <> but square
10:46<V453000>so it is like 50% extra
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10:47<V453000>now to make the other 15 tiles :-D
10:58<V453000>2! :D
10:58<V453000>it is amazing already
10:58<@planetmaker>having fun, eh?
10:58<V453000>no clue about cpu
10:59<V453000>yeah :)
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11:10<Eddi|zuHause>something's weird today... first, zypper takes ages to start downloading files from the repo, and now it took me 3 tries to download a file from github
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>normal browsing is fine, though
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12:11<frosch123>V453000: don't use the "anim_speed" callback, only use the "animation_speed" property
12:11<V453000>okayz :)
12:12<frosch123>else you won't have fun with many industries
12:12<V453000>purely coincidentally, that is what I did :)
12:12<frosch123>let's say every industry tile on the map with "anim_speed" costs you the performance of one train :p
12:14<V453000>nice :D
12:15<@planetmaker>quaak :)
12:17<@planetmaker>I found late last night that the patch for the slovak language was already committed. How did you prune it from my hard disk? You must have a trojan installed on my machine ;)
12:18<@Alberth>magic bit teleportations
12:19<@planetmaker>yeah. And given the size, the bit wise equivalence only allows that assumption
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>i can has teleportation plz?
12:19<@planetmaker>sorry, not you, Eddi|zuHause ;)
12:19<@planetmaker>first some more cat pictures or so
12:20<@Alberth>\o/ cat piccies!
12:20<@Alberth>I wonder whether they are yeti resistent :p
12:21<@planetmaker> <-- probably something similar applies to yetis and cats
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12:31<frosch123>planetmaker: i was upset that you claimed to know my bookmarks
12:31<frosch123>so i tried to compensate
12:32<@planetmaker>ah. fair enough :P
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12:58<andythenorth>is that the new name for YETI!
12:58<V453000>top secret name
12:58<V453000>FIRS is now a BAD FEATURE
12:58<V453000> /evil
12:59<andythenorth>FIRS is CRAP
12:59<V453000>just could use some adjustments :P
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13:03<andythenorth>is it makefile re-writing day?
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13:12<@planetmaker>see you later
13:14<@Alberth>it's that, or parser input language rewriting :)
13:14<V453000>yeti compiling time through the roof with just one animated industry :|
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>partial compiles!
13:17<@Alberth>tasty things take time to cook :p
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13:24<V453000>still not done :|
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13:31<juzza1>V453000: looks like your source pngs are not compressed? size halved when i resaved some with full compression. might help some weird fellas who want to download and compile for themselves :P
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13:32<V453000>I have no idea how to make 3DS max compress them however
13:33<frosch123>V453000: try encoding an .nfo from nml instead
13:33<V453000>frosch123: how? :d
13:33<frosch123>it's some parameter to nmlc
13:33<frosch123>--nfo instead of --grf
13:34<V453000>:D was fast
13:35<V453000>what to do with that?
13:35<frosch123>next try whether grfcodec manages to encode it
13:35<frosch123>or whether we have to write something new :p
13:35<V453000>never worked with grfcoded
13:36<frosch123>it's a crappy tool, but the only one we have :p
13:37<frosch123>but if it also fails, we finally have a reason to write something better :)
13:37<frosch123>which i always wanted, but never really did, because it is so boring
13:38<Rubidium>but in what language?
13:38<juzza1>in what format are images stored inside grf? if compressed, does grfcodec/nmlc compress the input images?
13:38<frosch123>it's a lzw compressed bmp
13:38<V453000>ok I downloaded grfcodec
13:38<V453000>what do?
13:39<frosch123>check the nfo what paths it uses for the image files
13:39<andythenorth>partial compiles!
13:39*andythenorth rejoins
13:39<frosch123>then run grfcodec from the directory for which those paths would be valid
13:40<V453000>so I need to copy it to my YETI repository basically
13:40<frosch123>no, you just need to start it from there
13:40<V453000>like cd to YETI
13:40<V453000>and then there what
13:40<frosch123>grfcodec resolved path relative to where you started it, instead of relative to the file which references them
13:40<andythenorth>grfcodec isn’t crappy!
