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#openttd IRC Logs for 2014-07-21

---Logopened Mon Jul 21 00:00:06 2014
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03:10<V453000>bundling 1/789 files
03:10<V453000>fun
03:10<V453000>tortoisehg getting some serious job :D
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03:15<@planetmaker>hm :)
03:17<V453000>iz it ok that I had to --force after merging with the translation allowing commit?
03:17<V453000>when pushing
03:18<@planetmaker>what? Force push?
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03:18<V453000>tortoise told me I should either merge or --force, and I did merge
03:19<@planetmaker>but if you had to force the push after the merge, you didn't merge everything
03:19<V453000>hm :|
03:19<@planetmaker>or didn't commit the merge?
03:20<V453000>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/asdffffffffffffffffffffffffff.png
03:21<V453000>I think I did
03:21<@planetmaker>ah, you merged correctly. But did not pull the latest translation changes, I think
03:21<@planetmaker>there's 3 translation commits and your log shows none
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03:22<@planetmaker>thus, when push is done, pull again and merge again. No harm done
03:22<@planetmaker>(and push again)
03:22<@planetmaker>but releaste 0.0.6 possibly which includes translations :P
03:22<@peter1138>derpaherp
03:22<V453000>alright
03:23<V453000>well it will probably keep pushing for a few hours now :P
03:23<@planetmaker>:D
03:26<V453000>but I made major progress in defining sprites
03:26<V453000>next step I will try to create only moving objects and move them over the base tiles
03:26<@planetmaker>oh :)
03:27<@planetmaker>so separating ground and animation? Or how can I understand that?
03:27<V453000>yeah
03:27<@planetmaker>sweet
03:27<V453000>so the animation is as small as possible
03:27<V453000>I managed to at least cut sprites correctly now, NML doesnt need to do it anymore
03:27<@planetmaker>not sure it's worth it, though. Except you definitely want some ground sprite definitions for your industries
03:27<V453000>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/asdffffffffffffffffffffffffff.png
03:28<V453000>eh
03:28<V453000>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=179778
03:28<V453000>it definitely is worth it
03:28<@planetmaker>If you're happy with it, fine
03:28<V453000>every small decrease in size of the animation means a lot of decrease in the total file size
03:28<@planetmaker>yeah, true
03:28<@planetmaker>and it helps with that a lot?
03:28<V453000>and I think masking out the animated objects could be 50% or more of saving
03:29<V453000>well the animation sprites will become mostly transparent
03:29<V453000>ofc depends on how much is animated, some industries will save more, some less
03:29<@planetmaker>yeah
03:29<@planetmaker>not sure about the factory :P
03:29<V453000>it still is a lot I think
03:30<V453000>one has to be careful about reflections/shadows, but still there are quite a few spaces on the buildings
03:30<V453000>but yeah, that one is definitely the least efficient in this
03:30<andythenorth>V453000: I started out drawing ‘big’ multi-tile industries
03:30<@planetmaker>well, the overlay sprites can have alpha. So shadow could be simulated by their means, too
03:30<andythenorth>now I try and make each building fit to 1 tile
03:31<andythenorth>easier to slice, easier to animate, easier to rearrange
03:31<V453000>planetmaker: yes but making reflections and affections by light are way too tedious / almost impossible to render
03:31<V453000>so it is more convenient to simply mask every tile by hand
03:31<V453000>I get that andythenorth :)
03:32<V453000>my stuff is simply not re-arrangeable, by design kind of
03:33<@planetmaker>I understand :)
03:37<V453000>lets see how good size it can get me
03:37<V453000>the bad cutting method i used before already used up like twice as much space as I use now
03:37<V453000>100MB per industry is what I originally expected
03:37<V453000>but could be better :>
03:41<andythenorth>the spritesheets are in the repo?
03:41<V453000>pushing them now
03:42<V453000>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=70646&start=40 here I wrote an example how I do it now
03:42<V453000>so the final base spritesheet is this now http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=179779
03:44<andythenorth>V453000: and there’s one of those for every frame?
03:44<V453000>exactly
03:45<andythenorth>some of the sprites are unchanged per frame?
03:45<andythenorth>you could maybe drop some
03:45<V453000>rather some sprite areas
03:46<V453000>but it is easier to mask them in after effects than remove them in the code
03:46<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/graphics/industries/cement_plant_1.png
03:46<V453000>so supplying (almost) fully transparent sprite looks like a more convenient and mainly universal solution
03:46<andythenorth>+1
03:46<V453000>:)
03:47<V453000>in total it is probably more work, but should save a lot more grfsize
03:47<V453000>e.g. tiles where half animates and half doesnt
03:47<V453000>which is like vast majority of them
03:47<andythenorth>are you also doing snow?
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03:48<V453000>MightLater(tm)
03:48<V453000>idk really
03:49<andythenorth>snow will add a lot of file size :P
03:49<V453000>if it should cause the grfsize to double, I am not so sure it is a good idea
03:49<andythenorth>but Yetis like snow so much :)
03:50<V453000>which is true :D
03:50<V453000>I dont know really :) that is one of the things I have not quite considered
03:51<V453000>well perhaps
03:52<V453000>if I just overlay some static parts with snow bits
03:52<V453000>it would look good already, without increasing the size oh so much
03:52<V453000>by not animating
03:52<V453000>so yeah, could happen :D
03:52<V453000>:P
03:54<@planetmaker>snow certainly would add a lot to the flair :)
03:54<@planetmaker>or maybe simply a ground-tile aware overlay: temperate, arctic and tropical grass, snow and desert
03:54<@planetmaker>could change small things
03:55<V453000>yeah, something like that
03:55<@planetmaker>like a small patch of grass or green growing in a hidden place. A small patch of sandy dirt or snow
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04:00<retakk>*download your program*
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04:08<retakk>it works :)
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04:26<V453000>hm, YETI does not overwrite the original cargoes, so it often happens that there is Food 2 times, original Paper, Goods etc
04:26<V453000>should I just disable_item(FEAT_CARGOES); or something?
04:26<V453000>but I guess disabling pax/mail isnt the best idea
04:27<V453000>-> better idea to remove all, and make yeti define pax/mail ont itself?
04:28<@planetmaker>just remove all but mail and pax
04:28<V453000>how do I do that?
04:28<@planetmaker>by specifying the range of cargo IDs to disable :)
04:29<@planetmaker>disable_item(feature[, first_id[, last_id]]); http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Disable_items
04:29<@planetmaker>pax and mail are the first two, thus 0 and 1
04:30<@planetmaker>I *think*. Let's look
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04:34<@planetmaker>actually FIRS does it like 'disable all' and 're-enable those we need'
04:34<@planetmaker>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/nightlies/v5307-138/firs.nml <-- search for 'disable_item'
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04:53<@planetmaker>pulling nuts takes some time :P
04:53<V453000>mhm :)
04:53<V453000>some of the psd files might be a big biggy
04:54<@planetmaker>happens
04:55<@planetmaker>and then I realise I wanted to pull yeti :P
04:56<V453000>:>
04:56<@planetmaker>omg, is your push still not complete?
04:56<V453000>no :D
04:56<V453000>I would have said
04:57<V453000>496/789
04:59<V453000>taking kind of long :P
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05:50<__ln__>in countries like .de and .nl where carrying an id with you is mandatory, is it mandatory to own an id?
05:50<Xaroth|Work>well you can't carry one if you don't own it :P
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05:50<Xaroth|Work>but in most cases a driver's license suffices as an ID
05:51<Yotson>and in NL you actually never 'own' the id... :)
05:51<Yotson>you sort of borrow it from the gov.
05:51<Yotson>well, rent actually. as you have to pay for it. lol
05:52<__ln__>yes, the cost would have been my second question.