13:40*andythenorth loves grfcodec
13:41<frosch123>V453000: grfcodec --help :p
13:41<V453000>that doesnt do anything until I would go to the folder where I have grfcodec
13:41<frosch123>put the path in front of it
13:42<V453000>god :D
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13:42<frosch123>andythenorth: it's only good since everyone knows the weaknesses and works around them :p
13:43<andythenorth>it’s fast :P
13:43<andythenorth>the only thing that scares me about it is maintenance
13:43<frosch123>andythenorth: depending on the input data it can be very very slow
13:44<frosch123>decode zbase with it, and try reencoding it
13:44<frosch123>you can go to the pub while it does that
13:44<andythenorth>it’s fast for [limited cases]
13:44<V453000>managed to run help
13:44<V453000>sooooooo :D
13:45<frosch123>grfcodec -e -g 2 yeti.grf -c path/to/yeti.nfo
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13:45<frosch123>maybe better put the "-c" more in front though
13:45<frosch123>grfcodec -e -g 2 -c yeti.grf path/to/yeti.nfo
13:47<andythenorth>-s :P
13:48<V453000>no such file or directory ... in which directory do I need to make yeti.nfo if I want to just write YETI.nfo ? instead of path/to/
13:48<V453000>I have it in both grfcodec and YETI folders
13:48<V453000>throws error
13:49<V453000>do I just have to write there the C:/meh
13:49<frosch123>where is the nfo?
13:49<V453000>in both grfcodec and YETI folders
13:49<V453000>grfcodec folder is where I am starting the grfcodec, from the YETI folder
13:49<frosch123>actually, it's just "path/to", without the "yeti.nfo"
13:50<V453000>XD wat
13:50<frosch123>so, is the .nfo in the folder you start grfcodec from?
13:50<frosch123>then do "grfcodec -e -g 2 -c yeti.grf ."
13:50<V453000>it is doing something :D
13:50<V453000>loading sprites
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13:54<Rubidium>and now it's purring along?
13:54<V453000>it is just loading the 2096x2 sprites of death
13:55<frosch123>you can consider the loading as a progress bar :)
13:55<frosch123>loading happens in parallel to encoding
13:55<frosch123>so, once it has loaded the last one, it is done
13:55<frosch123>(well, not "parallel", but "interleaved")
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>programs should use daisy-chaining more often :p
13:57<frosch123>is that something dirty about comic fetishism?
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>no. it's what's used in theoretical computer science to run potentially infinite algorithms combined
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>do step 1 of process 1
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>do step 1 of process 2
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>do step 2 of process 1
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>do step 1 of process 3
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>do step 2 of process 2
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>do step 3 of process 1
13:58<V453000>wawaaaat Renaming yeti.grf to yeti.bak
13:58<V453000>Replacing yeti.grf with
13:58<V453000>what do :D
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>that means it's done
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>and made a backup of your previous build
13:59<frosch123>how big?
13:59<V453000>well yeah that is also what it explicitly says but where do I find it
13:59<frosch123>in the directory you are
13:59<V453000>oh cute
13:59<+glx>for a grf ?
13:59<V453000>277 more like :P
13:59<frosch123>so, what's the the extrapolation for the final one?
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>for one industry... .p
14:00<frosch123>15 times that size?
14:00<V453000>well this is one industry, theoretical final one could be 16 times as much
14:00<V453000>right now I have 5 animations
14:00<V453000>that I woud like to get there
14:00<frosch123>i fear you may break ottd :p
14:01<V453000>one or two could probably be majorly reduced
14:01<V453000>so lets say 3
14:01<frosch123>if you fill the 2GB of spritecache, animation will be sluggish :p
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but the 2GB are uncompressed?
14:01<frosch123>it's runlength-encoded
14:01<frosch123>so, not completely uncompressed
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>that only helps if you have long stretches of same colour, like transparent
14:03<frosch123>if that fails, then V may have to try differential animation
14:03<frosch123>which reuse sprites by drawing them over each other
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>aaaaanyway... "daisy chaining" makes sure that processes that actually do finish get finished in a finite time, even if some processes started earlier run indefinitely
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>basically like cantor's enumeration scheme for merging infinite sets
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14:06*andythenorth cracks knuckles
14:06<andythenorth>~64 industries to rewrite
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>multiple non-overlapping economies
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>overlapping is the wrong word
14:08<FLHerne>andythenorth: Better FIRS? :D
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>what i mean is that of two economies, neither is a subset of the other
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14:09<andythenorth>FLHerne: unchanged to the end user
14:10*andythenorth just thought of an ugly shortcut though
14:10<V453000>tried to load the grf in openttd, it works correctly, the animation is amazing :D
14:10<FLHerne>But if it's easier to develop, you can save time to slave away making more cool stuff :P
14:12<andythenorth>if I stick in a pointless action 0 for every industry, then the numeric ids will resolve
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>i'm afraid it's already way beyond this chart :p
14:12<andythenorth>which is the current problem
14:15*andythenorth tries to figure out how many compiles in a week
14:16<andythenorth>maybe about 30 across all newgrfs
14:16<andythenorth>I don’t get to work on stuff much these days
14:16<andythenorth>let’s call that 5/day
14:16<andythenorth>yeah, I’m probably at the limit for winning
14:19<andythenorth>I reckon re-writing 62 FIRS industries puts me on the wrong side
14:19*andythenorth will cheat
14:22<frosch123>do it the av9 way
14:22<frosch123>two industries is enough
14:22<frosch123>one to produce, one to processs
14:22<V453000>so I guess I will just try to code 3 animations and see what comes out of it the nfo way? :D
14:23<V453000>yeti way: all industries except one process :P
14:24<frosch123>V453000: you may need some automated image processing which makes the sprites only contain differences to a base image
14:24<V453000>yeah :|
14:24<frosch123>i believe you can save a lot of spritecache that way, when sprites are mostly transparent
14:27<V453000>well IF I had the sprites not overlap, I could save like 30% too
14:27<V453000>but since it is one image and nml takes squares from it, it overlaps a lot
14:28<V453000>which is certainly not optimal either
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14:35<Rubidium>frosch123: detecting that and performing such "optimizations" might be something useful for your new GRF codec ;)
14:36<frosch123>haha, it won't code the nfo for you?