05:52<Xaroth|Work>there has been some debate on that the past years
05:53<Xaroth|Work>about the gov not being allowed for something you -have- to have
05:53<Xaroth|Work>so the cost of an ID could then only be the cost to produce, not the administrative cost they added to it
05:53<__ln__>in .fi it's not mandatory to carry an id, and neither is it mandatory to own/possess any kind of id. for elections one can get a short-term temporary id for free, if one doesn't have any other.
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06:06<V453000>planetmaker: [command completed successfully Mon Jul 21 11:59:28 2014] :P
06:06<V453000>pushi pushi dun
06:08<@planetmaker>holy pigcow :D
06:08<V453000>trying to pull and merge the new translation things
06:08<V453000>looks like success
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06:15<@planetmaker>looks like
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06:56<retakk>narf. why cant i buy a new train. i habe enough money. but there are no available trains :(
06:58<__ln__>what year is it?
06:58<retakk>2025
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06:59<__ln__>are you using some bizarre newgrf that doesn't have trains in 2025?
06:59<retakk>i don't think so
07:01<@planetmaker>you're trying to buy them for the wrong rail type. Monorail or maglev might work
07:01<@planetmaker>normal rail expires somewhen
07:02<retakk>okay
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07:05<V453000>which is also quite fucking broken :P
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07:07<@planetmaker>Depends on view
07:07<V453000>well since there is no convenient way to replace from rail to other railtypes, it is very broken
07:08<@planetmaker>mass-convert all rail tiles?
07:08<V453000>and trains?
07:09<@planetmaker>buy new :)
07:09<V453000>...
07:09<V453000>doing that with 300+ trains is so tedious that everybody would rather start a new game
07:09<V453000>for no real reason
07:10<V453000>letting e.g. SH40 and AsiaStar not expire would make a lot of sense
07:11<@planetmaker>of course, it would
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07:13<@planetmaker>which leads us back to: what could solve it, is a default choice of NewGRFs which are active unless you change it. They could fix all these problems
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07:29<V453000>quite
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08:21<__ln__>also, it is not realistic for normal rail to expire
08:21<V453000>!!
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08:35<V453000>where is defined Industry creation types ?
08:35<V453000>I found this value IND_CREATION_PROSPECT Industry is prospected by the player
08:35<V453000>but I dont know where to set it :d
08:37<@planetmaker>it's a property
08:37<V453000>I must be blind :D
08:37<@planetmaker>well, value for a property
08:37<@planetmaker>perfectly possible :P
08:37<V453000>well yeah I get that it is avalue but I cant find the property name :D
08:39<@planetmaker> life_type basically covers that
08:39<@planetmaker>if you want it more detailed, you need to go for the construction callback and check various variables
08:39<V453000>oh
08:39<V453000>so setting life
08:39<@planetmaker>like founder_type
08:40<V453000>life_type for everything to like blackhole would do the thing?
08:40<V453000>I want everything to be prospected
08:40<@planetmaker>yeah. processing is usually allowed to be funded while the primary can be prospected (as ressources must be found)
08:40<@planetmaker>V453000, it#s a setting you can't control
08:40<@planetmaker>don't try to override the openttd setting by being a dick
08:40<V453000>wat :D
08:41<@planetmaker>:)
08:41<V453000>I just want my industries to prospect
08:41<V453000>thats all
08:41<V453000>funding everything looks weird
08:41<@planetmaker>it's an advanced setting. Start openttd and look there
08:41<@planetmaker>it's not a newgrf thing. at least by less than 50%
08:42<@planetmaker>the life_type defines what is primary and secondary. The rest is not your influence and player choice
08:42<V453000>there I obviously have it to prospect, I am assuming the problem is that I have all of my industries coded as life_type: IND_LIFE_TYPE_PROCESSING
08:42<V453000>right
08:42<V453000>that is what I needed :D
08:43<@planetmaker>players can always choose 'fund all'. Or 'fund processing, prospect primary'.
08:43<V453000>yes
08:43<@planetmaker>so just set the type correctly :)
08:43<@planetmaker>prospecting for a factory is not a good thing either imho
08:43<V453000>ye, will make factories funded
08:44<V453000>question is what technically is a factory in yeti :P
08:44<@planetmaker>:)
08:44<V453000>everything that doesnt get workers :)
08:44<@planetmaker>anything not 1*
08:44<@planetmaker>1* is primary, thus ressource extraction, iirc?
08:44<V453000>no :P
08:45<@planetmaker>any up to date scheme?
08:45<V453000>4X is worker yard -> 1A 1B 1C are mines -> 1X is the one which accepts things fromo 1A 1B 1C
08:45<V453000>so 1X is secondary :P
08:45<V453000>yeah but schemes dont have the numbering atm XD
08:45<V453000>can fix
08:45<@planetmaker>those which produce stone, wood, clay, animals, grain, fruit, uranium, ore and oil reasonably are primary
08:46<@planetmaker>all others are of type processing
08:46<@planetmaker>(not many left :P )
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08:47<V453000>yeah
08:47<V453000>well I also have worker yard as primary
08:49<@planetmaker>for that I'd argue differently to allow building yeti towns instead of scattering them too much. But well, dunno :)
08:49<V453000>there is a lot of them for the player to choose already I think
08:50<V453000>but your point makes sense too
08:50<V453000>I will leave it on prospecting for now
08:51<@planetmaker>gives the impression that yetis emerge from earth and must be found :P instead of allowing settlement programmes
08:51<@planetmaker>yeti mine :D
08:52<V453000>kayz
08:52<V453000>lets make it funded
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09:36<V453000>planetmaker: scheme. :P http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/6305/YETIscheme06-02.png
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12:52<MTsPony>Does anyone know how to change nick/rejoin channel/or reconnect irc with autopilot?
12:53<MTsPony>on a running server
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13:20<@planetmaker>you can't
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13:29<Wolf01>hello o/
13:31<Wolf01>mmmh, any svn guru to help me with a dilemma?
13:34<Wolf01>with externals in sub-sub folders (like "/foo/bar/externals"), is better to create the folders for the main project or let the externals do all the stuff as 'myexternal' => '/foo/bar/externals/myexternal'
13:35<Wolf01>that's because I get inconsistent update logs with different svn clients, but all works as expectly
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13:46<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r26698 trunk/src/lang/ukrainian.txt (2014-07-21 17:46:01 UTC)
13:46<@DorpsGek>-Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<@DorpsGek>norwegian_bokmal - 1 changes by
13:46<@DorpsGek>ukrainian - 30 changes by odisseus
13:52<V453000>32bpp bullshit moved to graphics development XD
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14:03<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26699 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2014-07-21 18:03:05 UTC)
14:03<@DorpsGek>-Fix-ish: do not crash when trying to show an error about vehicle in a NewGRF and the NewGRF was not loaded at all
14:03<@DorpsGek>Commit by rubidium :: r26700 /trunk/src/saveload (order_sl.cpp saveload.cpp) (2014-07-21 18:03:32 UTC)
14:03<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6066]: incorrect saving of order backups
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14:15<andythenorth>o/
14:22<FLHerne_>"do not crash when trying to show an error about vehicle in a NewGRF and the NewGRF was not loaded at all" Huh?
14:24<frosch123>don't worry, won't happen to normal users
14:24<frosch123>only if you do nothing nasty
14:26*FLHerne_ was wondering how the game can know about the error at all if the GRF isn't loaded
14:27<Rubidium>it's the "changing capacity" check in this case; due to the capacity being done with a callback, the capacity can (in theory) change at any moment. However, it may only change in depots (or at refits?)