14:37<frosch123>maybe it is just a plan by pm: make yeti require 3 tools for building, so v starts using a compile farm :p
14:39<frosch123>anyway, yet again no reason to replace grfcodec
14:40<Rubidium>but with the nfo you can deduce whether sections of (ground) sprites are overlapping and then cut them accordingly... or just always cut them to ground tile sizes
14:40<Rubidium>and you might be able to deduce which sprites are to be drawn overlapping and remove duplication from the overlapping sprites
14:41<frosch123>sounds more like something for nml
14:41<frosch123>you do not need the sprite data for that
14:41<andythenorth>V453000: do you have a mostly static background, and only small moving parts?
14:41<V453000>rather like everything moving in this case
14:42<andythenorth>so you can’t render out static sprites and animated sprites?
14:42<andythenorth>are they fully animated, or just moving position?
14:42<frosch123>hmm, i think the sprites are mostly static
14:42<frosch123>except the machinery factory maybe
14:43*andythenorth wonders if we’re pushing the limits of sprite-based blitters
14:43<frosch123>but, the rest i would claim < 10% moving pixels
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14:43<andythenorth>V453000: how long do your renders actually take?
14:43<V453000>well yeah, other than the machinery factory it is qutie fine
14:43<andythenorth>are the renders seconds or minutes?
14:43<V453000>andythenorth: generally 2-15 minutes per frame
14:43<andythenorth>you have high poliygon count?
14:43<andythenorth>loads of radiosity?
14:44<andythenorth>you’re rendering 10k frame size?
14:44<V453000>750 000 polygons in total for all 16 industries
14:44<V453000>I use displacement maps a lot, that adds a lot of time
14:44<andythenorth>is that a high poly count these days?
14:44*andythenorth is 10 years behind in CGI
14:44<V453000>idk, it mainly is for the whole scene for all industries in total
14:44<Wolf01>lol, I just received the first "wikia newsletter" and my reaction was "how about no?" -> one click unsubscribe
14:44<V453000>sooo meh
14:44<andythenorth>bin most of your polys, use simple meshes, tun off lighting effects
14:45<andythenorth>then convert ottd to 3D render
14:45<V453000>e.g. the construction factory takes 3 minutes to render now
14:45<frosch123>andythenorth: you mean, if we do not have enough space to store the texture, then also add 3d data?
14:46<andythenorth>the texture would be highly compressed
14:46<V453000>frosch123: 128 rendered frames is a bigger problem than animated 3D model probably
14:46<andythenorth>also can’t we just dump all that onto OpenGL and have the graphics card do it?
14:46<andythenorth>or whatever the modern Open GL is?
14:46<frosch123>i rather rewrite grfcodec :p
14:47<andythenorth>3D OpenTTD
14:47<andythenorth>it’s the logical conclusion
14:47<andythenorth>also with pay-to-pay DLC
14:47<andythenorth>and subways
14:47<andythenorth>but not daylength
14:47<frosch123>isn't daylength part of every pay-to-play?
14:48<andythenorth>pay money, game goes faster
14:48<andythenorth>don’t pay money, watch slow progress bars
14:48<andythenorth>so yeah
14:48<frosch123>play 5 minutes on smart phone to put house, wait 1 day for it to complete
14:48<frosch123>unless boosted with even more money :)
14:48*andythenorth considers inverse pay-to-play
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>that's kind of the opposite of what people want daylength for?