14:28<Rubidium>during loading a game you can check the capacity as stored in the vehicle against the one you'd get using the normal capacity resolution methods (in case of no NewGRF -> fallback to default), and in this case the default is not equal to the actual capacity as stored in the savegame for the vehicle
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14:28<frosch123>it will also happen for short vehicles
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14:30<Rubidium>since the default vehicles do not have anything w.r.t. changing capacities, the assumption is made that the NewGRF is returning a "wrong" result
14:34<FLHerne_>And you can get that error before the grf providing the vehicle is loaded? I think I see
14:35<Rubidium>well... it's normally after the NewGRF is loaded. But in this case it is simply not loaded and will never be loaded because it is missing, and the (UI) NewGRF check is simply ignored (command line)
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14:45<andythenorth>@seen alberth
14:45<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: alberth was last seen in #openttd 22 hours, 22 minutes, and 31 seconds ago: <Alberth> gn
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16:48<@planetmaker>g'night
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17:01<andythenorth>bye
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17:11<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you didn’t suggest lambda? o_O
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: close :)
17:12<andythenorth>I have never written a lambda
17:12<andythenorth>but also bed time :P
17:12<andythenorth>bye
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17:15<Eddi|zuHause>... lambda is for when you're too lazy to write a named function
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>so there were only 3 active topics in the 32bpp forum?
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17:37<Brumi>strings bugreport: STR_CONFIG_SETTING_TERRAIN_TYPE_HELPTEXT shouldn't be '(TerraGenesis only)'
17:41<frosch123>hmm, true, i remember it being a difficulty setting
17:41<frosch123>though the mapgen gui is just as buggy, as it disabled the dropdown
17:45<frosch123>same for water amount
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17:46<Brumi>when using the original landscape generator? It doesn't disable those dropdowns for me
17:48<frosch123>hmm, it's more complicated
17:48<frosch123>it depends on climate
17:48<Brumi>yeah now I see
17:49<Brumi>but I wouldn't consider that a bug
17:49<frosch123>how insane
17:49<Brumi>sub-arctic and sub-tropical has almost fixed maps when using original generator
17:49<frosch123>well, the tooltip shall say, when the settings have no effect :p
17:49<Brumi>yeah
17:50<Brumi>so instead of 'TerraGenesis only' we should add an extra sentence describing this
17:52<frosch123>night
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17:52<Brumi>gn
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18:11<Wolf01>'night
18:11<__ln__>'night Wolf01
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19:02<MTsPony>hello all. Ive noticed a new cfg option since recent revisions, "support8bpp = no"
19:02<MTsPony>can anyone elaborate on this?
19:05<@peter1138>Modern OSes don't cater for 8bpp video modes very well.
19:06<MTsPony>does this option only apply to full screen mode?
19:08<@peter1138>I dunno what it actually does :p
19:08<MTsPony>ok lol
19:14<+glx>I think it's related to fullscreen
19:14<+glx>usually window mode uses whatever the desktop does
19:14<+glx>but I can be wrong
19:15<+glx>(and I don't want to start looking in the code)
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19:34<MTsPony>no you already did that last time, which i thank you for, cuz its working now :)
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20:01<MTsPony>Question, is there some file that dictates pathing for scripts? as soon as i copy my server to another folder in linux i get script errors
20:01<MTsPony>bg: [script] dutch:121: warning: String name 'STR_CITYBUILDER_SS_TOWN2_NAME??' does not exist in master file
20:01<MTsPony>script seems to work fine otherwise
20:24<Eddi|zuHause>mixing / vs. \ maybe?
20:28<NGC3982>\o/
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20:55<MTsPony>um.
20:56<MTsPony>im not transitioning to windows :p
20:56<MTsPony>is there anything indexed somewhere? like libs, scripts etc?
20:56<MTsPony>or does the game just bluntly read all folders to see what exists?
20:57<MTsPony>like grfs are indexed in openttd.cfg
21:01<Eddi|zuHause>there is no index. on game startup, a number of folders (described in the readme) is scanned, most notably the current working directory and the ~/.openttd directory, and all script/grf/whatever files are detected
21:02<Eddi|zuHause>what's in the openttd.cfg is not which grfs you have, but which ones should be activated in a new game
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21:03<MTsPony>kk
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---Logclosed Tue Jul 22 00:00:09 2014