14:48<andythenorth>the train nerds just want it slower right?
14:48<andythenorth>so charge them
14:48<+glx>real time train speed
14:48<andythenorth>“pay €1 to make this progress bar stop"
14:49<frosch123>you need to pay the money equivalence of the train fuel?
14:49<frosch123>solar trains are cheaper?
14:49<+glx>engine building time
14:49<+glx>and you can build only one at the time (per depot)
14:50<+glx>(RTS style :) )
14:51<andythenorth>can I make a newgrf and sell it to the train nerds?
14:51<andythenorth>just with silly dates
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14:52<andythenorth>ship it with an openttd fork
14:52<@Alberth>patch the game :p
14:52<@Alberth>remove the date :)
14:52<@Alberth>you don't need it anyway :)
14:53<V453000>so a good thing would be to render 1 statick background, and 1 file with all moving objects?
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: sounds reasonable
14:55<V453000>I guess I then mix them in the spritelayout right
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>yes, as child sprites
14:56<FLHerne>"andythenorth wonders if we’re pushing the limits of sprite-based blitters" Does any other game with OTTD's graphical complexity still use sprite blitters?
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>opensource? maybe. commercial? no
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14:57<+glx>commercial usually use paid engines
14:57<+glx>and framework
14:58<FLHerne>What commercial things are still sprite-based? Some strange Japanese thing?
14:58<FLHerne>Mobile apps, but those aren't so fiddly
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15:07<V453000>well, for today I will just complete the 300MB newGRF
15:07<V453000>and I will try to tind out how to render the things as I need them afterwards
15:10<FLHerne>It's a strange world when addons are a couple of orders of magnitude bigger than the actual game o.O
15:13<andythenorth>plenty of sprite based iOS apps
15:13<andythenorth>dunno how they’re blitting though
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15:19<frosch123>FLHerne: consider "factorio" :)
15:20<frosch123>they decided against an established engine, since they (reasonably) doubted it would handle 100k of objects
15:20<frosch123>it uses opengl, but the source sprites are all .png
15:22<FLHerne>Compared to OTTD, it doesn't look like it does recolouring, or palette animation, or trying to sort sprites in isometric fake-3D?
15:23<frosch123>haha, ofc no recolouring and palette animation :p
15:23<frosch123>i guess it is pretty much isometric fake-3d though
15:24<frosch123>it has smooth zooming (with opengl), but no rotation (well, because sprites)
15:24<FLHerne>frosch123: The screenshots I've seen just look top-down, except individual sprites. Have they rejigged it at some point?
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15:25<frosch123>huh? i said "no rotation"
15:25<frosch123>so, always "top down"
15:26<FLHerne>I mean pure top-down, without isometric fake-3d-ness
15:27<FLHerne>Not that I've played it, I'm just looking through screenshots
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15:28<frosch123>stuff slightly overlaps, but there are no bridges
15:28<frosch123>it also uses horizontal/vertical as main directiions
15:28<frosch123>instead of diagonal like ottd
15:28<frosch123>so yes, it may be somewhat easier wrt. sorting
15:29<frosch123>FLHerne: you should watch the trailer, it's awesome :)
15:29<frosch123>correction to earlier: they added recoloring this week :p
15:31<andythenorth>looks retro
15:32<andythenorth>like an amiga game
15:32<andythenorth>hmm, OS X version
15:32*andythenorth has plans though
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16:01<andythenorth>ho ho
16:01<andythenorth>Iron Horse misses all trains :)
16:01<andythenorth>partial compile not ftw
16:02*andythenorth back to reading uncommented nfo :P
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16:05<andythenorth>oopsie :o
16:05<andythenorth>copy and paste fail
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16:10*andythenorth tried to make a grf by repeating header block over and over again
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16:12<andythenorth>partial compile is awesome when it works though
16:12*andythenorth can test graphics changes much faster
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16:14<Eddi|zuHause>need a new game to obsess about :/
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16:15<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Warzone2100 is ok, except for the graphics and the AI
16:16<FLHerne>And 0ad is nice, but painfully slow
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16:17<Eddi|zuHause>i tried to play path of exile again, but it's painfully unplayable
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>boss appears, boss strikes, screen freezes 5 seconds to load the hit animation, and you're lying dead on the ground
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>have i mentioned that i don't have any reflexes for this kind of game?
16:20<andythenorth>nah doom is easy
16:20<andythenorth>you’re reflexes can’t be much worse than mine
16:20<andythenorth>anyway, /me biab
16:20<andythenorth>or bed
16:20<FLHerne>Assaultcube? You still need daft reflexes because of the obsessive loonies, but at least it doesn't lag
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>i played some doom a few decades ago
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16:21<Eddi|zuHause>i generally don't like that kind of genre
16:23<FLHerne>Minecraft? Commercial, but still awesome :D
16:24<FLHerne>SimSig is kind of fun, in a rail-enthusiast-obsessive kind of way
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16:36<V453000>come on tell me I am awesome linux code madmen
16:41<@Alberth>.BAT files aren't that expressive compared to real unix shell scripts, but it's a good step towards using a computer in the way it is intended
16:41<@Alberth>so YAY !
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>is the windows command line still in the dos 6 age?
16:44<frosch123>we will get him there :)
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16:44<frosch123>is there a difference between dos 6 and dos 3?
16:45<@Alberth>it's twice as big? or twice as slow?
16:46<frosch123>i mean wrt. scripting support
16:46<V453000>hm, how do I make the industry animate only when producing?
16:46<V453000>animation_triggers: bitmask(ANIM_TRIGGER_INDTILE_DISTRIBUTES_CARGO);
16:46<V453000>added this into properties
16:46<V453000>wrong? :D
16:46<frosch123>didn't you use the "next_frame" callback?
16:46<V453000>it animates all the time apparently
16:47<V453000>I did
16:47<frosch123>then, make it a switch and check whether there is cargo waiting
16:47<V453000> graphics { default: industry_3X_33_spritelayout; anim_control: CB_RESULT_START_ANIMATION; anim_next_frame: CB_RESULT_NEXT_FRAME; }
16:47<frosch123>return the same frame when nothing is waiting
16:47<V453000>and remove the animation_triggers then?
16:47<frosch123>alternatively you can do complicated stuff to start/stop animation
16:47<frosch123>which is better wrt. performance
16:48<V453000>I just thought making it animate only when producing will save some performance
16:48<frosch123>you could use ANIM_TRIGGER_INDTILE_RECEIVED_CARGO to start the animation
16:48<frosch123>and anim_next_frame to stop it
16:48<frosch123>yeah, i guess that would be best
16:49<frosch123>V453000: if you want to save performance, then you need to stop it, returning the same frame does not work then :)
16:50<V453000>how do I apply the trigger to a switch?
16:50<frosch123>set the animation trigger property to bitmask(blabla_RECEIVED_CARGO, blabla_INDUSTRY_LOOP)
16:51<frosch123>link the "anim_control" to a switch
16:51<frosch123>which checks "extra_callback_info2"
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16:52<V453000>isnt distributes_cargo better for the overtime production
16:52<V453000>guess that would require that the player is picking up the cargo which isnt guaranteed
16:52<frosch123>then make it return "start"/"stop" animation and "nothing" as default case
16:52<frosch123>V453000: i thought: start when cargo arrives, stop when cargo is empty
16:52<frosch123>no idea what you want with "distribute"
16:53<V453000>k your approach makes sense :P
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16:59<V453000>hm, the question is what does extra_callback_info2 output there :d
17:00<V453000>aka what to put to "XX" in XX: CB_RESULT...
17:00<V453000>to make the switch react to result XX
17:09<@Alberth>in callback_flags of industry tiles?
17:09<@Alberth>it says not to use those
17:09<V453000>frosch sed :D
17:10<V453000>but this is from the anim_control callback
17:10<V453000>checking for extra_info2
17:10<V453000>like, when current_date gives e.g. 1920, I dont know what extra_info2 gives
17:11<@Alberth>ah, right. I see that box :)
17:11<@Alberth>now trying to decode it :)
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17:12<@Alberth> extra_callback_info2 contains the reason to trigger the animation, see the table below <-- and pointing to at the bottom
17:13<V453000>well yeah
17:14<V453000>hm stop if cargo is empty
17:14<@Alberth>and probably more frame numbers, as you can also return a frame number
17:16<V453000>what do you mean?
17:16<@Alberth>CB_RESULT_START_ANIMATION does "respectively start the animation in its current frame" it seems, so I think you must return 0 for the first frame
17:17<@Alberth>"Return the animation frame to show, or CB_RESULT_XXX ..." <-- is says you can also return a frame number
17:18<@Alberth>so I am guessing return 0, and with anim_next_frame the next frame CB_RESULT_NEXT_FRAME or CB_RESULT_STOP_ANIMATION
17:18<@Alberth>with a few random bits if you want it randomized
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---Logclosed Sat Jul 19 00:00:59 2014